/vr/ - Retro Games

environments are 3D, entities are 2D. it's 2.5D. case closed.

>game has an X, Y and Z axis
It's 3D. How the level file format works is irrelevant.

>>9583645
It's the other way round. Environments are 2D, entities are 3D. E.g. projectiles can travel over monsters.

>>9583657
Doom maps are 2D. The floor can be higher or lower but you always shoot whatever is in front of you regardless of elevation. You could say the game is 3D because of the way it presents its graphics, but there isn't a functional z-axis.

>>9583685
You could say the same of Mario Kart 64

>>9583685
But Doom has elevators that move you up and down and you can fall off ledges. There's 3D movement.

>>9583659
the environments have height, width and depth. the entities are sprites. you are low IQ.

>>9583690
Mario Kart 64 has an actual Z-axis. This is pretty obvious on rainbow road but you should be able to see it anywhere.

What might misguide some people here is that many people play a modified doom.

>>9583632
Real life is 2d the 3d plane is an illusion

>>9583685
Caco fireballs can fly overhead, poindexter.
>>9583632
3D

>>9583730
It has 3D movement the same way Alundra does. Note how in no Doom map is there a location you can walk over and under.

>>9583632
If lacking room over room is 2d. Then most of the real world is 2d.

>>9583685
>but you always shoot whatever is in front of you regardless of elevation
Absolute bullshit repeated by retards. Dooms projectiles operate in 3d space.



//
// P_SpawnPlayerMissile
// Tries to aim at a nearby monster
//
void
P_SpawnPlayerMissile
( mobj_t* source,
mobjtype_t type )
{
mobj_t* th;
angle_t an;

fixed_t x;
fixed_t y;
fixed_t z;
fixed_t slope;

// see which target is to be aimed at
an = source->angle;
slope = P_AimLineAttack (source, an, 16*64*FRACUNIT);

if (!linetarget)
{
an += 1<<26;
slope = P_AimLineAttack (source, an, 16*64*FRACUNIT);

if (!linetarget)
{
an -= 2<<26;
slope = P_AimLineAttack (source, an, 16*64*FRACUNIT);
}

if (!linetarget)
{
an = source->angle;
slope = 0;
}
}

x = source->x;
y = source->y;
z = source->z + 4*8*FRACUNIT;

th = P_SpawnMobj (x,y,z, type);

if (th->info->seesound)
S_StartSound (th, th->info->seesound);

th->target = source;
th->angle = an;
th->momx = FixedMul( th->info->speed,
finecosine[an>>ANGLETOFINESHIFT]);
th->momy = FixedMul( th->info->speed,
finesine[an>>ANGLETOFINESHIFT]);
th->momz = FixedMul( th->info->speed, slope);

P_CheckMissileSpawn (th);
}




See all those z calculations? Looks pretty 2d to me.

Wow so doom is 3d after all. That's very interesting I thought it was 2d for a second

it's weird to explain. but in short doom is a 3D game. though the way the original game was rendered is very different from how games after were rendered. it used two things that were uniquely strange.

first was the sector mapping system. modern engines create maps with a collection 3D meshes. doom had rooms as a single polygon called a sector and polygonal edges were called linedefs. each sector had it's own floor/ceiling height, lighting and textures assignment. adjacent sectors that shared vertices, points on the polygon, would appear as connected rooms with no wall between them.

second was how it was rendered. it used something called raycast. where the player cast a number of 2D rays out into the sector which would continue until they hit a linedef. if that linedef was a connected sector then the ray would continue through the adjacent sector. repeats until it hits a valid wall to render. it would then render the wall/ceiling/floor, in a single vertical slice that was 1 pixel wide. and the number of rays cast were the width of the screen. like 320x240 would cast 320 rays to fill the screen with vertical slices.

another weird thing was how the game played. which was basically a top down game, like the map view. this has been corrected in modern engines. but in the original doom the verticality of your aim was ignored. the only time height was a factor were in player collisions. making unreachable areas above you with walls you can't surmount. and this can be disabled with noclip

one of my favorite features of using the system created for doom was that levels didn't have to abide by the rules of Euclidian geometry. connected sectors could loop back into themselves and never intersect because of the way the game renders.

