/vr/ - Retro Games

I'm too busy actually playing games to read fan fictions like this haha.

Its because games are too expensive to take risks these days

The average indie studio today is bigger than the average dev team of an NES game, if you want variety play indie games. A problem people dont acknowledge is games went from being a small team project to a massive corporate undertaking being developed by hundreds of people

quality came through quantity. when quantity decreased the number of games that could potentially be quality dropped as a result.

>>9416176
Did team sizes scale with technology, or do you think that the ""standards"" are higher for a new release (standards as in graphics, world sizes, details, cinematics)? I bet that the NES is easier to get something decent running within a time frame compared to an Xbox or PS5

>>9416176
>>9416183
It's not mystery that the ideal number of team members in a development studio is 10 people who can quickly reach consensus on how the game should turn out and prevent feature creep that they can't deliver in time. Technology made a lot of people lazy since physical storage space is the cheapest and biggest it's ever been, so optimization has been put on the back seat.
The standards also changed. "People" won't play something that doesn't look like Crysis, price tag included. They also won't buy something that doesn't have millions of dollars for marketing (which is what most of the budget is actually spent on) simply because they won't know it exists in this age of information excess, unless a youtuber tells them about it or something. You have rare cases of success like Natsume's latest remasters and stuff like Metroid Dread but new IPs are almost always brought to the table by indies with a lot of money to spare.

The corporate shift that happened in the 90's.
Back in the 80's, you had a lot more bedroom coders who would make some popular shareware or whatever and be able to start their own studio. Pretty much all the "big-name" studios of the 90's started that way in the 80's, including Epic, Sierra, Acclaim, Apogee, etc. Games were made because they did well or fans asked for more. Not every sequel was great, but the small studios owned their IP's entirely and could do whatever they wished.
Then somewhere in the early to mid 90's, videogames got a hostile takeover from big money. The GDC was turned into a hollow shell of it's former self, and some of the bigger dev studios started buying up other successful studios. Origin got bought up by EA, Iguana and Probe got bought out by Acclaim, and the industry consolidated into bigger and bigger companies. Of course, the bigger the company, the more profits for shareholders take place over running a successful dev studio. The top 3 selling IP's get games, and every other IP sits on the shelf unless there's an easy and cheap way to cash in on it, since that's what makes the most profit.

turns out giving publishers all the power and developers none of the power is a bad thing. they should bring democracy to the workplace

>>9416270
>save me homeless man

I wish all my favorite IP stay dead instead of becoming pozzed in this current era

>>9416270
Unfortunately picrelated replaces pay-to-win with "everything is political" which is even more shit.

>>9416306
homeless? he lives rent-free in the minds of conservatives everywhere

>>9416313
what.

>>9416350
Please play anything made in the last 5 years by a triple A company. Or watch, for that matter.
"White man bad, capitalism bad, everything must be political."

AA died. Games are so expensive you have have mass broad appeal or it won't even be made

>>9416350
i'm living in my head right now. that guy is homeless. what are you smoking? he's holding a massive ketchup packet, has a swollen hand, and a single tooth.

>>9416270
Turns out giving openly genocidal hypocritical pathological liars all the power and the people no power, and no right to even leave, is a bad thing.

>>9416398
could you cite some examples for me? i'm on /vr/ because i mostly play retro games. you sound delusional btw

>>9416471
video games?

>>9416169
All the interesting stuff is going on in the indie space and has for years now. Even new games on old hardware. Just ignore the itch.io style hipster trash.

>>9416674
This, the only modern games worth playing are coming from small but dedicated groups like Spiderweb Software.

>>9416270
Only right before DLC became a fad did anyone need to preserve anything, anything after that is highly questionable.

It really feels like gaming became much more of an industry that turned towards profit. When I got into PS1 emulation the variety of the games surprised me. Some games on the PS1 like Gaball Screen feel more like art projects rather than traditional video games. I don't think games like that would pop up often in today's time.

>>9416727
PS1 was an experimental console.

>>9416418
I'm trying to understand why some small studio can't make a "great gameplay, retro graphics" Deus Ex standard game in the same engine as Deus Ex 1, for about a million dollars budget. Deus Ex was 5M but we have better tools now, much easier to make that type of textures etc, (an individual fan can remake the whole games textures) and the engine licence would be nothing, etc.
You would then sell it for $40 (40 hour game) and that needs to sell 25K copies to break even. Now, if a fruity buttdildo vibe modern game like God of War sells 25 million copies, surely there exists 1/1000 normal, sensible people who would still want to play a new Deus Ex pc game type game?

