/vr/ - Retro Games

>>9566034
Agreed, and I love the DC, and also didn't have (and never played an actual) Saturn.

>>9566034
They both are horrible controllers.

Saturn.
>lets keep our shitty ergonomics from the Genesis, including the horribly placed face buttons
>d-pad still can't do precise up, down, left right movements
>oh shit the N64 has an analog stick, quick lets make one too and put it on a black bowl of cereal sized controller

Dreamcast
>maybe white/grey will be successful this time?
>get the face button placement right, but devolve back instead of keeping 6
>d-pad is finally good
>triggers are good
>still not dual analog, after the PS1 analog version came out years before this, having a single analog was already outdated

>>9566034
is the 3d control pad worth owning for a casual saturn enthusiast?
all I know is it works well with NiGHTs but there's no way I would want to play that game because the camera is zoomed in so much on the main character

>>9566102
no

Sega was failing to innovate with its controllers. There was literally no excuse for a 6th-gen controller to look like this while sporting only one analog stick, not after the DualShock. Microsoft understood this, Nintendo understood this and Sega was too busy sucking cocks.

>>9566086
What's a face button?

>>9566119
Press A to jump

>>9566086
>rotary dpad bad
>genesis face button bad
Fuck off.

>>9566120
I googled it since you were being dodgy.
Thanks.

>>9566102
It's great, I love it.

>>9566034
Why did everyone converge on 4 button layout on the left?
I miss my 6 buttons.
I miss my youth, when I was happy...

>>9566086
Give this man no more (You)s.

Why was Sega so convinced inward pointing handles were a good idea anyways

>>9566136
>left
right*

>>9566123
It's only good for when you need imprecise movements, like in a SHMUP where your movement are more like an arcade stick, but if you're trying to hold it in one of the cardinale directions for a length of time it easily slips to a diagonal position. Not so with a good d-pad, like on the SNES or N64.

>>9566125
If you've been on this planet longer than 12 years you should've understood that terminology.

>>9566317
It wasn't clear from the context.
Face buttons, evidently, refers to all the immediately visible buttons. What about the placement of the d-pad is wrong? On both the Genesis and Saturn?

>>9566338
Are you ESL?

>>9566350
Nope, native English speaker.
Also speak three other languages, but that's a different conversation.

>>lets keep our shitty ergonomics from the Genesis, including the horribly placed face buttons
What about the placement of the d-pad is wrong on the Genesis? And in what way did this carry over onto the Saturn?

>>9566159
I hate side scrollers so I don't really care. It's much better for top down shooters that require quick turns.

>>9566360
If you have small hands like half this board then it feels too far and too deep into the controller - source: my brother. If you have big hands then it feels like it's right at the very edge of the controller and way to convex to be of any use. - source: me. It also feels really mushy and you have to press more than you should to register inputs. The circle shape itself is fine for the majority of games on the genesis but if it had menu game like RPGs or Strat games it would be a fucking nightmare. The NES/SNES controllers always had better feeling D-Pads.

Oh and since you don't know what face buttons are and you had to Google that I'd better make myself clear: the d-pad is the directional pad, that's the cross-shaped button on the left of the controller that controls selection and movement of cursers or the played character(s).

>>9566102
Besides Nights and Christmas Nights, Space Harrier, Out Run, Panzer Dragoon Zwei, Sega Rally Plus (base game doesn't have support for the controller, it has to be Plus), Sega Touring Car all play fantastic with the Multi Controller. You should go for it.

>>9566426
>a fucking nightmare
Yeah, your controllers are busted, bro. Saturn controllers are some of the best controllers ever made. If you can't make precise movements with them, your controllers are too worn.

>>9566426
>but if it had menu game like RPGs or Strat games it would be a fucking nightmare.
No it's fucking not. Just click fucking down. Or the other cardinal directions.
The goddamn rose is even raised.
You're right about the SMS, though.

>The NES/SNES controllers always had better feeling D-Pads.
I disagree completely - they felt too plastic-y. Too hard.
The later Genesis and the Saturn controller had this nice rubberized feel. It made it soft to the touch. You could play them comfortably for hours.
I think the kidney bean controller is one of the best ever designed. I think the Saturn type-2 is the apotheosis of that design.

