/vr/ - Retro Games

>>9432628
Shit and shittier

>>9432628
some things never change huh

Even though Links Awakening is objectively superior in terms of world design, there's something so enduring about Kanto that hasn't ever been replicated

>>9432628
pretty neat. pokemon always felt like the bigger game to me. it looks like mostly corridors, but it feels like a journey. la felt smaller but I think its cause more stuff was blocked off in the begining.

>>9432628
I’m not exactly sure what point you’re trying to make here.
Pokémon might have a bigger map, but it’s also more sparse with half as many points of interest and lots of dead space in between. It works with it because of random encounters in caves and tall grass.
A bigger map doesn’t automatically mean better though, I wouldn’t want that much dead space added to Zelda for the sake of having a bigger map, it would just make traveling more of a pain.

>>9432668
>Even though Links Awakening is objectively superior in terms of world design
I don't know about that, they are so different from a gameplay standpoint that it's hard to judge on that regard but I will say that from a world building standpoint, having a world that is not a perfect square makes it feel much more organic and since it has a lot of unexplored "gaps" it really helps selling the sense that the world is much bigger than what you get to actually see on screen

>>9432689
I wasn't making a point, I find both approaches interesting and both have their advantages

>>9432628
>Interesting eh?
Not really.

>>9432628
don't care for either of them these days but much of pokemon's world is also underground and omitting this is dishonest.

>>9432712
eh, it omits LA's dungeons as well so i don't think its a bad comparison.

>>9432720
LA's dungeons are pockets in the game world of zelda, the undergrounds are massive connecting sections of game. LA has brief underground areas but they're usually a few screens at most.

How butthurt was Miyamoto when he got destroyed by an RPG?

>>9432628
This is like unfurling a roll of toilet paper and putting it next to a rolled-up roll and saying "See? One's longer."

>>9432768
Miyamoto had nothing to do with Links Awakening. He basically just said "ok go ahead and make the game". This is why the game is actually good.
The question now is, how butthurt are you right now?

>>9432775
You're spatial awareness must really be lacking if you can't tell that if you calculate the actual surface area pokemon still far surpasses it in size

>>9432768
Myamoto was the one who saw pokemons potential and incentivized gamefreak to keep going despite them being on the verge of bankruptcy

>>9432628
SOVL vs SOVL

>>9432628
You also need to include all interiors.

>>9432628
Yeah
Now show bits of area side by side.

Pokemon is empty corridor shit. Comparing any Pokemon game to Zelda is just laughable. Pokemon is a cashgrab series for 5 year olds

>>9432806
Not that anon, but for most idiots, who won't take into consideration the empty space, it is a bit of a bad comparison. though, pokemons world is much larger still.

>>9432960
The original game was not a cashgrab, there was no cashcow to milk yet

>>9432953
Zelda has 8 main dungeons while Red/Blue has 13. I would say awakening dungeons are likely bigger but pokemon has a lot more small random interiors like houses, gyms and such

>>9432628
It's kind of interesting that the pokemon map lines up perfectly. The map isn't loaded in all at once, and the average player would never notice so they didn't need to do it that way.
For example, the route with Viridian forest could have had the chunk between the forest entrances cut out and the route would be shorter.

>>9432997
For example, the route with Viridian forest could have had the chunk between the forest entrances cut out and the route would be shorter.
Not when there's a shortcut path to it's right, the trees don't fill the entire corridor

>>9433018
It's just an example dude. The shortcut could have been shorter. Or the bike path could have been arbitrarily shorter. But they decided to make it long enough to make physical sense.

>>9432668
Kanto feels like a journey, arranging the world like that gives it a good feeling of distance.
Koholint feels like a home, you get to know the locations and you return to them frequently.

Besides all the areas they straight up removed, what they did leave in was heavily shrunk in gen 2

>>9433094
I always had the feeling it was smaller but not to that extent

>>9432986
It has tons of soul but it sort of was honestly. Should've released just one game instead of Red/Blue/Green. Look at the Oracles, that's how you make companion games

>>9433094
Interested. I'm replaying Blue right now, for the first time since probably 2002 or earlier even, and there were parts that didn't feel right or totally familiar. I think I'm remembering Gen 2's Kanto.

>>9433094
Imagine if they had gone with the Kanto design that was found in the SW97 leaks. lmao

>>9433221
The whole point of the two versions was simply to promote the trading between friends, not to get people to buy both versions(you would need a second Gameboy too that was out of reach for the vast majority of kids at that point and the Gameboy was dying anyway).

Kids trading pokemon was at the core of pokemon's concept, Tajiri literally got the idea looking at the link cable and imagining insects crawling through it.

But yeah of course it turned into a scummy business practice and even the oracle games are a product of that cashing in on the phenomenon. Sure they have content that justifies 2 games but at that point they fully expect you to buy and play both games. You were never expected to play through red and then play through blue, it's the same fucking game, it's just that your and your friend's copy of the game have a few different pokemon so you can collab and help eachother out

>>9432628
Pokemon map design is so weird to me looking back on it. They actually thought to do it that way when we had games like Zelda and Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, etc. Has any other RPG ever did map design the way Pokemon did around the retro years?

>>9433297
>and the Gameboy was dying anyway
Huh?

>>9433356
>>9433356
Pokemon is not a GBC game, it came out in 1996 for a 1989 handheld nobody was buying anymore, it was those games' massive popularity that made the GB sales skyrocket again. The Gameboy Color only came out in 1998

>>9433245
This was the entire Kanto? lol

>>9433446
Originally gold and silver were supposed to feature the entirety of Japan, Kanto was not the "bonus second region", it was essentially just one of cities in the journey across japan

>>9432628
apples and oranges because they used different abstractions to define and process the maps.
zelda made far better use of the size of it's map.
pokemon maps are far lower entropy allowing more map per byte which helps with the exploration aspect. moreover, no screen changes except when entering caves/buildings helps make the world seamless.

>>9432668
Yes. That map is incredible, it kinda makes us feel like a young japanese boy exploring Japan.

