/vr/ - Retro Games

>>9673665
nail on the head

>>9673661
I'm playing it right now, the jiggies take too long in this game and half of them are fetch quests. There are some fun worlds but if anyone here can unironically defend grunty industry as a 10/10 world than feel free

DK64 really is a more proper sequel to Banjo Kazooie, in terms of its gameplay. It's literally just Banjo Kazooie, but more. Banjo Tooie on the other hand has some pretty big formula changes, it's more of a Banjovania than just more of Banjo Kazooie. Whenever I marathon the games, I always do it in the order BK, DK64, and BT, because DK64 really is the middle link between the two.

Contentious debate, depending on your definition of backtracking, but DK64 arguably has less backtracking than BT. If you define backtracking as every time you change characters, than DK64 has more of it, but, the levels are more in the spirit of BK where you can basically beat the entire level in one go if you really wanted to; you could definitely do each kong's stuff in one go, just depends on how many kongs you want to do in one sitting. Even if you take a break and come back, it's still more linear because you never really get off track, you never *have* to go to another level unless you want to. There's really only two bananas in the entire game, out of 201, that are locked until later, both at the very end of the game.

BT in comparison has you start a level, pick up a few jigsaws, then you go to the next level, get a power up you needed in the last level, choose to go back to the last level and finish it off or go to another level, it's more nonlinear. Then you have paths to other levels inside the levels, jigsaws involving puzzles from one level getting completed in another level, and so on.

Note, backtracking or non-linearity are not bad things, just describing objectively the differences between the games. OP probably hates both games but he can die in a fire.

>>9673661
They wanted it to be more open without justification.
The largest level in the Banjo-kazooie by playable surface area is Freezeesy Peak with a surface area (xy not z) of 12,619 px2.
The SMALLEST area in Banjo-Tooie is 14,112 px2. With the largest area being 68,012 px2. So surely there are more things to collect, right?
Not really.
BK had:
100 notes
10 jiggies
5 Jingos
A few Mumbo heads (usually 6)
2 honeycombs
Total = 123 collectables ( 23 without notes)

BT had:
10 notes
10 jiggies
A random amount of jingos (avg 3)
1 glowbo
2 honeycombs
3 cheato pages
Total = 34 collectables (24 without notes)

So you have levels that are 2 - 6 x as large with roughly the same amount of collectables, the same walking speed, more backtracking, and more fetch quests (give me x and I'll give you a jiggy).
And you don't know how BT is worse than BK? Come on, man!

>>9673661
Learn what, nigga? DK64 sold millions and was showered with praise and rave reviews.

>>9673749
>Banjovania
commit self die

>>9673843
There are 17 notes per level in BT

>>9673749
>Banjovania
please just kill yourself.

>>9674359
Said it just to fuck with you. Grow a sense of humor nigger rimmer

>>9674375
>I said just to fuck with you
naw faggot you dont write a whole fucking essay then claim it was just to get on someone's nerves. Thats some next level retardation there do everyone a favor and lobotomize yourself

>>9673843
tooie has less things to collect but you have to work harder to get each one

>>9674389
Sure you can. The essay about the gameplay was sincere, but I like to sprinkle in terms inocculously that make me giggle and wait to see who notices and complains first

>>9674359
jokes on you for wasting your time reading all of that shit. I don't even read posts with more than three sentences.

>>9673661
DK64 is good. Banjo-Tooie is just not fun to play. I beat it once, and I'll never play it again. DK64 I always come back to.

>>9673661
Kek

>>9673843
they probably cut down on collectibles in tooie after the dk64 backlash

>>9673661
Didn't play BK, it looked like Mario but kiddier.
Didn't play DK64, are you insane? As a DKC fan it was insulting.
Played BT for no special reason. It was pure fun all the way through.

>>9673661
Tooie was fucking awesome, stfu.

Tooie was a good first play through but is not as fun on replay. The best thing it has going for it is its since of adventure, and you only get that once.

>>9673661
They did learn their lesson though. Banjo-Tooie is far less of a collectathon than DK64, and arguably even less than Banjo-Kazooie (packs of notes instead of 100 individual notes, fewer Glowbos instead of many Mumbo tokens, I think fewer Jinjos too). It's just a fun adventure game

I love Tooie but there's some shit that's kinda ridiculous. Look at all the crap you have to do for the dinosaur jiggy. For t same reward as jiggies that are just out in the open.

Anyway, for the remaster, I'd make an option to buy any move you want at any time, EXCEPT for the ones like the torpedo that are used to block map progression. Or maybe EVEN that. Not like sequence breaking would even matter if you don't have enough jiggies. You'd still have backtracking like the devs clearly wanted, but a far less insane amount.

>>9674775
you didn't need all of the mumbo tokens though

>>9674775
As others have said, the number of collectibles only looks better on paper. In game it takes much longer to collect than in BK.

I think Tooie's greatest flaw by far is almost NEVER telegraphing when a Jiggy can be solved now and when you will need to come back for it. Results in wasting time doing something you can't AND skip over things because you think you can solve them when you can. And a third problem is always being continually uncertain if you got all the first-visit Jiggies or if there are more you can still get. Not telegraphic when something needs backtracking or doesn't is a huge problem

>>9673749
>Banjovania
Show me a BK/BT mod with the bear & bird going through Castlevania 64 and then we'll talk.

But really, yeah, while I myself would say that there's maybe more than just two bananas requiring visiting later levels, I'd say you're majorly right, it's pretty easy to focus on one kong in a given level, or even focus on specific areas in a given level with all five kongs once you have them in DK64, I don't think you have to go through a lot of hoops to set things up, and even if you do (like maybe Frantic Factory, I think?), it's not that hard or a pain in the ass to do. BT, on the other hand, is easily the most difficult if not flat out obnoxious about it, depending on how one feels about. As soon as World 1, you start getting stuff that you can't complete until a visit to World 2, and it just gets harder and piles on from there, and I'd imagine it can get daunting for people if not just unfun. Further, I think you need, what only 100 out of 201 golden bananas in DK64 plus a couple of admittingly kind of hard to get special coins anyway, right? You need 70 out of 90 jiggies to fight Grunty at the end of BT, and that's a trip.