>>9566435
>Panzer Dragoon Zwei
Does it really improve the gameplay?
You're stuck on a rail, how much can it really change things?

>>9566450
How are the new licensed dpads by comparison? Thinking of picking up one of the 8 button Saturn Bluetooth pads for non-analog emulation and fighters

>>9566034
The reason was to make a visual distinction between the old and new eras for Sega.

>>9566510
and we see how well that worked out for them lol

>>9566034
I wish the Dreamcast had trigger buttons.

>>9566595
is that not what those buttons on the back of it are called????

>>9566484
They should've just added dual sticks to the mk2

>>9566034
You're probably gripping it too tightly. Gripping it tightly forces your wrists into an uncomfortable position and causes cramps. If you hold it with a loose grip then it's fine.

There is a lot of room for improvement but it's still not the worst official controller that I have ever used.

>>9566601
It's exactly what they're called. He's probably thinking of shoulder buttons.

>>9566360
>>9566338
Are you being intentionally obtuse to troll that guy or did you genuinely misunderstand?
If it's the latter, face buttons are the buttons on the front of the controller, the part that directly faces you. Basically all buttons not counting the ones on the shoulders and things like triggers on the back.
The D pad is generally not considered to be a button, even though I suppose it's technically four buttons, but you don't push it in wholly like a button.

>>9566034
In all my years of playing video games, I have never felt like any official controller is bad, uncomfortable or deficient in any way.

Not Dreamcast, not Gamecube, not N64.

The Saturn controller looks like a clunky piece of shit, but there's probably nothing wrong with it either.

I got my Saturn 3d control pad yesterday. Honestly it's pretty weird, kinda get N64 controller weird vibes. It is better than the N64 controller. The stick feels strange but it works just fine. The toggle switch is also weird. I was playing duke nukem 3d, and an hour in, I realized the controller had become very comfy in my hands. It's those grips on the back. It's fucking weird and comfy at the same time.
Never played a Dreamcast but the analog stick looks better

>>9566086
>dual analog

Dual analogs were the beginning of the end for consoles. Everything is a pc game nowadays thanks to that. And gyro controls should have come earlier.

Also: there is no such a thing as a comfy d-pad + analog controls, one must be placed on a less ergonomic space for the sake of the other. Some kind of hybrid should have been developed right after the fifth gen. My two cents on this subject.

>>9566034
>dreamcast
Shit console. Dont care.

>>9566801
Having only 3 buttons on the original Genesis controller sucked for fighting games. The upgrade to 6 made it the best in the business at the time, however
>>9566938
Nah, dpad top opposite the buttons, sticks evenly spaced along the bottom works perfectly for everything

>>9566086
spbp

I never understood why they put fewer buttons on the DC controller, who thought that was a good idea?

>>9566102
More worth it as an alternative to the Dreamcast controller if anything, if you can find a converter for it – never found much use for it on Saturn, I just use on PC occasionally with a Raphnet USB adapter now.
Some of them probably drift because the analog dome gets stuck on the nylon mesh ball underneath. Fixed mine by opening it up and adding silicone lubricant.

>>9566779
>or did you genuinely misunderstand?
I didn't misunderstand anything.
I genuinely asked what was meant by face buttons.
>face buttons are the buttons on the front of the controller, the part that directly faces you.
I got that now.
>The D pad is generally not considered to be a button,
It is in both the Genesis and SMS manual.

>>9567091
>I never understood why they put fewer buttons on the DC controller, who thought that was a good idea?


Six buttons were a mistake, anyway. Virtua Fighter is the most complex fighting game ever and it goes pretty well with two attack buttons + one for defense.

There was a time people chosed consoles because they looked less complex compared to pc gaming. Nowadays controllers looks so clusterfucked that pc ended up being a reasonable, less complex choice.

/vr/ gaming = doing more with less, as far as console gaming goes.

>>9567193
Controllers are no more complicated than the PS2 (the most successful home console in history) or Xbox were. Any 'complexity' with the Switch has not stopped that from being uber successful either.
Xbox controllers in particular have lost more features each gen than they've gained and still don't have gyro while PS and Switch do.
None of the current console controllers have analog face buttons, d-pad or shoulder buttons ala PS2 and OG Xbox.
Nintendo have not even had analog triggers since the GCN (the first CC on Wii was the last to have them but was later replaced with the CC Pro).

