/vr/ - Retro Games

The concept of a charged shot is such an obvious evolution of the core gameplay even a child would've had that idea if asked how to add new things to megaman.

>annoying sound when charged
>keeping the finger on the charge button the whole time is annoying
>made enemies more tanky and boring because the series started expecting you to charge all the time
tl;dr it's shit. Just should have made it even more over the top but require some sort of ammo

>>9519918
People are too dumb to realize but it's one of the reasons 2 and 3 are the most popular ones with things just going downhill from there

>>9519903
>there is no gameplay reason for having a button to charge the megabuster.
how about the fact that i like my games to require a fun level of player input and you removing the charge is removing input that makes the game enjoyable to play

next you're going to tell me to play racing games in automatic instead of manual

>>9519926
It might be even worse; I bet he likes Kirby Air Ride's controls.

In any game, if a shot can be charged up without any downsides, the game should do so automatically. Otherwise it's just extra inputs for no mechanical complexity.

Same for autofire.

>>9519926
So you want bad game design because you are so hyperactive you need at minimum three button presses at any given time

>>9519994
it's not bad game design because your babby thumbs can't handle pressing two buttons at worse

>>9520001
once*

>>9520002
jajajaja your sausage fingers can't even type. probably too fat not to accidentally press two face buttons, no wonder you like it

>>9519926
Not to mention a charged shot option lets you choose between peppering a boss with normal shots or dodging their attacks and gambling on landing one well placed shot that deals more damage. It's a good mechanic.

>>9520058
>Boss has I-frames for 3 seconds regardless if it's a lemon or a fully charged shot

Yeah buddy great fucking mechanic. Peak strategery.

>>9520073
Then why are you complaining about agame mechanic you're literally not forced to use, you retarded "jajaja"ing nigger?

>>9520079

>>9519903
>the same effect can be achieved by having the first shot be a charged shot, and each following shot be the weaker pellet shot until you stop firing
How long would you have to wait for the charge shot to be ready to go again? The same as it takes to charge it normally? Okay, but you'd need some sort of visual or audio indication of when it's charged, leading to the sound and blinking again
I say just get rid of the charge entirely. Keep the slide, though, genuinely my biggest complaint with 9 and 10 is that they got rid of it

>>9519903
Because of the charging shot I don't even bother messing with the bosses weapons like I do in mm1-3

>>9519903
Charged shot but you can do it with a command input like qcf or double forward for a half charge.
Hire me capcom.

>>9520103
but then how would X do the hadouken

>>9520121
2x qcf

>>9520121
sonic boom motion

>>9520121
plug in super scope

>>9519903
Good idea. Maybe separate charging from attacking by assigning it to a separate button like triggers.
>>9519969
>Same for autofire.
Now that I think about it, you're right. It's the exact same mechanic.
>>9519926
>play racing games in automatic instead of manual
You have to pay attention to when to change gears. Where as with charging shot there is no thinking involved. It just hurt your thumb and destroy soundtrack.
>>9520093
It's fine to flash until charge is finished. Sound could be used as to indicate charge levels, but isn't necessary. You can't get rid of charge as some of them were designed with that in mind.

Compare Metroid ZM's pistol:
>auto-charge
>charge meter
>no flashing character
>no charging audio

I've thought about this too. I think the best way to handle it would be to make the charge shot have additional quirk to it. Like a limited range or having an arc to it.

That way the normal shots are the long range spam attacks, and the charge shots are powerful, but demand you to get in close and risk your ass for the big damage.

>>9520205
I like how the weapon is handled. But the pistol is a stunning tool more than anything else, the uncharged shots don't even damage enemies.

>>9519903
Get a foot pedal and assign the charge button to it if you are on pc

>>9520205
I enjoy flashing Mega Man, but it should stop flashing when charged to max. It's the sound and holding down attack button is the issue.