>>9674389
You have terminal autism for getting so hung up over a pormanteau

>>9674752
I had more fun playing it the second time (after not playing it for a few years) because I knew exactly which jiggies I could get first time through and which I would have to come back for later

1.Donkey Kong 64 and Banjo-Tooie were by different teams
2. Tooie is vastly better than DK64, objectively. Both in terms of being a good game and being less annoying.

I'm replaying dk64 right now and it's a TERRIBLE game. I'm repeatedly asking myself why I'm even bothering with it. Gotta at least get to fungi forest though...

>>9673665
Dunkey told me

>>9673749
Excuse me, but it's Banjo-Willy.

>>9674779
Vaguely like this this idea

>>9673661
>playing bri'ish "games"

>>9675021
OH, BANANA

>>9674867
It wouldn't have been that hard to add some dialog by Kazooie or bottles saying "Looks like we got all the jiggies we could get for now, let's continue and return later".

>>9676286
>>9674867
I had a agood solution for this like a month ago, for if they ever remake these games. Have Diamond Jiggies/Double Jiggies as a different collectable. For REGULAR Jiggies as well as Cheato Pages etc, you can always 100% get all of them on the first visit. But Diamond Jiggies are different, and ALWAYS require backtracking and will add 2 points to your total Jiggy count instead of one.

Then, just have the Diamond Jiggy either physically visible or have a character mention they will give you a diamond one. And make it so you don't HAVE to get any Diamond Jiggies to beat the game just so long as you get nearly all of the normal gold Jiggies. This fixes;

>clears up confusion; the player always knows when something needs backtracking or not
>the player doesn't HAVE to backtrack to beat the game if they really don't want to (meaning you cater to normies who just wanna quickly get through the game AND the people who love complex interconnectivity, without sacrificing either gameplay style)
>since diamond ones are a different collectable in the menu totals list, the player always knows if there is more they can accomplish right now or not
>players who take the time and effort to backtrack are double-rewarded for the extra effort it took, rather than just be a given a normal Jiggy for an overly-complex task

The fact backtracking is now voluntarily also gives them more freedom to make some Diamond Jiggies way harder to obtain, which is what the people who CHOOSE to backtrack actually want. No longer would you get simple backtracking like Hatching Tiptup's egg. Backtracking would be more complex and always demand a certain level of thinking or difficult execution that people who love backtracking actually want.

What are you talking about? Tooie is (mostly) better than Kazooie. Not in every aspect though, Kazooie for example is much easier to replay due to the smaller levels

>>9673712
Grunty Industries is fucking great because it's basically a Zelda dungeon/Metroid area. Fun to explore, fun to figure out where to go and do everything. Peak of the series.

>>9673665
fpbp

for 90s kids, it was:
BK is a 9/10 bare minimum
BT is 11/10 peak rareware unless you missed respawning notes in which case 9/10

that's all that matters

>>9673661
Banjo-Tooie is an amazing piece of game design.

Zoomers don't appreciate that this game is THE progenitor of translating snaking, metroidvania design into 3D. The cathedral taking you back to Firelink Shrine moment in Dark Souls 1 happens ENTIRELY because of Banjo-Tooie. Metroid Prime as a series happened ENTIRELY because of the groundwork Banjo-Tooie laid out

>But it's slow
Yes. Not all platformers need to be designed to be front to back'd in an afternoon.
>But its complicated
Yes. Thats a good thing, a giant snaking puzzle filled metroidvania OUGHT to have challenges that are involved.
>Hurr hurr Mumbo bad split pad bad
The point of Mumbo and the split pads are to make you re-traverse now familiar territory with a limited skillset that challenges your navigation abilities more intensely. There are only two instances in the ENTIRE GAME where Mumbo getting to a Mumbo pad involves little to no involved gameplay and that's Witchyworld and Jolly Roger's Lagoon.
>Cloud Cuckooland BAD Gruntys Industries BAD
Cloud Cuckooland and Gruntys Industries GOOD. Gruntys Industry is a ball-busting puzzle that's loads of fun to crack and Cloud Cuckooland is meant to be the ultimate test in navigation that both games culminate towards.
The bad one is terrydactyland, which is the worst stage in the series, but is also the only weak stage in all of Tooie. Meanwhile Bubblegloop Swamp is fucking atrocious and never gets the shit it deserves for being an awful level, and Mumbo's Mountain is boring as shit.
>Backtracking BAD
"Its bad when a youtuber hasnt told me to like it" Souls series is the defining genre of the 2010s and it hinges on backtracking. So does the acclaimed Metroid Prime series

If anything Kazooie is too simplistic. The worlds are too small to hold the set maximums and minimums for collectibles. You see "literally just a jiggy out in the open" through the first 5 levels of the game because the levels literally could not fit another challenge inside of them

>>9673843
You know a mod that makes it 100 notes and 5 jinjos again might save this game for me unironically

>>9673843
>1 glowbo
Lmao nigga you haven't even played the game.

>>9679238
I agree 100%. I just also wanna say replaying these games that Tooie rewards you for paying attention. Its like people prefer kazooie cause its mostly easy and takes 6h to beat.

>>9674359
>>9674389
Can't put a single tongue in cheek comment in an otherwise serious post or else an autistic mutt will shit his pants and start throwing the excrement at horrified onlookers. I can imagine the spastic aneurysm you will experience reading this. Be a bit less surgical you wee cunt

>>9673843
>give me x and I'll give you a jiggy
So you're just gonna openly admit you paved over fuckloads of stuff in the Tooie levels?

Tooie has plenty going on, lots of it is just tied to jiggy or level specific collection. Like finding all the bears in witchyworld or the dubloon system in Jolly Rogers.

This also overlooks investment.
100 notes that you obtain through normal level traversal, notes are a glorified proto-quest waypoint in Kazooie, they're designed to be on the main path guiding your way. Similarly a lot of Jiggies in Kazooie are just pure simplicity and fall into your lap, there's 2 jiggy in Mumbo's Mountain that are just up on slightly raised platforms, then there's opening up the turtle to do Tip Tups minigame, just OPENING THE DOOR TO A MINIGAME nets you a jiggy on top of the one you're about to receive from tiptup whereas in Tooie the puzzle with the turtle would have simply been a means to open the way to a challenge that yields a jiggy.

Tooie levels have you doing MUCH more than Kazooie levels, and have more going on as well.