>>9416742
>I'm trying to understand why some small studio can't make a "great gameplay, retro graphics" Deus Ex standard game
shareholders

>>9416398
Name five, no three, examples. I'll wait.

>>9416169
I think the games are designed top-down with a checklist of features, most they already have code for. This explains twenty years of Sonic Heroes to Frontiers with the same gameplay. MMO changed things for the worse, where they had to entice users to be on everyday for hours, which lead to stats, skills, skins and loot for games that shouldn’t have any. Once you go down that route there is no innovative programming inside. No one achieves their goals.

>>9416169
>Nowadays you only ever see the famous long-lived companies releasing new games for the same 4~5 franchises they own,

That's because it's all you're looking at. Actually delve into the games that are available and you'll see there's not only far more games coming out these days, but also of more variety in terms of gameplay and experimentation than there ever was in the 80's and 90's.

Things really aren't that different now than they were. If you just read the odd magazine and went by other ads you'd think most gaming then was just Mario, Zelda, Sonic, Street Fighter, maybe megaman and Castlevania. Games like Wardener, Humans, Gaiares etc would probably never be noticed.

>>9416183
>Did team sizes scale with technology
Yes. Back in the 70s and early 80s, it was unusual for a game to have a "team" at all, they were all programmed by one guy that did everything.

>>9417102
thanks for this useless response, as if small local studios with 1M budget have 'shareholders'

>>9416174
Yes I don’t understand why people want to post about the modern industry or about people who play video games. I’d rather just talk about the games themselves

>>9416309
Based and true. It hurts everytime and it keeps getting worse

>>9417656
>but also of more variety in terms of gameplay and experimentation than there ever was in the 80's and 90's.

This is unbelievably untrue, games are more objectively well designed than ever, and with that design has come homogenization. We ain't exactly getting shit like Mr. Mosquito anymore from either AAA or indie games and you'll start blowing smoke up my ass listing farming sim#4673 or 2D game with a dash button#3968 as a counter argument. Most genres have fewer permutations than ever, because what works and what doesn't work has been entirely internalized by the industry.

>>9417737
There have always been people like that on the board, who are less interested in old games than they are interested in complaining about new games.

>>9417912
Go actually delve into smaller titles, there is a ton of creativity.

>>9417918
>>9417737
You missed the point entirely.

>>9417920
No there really isn't my dude, there's a reason why games are a bigger industry than ever and it's not because games are doing unconventional things. We've gone decades with entire genres dumpstered in the face of profits. If you want 3rd person survival horror with jank combat like Rule of Rose or Silent Hill, if you want platformers that are not walljumping focused or nostalgiabait n64/ps1 throwbacks, if you want to play an action game without a dash/dodge/counter button, your options are extremely few and far between.

Yeah you can say "all of those things are ass, homogenization is good", which is what the vast majority of consumers also feel, but that's my entire point.

>>9417939
I disagree very strongly. I see way less homogenization now than in the old days. But I've had this argument a thousand times and you people have blinders. Either way, think what you want.

>>9417929
No, I get it all too well. Partly why I barely bother with this board anymore.

>>9417942
>I get it
You do not.
I was contemplating why so many old titles have been forgotten. I was not contemplating new IPs or sequels at all.

>>9416742
Most small studios nearly go bankrupt even when making modest games. Retro graphics are still a massive resource sink unless you half-ass it like all those shitty indie PS1-style horror games no one plays. Lots of loners have tried to make something close to Deus Ex but only Cruelty Squad has come close. There's also Peripeteia but I'm pretty sure it's vaporware

>>9417713
Where did the 1M come from? It's not like there aren't strings attached.

>>9418013
>It's not like there aren't strings attached.
My proposal was that a game costing 1M could find enough audience to make a profit, so replying back that "but shareholders want to make a profit" is non-sequitur. Your other arguments are okay though.

Another way of thinking about what I'm suggesting is, they made that game Prey, right? and it sold a bit shit and they probably lost money. Well, what if they made the same game in unreal engine 2 or 3 and cut their graphics budget in 1/4 (graphics budget is artist time, 1/10th polygons=1/4 the headcount/time? maybe). It would sell less but maybe the hugely cut budget makes it profitable ?