Dreamcast taking away Z and C *without replacing them with shoulder buttons* was an arse backwards last minute decision. They're present in the API, several third party controllers have them and they're functional in certain games i.e. pressing the C button in SA1 makes the character stare at you.

>>9567193
>Virtua Fighter is the most complex fighting game ever
Nothing says "complex" quite like coinflips and button mashing

>>9566938
Retard

>>9567605
>Virtua Fighter
>button mashing

>>9566086
You have clearly never used the dpad on this controller to say something like that.

One of the Dreamcast controller prototypes is literally a Saturn 3D with a VMU bodged on to the top.

There's a lot of 6 button designs but also a fair few 4 button iterations.

>>9566739
It's still a massive downgrade

>>9566034
I think the dreamcast controller is great and ergonomic, people who complain about it are just inbred mutts with fingers the size of traditional frankfurtk sausages

>>9566581
The Dreamcast sold way better than the Saturn in the west.
But it was just too late. The PS2 was unstoppable.

And that is why this was my main Dreamcast controller.

inb4 imbeciles start in with their
>MadCatz
buffoonery

>>9567193
>Six buttons were a mistake, anyway.
Street Fighter doesn't work with four buttons.
>b-but SNK
Street Fighter doesn't work with four buttons.

>>9568401
Street fighter doesn't work on a controller. Use a stick, casual.

>>9566159
>it easily slips to a diagonal position

No it doesn't lol, unless you have so fat ass slippery fingers. And Nintendo style D-pads suck.

>>9568396
>6 button layout which keeps the main diamond actually usable
Why did fucking Madcatz of all people have to be the ones to think of this?

>>9568407
Of course it does. The plastic around the Nintendo d-pads gives an extra layer of resistance to accidental diagonal movements.

>>9567346
>Controllers are no more complicated than the PS2 (the most successful home console in history) or Xbox were.
>None of the current console controllers have analog face buttons, d-pad or shoulder buttons ala PS2 and OG Xbox.

To be precise controllers are now a bit more complex than they were in the PS2/Xbox gen, but a fair enough statement. My point is that dual-analog-lots-of-buttons PS1/PS2 controller was part of some movement that shift gears towards these movie games that are the current thing. Gameplay wise we did more action with less buttons on previous generations. On the other side if someone who never played games before wants to start playing a game that takes advantage of everything these controllers have to offer, let's say an FPS, than it's a learning process. Some friend or brother teaches him, hardly someone goes alone. Honestly that's what I see around me nowadays. How are player aspirants doing from your perspective? Seems to me like mouse & keyboard became a less frightening option.

>Any 'complexity' with the Switch has not stopped that from being uber successful either.

Fair enough, again. Sucessful you say, as comercially speaking. Remember when Nintendo wanted to expand the market? To find the blue ocean of new consumers? They were not talking about people who like to play games in the strict sense: to be challenged, to learn and solve things. Nintendo succeeded, their peers taked note and here we are debating in our /vr/ safe space now.

>Nintendo have not even had analog triggers since the GCN (the first CC on Wii was the last to have them but was later replaced with the CC Pro).

But analog triggers are a good thing in my POV. They are discrete shoulder buttons that act just like that until the aspirant player try a racing game and learns their magical thing spontaneously.

>>9566484
>Does it really improve the gameplay?
Yes
The game is hard as fuck especially if you try to 100%. The added precision of the analog stick is a big help.

>>9568513
>But analog triggers are a good thing in my POV. They are discrete shoulder buttons that act just like that until the aspirant player try a racing game and learns their magical thing spontaneously
Depends on the triggers. The GC triggers have an enormous amount of travel and relatively high resistance so they work poorly as digital triggers. The Wii Classic Controller and PS2 shoulder buttons are analog but the triggers are very shallow so it's hard to be precise with analog inputs.
I think the Xbox controllers and the DS4 ultimately struck the best balance. And what the Dualsense is doing with adaptive resistance is very interesting too.

>>9568406
There have been at least two SF world championships won on pads, scrub.

>>9568539

I'm talking more as an overall potential feature on a controller as opposed to redundant buttons/features.

My experience is with the Dreamcast controller and they do great with F355 Challenge.

>>9568412
It's hardly the only one but like 6 buttons it's done rarely for a reason unfortunately.