>>9679446
>Its like people prefer kazooie cause its mostly easy and takes 6h to beat.
That and youtubers are the entire reason Kazooie is more popular in the 2010s onward.
In a world where the average person is plucking old games out of a list of ROMS to try with 0 financial investment it's not hard to imagine why a 6 hour romp fares better with public perception than a 40-50 hour investment. I also think Tooie clashes with peoples expectations for a 3D platformer in the modern age in a way it did not in the 90s/early 2000s

Doesn't mean Tooie is actually bad or Kazooie is actually better. But the context they exist in today definitely favors a game that's easy to front to back. For better or worse (Spoiler: it's for the worse, zoomers are ADHD menaces that refuse to admit their brains aren't well disciplined enough to handle complexity or investment).

Same reason it always comes down to: West can't stop copying the East's homework.

Back when Twilight Princess was coming out, Aonuma said in multiple interviews that they were going to have enemies grow when you came back and camp out in the areas that Link frequented most, so that the player could get a sense of progression independent from the story. INDEPENDENT. That is to say those elements that make up nonlinearity would still be there. Now, clearly this is harder to implement than to do since the game failed hard at both and even BotW still fails. But the point is this: no Westerner apparently looked at that game, read the interview and "got" past Zeldas well enough to say "let's hop on that shit!" and actually do it as far as I know. We're still in the infancy stage of gaming's relevance to society and the Occident is always looking for that next snake oil to mime from the Orient. No sequel to SM64 meant there was no crutch for Rare to use as a base.

>>9673665
Fpbp

>>9679473
>40-50 hours
Good point overall but I'd have to imagine it's really more like 15-25. 40-50 is 8 year old stumbling around until you accidentally beat the game pace.

>>9679446
They are both equally easy, but BK doesnt waste my time.
Dont get me wrong, BT is a very good game when youre playing it for the first time as an 11 yo.
However it doesnt hold up as well as BK when replaying. Simple as that.

>>9679695
BT is definitely harder. B-K has "Jiggy on slightly raised platform" and B-T swings to the exact opposite end of the spectrum where it can be a several step process just to get into Grunty's Industry and START collecting jiggies.

Just because I won't replay a 40 hour game yearly and will replay a 6 hour game yearly doesn't mean the 40 hour game was worse.

>>9679621
My estimates based off a guideless 100% run of the N64 version (no hints)

It might be a little less, but 100%ing Tooie blind is no short feat. Whereas 6 for Kazooie 100% is definitely doable although arguably pushing on "amateur speedrun" pace. I'd say a first time 100% run of Kazooie is probably closer to 7 or 8.

Tooie is 100% an attention span problem, not a game quality problem.

>>9679736
I will settle for 25-35

>>9679780
I think I can agree to that

>>9674905
>while I myself would say that there's maybe more than just two bananas requiring visiting later levels
People can check if they really want, but I'm almost sure the only ability locked bananas are just one Lanky banana in Fungi Forest, and one other in crystal caves which I think might be Tiny's.

I did forget though that you only have two characters in the first level, and four characters in the second level. So there are 20 optional bananas (15 in the first, 5 in the second) that could be collected after unlocking all five characters. This is probably the only real significant backtracking, but even so, the original point is still true because you can still 100% those kongs collectibles in one go, you don't have to wait until the fifth level or something like that to go do that optional backtrack.

>>9679734
Imo, replayability is an objective parameter to evaluate how good a game is. In that regard, theres no doubt that BK is better than BT.

>>9679871
Nah, replayability doesn't factor into the start to finish quality of a game

>>9674905
>Show me a BK/BT mod with the bear & bird going through Castlevania 64 and then we'll talk.
What games need to be approached by Mark Kurko, /vr/?

>>9679473
>new game requires you to put in a shit-ton more footwork for reward
>old game constantly rewards you for effort
>can't understand why people don't like Tooie
It's like you don't even pay attention to yourself talking.

>>9679238
based, I pretty much agree

>>9679871
I don't agree. I vastly prefer Wario Land 3, but I mostly replay Wario Land 4 due to it's just having less investment to replay.

>>9679814
Yeah, I was also thinking of saying something about the whole actually having to unlock the other Kongs thing, but really, I pretty much agree with your points.
>>9679972
...Random thought, but is there a Mari Sunshine mod? Luigi's Mansion? ...Wario World?

>>9679238
Areed. Tooie for me felt like much more of an adventure and exploration was more fun. The world just felt so big and mysterious to me as a kid. Love how the levels interconnect as well. The game has some lows but I'm not a retard who dismisses games because a level or two aren't good.

>Uh uH Uh uh. Uh uh uH uH uh. UH uh uh UH uH uh.
Uh uh uH uh Uh uh.

>>9673910
Even as a kid I knew the game was garbage

>>9675025
Jet Set Kazooie

>>9673665
>>9673684
>>9679602
>noooo your opinion does not count because some youtuber also has that opinion so you are wrong!!!!
Cope.

>>9674313
>>9674359
>>9674389
>seething this hard over a word

>>9673843
screenshotting this for future reference because it sums up why tooie feels like a slog
they just made the levels fucking gigantic and added a bunch of fetch quests and backtracking in order to ensure that kids couldn't beat the game in a weekend rental and never buy it

>>9673843
Second this.

I actually think the first half of the game is pretty manageable and fun. There is not much to backtrack to so the game still flows at a decent pace.

I remember starting to dislike the game around the circus level and getting turned off by it completely at the Hot/Cold world. Literal framerate issues because they made their own level too big. And fuck Cloud Cuckoo Land. At that point I wanted the game to just be over.

>>9679585
>We're still in the infancy stage of gaming's relevance to society
anon, gaming became mainstream approximately 25 years ago

Why do people always bump the weekly Banjo = bad! shit thread made by the same person

>>9681636
Yeah and your mom always said you were "special"

>>9673749
>Banjovania

>>9682384
Because it's fun to talk about Banjo.

>>9673661
I liked it. The gameplay was fun, and the world was entertaining. The only problem that I have with it is the abysmal frame rate. It dips into the 20s.

>>9674520
Yooka-Laylee's 2D game is unironically much better than anything Rare itself made, you should try it. The 3D one is shit though

>>9682326
>PS1 era was mainstream
Not really, adults barely played games in that era, it was mostly still kids. Adults maybe played something like Gran Turismo and that was about it.

>>9682297
I think bt sucks but that post was spot on.