Shit thread shit bait. Most of Zelda's map info is in its dungeons. But out of curiosity I wanted to see what it looked like when you got rid of all of the non-map parts and just forced everything close together. Still pretty big, but the amount of land mass with very little detail is quite apparent.

>OP just wanted to compare map sizes
>everyone else acts like this was supposed to be some big dunk on LA

>>9433094
because they didn't have enough space nigga, the whole thing is basically a bonus

>>9433636
You do know pokemon is full of dungeons and other interior spaces right?

>>9433245
Cute. CUTE

>>9432668
Careful, praising Gen One or Two of Pokémon is going to summon the seething /vp/edos

>>9433841
No retard, saying you like something isn't the same as gen warring.
>I like apples more than oranges
is different from
>apples are the best, and anyone who likes oranges is a fetus who hasn't developed taste buds yet

>>9433881
>apples are the best, and anyone who likes oranges is a fetus who hasn't developed taste buds yet
They're not wrong

Johto has the widest map.

>>9434056
even more in the remakes with that new safari route

>>9434056
It's funny that I grew up with Johto and Gen II and didn't get to play Gen I until the pandemic. But, when I played Gen I, it felt like it was my childhood Generation.

Yeah, probably because Kanto is also in Crystal/Gold/Silver, but still, it's an interesting feeling. Just shows how powerful Gen I and Kanto truly are

https://vgmaps.com/Atlas/GB-GBC/index.htm

>>9434056
Soulless

Another contender for largest GB map.
https://vgmaps.com/Atlas/GB-GBC/MetroidII-ReturnOfSamus-SR388.png

>>9434082
eh, to be fair it's a side scroller, hardly comparable

>>9434082
GB =/= GBC

>>9434123
?

>>9434127
You posted a map in color. It's not authentic

>>9434140
It's okay to admit you were bamboozled.

>>9433245
>>9433446
>>9433460
I think it's cool. The original concept for G/S seemed to be a "you've graduated from just traveling one region, now you're traveling the whole country" sort of thing and the scaled down Kanto fits in quite nicely with that. The downside is that it would've destroyed any impetus for setting future games, which is why I suspect they cut it in the end. Originally G/S were supposed to be the last games in the series. When Pokemania hit they realized the franchise's potential and the rest is history.

>>9434208
Imagine that they went with this concept and continued to make more pokemon games but the explorable area keeps getting bigger with each generation, but condensed due to hardware limitations.

>region
>country
>intercontinental
>worldwide
>interplanetary
>interstellar
>intergalactic
>universal
>interdimensional

>>9433460
>>9434208
Zelda 2 and DQ2 did that too

>>9432628
Even if you just want to compare size without what has more actual content, it doesn't even show the dungeons and all its floors which is the meat of Zelda

What a weird thread, made me hate Pokémon 0.2% more

>>9434430
Plus all the background space makes left look a lot bigger than right when it's actually on par

>>9434430
the dungeons are a big part of pokemon too, there's 13 main ones in the game. and mind you im not saying they are as complex or as large as zelda's. it could also be said the battles where you're able to control 151 different creatures with hundreds of moves are the meat of pokemon and those take place on a different plain altogether outside of what you may think as the level space

>>9434436
its not, see >>9433636

Why the fuck are you people making the assumption that the OP is passing some kind of negative judgement on LA's map? Point me to where the criticism is implied? They are two different approaches for games of a different genres. The most they have in common is being 16x16 top down games on the gameboy, chill the fuck out.

>>9432689
>I wouldn’t want that much dead space added to Zelda for the sake of having a bigger map
i agree, oot sucked

>>9434056
I hate ir

>>9432997
they designed the maps on graph paper, there had to be a big master wall with the full map in the office at some point

>>9433636
thank you, I've been wanting to look at a properly arranged data map like that, it makes comparing more truthful

>>9432628
It's worth pointing out that picture shows the playable map in pokemon but there's more to it, since the camera centers the player when you're near the corners you see more out of reach stuff. For instance everyone remembers the elusive grass fields to the sides of pallet town and they aren't shown on this map

>>9432668
>there's something so enduring about Kanto
what exactly is enduring about long, bland hallways?

>>9433094
Because it stills uses a regular gameboy cart

>>9435215
The out of reach stuff is just scenery, if you're comparing playable areas, that kind of stuff doesn't matter.

Not that it makes much sense to compare a turnbased RPG to an adventure with realtime combat and platforming. Feels like comparing Ultima Underworld to Doom, both are first person 3D games, and there's fighting and exploration in both, but they're pretty radically different titles overall with very different goals and gameplay.

>>9435248
Depends on what you like in a game. The scenery isn't all that much to look at, but there's people out there, some which you can fight, some who maybe can do other things, like give you hints or even provide an item or service (there's a guy who can give you the best fishing rod in house in the south east corner of the country, to name just one).
There's also a number of dungeons in Pokémon, which are less straight corridors, some are even outright labyrinths to varying degrees, literal ones at times, and often the more interesting Pokémon to catch are in those places.
There's also the unlocking abilities to progress thing, cutting through shrubbery, moving boulders, surfing on water, or getting a special flute to wake up a big fatass sleeping Pokémon who is blocking the road for you and everyone else, stuff to open up new areas and routes.

This is before getting into the whole building up a party of of useful fighters part, the original Pokémon games were a LOT harsher on that point, if you just mindlessly coast on your starter because they're strong initially, and then never catch or train anything else, you WILL get fucked.
This isn't really hard to do or anything, but the later games are a lot more forgiving on that point, the second Gym Leader isn't the strongest by any metric, but if you approach her carelessly she can become one of THE hardest fights in the game, there's not really any great new Pokémon to catch nearby, and you can't leave town to find and train other ones until you beat her.

>>9435535
My very first playthrough of Gold I just used Typhlosion and duplicated him 6 times

I gotta dust off my 3DS and get the emulators working

>>9435556
I guess that's one way to play.

>>9432768
>Ha ha Miyamoto was actually a hack XD
Why are zoomers so oblivious, bros?

>>9432628
Laffin at all the retards getting defensive as if this is a criticism of whatever game they prefer.