>>9520214
It'd be kinda interesting to have a "lock" of sorts after you fully charge the buster. So then the next time you hit the fire button, you fire the charge shot

>>9519903
I'm dead certain I played some older game where your first shot was a big powerful one and it would taper off to a peashooter if you kept spamming it without letting it recharge. I think it had some other odd gimmick where you could stand in strategically located energy beams or something and spam full power shots. I'm drawing a complete blank on the name though.

if you don't see situations in which lemons are better than charged shots and vice versa, you don't play enough mega man to be part of this discussion

>>9520229
There is no situation in any non-X game in which the first shot being a pellet is better than a charged shot. They are identical in everything but the size of the hitbox and their damage value. Several former-Capcom employees who worked on early Megaman games realized this, which is why every post-MM game, including 9 and 10, don't have charged shots.

>>9519903
No, it's a skill the player needs to get good at. It requires dexterity and timing.

>>9520248
If you think holding a button takes dexterity then you probably aren't healthy enough to be trying to push buttons on a controller.

>>9520229

lol name one

Are there hacks that remove the charge up sound effect?

How hard would it be to make rom hack to; remove charging sound, add auto charge, switch between auto charge/no charge for classic or X games.

>>9520246
>which is why every post-MM game, including 9 and 10, don't have charged shots.
What? They all have charged shots

>>9520246
>There is no situation in any non-X game in which the first shot being a pellet is better than a charged shot.
In situations you dont have time to wait to charge up and an enemy is close to you? Not to mention you can have 3 of them on screen at a time

I hate you stupid fucking "theory gamers" trying to fix games you haven't played by making absolutely nonsensical changes

>>9520256
Shooting through a line of enemies, dipshit.

Because you don't always want to fire a charge shot so why would you not want to have control over charging it?

I think the charge shot was a natural addition to the series but they definitely could have accounted for the difficulty a bit more. It feels more at home in MMX where you're dashing around and plowing through enemies.

Charged shots brought increased enemy resistance to damage for balancing, because pellets being able to kill anything that isn't a boss in 2 seconds tops is far easier to do than waiting for one charged shot every 2 seconds because you're shooting nonstop.

>>9520573
>Because you don't always want to fire a charge shot

You still haven't named a single example of not wanting your first shot in to be a charged shot.

>>9519917
You have to be a child to think "BIG COOL SHOOT PEW PEW" is an obvious evolution of the core gameplay. In order for it to be balanced, every enemy will just have increased health. All it means is there's no point in using uncharged pellets—is that a good thing?

>>9519926
Choosing to not press a button at a given time is also an active, meaningful gameplay decision

>>9520103
You can do that in MMZ4

>>9520634
You don't have to use a charged shot every time. You can use regular shots and you can use special weapons. If you're just waiting to charge shots constantly then you're playing inefficiently.

You do realize this is Mega Man, right? You know, the series that encourages you to play in different ways?

>>9520286
>In situations you dont have time to wait to charge up and an enemy is close to you?
You will do more damage by walking away from them and charging

>>9519903
agreed. charged shots are for midwits.

>>9520643
When would I want to start a volley with an uncharged pellet

>>9520615
If you didn't have enough time to charge a charge shot because you had just been using your charge button finger on a jump?

>>9520646
The longer you drag out the fight the more likely it is that you'll eat an attack and die. Doing less damage immediately is more preferable than gambling on a charge shot if you're a real human playing a game and not a machine.

>>9520634
Yes I was a child when I thought "BIG COOL SHOOT PEW PEW" and thus megaman was a pretty cool series for me. Megaman has no shortage of broken weapons that kill everything even faster than charged shots (like metal blade). Either way I'm glad you're seething over this as much as you are, unable to change history that doesn't appeal to you.
Fucking retard.

>>9520662
Literal nigger low time preference low IQ thought. I guess I see where charged shit fans are coming from now

>>9520668
>Literal nigger low time preference low IQ thought.

No, no, I explained my position. Explain why that's wrong. I think you can't.

>>9520662
Literal nigger low time preference low IQ thought. I guess I see where charged shot fans are coming from now. As for me, I'll play a game that's always fun from never asking me to stop what I'm doing and charge

>>9520674
>why that's wrong
I just did
You said yourself you'd rather get a pissweak shot now than wait a second to BLFKSJSJWJEJRJRNA your enemy. Would you rather get a hundred bucks right now or a million tomorrow?