>>9683721
In my personal experience back then, parent-age adults did play games but usually not on consoles. Lots of old 90s fps and racing computer games just scream dad games to me, every dad I knew including my own had at least one installed on the computer. As for people between 18-30, this probably has always been the most consistent demographic buying games. They would be buying games more often than parents, who would probably only buy a game for a holiday or birthday or other special occasion.

>>9673749
>you never *have* to go to another level unless you want to
that's not entirely true, at least if you want to 101% the game, you have to go back to the first two levels after unlocking Chunky

also
>Banjovania
I really hope this becomes a thing and memes people into making them

>>9682312
CCL stomps CCW anyday, you're insane. It's a great subversion on its flawed layout. Also
>not playing stop n swop II version

>>9683902
>>9683902
Fair enough but then those dads also played Civilization 1 so that was going on for a long time.

>>9684264
>I really hope this becomes a thing and memes people into making them
Holy shit, anon, you just made realize.

>shitton of Sonic fangames because the Sonic fandom lost trust in Sega/Sonic Team a long fucking time ago
>Wario-likes starting to become a thing probably for kinda similar reasons
>at least one Bug Fables or whatever for Paper Mario because they definitely don't trust Nintendo by this point
>Banjovania???

Has anybody besides (reads notes) Playtonic even started on such a thing as a BK-inspired game? Like I guess that would maybe be harder in some respects to do, but still, considering that the reaction to Yooka-Laylee once it came out seemed mixed from what little I remember, I'd be surprised if nobody has even thought to do it, now that you brought this up.

>>9684692
>Has anybody started a BK-inspired game
Isn't that what a hat in time was?

>>9684692
clive and wrench looks like some bootleg bk on steam

>>9684264
Yeah I forgot about that, I made another post addressing that. I think it's fair to point out, but I defend my original point because you can still beat the first two levels completely with the kongs you have, and then once you do go backtracking, you can also beat that in one go too. There are no ability locked bananas in the first two levels, only character locked bananas.

>>9684692
The cute 3D platformer revival is already well underway with the likes of Hat In Time, Onirism and such. Playtonic fucked the execution but were right to try and fill the niche, nobody else was even trying.

>>9673749
>Banjovania

Classic Castlevania is a skill focused linear arcade game and has nothing to do with Metroid or nonlinear exploration. Metroidvania is already an abomination because what Castlevania actually is has nothing to do with Metroid. Castlevania decided to become a Metroid clone series.

FUCKING BANJOVANIA is so far from understanding game history and etymology that it defies reason.

>>9673665
>there's no way someone can disagree with me they must've gotten their opinion from a youtuber
NPC behavior

>>9679238
Let's look at a typical Jiggy in banjo tooie, for example, the bumpercar minigame in Witchyworld:
>Have to transform into cash truck to pay to open the bumper cars
>Have to drive all the way back to wumba to get banjo
>Have to go all the over to Mumbo's
>Walk all the way back to the bumper cars to power them on with magic
>Then walk all the way back to Mumbo's Skull to get Banjo back
>Then have to walk all the way back to finally be able to interact with the game.
This is how most jiggies in this game feel. It's just shit fetch quests.

Lets look at one from Grunty Industries:
>Jiggy is at the end of some trash compactor
>Only way to cross it is to get crushed, heal in your pack, rinse and repeat rinse and repeat

The problem with Banjo-Tooie is that its boring as fuck. Banjo moves slow as balls and the level's layouts are confusing with no sense of direction at all. That said, I love the atmosphere and the dialouge is genuinely funny, but I think you are greatly overselling how interesting these levels are to navigate. You could make the same arguments about Mario 64 or even the original BK and still have a game that is fun to move around in.

>>9686442
Banjoid it is then

>>9685058
>>9685143
>>9686421
Oh shit, I forgot about A Hat in Time and Onirism, thanks lads
>clive and wrench
Huh, actually didn't hear about that one until now, neat.
>>9686442
Not that I'm helping with this, but know that I do feel your pain, anon. I miss when "metroidvania" referred specifically to SoTN and the following CV games that used its template rather than a somewhat nebulous term because an irrational group in the fandom had to force it even when no one really agreed on the specifics of what it meant because everyone assumed everyone else just understood.

>>9682297
Correct, your opinion doesn't count and it never will. You didn't form your own opinion, you're simply parroting what another faggot said online, making you a double faggot. You have never even held a copy of the game in your hands, let alone played it. If you haven't played Tooie, it is even more unlikely that you played Banjo-Kazooie, an even older game that released well before you were born, a game that you only heard about because your faggot youtuber idol made a click bait video on. Tooie was great.

>>9686497
I miss soulful renders like these

>>9686465
>and the level's layouts are confusing with no sense of direction at all
PEBKAC error. The only level that has a poor sense of direction and conveying where things lead is Terrydactyland.

The fact that it takes brain power to navigate doesn't make it bad. It just makes it harder to step back into if you were born in the waypoint era, or even if you're just too used to the waypoint era.

>>9688087
Funny how you ignored the main crux of his argument which is that the majority of Tooie is spent WALKING and not actually having fun.

90s kid here, don't watch YouTubers, didn't care for BT at all. Only an autist would have so much trouble understanding that people might disagree with them for legitimate reasons.

>>9679736
>Tooie is 100% an attention span problem, not a game quality problem.
Well said, and I get the feeling in the Rare Replay video they were willing to acknowledge the backtracking complaints but while also standing firm in their decision to ask more from the player and work for the 100% completion. And yet I never felt it got in the way of playing like Kazooie in that you could hop in and out of worlds at a decent pace and beat the game. The formula caters to both the casual and the hardcore gamer, and what was left behind were the scrubs who game but can't into map navigation and the collectathon purists who hated the 3D metroidvania lite aspects. But the few who 100%ed Tooie know the joys of finally completing that world that left you baffled because Tooie could potentially have dozens of ways of helping you progress just 1 step closer to a jiggy. I think Terry is where people just got fed up and judged the game on a surface level, because it's not like frustrated players from that point would go on to do well with the following jiggies. The second half of the game can feel daunting, but that's what I love about Tooie's tone and it meshing well with the added challenge.

Okay here we go.