This is an interesting comparison, I would not have guessed that the size difference is that large - the games feel roughly similar in scope, in my opinion. I suppose it makes sense, given that Pokémon has to have large "blank" routes to place trainers and patches of grass on. Thanks OP.

>>9434208
I like the winter palette, it feels comfy af no cap fr fr

It would be interesting to see a pokemon map if it was designed for screen by screen transitions

>>9433030
Good take m8

>>9433094
How the hell did they fit both in that gold and silver cart.?

>>9433245
I would like it very much to visit this place and go inside all the houses and read all the signs and talk to all the people. This is very endearing, and it feels like it would've made a great memory.

>>9434430
Viridian Forest
Mt. Moon
SS Anne
Power Plant
Rock Tunnel
Rocket Hideout
Pokemon Tower
Safari Zone
Silph Co
Seafoam Islands
Pokemon Mansion
Victory Road
Cerulean Cave

>>9434389
I like how in Zelda 2, it doesn't explicitly point it out and it was found by fans later on.

>>9435874
Didn't Iwata have something to do with that? I earnestly miss that man.

>>9432628
I always hated Link's Awakening's overworld
It felt more mazelike than any other Zelda map

>>9434208
Playing through the GS 97 Proto made me really appreciate this, it felt a lot better than the final Johto map.

>>9435054
Who or what is "ir"?

>>9432668
Because you watched the pokemon anime.

>>9436067
Not really since the anime does a huge disservice to the game's world

>>9435696
That's Sinnoh

>>9436013
I don't know if you're baiting or just bad at extrapolating, but anon obviously meant to say "it".

>>9435941
Based, I like how they managed to make all the "manmade" dungeons feel unique

>>9432628
Link's Awakening did a much better job, and with less space to work with. The Pokemon games are thoroughly mediocre. The only people who like them are the people who played them as a kid. Zelda titles hold up regardless of when you first play them.

>can't travel a major road because the guard is thirsty
>only place to get a drink is one a particular department store

>>9436608
>pot is in the way
>cant jump over it
>cant smash it with a sword
>cant blow it up with a bomb
>must lift it

Would you guys like to see a 2D Zelda that uses a Pokemon style map? I feel like it could work great.

>>9436823
It would need more warp points. pokemon works because you can teleport to any city you've been in

>>9436902
alttp has literally exactly the same kind of warp system as pokemon. in fact pokemon probably ripped it off

The Oracle games have a decent warp system.

>>9435874
>>9435996
>oh fuck, we've run out of cartridge space and can't complete the game
>Satoru Iwata to the rescue!
>gets to work on optimizing Gold & Silver
>optimizes things so well that they get shitloads of leftover space
>realize they could try to add Kanto as a post-game bonus just because it would be cool
It's slightly paired down, but it's amazing nonetheless that it's there, and it was unplanned, done because they suddenly had the opportunity and because they thought it would make the game cooler.

He was a talented man who lived for the games, his passing is one of those things which made Nintendo a lot worse.

>>9432628
>Interesting eh?
Not really. I don't see anything interesting in the comparison. If there's some reason you think it should be, perhaps you could articulate your point using words, but somehow I doubt you've posted a second time in this thread.

I'm replaying blue(with a hack that uses the sprites, dex entries and uncensored translation of japanese red and green) and I'm having a blast.

>>9433297
>Tajiri literally got the idea looking at the link cable and imagining insects crawling through it.
thanks. I love that image.
>>9435576
Stewart Lee was right, he called them "the Angry Birds Generation" some 10 years ago.

>>9437128
Also try "Roaming Red", it lets you choose any town (except Indigo Plateau) as your starting point and choose any pokemon (except a legendary) or a random one as your starter. There are some map changes to accommodate the open starting point like a second tunnel in Diglett's Cave going to Cinnabar. Cut is no longer necessary but needed for Fly and all the legendaries, which also need Surf, and Strength and Flash too for Mewtwo.
It really shows the good points of the Kanto map since you can travel so freely and try to get good TMs/pokemon early.

>>9432668
LA has a boring as fuck world, the fuck are you talking. It is just a big mountain next to the beach. Of course Kanto feels better, it has more variety.

>>9437027
Slightly? There’s fuck all to see or do in Kanto. What happened to Viridian Forest was hilariously bad. It would have been much better if that space was just used to flesh out Johto as a region

The optimization Iwata did wasn't for space (they had plenty, using larger cartridges, and the optimization actually took up more space), rather it was to make the game faster.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TruePokemon/comments/hwluk9/while_it_is_true_that_iwata_did_write_a_new/

>>9437536
Thanks for the rec but that strays way too far into fanfiction territory for my taste. Glad people are still finding new ways to have fun with the game though.

This is a map showing the pokemon you can get from the mew glitch, so it only has underworld locations with trainers with them. Still you can see that the scale is surprisingly big. Would love to see a gigamap with all locations, pokemon, items, hidden items, etc. marked.

>>9432768
Miyamoto collab with Pokemon though

>>9437929
Kanto really is a pretty big map with a lot of dungeons and stuff, it uses its space pretty efficiently for the most part.

>>9437757
No need for some basedboy R*ddit essay. Iwata said it himself in the source code, which leaked in 2020.

> General -purpose VRAM data decoding routine for DMG
> * High -speed version !! *
>CREATED by S.IWATA ON JUNE, 1989
>for Pokemon gold and silver version on September, 1998
> (C) 1989 Hal Laboratory, Inc.

>>9437929
iirc the main areas without trainers would be seafoam islands, cerulean cave and power plant.

of course then there's things like digletts cave, the fuckhuge celadon department store, gamefreak's HQ, the underground tunnels and other small random buildings

>>9432768
alttp was and probably still is the greatest RPG of all time

>>9438072
it's not rpg tho, it's action adventure

>>9437707
Nah, it was based. Sorry.

>routes 1 and 22 are the only overworld areas with mandatory tall grass

how did i not notice

are there any pokemon programmed in this area?

>>9438239
Good question.

>>9438239
Where's that?

>>9438239
It's technically route 2 so I'm assuming it shares that with the other tall grass you can access meaning Rattata, Pidgey and Caterpie/Weedle depending on version

>>9438275
>shares that
shares data*

>>9438260
Look on the map, dingbat.