bisquit has a great video on the subject. jump to 13:42 for a view into how Doom's renderer works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQYsFshbkYw&t=822s

doom has a Z axis and is 3d

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYGJQqhMN1U

>>9583970
(continued)
What this guy said is correct. >>9583843 but it only applied to slow moving projects because of the animation. so fireballs, rockets, bfg, ect. so it's a point of contention. if you look at the code in the post it shows that the angle between the player and the enemy or vice versa is calculated. and the object moves along that slope. not that the player aimed the project at that vertical angle.

here is an example of what I mean. dude shoots alot of rockets. watch as the rockets move in vertical angles in which the player is not aiming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOFv1zbX5xc

though I just want to point out that Doom is 3D. Just plays like a 2D top down sometimes. And there's nothing wrong with that. in fact I love it.

>>9584060
The rockets are moving in vertical angles the player is not aiming toward because autoaim is on.

If a projectile is a shot at a player who is on a lift for example. If that lift changes the player's position downwards before the projectile hits, the projectile will go over the players head and miss.

To me that would suggest those z calculations do matter to the gameplay and aren't just related to animation as you suggest.

>>9584060
>but it only applied to slow moving projects
Hitscan attacks also fully take z into account. After auto-aim returns a slope, this slope value is then use to perform proper 3d hitscan.

>>9584240
think it's just a collision detection to make sure the angle doesn't collide with a ceiling or a floor. because it would be catastrophic if an enemy was below you and you fired a rocket and the collided with the floor immediately below you. but the more we talk about this the more wrong I think I am about it. vertical collision detection is just more proof that doom is 3D. really it's just the vertical auto aim on by default in the original release of the game that feels 2D to me.

>>9583632
doom is very primative 3d, in the literal definition of having a z axis. the levels and enemies operated in 3 dimensional coordinate space. You didn't have polygons, multiple height factors for level geometry, but you did have a rough cubic volume with enemy height and depth taken into account. That factoid only really applies to the very early wolfenstein wave.

>>9583938
Nah that's Wolfenstein 3D. Doom's a lot more complex.

I remember how it all happened. Someone on the internet found out about Doom projecting a 2D vertical plane instead of using true 3D. Then it exploded. Id Software went on damage control and tried to silence everyone. People were burning their Doom memorabilia on the streets. The police was everywhere. It was on TV 24 hours a day. John Romeo was forced to testify before congress. He said he knew everything and still let the game be released as a 3D experience. People were throwing Caco demon plushies at him when he left the court. He resigned from Id Software that very day. The next day the dollar collapsed.

>>9583645
it's the other way around. graphically it's 2d, the game logic underneath the 2d facade is 3d.

It's as much of a 3D game as Outrun is.

Been playing for the past month or so, still on the fence about the battle pass? Is it worth it, or should I just hold on until next months?

Tbh I'm not super into the jungle theme, but I'm already level 50 so I thought I might appreciate the mystery variants idk.

>>9584420
doom has a battle pass? for what?

>>9583632
Crappy 3D is still 3D. It's 3D.

>>9583632
No.

>>9583685
Like he said, how the level format works isn't relevant.

>>9583772
Oh, so A Link To The Past is a 3D game?

>>9584450
The 3D is roughly comparable to Ultima Underworld's from 1992 (a game with very advanced 3D graphics for its time), only it runs a thousand times faster.

>>9583645
That's literally not what the term "2.5D" denotes at all though. Viewtiful Joe is 2.5D.

>>9584452
Does it have a Z coordinate calculation?

>>9584019
I came here to post this

>>9584339
This.

>>9584339
>>9584608
Prove it.

>>9583632
all games are 2D since the screens are flat

>>9583772
>Note how in no Doom map is there a location you can walk over and under.

That has nothing to do with the definition of 3D.
>Is there X+Y+Z axis?
>Yes
3D
>No
not 3D.

It's that simple. Whether the engine allows rooms above one another just means it can do more things, like Build versus Doom (in b4 retards who claim "Build doesn't really have rooms above one another!!" because they just parrot stupid things heard from other stupid parrots).