I love Tooie, I seriously do. I sometimes like it more than BK, depending on my mood. So I do not wish to be too complain-y. That said, I need to fucking vent, so here are all the MAJOR places I can think of where Tooie drops the ball

>Cutscenes way too fucking long. Not those in-game movie scenes, I mean shit within the level, Mumbo Pads, train cutscenes, cutscenes when you press a switch or the game stops to show you ANYTHING. In MOST instances they take their sweet fucking time, and a small handful of wasted seconds per cutscene seriously adds up. Several minutes of a BT playthrough are just overly-long cutscenes
>But incidentally yes, the movie cinematics at the game's beginning also run too long. They're still okay, but please move the Jingling Gets Zapped cutscene and maybe also the Klungo boss fight until AFTER Mayahem so the player can get into World 1 faster, and is less overwhelmed. Tooie's start has a big pacing problem.
>why the fuck is it even POSSIBLE to not get the fast swim upgrade before Atlantis. It is UNFORGIVABLE that not having it is even an option, let a alone EXTREMELY easy to miss on a blind run.
>When you're transformed and you try to leave the world, it DOESN'T give you a prompt asking if you want to change back like in BK. Wtf??????
>Yes, the same prompt should happen when trying to leave the world as solo Banjo/Kazooie. I know it "doesn't make sense" that they magically recombine, but this is a situation where gameplay clearly outweighs logic. We fucking NEEDED this QoL change.
>why THE FUCK can I open Cauldron Keep before I have the 70 Jiggies needed to beat the game??? And thus have to awkwardly turn around and go back for FIFTEEN more Jiggies?? They did that in BK as well, it's a huge flaw both fucking times. The FINAL Jigsaw barrier should be opening Cauldron Keep so you can head toward the endgame unimpeded
>WHY WHEN JAMJARS TEACHES YOU THE TAXI PACK DOES HE NOT FUCKING TELL YOU WHAT BUTTONS TO PRESS

1/5

2/5

>The color of the Jamjars lightbulbs should indicate which solo character learns the move, so you can AT LEAST tell from a distance
>Game also does a horrendous job explaining the FPS controls, especially strafing which makes the final Grunty fight HELL if you don't know about. A quick tutorial rundown should have been in place. Also, Jamjars should not be OUTSIDE the temple, he should be inside it. Players got confused not understanding the FPS he just taught them works in special areas only.
>Gruntilda should not be the one explaining minigames, it trivializes the character and makes no sense. Have JIGGYWIGGY do that, it gives him more character and makes him more sympathetic. I do understand Gruntilda needs more presence in this game—I don't know how to fix this—but her explaining the minigames just kinda made her presence worse, not better. Her not rhyming anymore makes her feel way more like a serious threat, but she's not ACTING like a threat as the minigame tutorial wench.
>The Warp Pads are pretty fucking great, actually. It's still probably true that most worlds could've benefitted from 1-2 more of them, tho.

Minor issues/nitpicks
>Clockwork Egg nests should really give you 2, not 1
>Considering Mingella and Blobbelda DIE in the same game that introduces them, they NEED more character/presence. Make them do SOMETHING. Either the factory or the amusement park should have been under THEIR ownership, not Gruntilda's.
>It really is a shame the B.O.B. laser only gets used once. Late into the game the Winkybunions should have used it again on one of the worlds/spiral mountain/whatever, as a display of power and showcase of threat.
>the Tintop cameras in Grunty Industries should NOT respawn, it defeats the entire fucking point of the system.
>If you weren't going to give Ice Eggs actual, genuine utility, you shouldn't have included them at all. Fire Eggs also should not be "worse Grenade Eggs", they need more of a function beyond lighting up dark areas.

3/5

Mumbo Jumbo:
>Him being there is good—Mumbo is cool. But in order to be actually FUN to play, he needed at least...
>1) his shitty melee attack to be replace by a fun, dramatic magical blast projectile that OHKOs most enemies. Playing as Mumbo should make you feel EMPOWERED, not crippled, even if Mumbo still doesn't have access to the bear and bird's moves and can't do much on his own. Controlling him should still FEEL like a power fantasy.
>2) You have 2 extra face buttons on the controller Mumbo doesn't use; use them. Any kind of special move where he can use a magic spell to make movement/traversal easier. Perhaps giving Mumbo a new double jump, like solo Banjo. Perhaps short-duration self-levitation, like Princess Peach in Smash Bros. I don't CARE, literally anything more interesting for getting around than his slow waddle would be VERY welcome. He's MAGIC, he can potentially have ANY special power.
>3) idk if being able to summon Mumbo at any time would be gameplay-appropriate, but I at LEAST think after using his pad the game should automatically ask you if you want to teleport back to his hut.
>4) Why the fuck does Witchyworld have 3 Mumbo Pads that all do the same thing??? make it ONE pad that activates ALL the rides. And you have to be a money car to OPEN Mumbo, but then the Dodgem Dome Mumbo opens requires turning into the car AGAIN?? And that minigame requires Banjo AGAIN. Also one Mumbo pad is locked behind a gate Mumbo himself cannot open, if you miss that you go back AGAIN. Stop this shit! Same with using Mumbo TWICE in Hailfire Peaks to revive the alien dad AND child and FORCE you to switch back a second time. Oh also if you don't know about the for-some-reason-SECRET tunnel shortcut between Humba/Mumbo in Hailfire, you ar SO fucked in the ass.
>Honestly, what the fuck is the point of Glowbos if they're always near Mumbo/Humba's houses anyway? This system needs a rethink. 3-5 of them per level would help make the worlds feel less empty.

>/5
Smash ruined Banjo threads prove me wrong

4/5

Glitter Gulch Mine
>it shouldn't be World 2. It's a nice romp, but its layout is confusing and not a good follow-up to the gentle complexity-curve Mayahem set up. WITCHYWORLD should be level 2, it's fairly small and separated into distinct zones to further ease the player into Tooie's big worlds.
>GGM's design also has 5 huge flaws:
>1) It's extremely easy to confuse the end of the river with the beginning of it, and which end of the train tracks is which.
>2) The Detonator maybe could be fine, but MISSING a bombable wall then having to go transform back for it is not FUN, it's fucking annoying, blind players might even do this 3-4 times. If you're gonna keep the Detonator it needs more smooth and justifiable implementation.
>3) Bill Drill is crucial for this world, but easy to miss. Was never an issue for me, but I've seen a LOT of folks walk right past it. Its location should be swopped with the boulder nearby under the fox guy's house. Much more obvious.
>4) The cave entrances aren't distinguished enough. I know they made an effort with different-colored gem piles and signs like Mine Entry 1, but it honestly is not sufficient at all to tell which entrance leads where. Also, there should not be 1 toxic gas cave, not 2.
>5) that whoooole stretch of train tracks starting at Humba, going passed Mumbo, and ending near the end of the river should NOT be accessible or just not as easily. It should be up on stilts, or too steep to walk up. This is a significant issue because people walk along these tracks and waste a lot of time because nothing is up there (Jinjo is not sufficient justification). They also confuse the player who might be looking for a cave entrance, or who start walking down the tracks not knowing they're actually going the wrong direction. The ability to walk on these tracks does NOTHING other than confuse people. The train tracks near the crushing shed are fine, because they're actually a good alternate way of getting around.