>>9520674
He even sage'd in the wrong field, how ironic.

>>9520678
You mean high time preference, fucktard.

>>9520685
And used the exact opposite of the term that he meant, while insulting other's intelligence. He better be baiting, because this is beyond embarrassing.

>>9520678
>I'll play a game that's always fun from never asking me to stop what I'm doing and charge
You don't have to stop what you're doing to charge though.

lmao, you're shit at mega man

>>9520690
literally can't shoot
Eat my shit

>>9520689
Oh no I didn't use the gay proscribed terminology, that means the abstract concept I'm describing is invalid

>>9520694
>literally can't shoot
But you can chose not to charge

lmao you're shit at logic too. Your mom must be deeply ashamed

>>9520694
Self portrait post

>>9520698
Lmao okay Plato, I see you have many tactical grounds to open your flurries with uncharged shots

>>9520682
>Would you rather get a hundred bucks right now or a million tomorrow?

Again, dumbfuck, it isn't guaranteed that I'll live to see tomorrow in this example.

Charged shots are only better than lemons if you're able to dodge perfectly. It's better to capitalize on a vulnerability window with a weak shot if you can't guarantee you'll see that vulnerability again to capitalize on it with a hard one.

>>9520708
*a charged one

>>9520708
>it isn't guaranteed that I'll live to see tomorrow in this example
If you're gonna get hurt anyway then the best way to cut your losses is to use the i-frames on charging lmao. And given boss i-frames, if they have more than 1 HP then your effort is futile anyway. If you're gonna die yourself on the next hit then get better at the game

>>9520703
>Lmao okay Plato
Plato would almost certainly understand Mega Man better than you. You seem to know as much about it as he does now.

schizo thread

>>9520715
Plato could probably understand why 2 is more fun than 4 lmao
Any game with a Z Saber is also more fun than 4

>>9520713
>If you're gonna get hurt anyway then the best way to cut your losses is to use the i-frames on charging lmao.
but you don't know if you're going to get hurt or not. If you were capable of operating with that level of precision you'd only use charge shots, but the players of the game are human.
>And given boss i-frames, if they have more than 1 HP then your effort is futile anyway.
Not it they're jumping away from you or something and you have time to get a quick shot in. If you tried to charge at that point then they'd already be attacking again and you missed your opportunity to do little damage and are rewarded with none.
>If you're gonna die yourself on the next hit then get better at the game
You keep proving my point that you're expecting perfect decision making from players. Lemons are good for taking potshots, and potshots are only a good strategy for players that are still getting a hang of learning the fights. But many, many players will still use those lemons to beat bosses while in the middle of the learning process.

>>9520720
>Plato could probably understand why 2 is more fun than 4 lmao
And be smart enough to realize it has fuckall to do with charging, unlike yourself.

>>9520726
>you don't know if you're going to get hurt or not
Laws of motion; yes you do
>Not it they're jumping away from you
Then they have i-frames. By the time they land and you got a clear shit again, you could have charged up to end the fight sooner
>you're expecting perfect decision making from players
Go play Cookie Clicker then

>>9520731
>clear shot again
Which you can't make cause of i-frames

>>9520718
MM4 filtered almost everyone here.

>>9520731
>Laws of motion; yes you do
No sorry, but you're saying that nobody should take damage while playing megaman. It's so unrealistic a proposition that I have to think you're just being obstinate at this point.
>Then they have i-frames.
If they just attacked and then jumped away, they will not have iframes.

>>9520740
>but you're saying that nobody should take damage while playing megaman
Never said that, I did however say you should get better
>they will not have IFrames
The iframes from 3 onwards ruined every game until MMZ tech

>>9519903
This is why true magaman games know that MM2 is the best game, closely followed by MM3, and all other games (including from the X, Y and Z serieses) are not worth playing.

>>9520206
Rockman World V kinda did that.

I agree with OP. I especially hate it in the Devil May Cry games since they have more complex controls and a 3D camera to deal with. There's no reason not to be charging it so why need I hold a button? Its so dumb

>>9520738
Cossack theme 2 was a banger but the game was hot garbage, the Wily maps were an embarrassment.