>>9438145
Apology accepted.

>>9438072
Are you the same fucker who created a thread asking what is the greatest RPG game ever made for the Sega Genesis, and the image you posted showed 9 games, which included Landstalker?

>>9433094
What a waste. They should have used that space to make Johto better instead.

>>9436950
iirc a lot of the pokemon devs worked on Mother 1 which has teleport

>>9438593
There's no saving Johto with the pig disgusting shitmon dex. They should have just scrapped it and remade a mega upgraded version of Kanto in color

>>9438625
Go away genwunner

>>9439079
No

I really really really love the shape of kanto's map. The way it loops around while being far from a circle, the way it puts you on a very linear path at first and when you reach cerulean there's all these many passages slowly clearing up, the way it takes a while working around saffron the hub before it opens up, how things like the underground paths and diglett's cave take you places that aren't really what would be the next thing on the map... Top notch stuff

And to think they did all this while roughly adhering to the map of the irl kanto region in japan.

>>9436950
>allttp
You mean the entirely of Jrpgs way before alttp was even in development

>>9436950
Lmao

>>9438050
Ah, Iwatacucks beat again

quality over quantity

>>9437929
now this is kino, I used the dittos in the mansion basement to get whoever was left at the end.

>>9432768
>when a franchise makes millions of dollars for YOUR company then YOU got destroyed

>>9438050
>"Based"boy

I fucking hate the WORDFILTER, thats the moment this $°○°yfilled website died.

>>9432743
>the undergrounds are massive connecting sections of game
Okay, the underground tunnels are not huge or anything.

>>9440520
Pretty sure by undergrounds he means dungeons, not those tunnels

>>9433094
Oh wow, I've never looked at them overlaid like this. I knew it was scaled down, but it's kind of surprising how much.

>>9439381
I don't get the point of this picture

>>9433094
gen 2 was a mistake

>>9440587
No I mean those tunnels. Dungeons in pokemon don't connect two areas together.

>>9432668
Imagination went a long way. The simplistic pixel art was a conduit for your imagination to take over and give life to the story. That carried over to the low poly fifth gen consoles to a degree.

I will say, Arceus and Scarlet/Violet have done a decent job of capturing what the Pokémon worlds were supposed to be like again, but it’s a damn shame we never got to see the original art direction fully realized.

>>9441917
>Dungeons in pokemon don't connect two areas together.
Huh, yes they do? Not all, there's some where you go out the way you came but there's plenty where the whole point is going from one point to the other.

The underground paths are far from massive and they barely have anything in them. Pretty sure you're just impersonating the original poster.

>>9440921
Catching new Pokemon in GSC was hell.

Which game had a better soundtrack?

>>9442876
they are both great

this answer could also be applied to "which game had a better map?"

I'm now imagining a Link's Awakening romhack that uses Kanto as its overworld and the gyms reimagined as dungeons.

>>9439079
Pidgey > Hoothoot

>>9442796
with how bad the dex was that's a good thing

>>9443454
>the gyms reimagined as dungeons.
no need for such contrivance, it's not hard to imagine zeldafied versions of the areas listed here >>9435941

>>9432628
>Interesting eh?
not really?

I'm surprised with such a limited tileset where buildings tend to look the same they used up these many 16x16 sprites to make this thing and it's shockingly well done.

>>9435248
Nothing. Anons are just wearing nostalgia googles, which is why they use empty phrases like "it's so enduring" "they make you feel like a kid" whithout saying what exactly these games do that cause them to have those feelings. Not saying that the design of the Pokemon games is bad, it still manages to do its job. Which is to let your imagination fly thanks to the simple, but cute designs.

>>9438584
Oh no, the grass and the 5 or so bug type trainers.....It's over.

>>9443493
Based

>>9434289
>pokemon interplanetary wars
I hate Nintendo for not realising the potential in their franchise. It could be even bIGGER.

>>9438572
Which one, faggot?

>>9445440
How fucking clueless are you?
I'm not going to handhold you through this. Look at all of the maps and figure out which one it is.
Do your own fucking work like a fucking adult.

>>9445408
How is it possible you can, in the same reply, posit that people are just wearing nostalgia goggles, while also giving a perfectly valid and often cited reason the games have a charm that manages to 'endure'. That being the low-fidelity graphics allow one to impart their own subjective atmosphere onto the games which works to turn the "long empty corridors" into something much more.

In addition to this, I think Kanto is somewhat unique in that it's a region of relatively realistic small cities and suburbs separated by dense rural forest, rocky mountains, and open plains set in a 90's retro futuristic setting. No gimmicky areas, no wild overly fantastical backdrops. Just a solid grounded almost idyllic area for a young boy to explore.

>>9432768
When did he serve in the middle east?

>>9446590
Your stupid joke doesn't work here.

>>9446616
I chuckled at his joke

>>9446616
I think that was an RPG joke but your accuracy was so low it didn't hit me.

>>9441917
>mt. moon
>rock tunnel
idiot

>>9447001
not dungeons, part of the game world.

>>9447429
every dungeon is part of the game world you dunce

>>9432668
I don't know if I would consider it enduring more so nostalgic to come back to like in GSC

>>9447436
Not every dungeon is thoroughfare.

>>9447448
who claimed they are?

>>9447459
That's the point of the conversation.

>>9447461
no it isn't, the point is that whether or not they are thoroughfare is unrelated to whether they would be classified as a dungeon or not
some dungeons connect two places and some don't, that doesn't change the fact they are dungeons (and part of the game world, obviously)

>>9438061
safari zone!

>>9437128
>uncensored translation of Red and Green dexes
You happen to know if the US Red and Blue dex entries are based on those (even if censored)? What about Jap Blue? Are US Red and Blue based on it or is it exactly the same as JP Red and Green?

>>9433652
this ffs, how autistic are these cunts, I never thought it that way, it was more
>hm this one is really spread out and this one is more compact

>>9432628
>Interesting eh?
It actually is, thanks for a quality bread

>>9443493
>doesn't even learn a flying type attack until lv 28 in gen I
genwunner pls

>>9432628
Wow an RPG and an Action-Adventure don't have similar overworlds.