>>9688594
>I didn't know you could strafe
I seeiously should have done so with the bulbs but stopped right there

5/5

Atlantis
>Swimming does not bother me, and I am NOT someone who gets easily lost (Most of the underwater areas all link back to each other in a big circle, it's not a maze). This is among my favorite worlds. But even *I* can tell there's one too many underwater rooms. Get rid of Big Fish Cavern to ease navigation a little, just stick the big guy elsewhere.
>the octopuses NEEDED to be different fucking colors to help tell them apart, holy shit. There's also basically no indication you're able to freeze them, and EVEN IF you try to, the tentacles can block them making players think it isn't possible.
>Bro, how you not gonna have Doubloons among gold treasure piles in the sunken ship??? Why even HAVE a sunken ship with no pirate treasure, this is ludicrous. Finding Doubloons down there would be fun and a nice surprise.
>I know the Atlantis warp pad is right near Humba, but blind players do not know that. They get confused not knowing which building/tunnel leads where. Humba should not be on a different SCREEN through a tunnel, she should just be plainly visible in the main Atlantis zone. Or fuck, just put her in the Locker Cavern since there's nothing for the Submarine to even DO in the main Atlantis area anyway. Whatever works.
>just step onto the warp pad and press B!
>just step onto the warp pad and press B!
>just step onto the warp pad and press B!
>just step onto the warp pad and SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASS! :D
>Yeah I get it, it's an underwater stage. But the dry land town portion REALLY needed more, it's fucking great but too tiny. There should be 1-2 more buildings, a beach off to the side with some palm trees, maybe a train station to help it feel more lived-in. I really seriously don't want MUCH, but that town is SO GOOD that it should have been milked a LITTLE more.

Alright, fucking god I'm pooped just from writing all that. What I did not include: backtracking or Terrydactyland. I can't talk about either of those, or this post will become a novel. :/

6/5

>>9688603
I would like it if the "only impatient zoomers hate Tooie, the game is fine" crowd would actually engage with some of what I have to say this time. I grew up with this game. Tooie is one of my favorite games period but I CANNOT overlook how many fucking flaws it has anymore, it's a goddamn mess.

Zoomers ARE impatient idiots but a lot of the criticism of BT is very much valid.

>>9688609
Yeah the reason strafing is important is because if you use it in the Hag 1 fight, Kazooie will not constantly try to angle herself back to the floor. You can point at Grunty and have it stay that way.

>>9686771
>let's just add an especially negro baby to the franchise after two of the most radically insane games featuring some of the most iconic designs of all time
>and he's in a onesie
What the fuck were they THINKING

>>9688593
>>9688594
>>9688601
>>9688607
>>9688610
Screenshotted for myself later. Thank you, these are well-thought out observations.

>>9688610
Forgot the most important question of all: where are all the hot mermaid babes?! Statues imply they exist, but there are NO sexy mermaid girls...? Unacceptable!

I would also settle for mermaids with anthro pig upper halves, because that would be funny and on-brand.

>>9673661
Did a Banjo kid beat you up at school or why do you make these threads every week? Are you the guy who thinks that trash Rayman is good?

>>9688594
>Fire Eggs also should not be "worse Grenade Eggs"
I haven't finished reading your tirade yet, but just fyi, if you got the Dragon Kazooie transformation, you actually get infinite fire eggs. I mean granted, there's a infinite ammo cheat as well, but I can't remember if it's given to you in-game or not.

>>9688610
>just step onto the warp pad and
Kek, it took me a second to remember why you would even complain about this, that is kinda silly, isn't it?
>Why even HAVE a sunken ship with no pirate treasure
I played through Tooie last year and I still don't remember, what actually is the point of the sunken ship area? Did it connect to Glitter Gulch or something or was that the area behind Jolly's?

>>9688901
The ship has a Jinjo in a chest, it has a pipe leading to another Jinjo in the mine level, with no way back up if you fall/jump down. It has tunnels leading to the main Atlantis area and to the locker cavern.

It's kinda fucking weird they included it, it even has its own warp pad. But there's no reason for it. It's strange. They could maybe included a treasure room or some ghost pirates.....idk. Ship shoulda just been in the same room as the lockers or the big fish really

>>9688593
>>9688594
>>9688601
>>9688607
>>9688610
"Loves Tooie more then Kazooie" guy here. From what I've read so far these complaints all seem largely correct and solid.

People dissing the tonal shift have no idea what it was like to be a kid back then. Even when I was young enough to find zelda intimidating, I was grateful the shooter sections and the explosives added a cool factor, like spyro or crash, and it let you get away with whipping it out when youre with the crew who mostly played the turoks, dukes and wrestling games. It was absolutely the necessary decision at the time.

But if a new entry were to be made, the appropriate response to the modern world would be to revert back to the spunky pseudo fairy tale world of kazooie. Or else you wind up with nuts and bolts and banjos horrifyingly beady eyes.

I will continue to use the term 'Banjovania'. And you will continue to seethe.

>>9684560
Click Clock Woods was one of the most imaginative, interesting and well planned levels of any 3d platformer.
Cloud Coocoo Land was a bunch of random land masses in the air tied together with the theme of being shit.

You have wrong opinions and should feel bad.