>>9519918
>>annoying sound when charged
>console has limited sound channels
>sounds work hard to use what they have available to them
>some bonehead in 1991
>HEY GUYS YOU KNOW WHAT ONE OF THOSE SOUND CHANNELS SHOULD BE DEDICATED TO
>https://www.youtube.com/shorts/4eUsiOCV7-Y

>>9521256
https://youtu.be/xEK_ZfhEfG4?t=14
b-but muh megaman 2 kino

I agree that it did more harm than good

>>9519903
Objectively correct, which is why the best MM games don't have a charged Mega Buster. Chargefags can mald all they want, but it's been gone since 9 and it's never coming back.

>>9520663
>Either way I'm glad you're seething over this as much as you are, unable to change history that doesn't appeal to you.
THAT'S WHAT YOU THINK NIGGER.
https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/5764/

>>9519926
>next you're going to tell me to play racing games in automatic instead of manual
What is Pole Position?

>>9520227
>I'm dead certain I played some older game where your first shot was a big powerful one and it would taper off to a peashooter if you kept spamming it without letting it recharge.
>>9519969
>In any game, if a shot can be charged up without any downsides, the game should do so automatically. Otherwise it's just extra inputs for no mechanical complexity.
>>9520205
>Compare Metroid ZM's pistol:
>>auto-charge
Final Fantasy for the Gameboy had a "willpower bar" so if you waited for it to fill to the top your hits would be more powerful.

>>9520275
>he hasn't played MegaMan 9 and 10

>>9520678
>Literal nigger low time preference low IQ thought
>>9520686
>You mean high time preference, fucktard.
I really hate the counter-intuitive language surrounding those terms. It should have been "short time preference" and "long time preference." Who came up with low/high?

>>9520656
>If you didn't have enough time to charge a charge shot because you had just been using your charge button finger on a jump?
I play on a keyboard, so I can always have a finger laying on the J key (Y-button, charge) while my middle finger lays on the K key (B-button, jump)

>>9519903
Fuck off OP
The Mega Man 2 cult needs to die

There's this quirk with Megaman 4-6 where the charging sound won't play under certain conditions, like, if the channel is busy playing something else at the moment when the charging sound should start playing. You can achieve this for example, by letting go of a charge then pressing the button again right after, if you time and aim it right, you'll start charging when the channel is busy playing the hit/explosion sound and you'll get a silent charge that lasts until you let go. Lately when I do buster only replays of those games I try to time my shots to get silent charges as much as I can, so I can enjoy the music more. It's a fun little diversion from just playing the regular way.

I believe the channel also gets muted during screen transitions so you can time it with those too? I don't know all the details to be honest, but I wonder if any of those autists that like to dissect game code have ever figured out the exact conditions during which this happens, would be fun to know.

>>9520656
The human thumb is large enough to hold shoot with the distal phalanx and tap jump with the interphalangeal joint. Okay I just realised you were making fun of the charge shot crowd, never mind

>>9521639
I agree, but charge shots aren't how you own the screwattack millennials; you own them with Zero/ZX

>>9521624
>Who came up with low/high?
Me, so I could laugh at retards who use words without looking them up.

>>9521810
>Me, so I could laugh at retards who use words without looking them up.
>:(

>>9519923
It's a shame, because the reason is not just the charge shot, those games are different in how they're designed. Even if you don't like the charge shot, 4 still lacks things like the Doc Robots, undodgeable Wily Machine orbs, Wily Stage 4 turret boss and many other things. 2 and 3 both jump in difficulty from being extremely easy to stupidly hard at random and while 2 has at least some restraint, 3 goes from the mostly balanced Robot Master stages, then the Doc Robots which are some of the hardest things in the series, and then the pathetically easy Wily Castle. 4 might have faults but it's a consistent game.

You don't need to charge it all the time. Quick normal shots are often more effective, even for bosses. Charged shot mostly works for groups or evading enemies where you need a bigger range of shot.

>>9522976
anon, the point is that there is no reason to not charge it all the time. that's why it's gone.

>>9523012
>there is no reason to not charge it all the time.
except for the scenarios pointed out in the post you're currently responding to

>>9523012
>that's why it's gone.
What the actual fuck are you talking about? Is this a bot? How much of this worthless thread is just bots?

