/vr/ - Retro Games

The repetitive rooms are the point. You're supposed to feel like a rat in a maze. You're on a hostile alien planet. The repetitive rooms make you second-guess where you actually are.

it's so hard to work up the effort to dive into a game and start doing it but man there's no better or more immersive experience than mapmaking as you play. great memories doing this in kings field, was actually disappointed that they actually give you a map in II.

>>9496604
It's a lot more tiring to do for a game like Metroid when compared with games like Wizardry that give you easy mapping aides, such as spells that tell you your exact coordinates.

>>9496583
>The game is supposed to not be fun, that's why it's fun.
In Metroid II, the feeling of linearly going deeper into the planet while passing through smaller non-linear areas works a lot better without a map.
The original Metroid is just tiring and frustrating without a map, boring if you make your own map, and pointless if you look up a map.
It's just not a very good game and they monumentally improved it as soon as the second entry.

I never bothered making a map for Metroid, the maze layout always felt logical enough to me that I could just have it in my head.

There's a romhack that adds an automap to Metroid 1, but I dunno, I feel like if the devs wanted you to have a map then they would've given you a map. It's not like automapping was a foreign technology in 1986, because that shit was in Ultima 3 three years earlier, and Legend of Zelda on NES also had a map the same year.

>>9496571
> how repetitive this game's rooms are
that's how you make such a "big game" in 1986 with 128 kilobytes. not gigabytes. not megabytes. 1/6 of a megabyte. Think about that.

It's so obvious that people that think Metroid is repetitive have never played any exploration adventure older than it.

This game is really short and not very hard. I didn't make a map, the worlds are small. I just explored and consulted a pdf start guide if I got stuck like I imagined a child would do. This game is maybe 4 regular play sessions long lol. I think it's a mistake to compare it to the other titles with the large maps and map interface. And I don't think it aged poorly. As a random guy who just played it a few weeks ago

>>9496583
I'm getting really tired of this NES worship. The games suck.

>>9496571
Show your map, I like seeing people do stuff like that themselves

>>9496803
I played Ultima 4, which came out a year earlier, and that game does not suffer from what repetition it has. Sure, it's an RPG and not a pure adventure game, but it still counts.
>>9496840
Here's what I've got for Brimstar so far. I'm making it with Grid Cartographer because I was already using GC for Wizardry. The software wasn't designed for sidescrollers, and the map itself is really sloppy in many ways (how many squares I use to represent a room's size is a completely arbitrary crapshoot on my part, for example). But it gets the job done for navigating through the game. I expect to have the whole game mapped out by tomorrow.

Here's my map of Norfair so far. Here you can see what I was talking about in the OP about the same fucking room with the missiles. All the treasure chests represent missile upgrades. And I swear there's at least one more room like that which I missed in mapping.

>>9496890
The brinstar map kinda shows what I was saying earlier. This isn't a particularly complicated layout, is this really something you need a detailed map to remember? It's just three hallways stacked on top of each other and some extra crap on the side, even Zelda 2 had more complex temples than that.

>>9496929
It's helpful for replaying the game from the beginning to get better times for the secret endings.

>>9496625
any mapping done for a game that's not grid based is gonna be a bit of a bitch, but I like it, trying to plan it out and intelligently guess ahead of the map so you have space for everything to fit together logically. I do own multiple cartography books though so it's possible I'm just autistic.

>>9496831
That's because most of them are meant to be solved like puzzles and are not games in the modern day sense anon. I mean there are clearly exceptions like SMB3, but I feel like this is the part of old school game design that indie devs are often ignoring. La Mulana being a possible exception. Hell even Castlevania and Ninja Gaiden have a bit of a puzzle element when you consider that finding out holy water or spin slash eats through bosses.

>>9496571
The repetition is intentional, it's meant to mess with your mind.