>>9688593
>>9688594
>>9688601
>>9688607
>>9688610
>>9688623
Very good points, BT apologists BTFO. What ressonates most with me is the cutscenes criticism. They make the game absolutely unbearable to go back to. They shouldve made every cutscene skipable.
Other than that I think you were too soft on GGM as a second level.
Its where all the bullshit backtracking starts and since theres no indication of whether you can do more in your first run there, you end up losing a lot of time checking if you missed something.
Jamjars locations can also be somewhat obscure. I remember that as a kid it took me a long ass time to find the Talon Torpedo Jamjars. This locks you out of Wasteland and completely blocks your progress in the game.

>>9676214
Battletoads and DKC are both the best platformers on nes and snes. Not even up for debate.

>>9689091
Beyond Glitter Gulch Mines bullshit backtracking having the second world be some dreary mud colored mine seems like a terrible idea.
BK's second level was Treasure Trove Cove. Another bright sunny level, with a bit of a different theme. You didn't get dreary until level 3 (Clanker's Cavern).
Actually that was a problem with a lot of the BT levels, it seems like all of them were darker and mud colored. Even Mayhem temple had the indoor area which felt more 'dark'.

>>9682297
It's not even your opinion at that point. You don't even have an opinion.

I can think of like, 10 design flaws with this one button. Actually I was being hyperbolic and was going to leave the post as that, but I bet I actually can do that

>completely kills all momentum of the "fuck yeah!" cool feeling when you first become daddy T-rex by IMMEDIATELY making you change back. super awkward misstep
>prior point could have easily been solved by just not having it on a timer. I understand the timer is what the "challenge" is supposed to be, but it's a shit challenge anyway, and the timer merely offers the illusion of something interesting to do. It's not worth keeping.
>picture on the button spoils that there will be a T-rex transformation ahead of time (the dino roar doors also do that) utterly ruining the surprise
>upon becoming baby T-rex and the button not working, it spoils for a SECOND time there will be an adult T-rex at some point. which you can tell, because the picture clearly doesn't look precisely the same as baby T-rex
>this challenge is neither fun nor a hard test of skill, or satisfying in any way, it is just annoying. If something isn't fun, hard, rewarding or even interesting, then why the FUCK put it in a video game? It was unworthy of inclusion.
>it was uneccesary to place the image on the button, the fact that it was clearly too large for Banjo's weight is sufficient. figuring out that daddy T-rex was heavy enough COULD have been part of the puzzle, but they just spell it out to you and frankly insult the player's intellect.
>why is this arbitrarily restricted to adult T-rex only, what can't baby T-rex do it? The weight thing is irrelevant, there are character-specific switches all over the game
>the fact THIS, this extreme MUNDANE task of sitting on a button is one of only TWO THINGS the daddy T-rex is useful for is pathetic. A T-rex should be doing cool shit, this is just pathetic!

Alright well that was only 8. Still tho. Fuck this button in particular and everything it stands for.

>>9689080
I dunno man. My guy instinct is that people sorta just fall in love with the idea/vibe of Click Clock Wood. I don't know that the actual level design or execution of the place is entirely up to snuff

based /pw/-/vr/ nostalgia alliance

>>9689064

Banjovania best bongformer

>>9689668
I may be an old gamer who stopped playing nintendos with the n64, but i have to say, that picture has a lot of kino.

Biggest flaw in Banjo-Tooie is no game over cutscene with hot undead skeleton gruntilda

>>9682297
>deleted 3 days after it was posted
okay

>>9686527
>you dislike this game
>therefor you MUST be parroting a youtuber there is no other explanation
okay zoomer

>>9688610
>>9688607
>>9688601
>>9688594
>>9688593
Honestly pretty much everything here is valid...and I love Tooie. It's one of those games that is kinda scuffed from a design standpoint, but is just really fun to play regardless. Also Grunty Industries was KINO

>>9689852
Care to extrapolate?

>>9689668
Oracle of Seasons pulled off the gimmick extremely well

Can someone please help me explain why I fucking hate Terrydactyland/Clanker's Cavern, because they are a pain in the ass mess, but then, I find Grunty Industries/Rusty Bucket Bay to be fantastic and quite enjoyable.....specifically BECAUSE they're a pain in the ass mess, and that's what I like about them?

Don't make no fucking sense to me, and yet it's plainly true.

>>9689474
I've never noticed the problem with this button, but it's a very valid one. The T-rex is cool but so underused.
Maybe you should've fight the boss with it, or cross that area with the stomping dino.

>>9679238
You started full retard but then delivered some good takes.
>>9686465
Agree, this is the problem in my opinion.
>>9688087
Glitter Gulch Mine, Grunty Industries and Cloud Cuckooland were hard to navigate despite me liking those levels. The problem with BT are not the levels but the fetch quests

>>9691918
Rusty Bucket isn't a pain, its just the engine room that's a pain since it has an instant death bottomless pit that is easy to fall into. It's otherwise an enjoyable level with a variety of challenges and doesn't require a lot of swimming like in Clanker's Cavern

>>9691918
One's a challenge that pushes you while giving an opportunity to streamline things and/or tackle things in a variety of ways with varying consequences while the other is just annoying? I don't know, something like that, perhaps?

>>9679238
>THE progenitor of translating snaking, metroidvania design into 3D

Pretty sure that was Resident Evil.

The problem with Tooie is that it's horribly paced and wastes a lot of player time, in addition to fracturing its level design in favour of interconnected areas in lieu of a large, open playground with an abundance of tantalising distractions à la Mario 64/Banjo 1.

For me it's that middle section. The beginning levels and ending levels are all strong, even Grunty Industries, haters can seethe. But I would rather kill myself than go through Jolly Roger or Terrydactyland

>>9694263
But JRL is the best level in the game

>>9673843
not having individual notes was bizarre to me

>>9695246
>>9674354
>>9679352
I know I've said it multiple times on /vr/ but I guess I'll say it one final time: Why do people think 100 individual Notes would have been good in Tooie? It's such a common thing people say and I still, like really struggle to understand how this makes gameplay better. I can't wrap my head around what about this change would make Tooie better. How? Why? Literally, how in the fuck would MORE shit to keep track of improve the game, why would missing 1 Note and having to explore these fuck-huge worlds to find it be an improvement on gameplay

So many people say they want this, WHY. Why do you want this, I literally don't understand at all

>>9673661
>They didn't learn anything from DK64
anything would have been an improvement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYisr6GRJH4

>>9695260
>why would missing 1 Note and having to explore these fuck-huge worlds to find it be an improvement on gameplay
That's actually more likely to happen when you have sparce nests of notes.