>>9519903

I tried to start the megaman series with megaman 1 on NES. It's so fucking hard.

>>9521281
I kinda forgot you have to charge Heat Man's weapon in MM2.
>>9523012
Mega Mans starting on 9 are retarded achievement hunter games and aren't worth playing, but you are the same tards that whine about Mega Man & Bass being too shit and too hard because Bass doesn't a have a charged shot. Where are these complaints that the standard buster should have multi-directional shooting like Bass & Metal Man's weapon? That's been done by games without charged shots like Contra & Super Castlevania IV compared to this low IQ whining about sound channels.

>>9523285
>same tards that whine about Mega Man & Bass being too shit and too hard because Bass doesn't a have a charged shot
IT GETS THE NOGGIN JOGGIN

>>9522976
Auto charge wouldn't stop you being able to do that.

People arguing for automatic charging talk as if bigger shot is always better. It’s not.
Some enemies respond differently to being hit constantly vs sparse high damage shots.
Charged shots are not beneficial when precission is needed: blocking shields, destroyable blocks you don’t want to destroy, etc.
Besides, rapid firing uncharged shots is still a faster DPS againt regular enemies. It’s a choice between covering more space/taking longer vs. straight up dealing damage.

Not taking advantage of the uncharged/charged shots differences is a stage and enemy design fault, not a problem with the mechanic itself.

>>9523285
Mega Man 9 is great. Just because it modeled itself after 2 doesn't make it bad.

>>9523539
>That damage rate
It's like a japanese MMO
What a fucking mess of a game

>>9524306
>People arguing for automatic charging talk as if bigger shot is always better. It’s not.
I think these people haven't actually played mega man and just watched someone else play it because 20 minutes in any mega man game after 4 shows you that both shots have their usage.

>>9524315
Bass has more movement options, but has to last longer in battle. Not a bad tradeoff. If you want shorter, higher stake battles, you can still play as Mega Man.

>>9524313
Modelling itself after 2, and fixing the most obvious problems with that game too, is in fact a very good thing.

>>9524306
>Some enemies respond differently to being hit constantly vs sparse high damage shots.
And how would automatic charging prevent that?

>>9523285
>>9524313
>>9524330
Mega Man 9 is the most fun and replayable for me. It’s the one where my experience of the game changed the most after learning everything each weapon can do, re-thinking stage orders based on that, etc. I love it.
Criticism on the achievements is fair, some get pretty ridiculous (ex, calculating damage values to end each boss battle with exactly 1hp, wtf), but you can just ignore them. But some of them are also pretty nice ideas for challenges. You can ignore them, if you don’t care for them.

>>9524331
Are you literally stupid? It means that if he needs a lemon, the auto charge shot is going to ruin that because it's going to be an auto charged blast instead of a lemon.

>>9520634
These games were made for children, yes.

>>9524349
If you hammer the button you still get lots of lemons. Enemies would have to respond differently to single lemons and single charge shots for what he's saying to make sense.

>>9524356
Or

We can just play the game as it exists now and I can use lemons where I want to and charge when i need to because i am not a 3 year old child that has a difficult time holding a button down

>>9524360
I accept your concession.

>>9524364
Not an argument, idiot

>>9519903
>free up audio channels that are wasted on the constant charging sound effect
That's why the sound effect fades away in Mega Man Maker, which made me thankful

>>9520615
Not who you're replying to, but beyond its greater damage output, the charge shot also has a wider hitbox (after MM4) and doesn't allow you to fire any lemons until it leaves the screen. As such, there are more than a few situations where not starting off with a charge shot is the better play:
>Groups of weak, vertically-stacked enemies
>Bosses with unpredictable vertical movement (laying down a 'spread' of lemons gives you better odds of hitting them)
>Enemies with small weak points
>Enemies that have to be 'revealed' (like the barrels from MM6) before becoming vulnerable
>Enemies that you have to repel by firing shots at their invulnerable points (think the gorilla midboss from MM6)

The main issue here is that several games in the series deliberately avoid these kinds of situations, instead promoting gameplay where the charge shot is always the ideal option. MM5 is particularly bad about this - almost every stage includes low-lying enemies that can only be hit with charge shots, and the stage layout gives you ample time to prepare shots in between enemy waves.