>>9568582
On 4 button pads

>>9568634
now wtf is that thing?

>>9566947
>works perfectly for everything

That's not an unanimous opinion but more power to you.

>>9567609
>Retard

Glad to meet you. I'm anon.

>>9568647
a controller that is objectively superior to the dreamcast pad

>>9568519
Zwei has native mouse controls if you want even more precision.

>>9568519
>>9569046
Everyone always says Zwei is an easy game. That it should only take 2hrs to beat it...
embarrassed to admit, took me many more hours than that.

>>9569046
That's funny, I'll try it if I can

>>9569476
It's easy compared to any old shmup, but trying to get 100% kills is something else

I've been playing nights into dreams with my controller recently. It's a cool game but honestly it's nothing to sink your teeth into. Could have made for a nice freebie game to bundle with the system to show it off. It's nice on Duke nukem, so I guess I can play powerslave with it on top of the later panzer dragoon games. And burning rangers looks decent

>>9566086
>still not dual analog, after the PS1 analog version came out years before this, having a single analog was already outdated
The Dreamcast was announced in 1997 and launched in Japan in 1998. Sony's Dual Analog controller came out around that period.

>>9566317
>>9566779
This whole thing would have been avoided if you called him a newfag and told him to lurk moar like you're supposed to.

>>9566938
Good take.

>>9566086
>zoomer revisionist

>>9566938
>Also: there is no such a thing as a comfy d-pad + analog controls, one must be placed on a less ergonomic space for the sake of the other.
Sadly, this. The Saturn's 3D Pad always looked like it had the right ergonomic balance for both of them, but since I've never touched one, can anyone here confirm?

>>9566136
Lots of face buttons scare casual audiences.

>>9573581
What about lots of shoulder buttons or more than one analog stick?

>>9573796
Well yeah, having two analog sticks is a big deal that makes gaming infeasible for a a ton of casual people already, so there's no way they're going to make even more intimidating and complicated-looking official gamepads. No one cares about shoulders button because they're hidden behind the controller.

I love both, but my only complaints of the Dreamcast is the dpad, and lack of 6 face buttons. Otherwise throwing in a PS4 joysitck fixes any complaints of the sharp joystick. But I can't deny the comfort of the Saturn, if they just threw in a vmu slot into the 3d analog, no one would complain

>>9566086
Based zoomie dabbing on the furry boomies

>>9567193
>Virtua Fighter is the most complex fighting game ever and
Is this what retards really believe nowadays?

Shitty controller designs general?

>small as fuck D-pad
>no corresponding Z button on the left side
>right stick doesn't have a head like the left stick
>poorly sized and shaped buttons compared to the classic Diamond layout
>shit triggers compared to Xbox's and Dreamcast's
>got rid of the Select button for no reason

>>9566136
I think dropping six button support really hurt fighting game industry on consoles.

>>9574569
>Not mentioning the small c-stick
>Not mentioning the retarded 8 way joystick engraving
Otherwise I agree, this controller had some dumb fucking design but people oddly like it, the face buttons placements are really retarded. There's no comfortable placemenrt for your thumb on it

>>9566034
DC controller was a beaut and the d-pad was so much better.

>>9574663
>and the d-pad was so much better.

>>9575237
Good lucking playing 2D fighters with the Saturn.

>>9574663
LMAO
I will say that both those controllers suck

>>9566801
GameCube is the only controller I hate

Are we not gonna talk about how the dc cable comes out of the controller facing the player? Then has to wrap back around towards the console? The fuck is that about?

>>9572585
I’ve never held one either but that is one thing the dreamcast got right. Unfortunately it’s about the only thing the dreamcast got right

>>9574602
It's called over the A button if you're going to complain about the button layout complain about how there is no easy way to hold B with X or Y without using multiple fingers.

>>9566034
I've never played a real Saturn before, but the Dreamcast controller is the comfiest I've ever held. If the 3D controller is more comfortable, then it must be the greatest ever. The Dreamcast controller suffered from having two fewer buttons though

>>9566938
Retard
Nothing wrong with PC gaming

>>9566338
Whoda thunk that "face buttons" refers to the buttons – as a grouping – together on the façade. You might be fooling la migra but you ain't fooling me; you're ESL

>comfort
no

>>9566360
>Also speak three other languages, but that's a different conversation.
What 3 other languages, and how did you learn them?