People are only paying attention to these details on paper. You see a smaller number and wonder why people would prefer a bigger number. Well a bigger number isn't necessarily harder or easier. In Banjo Kazooie, the notes are actually really easy to find: they form a bread trail, you just follow the trail. They're not in a trail when they're in nests, they're actually more spread out and hidden.

>>9673843
How do you measure the size of the levels? Please respond

>>9695518
>That's actually more likely to happen when you have sparce nests of notes.

What the FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT no that's not how ANYTHING fucking works

>>9696349
Why are you pretending to be stupid? I already explained it to you. The notes aren't out in the open in a trail, there's one nest hidden here and one there and one in an empty room and so on. You run the exact same risk of missing just three random notes like in Banjo Kazooie, but only it will read that you're missing 15, and those 3 nests will not be in the same area, like they would be in Banjo Kazooie (groups of 3 are usually laid out around corners in that game)

Like in Jolly Roger's Lagoon, there are entire empty chambers where just one note nest is found. Imagine missing 5 notes and it's just one note nest in a temple buried at the bottom of the sea.

>>9696473
Nah, look. If you change nothing else about a level but make it BIGGER, the increase in size will make Notes HARDER to find, because there is more space and it will take a longer time to find them in such big space, and more areas to misplace them in. Instead however, if you keep levels small and change nothing else but the NUMBER of collectable objects, it will also be HARDER to find all of them the more individuals there are to pick up, not easier. Having MORE Notes to pick up means there are more chances to miss them. If you have 100 individual ones they are pretty much inevitably going to placed in SOME random corner you didn't think to look in. And even if, EVEN IF they were super smart about it and placed literally all of them in obvious pathways, there is still MORE opportunity to miss Notes if there are 100 individual items. Whereas with 17 You are pretty much NEVER going to be missing any.

Now, a scenario where you are missing 1 Note out of 100, or 1 Note Nest out of 17, might seem the same, because you're still scouring the entire level for one collectable. But it's NOT the same, because with 100 individual ones you are way, way more likely to miss Notes in the first place. Having MORE to pick up in these massive fucking worlds is not helpful, because the scenario of missing a single Note and having to scour these HUGE fucking levels just to find the last one must be avoided at all costs, and more individuals makes it WAY more likely you're going to mis Notes somewhere.

Therefore, if Tooie's levels are bigger, which makes finding Notes harder, you need to compensate by having less of them to pick up, which makes finding them easier. You CANNOT have 100 individuals because it would be a fucking NIGHTMARE to have to scour Tooie's massive worlds to find the last one. With 17 it's extremely rare for this to happen.

>>9694263
Jolly Roger is so great to travel through first time, i really like the exploration that opens up. But I do dread going through it again. As a Tooie lover it's the main reason why I don't replay it too often

>>9682262
Jet Force Jamjars

>>9688610
>What I did not include: backtracking or Terrydactyland. I can't talk about either of those, or this post will become a novel. :/
I would enjoy the novel if you felt like continuing, this was a great read

>>9686771
Silicon Graphics look so damn comfy, man

>>9698485
I agree, it's nice to hear a critical take on the game from someone who actually cares about it, and isn't just "BK GOOD BT BAD"

Most of the problems endemic to Banjo-Tooie remind me of that Lord of The Rings quote from Bilbo "I feel thin, sort of stretched, like butter scraped over too much bread.” Somewhere in here is a really fantastic fucking game, but it's spread too thin

>>9699091
Every single world compared to Kazooie is better except for MMM and Rusty Bucket. Kazooie's first 4 worlds get stomped by Tooie's, it's not even fair. Then arguing Tooie still has the edge on most of the second half is a cakewalk.

By I sure love that the Cheato Page in the pawn shop in the Lagoon doesn't spawn until after you leave the room and come back. Meaning you spend like an hour trying to hunt the fucking thing down on the bottom of the ocean when really it's just randomly appeared in the pawn shop with no indication.

Oh boy, a Banjo Tooie thread

>>9680531
Based

>>9695424
This video is obviously funny, but there are people who legitimately think DK64 is a complicated game because some youtuber told them so, when it really just boils down to:
>Pick kong
>Collect or use ability on shit that has kong's color or face
>Repeat

>>9688594
>Mingella and Blobbelda DIE in the same game that introduces them
Why everyone assumes this? They are witches just like Gruntilda, who survived even after being reduced to a skull

>>9683703
i tried it and it's below average. The levels are a clusterfuck of concepts with difficulty varying all over the place. The level design is nothing to write home about and even the original DK trilogy is miles better than anything in it.

>>9700875
Yeah I'm hoping in Banjo Threeie they come back comically as pancakes. Maybe one of them steps in a machine to try to squeeze and compress back to normal and she just ends up absurdly tall and thin instead

>>9677230
>Grunty Industries is fucking great
I certainly wouldn't have agreed with you when I was young. Hated it, and I hated the sewerage feel of the map. Now I can appreciate the complex level layout, but I still don't like the setting.

>>9701347
Funny how I have the opposite opinion. Liked it as a kid, hate as an adult, but still like the setting.

>>9701128
Me too

>>9701347
the setting is peak banjo, what are you on. Tooie is great because Rare embraces who they are and they go beyond the simple grass desert snow spoogy kiddy mario tone, and it expands on the grimier, richer settings of kazooie's more novel settings, every world feels far more fleshed out in tooie in terms of detail and design

Tooie has been much more enjoyable on my second play through. I preferred kazooie as a kid and still do, but approaching tooie as a puzzle game is much more enjoyable.

The boss battles are enjoyable and fun.

>>9703364
I wish chuffy was tougher, that idea was so epic to me as a kid. Wish it held up. It's so easy to get Tooie to a 10/10 with a few tweaks

>>9701347
Grunty Industries is actually the reason why I like Factory settings in games now.

>>9673661
Rare really did go off the rails after BK.
>muh huge empty overworld
>muh huge labyrinthine levels
>muh minigames
>muh excessive backtracking
I've always loved BK and have replayed it start-to-finish many times, but I've only played through BT twice in my entire life.
Which is more than I can say for DK64, at least. Once was enough of that.

>>9699553
I'm glad somebody likes it, but I can't agree with that. For my money, Banjo-Kazooie packs more fun into every level than the entirety of Banjo-Tooie.