>>9433094
I haven't played HG/SS but is it the same as this or the full LG/FR Kanto region?

>>9448665
Stay on topic, anon.
Nobody likes remakes.

>>9433636
The other thing to keep in mind here is that Pokemon is an RPG that relies on random encounters mixed in with trainer battles from line of sight. The long swathes of grass and sea on the overmap are there to ensure that the player will run into several fights before they actually make it to the next required area, and gyms/caves have pretty much the same topographical requirements in order to provide further challenge.
Link's Awakening isn't an RPG but an adventure game with a lot of action and puzzle solving. It doesn't need a large space in order to challenge the player because that comes from the puzzles and figuring out how to navigate the world, in fact making the overworld bigger would only add needless space. This is the same philosophy that carried Zelda 1 and ALTTP before it, and Link's Awakening is highly regarded because it takes that design and trims the fat for a full-fledged portable entry in the series.

>>9448665
HG/SS Kanto is more of Kanto, but it's not the entire Kanto. Obviously things like Victory Road and Cinnabar Island are still gone. On the flipside, you get an actual Viridian Forest, Seafoam Islands, Cerulean Cave, a lot of the routes got lengthened back to gen 1 standards, you get the Pal Park taking the place of the Fuschia safari zone and an actual safari zone in Johto, added post-game story content, Mewtwo and the legendary birds come back etc etc. It feels a lot more like Kanto despite making some sacrifices to Gen II's elaboration on the kanto timeline

>>9448668
Fuck you, FRLG is good.

For some reason, the gen 2 Gym Leader battle theme keeps playing whenever I enter this thread.

>>9448765
>keeps playing
In my head, of course. I'm not hallucinating.

>>9448727
>It feels a lot more like Kanto despite making some sacrifices to Gen II's elaboration on the kanto timeline
I like how the remakes handled that actually. Cinnabar was bland besides the mansion, and seeing one of the old towns reduced to a melted rock by a natural disaster gives the world a sense of scope.

Not a big fan of the ghost tower being turned into a radio tower, but the new lavender town theme is so tranquil it gives a feeling of the old vengeful spirits being really at rest.

There’s a nice sense of time really having moved while the player wasn’t looking at Kanto, it makes the world feel more alive. I wouldnt want them to undo a lot of the concessions even if they were able to (getting a proper Viridian and extending the routes to their old length was a good call though, those changes didnt add to the world in the original gsc).

>>9448589
>You happen to know if the US Red and Blue dex entries are based on those (even if censored)?
They aren't. Western Red & Blue share the entries with japanese Blue(I don't think they have any particularly noteworthy censorship)

As far as western releases go the Firered remake uses the translated entries from the original Red and Green(While Leafgreen uses the entries from Blue). I don't know to which extent they are censored, there's bound to be at least some slight differences like how Oddish' Firered entry says it's scientific name is Oddium Wanderus which is obviously going of the localized name Oddish and since that is not its japanese name the scientific name pun should be totally different.

But yeah overall it's not that the japanese entries have some super secret knowledge nobody ever heard, like I said if, you're interested look up the english Firered entries to get the gist of it, it's more that as with the sprites having a more neutral definitive pose in contrast with the japanese Blue/western Red and Blue being all wacky and weird, the original dex info overall feels a bit more like the quintessential description of the Pokemon. For instance I think for Cubone it's a lot more relevant to know that "It wears the skull of its dead mother on its head. When it becomes lonesome, it is said to cry loudly." than "Because it never removes its skull helmet, no one has ever seen this Pokémon's real face."

>>9448743
FRLG is soulless trash

>>9449001
That's it?

>>9449198
Some of the music is much worse, too. Pretty good other than that, not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. But it's not a replacement for the originals.

>>9449205
But I never fucking said that either?

>>9449198
No, it's fucking awful in every front outside the quality of life type improvements.

>>9432628
Its hard to make meaningful conclusions. Pokemon has a lot of the game take place in battle screens while in Zelda all combat is on the map.

>>9432628
How does S.S. Anne leave Kanto with these barriers in the way? Cycling Road is meant to be a bridge, so I can see the cruise liner getting past it, but what about after that?

>>9449465
The buoys are there for gameplay reasons. They're not supposed to be strict barriers in practice.

>>9444462
funny how 8 years old me just accepted that was a full sized ship and the perspective wasn't weird in the slightest

>>9449465
Do you also think Pallet Town only has 2 houses and the only way out of town is through tall grass? The game is a symbolic abstraction, it's no different than all the rocks outlining the water routes in more modern pokemon, everything is landlocked if you just take it at face value.

one of the best aspects of LA is the density of gameplay options at any moment. You're never more than a couple seconds away from participating in its World.

While Kanto is more spread out with a sense of travel, there is more packed into Koholints various screens. It takes a few seconds to move across one screen, on which there is always something to cut, fight, blow-up, talk to, read, check or otherwise.

The speed at which you can execute on your cognitive apprehension of the World is part of what makes it so playable. It totally makes the most of its condensed map.

In conjunction with the speed of its gameplay, the metroidvania-esque gated-ness of the map setup facilitates a kind of dance as you encounter pockets of the map in a recurring fashion, sometimes with additional moves to bring to bare on the obstacles. In this way many of the map screens evolve into having secondary function as you progress through the game.

I've often thought the size of Link in proportion to his speed and relative map size is a particular boon for LA. Perhaps ALBW comes close, but it's been years since I played that and I rushed it. I think a 3d Zelda at some point should learn from LA's speedy, brisk pace and interactive gaminess. The Mario series has toyed around with merging properties of the 2d and 3d entries, and I think there's a way in which Zelda could do it also - without it being merely a campy toybox-like experience. Even LA transcends its face-level childishness and gets to some kind of esoteric meaning that anyone who really loves the game will be familiar with.

>>9450002
autism

>>9449854
I'm just going by video game logic.