>>9577324
Canadian, Australian, and British. The courses were provided in the target languages too, rather than American!

I love my Saturn and my DC, but not only do I think both of them are somewhat iffy controls I also actively dislike the Saturn 3d controller.

the DC controller feels super light and kinda chintzy, the d pad is squishy, and the angles on the back where you grip it all feel somewhat harsh. also the feel of the action on the triggers feels a bit grindy but perhaps brand new they didn't feel that way? I only got into DC in the mid 2000s. it's functional though, and it doesn't feel like my hands are resisting actively fleeing from it.

the Saturn controller on the other hand doesn't seem like it was made for human hands to grasp, it feels like grabbing a cereal bowl. also I've never really felt like the analog stick was comfy--maybe it's just me, but even with my large hands it always feels like pushing all the way up on it is overextending my thumb, or at least forcing my hand into a strange position, and the sheer travel distance on the thing just ends up feeling like a lot of wasted effort. I don't get where the acclaim comes from, I really only bring it out for Nights or when I'm playing multiplayer and I give it to player 2.

>>9566034
I sometimes forget there are some braineless people out there that actually pretend the DC didn't have a good controller. Better than anything else at that point until Xbox S and then 360.

>>9568934
If you are crippled with no hands, it is still worse.

>>9566938
Shut the fuck up
Dumb catposter

Nobody owned a Sega Saturn, so it doesn't exist.

>>9566102
It's the best Saturn pad, same size buttons, ultra comfortable, analog stick and triggers, great dpad, what's not to like.

>>9574569
It still felt really good. Not having select was not a problem and the dpad was mostly a non issue as barely any games used it and I didn't buy a gamecube for fighting games although it had a few good ones even if they were worse ports of dreamcast fighters.

>>9578236
you can't seriously think the DC controller is better than the original DualShock

>>9578724
I use my original Saturn 3D controller that I bought 20+ years ago for everything Sega related via raphnet adapter. Even for nes/snes because while I do have original controllers for those, the oem Nintendo controllers don’t feel as comfortable and the buttons are just not as good as what you get from Sega.

When I push my thumb into the dpad and spin it around, it rubs against the plastic a little bit and you feel a grainy friction. This isn't the case with a normal Saturn controller. That kind of encapsulates why I don't care for the dpad all that much on the 3d pad. It just feels cheaper or something

>>9580724
The dualshock is built for the hands of women and Asians. I need a Dreamcast controller

sony and microsoft really have a monopoly on good controller design lol

>>9580996
>I need my wrists to be in the cuff position to train for the future
OK

>>9568647
There was a review of a similar one
https://youtu.be/UtRqgszxZlg

>>9581050
When I hold a Dreamcast controller there is no negative space, it just seems into my palm. It's much like your sister's tits

>>9574602
>Not mentioning the retarded 8 way joystick engraving
Retard, that's one of the best parts of the cube controller. Can't play monkey ball on anything else.

>>9574569
Shitty arguments.
Except maybe for the lack of select.
But the concept of the game cube controller is basically to have primary and secondary controls.
You will instantly have access to the left stick, the A button and L and R, that's the main buttons.
Everything else is secondary, and you should be able to play without using them, or rarely.

Now, games developed for the console were not simple arcade games like Nintendo wanted.
So you needed to access more buttons, sometime at the same time. And, using a combination of B, X and Y was painful (like, literally sometimes).
No second Z button wasn't that problematic, but still, putting a "W" button on top of L couldn't hurt. Same as select, they probably wanted a simple af controller.
The C stick wasn't bad, as it was premilarly used for camera in basic games.. But when using in FPS, it needed a few time to adapt.

So, in a nutshell, yes, the gamecube controller design wasn't good, but not for the reasons you stated.
The controller was designed with a way of thinking in mind, as the whole console should have developed.
But the game developers didn't follow the Nintendo way of thinking (and it was a good thing, the developers were adapting to the marked and need of the players, they were merely doing what they could with what they have).
So, as usual, Nintendo had precise ideas about what the video game industry should be, and they failed to sense the market.
But, if you only take in account their vision, the controller was really good. Too bad their vision didn't match the reality.