The problem, the fact that the question is even asked, comes from marketing. Video game marketing has always been about spouting big technical words and try to explain it in layman's terms to impress the stupid customer. When Quake came along, suddenly they got stuck, how can we market this new 3D system, after all we already used the 3D marketing trick with Doom before... I know! let's just claim that now we have RREEEAAALL THREE-DEE! That's right, all these years it wasn't REAALLY REEAAL THREE-DEE, we were lying to you, but not anymore see!

>>9584668
Doom was not real 3D

>>9583657

Right answer.

>>9583632
EVERYONE HERE IS WRONG

x, y, z, time = 4D

>>9585052
>Super Mario World
>x, y, time = 3D

>>9585109
yes

>>9585251
But what constitutes a 2D game then?

The difference between Doom 2 and Doom 3 is the difference between a painting and a sculpture

>>9584339
Outrun doesn't calculate height

>>9583734
You're talking about what you see while everyone smarter than you is talking about how the engine works, fucking idiot.

>>9583632
All 3D games are 2D

>>9586178
What about Voxon games?

>>9586186
Oh yeah it's one of the exceptions, and also VR games

>>9585314
a 3D game is just many 2D games joined together

>>9583761
You got me, anon, I snickered

Doom is a textbook example of a 2D plane being projected into 3D space.
The maps are 2D, the game itself is 3D, the ability to have room over room or object over object is not what makes it 3D.
3D just needs movement in all 3 axis, which Doom has.
Wolfenstein is not 3D, Doom is.

>>9583970
>doom had rooms as a single polygon called a sector and polygonal edges were called linedefs
Sort of, a sector is just a space with defined heights, lighting, effect, tags, and flats (floor or ceiling textures, including one which will render the sky texture when used). A room can be a single sector, but often they aren't, instead making up multiple.
If you look at a set of stairs, every step on that stair is its own sector with its own defined height.

>second was how it was rendered. it used something called raycast. where the player cast a number of 2D rays out into the sector which would continue until they hit a linedef. if that linedef was a connected sector then the ray would continue through the adjacent sector. repeats until it hits a valid wall to render. it would then render the wall/ceiling/floor, in a single vertical slice that was 1 pixel wide. and the number of rays cast were the width of the screen. like 320x240 would cast 320 rays to fill the screen with vertical slices.
Doom doesn't raycast, it uses Binary Space Partitioning to cut the level up into chunks and then determines what gets rendered or not from what position.

>>9584473
Doom does, because it's 3D.

>>9586412
>Doom is a textbook example of a 2D plane being projected into 3D space. The maps are 2D, the game itself is 3D,
This is false. Windows, switches and decorations can be set at different heights. Don't tell me you're one of those idiots who think Doom maps are generated from the automap.

This question is like the Monty Hall problem. There's a right answer, everyone has an opinion, and nobody can agree which one is correct.

>>9586421
It's a bit grey, but it's still a 2D plane with additional information per sector on things like how the engine should interpret it in 3D.
It's still born from a 2D plane.

>>9586468
I've been playing Dark Forces lately, on the Force Engine.
It does feel 3D. The only time I felt outside the 3D illusion was when I looked up at the sky and... it's a cylinder not a sphere.

>>9586471
Explain why that makes it not three dimensional.

>>9586471
>It's a bit grey, but it's still a 2D plane with additional information per sector on things like how the engine should interpret it in 3D.
Yeah, "additional information" like the Z axis values, right?

>>9586476
Yeah Dark Forces had true 3D levels, with rooms on top of other rooms. But it also had higher system requirements than Doom at the time

>>9586389
Ok. But what constitutes a 2D game then?

Alright everyone, shut the fuck up.

>>9588386
He said it's not general purpose 3D not that it's not true 3D.

>>9588476
It's literally what he said.

>>9588476
not general purpose 3d implies it's closer a mode seven game than it is to quake, it has isolated instances of z axis, many games considered 2d have that.

>>9588498
It's actually not literally what he said. You'll notice he didn't use the word "true" anywhere in his tweet.

>>9588521
What do you think "general purpose 3D" means?