>>9432628
>one is a linear sequrence of corrdors
>the other has actual thought put into it
hmmmm

>>9450002
Kanto is a pretty dense little JRPG world tucked into a modest Game Boy cartridge, it really has a lot going for it, but I do agree that Link's Awakening is yet denser, it's incredible how much value and mileage you got out of these games.
Man, Nintendo's output from the late 80s the early/mid 90s was just absolutely sick, only Sega could actually match them (and then really only with home consoles, the Game Gear was really cool, but not cool enough). Shame that with 5th gen, Nintendo began to lose it, and Sega completely buttfucked the pooch.
There's some great shit on Playstation, I mean some very timeless stuff, but very little can quite match the magic of the SNES and Genesis at their peaks, and some of the first party N64 stuff doesn't have much in the way of counterparts on the other consoles of the time, or even on PC (and that part of the industry was wild and wonderful in its own right). Props to Sony though because the PSP is probably the strongest competitor Nintendo ever had in the realm of handheld gaming, where they remained kings even when their home consoles were doing lukewarm.

What an incredible epoch of gaming, diverse and rapidly developing. Zoomers may be able to look back at old classic games, and the ones who have a serious interest in certain kinds of games are wise to do so (the right ones will carry the torch into the future, I welcome them), they may also have the history retold to them by those of us who were there, but they can never TRULY understand the full experience of actually living through any part of this era.

The mid 1980s to the mid 2000s, that is the renaissance of this medium, and fuck any thundering doublenigger who disagrees with me.

>>9436772
difference is that the gauntlets are a tool that you get and allows you to lift any boulders you find from that point on, the drink is a little inconsequential thing

>>9450449
>Linear
Clearly you never played the game

>>9450560
It's a one time key, not so different from the keys you use to open Zelda dungeons which have no other use. being that it's a modern urban setting it makes sense the "keys" have a mundane vibe instead of being special magic artifacts - a drink, a cruise ticket, dentures...

And despite not being an action adventure game Pokemon also has carry over abilities in the shape of the HMs

>>9437707
Both a contrarian and a virgin, I see

>>9450940
Nta but I agree. Unless you're a smooth brained 10 year old blinded by the idea of OMG 2 WHOLE REGIONS the way they handled it does both a disservice to Johto and Kanto

>>9450517
>Man, Nintendo's output from the late 80s the early/mid 90s was just absolutely sick, only Sega could actually match them
>What an incredible epoch of gaming, diverse and rapidly developing.
It reminds me of the early days of television, tech was still in its infancy, budgets were meager, but precisely because of that there was a lot of experimentation and pushing the boundaries, and freedom to try new things. Think The Honeymooners, The Jack Benny Program, Studio One. A first golden era, that may not be without its flaws but has a freshness, originality and creativity behind it, and also the sense of wonder that still existed, all that can never be replicated.

>>9450940
The contrarian view is that Gen 2 Kanto was good.

>>9446616
It was p. cash

>>9451164
What was the point of this? Nintenchads making you upset?

>>9451167
Uh no? I'm planning to read those threads later?

>>9450474
>>9450968
>>9450015
>>9446136
>>9450459

>>9448365

Zelda 1 is zelda 1.
Zelda 2 is zelda 2.
Zelda 3 is LttP + its companion Link's Awakening, with the Oracles appended also, & the four sword trilogy also appended, with LBW at the end (& also the LA remake).
Zelda 4 is OoT & MM.
Zelda 5 is WW.
Zelda 6 is TP.
Zelda 7 is PH & ST combined.
Zelda 8 is ST.
Zelda 9 is BotW, and TotK will be 9.2.

OR:

1-1
2-2
LttP-3
LA-4
OoT-5
MM-6
etc.

>>9451306
you need medical help

>>9451306
touch grass

>>9432628
>Interesting eh?
A little known or spoken about fact in gaming is that the more interactable or action-based your game is, the less physical content you can put into it. You can create miles and miles of geometry and have it load insanely fast...provided that it has no actual physical component or movement and you would just fall through it upon touching it. I don't fully understand it myself despite having worked a little bit with it, but from what I understand, it's because the game engine goes from doing nothing but loading images, to loading images and then checking every object's location vs the location against those shapes and then checking the rules and logic and then...etc. It's how games like Final Fantasy were able to look so great back then, even though a lot of 3D action games like Castlevania and Mario looked like ass and were way smaller.

2 of my favorite games and I didnt even grow up with the gameboy. dont make me choose

>>9433094
To be quite honest, I'm actually all for this. One of the things I was thinking as I was staring at OP was how pointlessly long and simple a lot of the routes were, like the route south of Lavender all the way to Fuschia. Other than the random fence maze, it's 10 miles long and just straight walkways, with billions of trainers along the way. Even though the only thing you were doing in R/B/Y was fighting, G/S/C had a little bit more going on for it that you didn't need to put so much focus on fighting, and thus those long pathways don't make sense.

>>9433245
I should have scrolled down a little more before hitting post. This is a line too far I think. If you literally hadn't posted that this was supposed to be Kanto, I would have unironically thought that, at BEST, this was the FULL size version of Pallet Town as a small town, not an entire region. Good lord.

>>9435535
>if you just mindlessly coast on your starter because they're strong initially, and then never catch or train anything else, you WILL get fucked.
This is bullshit. I destroyed the game with a Venosaur at level 86 and level 5-11 Pidgey/Rattata/Butterfree/Beedrill/Poliwag which was there to replace a Pikachu for Surf. 8-9 year-old me didn't understand the concepts of RPGs and leveling. I kept using the starter over and over again, and when I caught something new, I would try using that, see it wasn't as strong as my starter, and then just keep using my starter again. The only thing that gave me serious trouble was Gary's Charizard, and I still didn't even understand type matchups all the way to the league. I remember I kept clicking Solar Beam over and over again cause it was my strongest attack. Then finally I was about to give up and click Body Slam, which killed from like 75% health.

My Venosaur had Vine Whip, Razor Leaf, Solar Beam, and Body Slam.

If 8 year-old retarded me can clear out the game with 1 Pokémon, there's no way you could say that the game will actually punish you for anything.

What's Awakening's rom size?

>>9446616
It was funny
you buttsauce

>>9452530
Bulbasaur/Ivysaur/Venusaur being the only starter which won't promptly get its ass kicked if not leveled enough for Misty.