>>9496831

Taboo: The Sixth Sense literally predicted you would say that. You are subordinate to the NES

>>9497194
this meme was funnier when it was unforced. adjust your approach and you may yet elicit a laugh from me. aim for subtle

>>9496704
I always found it impressive how Metroid II is able to give you a good sense of direction despite having such a large and open world. As long as you're paying attention it's difficult to get lost.

>>9496571
zero missions exists for a reason and its an awesome mix of metroid and metroid prime atmo

retard thread

>>9497559
It's VERY linear and railroads you with lava in the main tunnel until you exterminate enough metroids. There is no reason to backtrack afterwards either because you find pretty much everything you need while exploring those "caves" to find metroids. Not to say it's bad or something, just doesn't play like the other ones.

>>9496791
Criminally underrated post

>>9497631
Zero Mission exists because dumb zoomzooms need handholding.

>>9496831
You like it so much you are here posting in this thread. Solving captchas. You cpuld be doing anything else, but here you are.

>>9497693
Areas 1, 2, 3 and 6 on your map are reasonably open and about as complex as any given area in Metroid 1. But you're right, the main tunnel provides a consistent reference point.

>>9496791
1/8th a megabyte, you mong.

>>9497449
That's a meme?

>>9496571
Yeah (early) nes games were hardware limited as fuck. Tiny cartsizes meant lots of assert reuse.

If NES Metroid has repetitive stage layouts because of the limitations of the tech, then how come Dragon Quest came out in the same year and had a big open world with several unique towns and dungeons? It wasn't tech limitations that made Metroid have the player jump up and down the same fucking shafts for the entire game.

>>9496583
>You're supposed to feel like a rat in a maze
in what world is this supposed to be fun

>>9497763
The oldest zoomers would've been 7 years old when Zero Mission came out. I highly doubt that was the target audience.

>>9498164
> but dragon quest
because they had to program more than menus lol

>>9496604
>they actually give you a map in II.
No they didn't.

>>9498203
>he plays games for fun
low IQ

>>9496583
Ah yes, just like how the Library in Halo is good level design because it's supposed to make you want to fuck off and never come back

>>9496571
I adore this game, and I'm tired of hearing boomers and zoomies both bitch about it. No other game gives me the same feeling as when I finally make it into the Mother Brain boss room after blindly feeling my way through the game. It's lurking there, and breathing, and it's been watching you the whole time. I've beaten this game without guides several times, never ever looked up a map, and honestly it's easier to do blind than even tLoZ is, imo. It's like Simon's Quest, some youtuber bitched about it once and now nobody gives it a shot because it's easier to just accept someone else's opinion than to form your own. Super Metroid also kind of overshadows it in many ways, but I still maintain Super never made it redundant. Severely underrated classic, a perfect microcosm of the Metroid series in general.

>>9499180
I bought it from Funcoland and hated it. All they had to do was refill your health after you die and it would've been a decent game. I also hate how the best strategy is to avoid the enemies

>>9499087
>he didn't turn off his ps2 when colonel told him to
ngmi

This game lets you play as Samus in her underwear so it's the best one

>>9498369
? yes they did, I was playing it just last week. the pixy's mirror or whatever it's called

>>9499186
As zoomies say, sounds like a skill issue.
But really, yes it sucks if you die on MB and have to restock. But it makes the first attempt that much more toe-curling and intense. The first time I fought MB was exciting, and so was the tenth, because of that decision alone. It punishes failure heavily, but it never ends the game for you. A determined player can easily kill MB without taking a hit, if they choose to keep trying the fight rather than stock up on health. It's really a big defenseless creature, once you figure out how to freeze the spaghetti-o beams. And there are good spots to replenish your supplies nearby, as well as an E-tank very conspicuously placed near the entrance to the fight. I think that particular detail alone proves it was a conscious, deliberate decision, and I consider it to be effective and fun.
Of course, I first bought the game when I was like fifteen, and I've always enjoyed a stiff but fair challenge in my games, so I can understand a 7 year old being really, really frustrated with it if they're used to more beginner-friendly fare. But a plunge into the depths of a hellish, alien environment where every living thing is hostile and a biomechanical supercomputer is observing your every move should absolutely not be beginner friendly, no matter what modern games would have you believe with their onscreen tutorials that stay there until the credits roll. It's beyond a cliché at this point, but they do not makes games like this one anymore. Some will be pleased about that fact. I am not. But I'm happy I still get to play this game.