>>9566034
This has got me wondering, which console of the two has more NOS (New Old Stock) lying around in warehouses and abandoned buildings to this day? By that I mean systems that were manufactured but not sold in stores. I myself am tempted strongly to say the dreamcast.

>>9582217
that just proves my picture right

>>9582428
>Can't just hold the stick in a single direction without moving, but instead sacrifice any smooth free movement you could have without having to hear the annoying clacking of 8 way engravings
The Saturn and dualshock understood this in the late 90's but aight

>>9583535
To add on top of that, it's shit for fighting games since any rotational moves feel like shit. But then again nintendies tend to not play actual fighting games, so that doesn't matter to them

>>9566034
Sega cultists are as dumb as Sega themselves.
Only good thing about Sega is Genesis.

>>9566034
3D pad makes Burning Rangers so much better

>>9583485
Why wouldn't you want a full feeling on your palm? That's a handgasm

>>9583953
not even fans of the dreamcast like the shape of the controller anon, if you really did have a big hand like you said, you definitely would not like it
the handles up to the triggers are super thin and my fingers cramp in behind the VMU slot, it's shape is unintuitive with your wrists
The lack of second stick, the poor stick that's already on there with a terrible dome top, the terrible dpad, the cord position on the bottom
I'm convinced that the only reason you like it is fanboyism
fuck man, even the 64 controller is better to use

>>9583980
>not even fans of the dreamcast like the shape of the controller anon
This statement is fake and gay
The Dreamcast controller is unmatched in comf, the Xbox Series X controller comes close but isn't quite there. Anyway I'm going to grope your sister again

>>9583991
deluded

>>9583980
>the cord position on the bottom
Meme that doesn't actually matter

>>9583997
of course it does, it increases wear on the cable and is counter intuitive to where you play, especially if your seat is a distance away from the TV

>>9583997
>>9584009
>they don't know about the notch on the underside of the controller that you can press the cord into to make point outward
ngmi

>>9584009
There's a groove you can wedge it into. I always gave it more clearance than this guy but at the end of the day the Dreamcast controller is sexy to hold. Just look at the back of it, you can really sink your grip into it

>>9584014
>>9584017
>a wearing point on your cables shielding
amazing

>>9566086
100% False.
1) The Saturn face 6 button is perfect for fighting games like Street Fighter.
2) The D-Pad is perfect, unlike the Dreamcast one.
3) I'm pretty sure Saturn had an analog stick long before the N64 launched.
4) The white and grey look looks aesthetically pleasing, unlike the PS1/N64.
5) The Dreamcast D-Pad sucks, can't even enter the codes correctly for Mortal Kombat Gold.
6) The triggers are great.
7) Never needed dual analog, most of the time the second analog stick is useless for most games.

>>9568396
I love that controller.

>>9584020
stuff made in Japan is infinitely better than stuff made in China

Here you go

>>9585814
dpad is still awful and it doesn't undo the retarded decision to remove 2 whole buttons for no reason

>>9585814
Is this real, deepfaked or photoshopped?

>>9586245
what?

>>9585814
that half-height VMU slot bothers me

>>9586245
gimped

>>9586245
no, it's real, retrofighters makes quite a few different retro controllers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfiGrnxIJKc

my preferred

>>9586674
I wonder what game the VMU is holding data for?

>>9586674
I've heard the build quality on those is really shoddy and the D-pad feels like crap.

The DC pad doesnt feel bad per se but... the genesis and saturn pads had god-tier ergonomics and the best d-pads bar none. I just don't understand why they changed that aspect.

>>9566120
absolutely terrible zit popping technique

is this a good thread to ask about the saturn controller that had the neo-geo style dpad? I think I've only even seen 2 images of it online

Dreamcast controller should have had 8 buttons.

>>9566034

>>9585814
is this thing actually good? its like 50bux
their saturn controller has a shit and fake analog stick and i regret spending 15bux on it

>>9566034
I unironically love the Dreamcast controller.

>>9578272
WTF, my Saturn just disappeared from my shelf!

>>9591037
>NOOOOO DON'T PUT MORE BUTTONS ON THE CONTROLLER, WE CAN'T USE SO MANY BUTTONS
>despite the fact that we used fewer than all of the buttons on every controller we've designed for for the last 3 generations, lol

>>9591103
Just get a Brook Wingman SD converter and use any other controller

>>9578272
Found the Austroon