>>9451701
Noones making you choose, they're very different games and both are excellent in their own right.

>>9451078
No it wasn't. I didn't say it, so it can't be funny.
Unless...

I think I'm coming to the conclusion that I'm not actually a funny person to anyone other than myself.
I just never played Dungeons 'n' Dragons.

Any other Gameboy maps worth a shit?

>>9452579
512KB. Pokemon Red is 1MB, Gold is 2MB. As a bonus, the American releases of Oracle of Ages/Seasons are 1MB, while the Yuro releases are 2MB.

>>9453351
Someone posted a map from some Looney Tunes game earlier and it was pretty nice.

What is the densest/compact rpg/adventure game for game boy?

>>9453351
>>9453504
Yeah if GBC also counts this one is pretty nice. I believe it uses the same amount of overworld screens as Links awakening

>>9433636
Link's Awakening is an absolute masterpiece of overworld design that should be studied by any serious game designer. If you look at any random LA screenshot you can instantly tell exactly where in the world the player is, and I don't think the same can be said of Pokemon. Great games both, but it's apples and oranges.

Moar liek Link's Sexual Awakening After Seeing Tarin As A Racoon

>>9453351
The other Zelda games.

>>9450002
ALBW's overworld is basically a slightly condensed version of LttP's, so it's fucking miles away from the elegance of LA. The Oracles are probably closer, but because you're constantly altering the overworlds they end up a little less memorable.

>>9432628
The most interesting thing about seeing Kanto's entire map like that is how many obvious hints there are suggesting how the rest of the land is formed. Which made Gen 2's Kanto all the more disappointing to me, as not only did Johto suck, but they didn't do anything with Kanto's potential for larger/new routes.

>>9453594
Correct they are both 16x16 rooms

the oracle maps are convoluted and uninviting

>>9454657
k

>>9437578
Agreed, LA's overworld is atrocious. I have no idea why it gets so much praise on this board.

>>9453495
512 is sort of why I asked. The original Pokemon in JP is 512 as well. Not that I know how much Awakening's took, but Pokemon's localization is essentially a lot of blank space.

>>9455016
Takes so many more characters to write in English than Kana

>>9449198
>>9448743
FRLG works with a much expanded palette and a far more flexible tile set yet it manages to be extremely flat and plain. Doesn't help that the FRLG pokemon sprites are also the most expressionless up to that point, like 3/4 of them are literally just standing there.
Look at picrel, Vileplume is really difficult to make move but all other games tried something with it, but in FRLG it's just there... literally t-posing.

RBY weren't the best looking games by any means but the expanded graphical capabilities of the GBA really makes so much worse. There's a reason the first thing pretty much all hacks do is redraw the old GBA assets.

>>9448743
this board is for balding nostalgiafags anon, they're never going to admit that a remake of one of their childhood games was good

>>9456054
t. balding zoomer upset that his nostalgia is shittier and derivative

>>9453656
>t. asking for suicide bait
Don't kill yourself anon. Get help and some outdoor sunshine.

>>9456054
>this board is for balding nostalgiafags
I still have my hairline, as a 33-year-old. Who knows, I may still have all of my hair when I'm in my 50s.

>>9456153
wat

>>9456054
now THIS is what projection looks like.

>>9448743
Shut up

>>9456379
>>9456149
>>9456054

>FR/LG vs R/B/Y faggotry

Shut the fuck you goddamn retards.

Anyone who was a kid when they played the originals (as you should have been), during the original wave of Pokemania, would have still only been like 14-16 teenage at the time of FR/LG. You weren't old enough to have your jaded adult concept of "muh sovl", you just saw that they made the original Pokemons with better graphics and thought that was cool.

And it was cool.

You didn't find out until later in life that it even HAS any significant gameplay differences. You didn't realise about any of that autistic bullshit until you started watching fucking speedruns or some shit in your mid-late 20s.

>>9458376
>You didn't find out until later in life that it even HAS any significant gameplay differences.
As someone who was exactly in your age range, I specifically remember one of the selling points being updating the games to the gameplay mechanics of Gen 3, including Sp. Def, abilities, etc. Oh, and a new gameplay area. And ability to trade in all the mons that had come out since.

>>9457647
Incoming mountain of text.

I never said it was a replacement, Gen 1 is the one I had as a kid when it was new. Me and my brother actually emulated it before we got physical carts for Christmas, and we both knew damn well we wanted it portable and able to trade with others, even if we didn't have Game Boy Colors or a Super Game Boy. Both of us got Blue for some reason (maybe Red was out), but that was a minor disappointment and the game was still great.
I still like it a lot, it was a big hit for a good reason, a really solid entrylevel JRPG with a good premise and fun exploration, which was also paired with a great tie-in cartoon along with effective merchandising and marketing. The playground exchange and mythbuilding was also special, and something later generations of kids will likely never have (at least in the same way). It has flaws, there's things which don't work like intended, but it's still very playable, and most kids wouldn't notice them or know where to look for the more egregious ones. The little rough edges aren't a big deal.

The greatest strength I think is the setting, taking place in a contemporary world, rather than many RPGs being some form of medieval fantasy or a mixture of it. The setting is still pretty fantastical, even sci-fi at times, but it's overall a more relatable setting than most RPGs I had seen, and the anime really helped spur my imagination of how the world would look like past the functional abstraction of the game. There weren't any streets or sidewalks in the game itself, no highways with cars, with towns only being a few houses, but your fantasy fills in those gaps.
The progression of the worldmap is smart, there's crossing paths, dungeons you have to move through to get to the other side, paths initially closed off which you return to later, optional paths or even complete optional dungeons, etc, and different locations have different Pokémon to fight and catch. This design is executed extremely well as a whole.

I was like 12 when FR/LG came out, and I actually didn't see the point at the time, because I had already played Kanto lots. We emulated G/S, but we kept hitting walls because the roms were partially (and incorrectly) translated, so we kind of lost interest and didn't feel like waiting to find better translations nor investing all that time again. It kinda just slipped from us.
I got to try out my cousin's copy of Ruby some time later, and it really hooked me, aside from the pretty graphics and nicer sound and music, I liked the new land to explore, with new gameplay mechanics and new Pokémon (the new generation of designs could be a little hit or miss, but there were a bunch I really liked).