>>9498203
>>9499087
While I don't want to defend Metroid 1 the fact is anti fun can make a game more fun.
>Don't Move

>>9499286
How does Metroid go to the bathroom is his suit?

>>9499330
Bathroom matter is converted to circular energy globules and excreted from gun.

if the game didnt make you restart with 30 health and you could swap between ice/wave beam, this game would be much more highly regarded. the lack of a map is a literal nonissue

>>9496583
Soo its supposed to be shit?

>>9499350
>and you could swap between ice/wave beam
I'm this >>9499180 >>9499286 anon, and I would say this is the only change I feel the game could benefit from. It would be a lot more fun and cooler.

>>9496823
It didn’t take long to get it down to under an hour. I think it’s harder for people these days to focus on one thing for a few days with all the distractions available.

>>9496973
This man speaks truth. I didn’t look at a lot of things people consider as cheesing the game these days as unfair. I just thought it was stuff I was supposed to figure out.

>>9499330
Girls don't poop.

>>9499494
Metroid is a dude, didn't you read the manual? Also he's a cyborg so it's ok to assume rockets are his feces

>>9499180
In the past few years I gave games that I never gave a chance to a fair shot. I played Zelda II, Simon's Quest, and Metroid to completion without guides while drawing my own maps.
My opinion is that Zelda II is a great game,, Simon's Quest is fun, but kind of shit, and Metroid 1 is not fun.
Maybe drawing a map was a mistake for Metroid, but it was fun for the other two games.

>>9499825
Metroid's manual advises you to draw your own map, so I think the game was made with it in mind. And it'd be pretty hard to get the secret endings without either drawing your map or playing the game an inordinate amount of times, going through tons of trial and error, and memorizing the whole thing.

>>9496791
your math sucks but this is the real point. the devs did a lot with very little space to work with

>>9499286
this anon gets it. you just had to be there without the context that comes from later titles

>>9496583
>> Tanaka's greatest contribution to game music comes, paradoxically, in the form of silence. He was arguably the first videogame composer to emphasize the absence of sound in his music. Tanaka's score is an embodiment of isolation and atmospheric effect—one that penetrates deeply into the emotions.

Andrew Schartmann, Maestro Mario: How Nintendo Transformed Videogame Music into an Art, Thought Catalog (2013)

OP here, beat the game and mapped out almost the whole thing. I got the second best ending, which would be pretty good for my first attempt, but I started over from the beginning a bunch while I was mapping. This is a fun game but I don't know how good it'd be if you went it blind without making a map.

>>9499258
Sorry, I'm an idiot.

>>9498203
Exploring a labyrinthian maze to get lost in seems like the greatest sense of adventure you can have. I am dying for more games like that. If people played games for fun and immersion rather than expecting to just beat something brainlessly so that they can post it on the internet for big boy points, more people would come to appreciate metroid nes.

>>9501140
Being lost isn't fun, but finding your way is, so games need to be balanced carefully to make sure you don't stay lost for too long.
The only way I found to not get lost too much in Metroid was to draw a map, but doing so felt tedious because the world is too repetitive.
Maybe you didn't need a map and the game struck a good balance for you, but that was not my experience.

>>9502124
most people don't stay lost for too long. you have like two abilities and three tasks to do in the game. it's not rocket science. and making sure the player doesn't stay lost too long is the shitty philosophy we have now that's made it so games can be beaten by someone on a weeklong heroin binge who also doesn't have any arms, legs, or eyes.

>>9502158
No, the problem is that modern games don't let you get lost at all.
A game where you're always lost is just as unfun as a game where you're never lost. The balance is key and I don't know how you can possibly refute that.