>>9524528
good post

I think everybody now knows how they feel about the drawbacks of charging (if they feel there are any).

Now, what are actually the benefits of having the mechanic? I say it looks badass

>>9524691
Yeah charged shots are badass. It's just OP who doesn't like them due to having less testosterone than an 80 year old man.

>>9521597
>removing MM4's charge shot
It didn't feel very powerful to begin with so that wouldn't bother me. Love the charge shot in MM5 and 6 though.

i had no idea you could get betas to mald this hard just by pointing out that charge shot in the shitty megaman games was pointless. it's like discovering a brand new button to push that was always there.
anyway, your crutch is dead.

>>9524691
Feel good, holding longer for more power is as intuitive as it gets. Adds variety. Gives enemy and stage mechanics a significant characteristic to work with, as various posts have noted. Games take a better advantage of this. MM&B particularly uses it to make a strong distinction between power vs. speed and mobility.

That being said, there is room for games with and without it. Mega Man 9 is a better game or its decision to ditch it in favor of designing enemies and stages around a more useful set of special weapon.


It’s also worth noting that contrarianism isn’t a virtue nor a sign of better judgement. It will not help you become a woman.

>>9524784
You didn't point out anything.

Charge was useless and it's dead for a reason. Sliding, however, actually adds something to the gameplay and should have stayed.

I like the recoil it has in IV and 11 (with Power Gear).
11 might be my favorite implementation of it, because you're not wasting your time by keeping it charged as you go through the stage. Enemies can be guard-broken and left open for pellets, which is pretty satisfying.

The dash shot in MMX1 solves everything being complained about.

>>9519903
You make two points.

First that they could just automate the charging. There was a power up that did this in one of the later SNES games. There have been non-Megaman games that do this, many mobile games do it because they are so pressed for reducing input. So I know how this plays and you can know it too. Second that you could free up a sound channel by making the whole thing an automated process in the background.

The reason you are wrong on both is that actually press the button and hearing the extra sounds makes such a different in how the game feels. It's just more impactful and immersive compared to the games without it. You'd be throwing away something important and gaining very little if anything.

Your thread reinforces the idea that the average gamer, even the average one who has played a bajillion games at high level, can really just be fucking retarded when it comes to art direction.

>>9525225
>muh gamefeel

Everyone is bitching about how the charging effects are annoying, how does it feel to be on the wrong side of history?

>>9525260
>Everyone

>>9525279
Yes, literally everyone except you. Are you upset about your lack of taste that you have no rebuttal? Because that's fine, I accept your concession.

>>9525319
>Yes, literally everyone except you.
That's objectively wrong given the makeup of this thread.

>>9525332
It's alright to admit when you're wrong, friend. That's part of being an adult :)

>continuously and purposely putting sage in the wrong field
>continuously repeating the braindead assessment that charge/slide is 'dead' when they exist in 11
Stop responding to this shitty bait thread, you fucking retards.

>>9525459
That was left over from shitposting in another board, my bad.

>holding a button to make a noise for the whole game means i have skill
I never realized how retarded charging was until reading the shitters in this thread lmao

is it really useless if it helps bad players feel like they're doing something? that in of itself is value even if it doesn't objectively change anything.

>there is no reason to ever not hold the charge
>it makes an annoying sound while you hold it
Looks like you just contradicted yourself. You said there's no reason, and then immediately gave an excellent reason. Actually, the constant annoying sound IS the payoff for keeping a charged shot ready.

Yes there is. It gives you a choice to prepare. Any auto-charge should be a powerup. Making the first shot a charge shot with no player choice trivializes the enemy and you might as well remove it (and every subsequent one), or you have to buff its health.

>>9521619
>what is protoman?

>>9527384
Oh cool the DLC side character

>>9528587
Doesn't make it not part of the game. And you can just pirate the DLC so no excuses lmao

>>9519917
>"BIG COOL SHOOT PEW PEW"