I talk my brother into it, and we both make sure to get different versions this time around, and we have a great time. The double battles, the timed events, the rematchable trainers which actually level up, it was all super. Discovering that there were parts where you could dive into deep water to move through seaweeds and searching for treasure was really cool to me, even cooler was accidentally stumbling upon the Sealed Chamber without being aware of it. I investigate every square inch of it, then save and close the game to ponder what's up with this place for a while.
Returning to it an hour later, and on a hunch comparing the long runic message on the most forward wall with the short strips, I try and see if a few of the short sections could be used to read the long message as if it was an alphabet, and it WAS. Fuck me, that was a thrill to discover, I was out on a roadtrip, so what I manage to scrounge is a ballpoint pen and a post-it note, which I scribble down the cipher on and then use to translate the message with. Getting concrete instructions, I set out on my quest to fulfill them.

I could have looked it up on the internet when I got home, but I resisted the temptation to find it out for myself.

Reasons like those are why Gen 3 has always been my favorite. Gen 4 didn't capture that stuff for me, I didn't like the partially 3D graphics or the style as much, didn't like the music as much, didn't like Sinnoh as much, and replacing the secret bases with the Underground sucked, the digging minigame felt like yet another awkward attempt at foisting the touch screen onto me, like with Castlevania DoS, and I didn't care for it at the time. The game wasn't bad or anything, I had some fun, but it was definitely a lesser experience to me, and the online features were wasted on someone who didn't have any kind of Wi-Fi at the time.
Later gens have been pretty hit or miss for me since, and they never REALLY recapture the magic of the older ones, even if I have some fun with them.

Getting the Pokémon itch recently, and not liking a lot of what I see in the new ones, nor feeling compelled to get a Switch, I figured I would try out FR/LG, because I love Gen 3 and the idea of a Gen 3-ified Kanto with those new mechanics and quality of life features was a very appealing idea to me. I give it a go, and I've had a really good time. Is it better than the originals? Maybe in some manners, but it definitely has a very different feel and atmosphere, I last played Gen 1 like maybe 10-12 years ago, so my memory isn't super fresh, but it's still distinct.
Writing these posts and reminiscing more about Gen 1 makes me feel like I should give it a run after finishing my FR run, just to more strongly appreciate the difference. My gut feeling tells me that I'm still going to have fun with it, I did last time, so ultimately I guess I like both the originals and the remakes in their own ways.

>>9449205
Some of the music really is worse, that's true.

>>9458543
>I specifically remember one of the selling points being updating the games to the gameplay mechanics of Gen 3, including Sp. Def, abilities, etc.
If that was advertised, then I missed that things were changed in regards to stats and what not (I didn't know how much was actually broken about the original games back then), and I probably didn't even think too much about abilities and what not.

>>9458964
Okay well my point is, as someone who is only just 31 now, at the time there were people in the teen demographic for Gen 3 who absolutely knew it was an update with gameplay changes. My friends and I who were still into it were pretty excited. You may not have been aware, and that's fine, but your experience was not universal.

>>9459046
Just chipping in my experience, neither positive or negative. From a modern perspective I do like a lot of the gameplay changes.

>>9458640
I went back to RBY after FR/LG and found it really clunky to play, honestly. Item management and pokemon box management are really bad, as is having to enter the menu and manually select HM moves every time you want to use one.

>>9459046
>as someone who is only just 31 now
lol get outta here, kid.

t. 33yo

>>9459262
Yeah, the item and box management in Gen 1 is just fucking torture. It's not broken or anything, but man, it's so ploddy and clunky to handle. The Gen 3 setup is superior by every single metric.

>>9459046

My point was more that like... Man, nobody cared about that shit, nobody that I knew anyway. We all knew that like, c'mon, it's pokeymans, it's babby game. Nobody was taking all the stats and EVs and shit seriously.

Sure that may not be a universal experience but I think it's probably true for more people than not. I had no idea people could get so autistic about Pokemon until I was already a fully fledged adult.

In fact I remember specifically it was when B/W came out and I got a special DSi bundle with it. It was cool because it was the first time I had bought a console and pokemon game just for the hell of it. When I was a kid I had to beg my parents for a Gameboy to join in with my friends playing it, but this was like "check it out, I can just drop £120 on this like it doesn't matter", and it was awesome. I enjoyed the fuck out of it.

Then I came on 4chan to talk about it, like I did in everything back then, and found everyone sperging the fuck out about the tiniest shit, and I was absolutely fucking amazed, honestly. This pokemon isn't viable, this team is garbage, bla bla, and I was still like "lol but my level 70 nidoking uses mega punch", which was literally an undefeated strategy when I was 9 years old.

I dunno man, it's just wild how these games span generations like that, and how there's a whole crowd of the community that's like "lol genwunners" lmao, it's just funny. Know what I mean.

>>9459262
>>9460812
you're so supposed to do regular item management when you stop by the pokecenter, not let your bag fill up with hundreds of items you don't need

>>9434208
Honestly, Gen 3 would have been about polishing the entire world map. There's so much open space on the interior that it just screams needing to be filled in. I assume that part of the reason why we haven't been back to regions based on Japan is because they'd have to contrive reasons as to why you can't just waltz into a neighboring region.

>>9461590
I know, but it's just not fucking fun to do that. I'm alright with offloading shit you don't need, but I just wish the PC was more convenient as a whole.

Something I really appreciate though is how unlike much later gens, where they actually just give you the Exp. Share, in some of them REALLY early, in R/B and FR/LG you actually have to fucking work to get that bitch, having to to have captured 50 Pokémon and to have reached Fuschia City.
Being a third of the original Pokédex, that took a bit of effort, but it makes it a good reward considering how convenient the thing is.

>>9460895
It's interesting how a game which is designed to be really pretty casual manages to attract a lot of minmaxing autism like that. I get that there's an appeal in that with these games, but it's like some people forget that there's any other aspects at all to them.

>>9459269
>tfw only 30