>>9496571
Was Pitfall released for the NES? Why is it the symbol of Adventure Series?

>>9502170
i guess i'm not refuting it so much as saying your broad statement invites a lot of bad interpretation. worrying about the player being lost "too long" is exactly what is wrong with modern games, because in modern times "the player" is not a person who plays video games, nor are they interested in an adventure. they are now the average of basically all humans on earth, which is to say they are stupid, not curious, not creative, and very afraid of the unknown. i don't like describing game developing philosophy in terms of what the general experience is going to be for "the player." it should be what you hope to accomplish in the medium. if i could be forgiven for comparing games to movies, david lynch does not worry about the viewer "getting lost," but michael bay does. michael bay will probably make more money, but his art, if it could be called that, will not accomplish what lynch's would accomplish. in thirty years, people will be watching lynch's movie, and bay's will be all but forgotten. all these modern game experiences people are having will be gone like tears in rain, scoob, because the total lack of challenge stops you from having any memorable moments. all this because we mustn't let "the player" get lost too long.

>>9502208
just wanted to add to my post, if you worry about this collective "player" getting lost for "too long," you might as well do away with bathrooms, because they probably get lost on their way there. expressions like "too long" mean nothing in this context. metroid on nes doesn't aim to have you get lost for a determined amount of time, there's no sweet spot they were aiming for for how long a player doesn't know where to go. it places you in a maze, and it says go, that's it. any amount of time you get lost is on you. if it's too long, you have the choice to either keep trying and therefore develop more as a player (maybe even develop your irl sense of direction) or find a different game to play that's more to your taste.

>>9502225
damn bro
are you always like this after beating a 30 year old game made for children?

>>9502283
i don't know whether i should point you in the direction of /v/ or reddit.
>ebonics and generic apathetic response when someone starts to point out how dumb the average person is and how art shouldn't be aimed at this average person
reddit, i guess.

>>9502301
reddit people didn't like me calling video games what they are (toys for children) and saying nigger for 3rd time

>>9502340
i guess you really don't belong anywhere then, do you?

>>9502340
Big difference in Where the Wild Things Are and the Raven, there guy. Just like Leapfrog and say: Reddit Hill or Metal Gear Reddit (you were going to type it anyway).

>>9497996
Kilobytes used to be worth more before inflation.

>>9502208
Agreed

>>9496704
>tiring and frustrating without a map, boring if you make your own map, and pointless if you look up a map.
I haven't played Metroid yet, but this is very relatable criticism. I felt this way playing FF1 and FF2. The dungeons are so straight-forward that making a map is tedious, and you skip all of the dead-ends and pointlessness if you use a pre-made map (and the difficulty is based on random encounters in the dungeons, so beelining makes them much easier). Yet, the random encounter rate is so high that it's easy to zone out and forget where you are on a particular floor here and there, and if you don't make a map and happen to retread a lot of ground, you end up burning a lot of your actual time because of the number of unnecessary fights you have to go through. I felt punished no matter what, as it came to this particular facet of the game design.
>>9496791
Very good post, incorrect math aside.
>>9499825
I also had fun drawing maps in and playing Zelda II, even though the dungeons aren't quite so maze-like. Very underrated game.

>>9496571
>inbred zoomer born in 2004 can't get over himself
I'm sorry you didn't have a fun time experiencing the exponential growth of video games' golden age of greatness.

>>9496973
La Mulana trolling in game design form. A good puzzle is intuitive, it introduces the variables and gives you an idea of how far you are supposed to shoot. You don't play Yoshi's Cookie and expect the solution to be "hold the b button and press up three times", because that goes beyond the established rules. Zelda 1 gives you tips so you can narrow down how to solve some of its (better) puzzles. Metroid's puzzles usually involve some kind of wall you forgot to hump, so it's less about solving a puzzle and more about being through with each room.

>>9504416
La Mulana is inspired by old MSX platform adventures, which were all like that.