>>9418073
Not him, but I'm guessing the point was most people with just an idea can't cone up with a million dollars to make it all on their own so will probably rely on shareholders for startup costs who may want to meddle with the game given that they have invested. I could be wrong though.

>>9416181
This is one thing I believe in too. I think sometimes people believe that quantity leads to shit quality, but it's really the opposite. It's nearly impossible for somebody to strike a home run on their first swing.

>>9418336
This. Which is why gaming is so fantastic now, there is magnitudes more quantity of titles coming out now than there ever was in the 80's and 90's

>>9416176
Yeah this guy summed it up nicely. Games went from being a thing for kids and a small-ish number of nerds to being the most profitable entertainment media there is.
There ARE still solid games out there developed by smaller outfits, but things are still different in a big way. The best talent gravitates towards the high paying major studios because those people want to make serious cash if they can. Can't really blame them for that.

>tfw 300k saved up for my dream vidya
>by the time it's 1M that 1M will be worth 300k

>>9416169
>>9416176
I like to play pixelart games if Im playing something new`, ha ha

>>9416742
There’s 19 people in your picture. If the budget is $1M, that’s $53K/year (for a single year) — which is abysmally underpaid. That doesn’t even include rent, tools, licenses, marketing, benefits, recruitment, etc.

>>9418363
This. There is magnitudes more quantity of titles coming out now than there ever was in the 80's and 90's

>>9416169
The indie game thing is bigger which compensates for it.

>>9419267
He’s asking WHY HAVE THESE TITLES BEEN FORGOTTEN not why they don’t make sequels and/or remasters.

>>9419270
>>9419270
Who says they've been forgotten? Not every one off game needs to spawn a series of sequels for decades on end. They were made, they exist, you can play them and have fun any time you want and talk about that. It's the same as it's always been, not just in games, but movies, books, music... everything creative. Why don't people talk more about Hustlers Convention these days despite how influential it was? Does it matter?

>>9419283
I always end up falling in love with games people mostly forgot or are niche and over.

>>9419270
Oh I didnt read it.

>>9419305
Is that a bad thing?

>>9419308
He calls Gradius forgotten, you didn't miss much not reading it. Dude is a tard.

>>9419337
Konami literally shelved the series. The last real game was in 2008, and the series has since been relegated to minor easter eggs in games like Dead by Daylight and fucking Bomberman.
Dumb nigger.

>>9419345
Not having more entries pushed out every year doesn't mean one of the most influential shmup series ever has been forgotten. Comix Zone not getting sequels doesn't mean it's forgotten. Not everything needs to be rehashed forever. Grow up dude

>>9419363
Not a single new entry after 14 damn years for a game that IS a series and gets referenced constantly to this day is indeed forgotten grounds, retard.

>>9419372
>gets referenced constantly to this day is indeed forgotten grounds,
>referenced constantly
>forgotten

Do you even read the drivel you type? I am glad as fuck things like Gradius and Comix Zone haven't been ground into the dirt over and over like Zelda, Mario and Street Fighter to the point it's just endless mishmash of the same things. I don't need another Ecco the Dolphin, I will always have it. I sure as fuck don't want a yearly entry in the "Ecco series" to keep the brand alive so some child remembers it 15 years from now.

>>9419381
>I am glad my favorite obscure game will never again have new content
I wish I was a Mario fan instead of starving with one Comix Zone game I know like the back of my hand from replaying 8 times because there's never been anything like it since, and hasn't garnered enough of a fanbase to warrant a decompilation project for ports or mods, and fucktons of great music covers every year. Boy is it great having nothing huh, bug eater?

>>9419394
I'm glad I'm not a Mario fan too and I'm even more glad what happened to Mario never happened to Comix Zone. But then I also don't need to replay Comix Zone so often it becomes boring because I like so many games both old and new that there's constantly new experiences.

I feel real sympathy for people stuck working at Nintendo, where every time they try to do anything actually new a flood of idiots screams that it's not Metroid and why aren't they giving them more Metroid!?!???

Comix Zone is perfect as it is and where it is. My only regret is it didn't get the M2 treatment that Ecco, Space Harrier and others did where I can experience it on wonderful 3D. But apparently I'm one or the rare few who ever used the 3D on those ports so it's understandable. Other than that, perfect.

>>9419445
Comix Zone is an incredible game that’s on Nintendo Switch Online + (or w/e it’s called). So it’s not too forgotten.

>>9419236
That's the original $5M budget staff. The premise is better established tools means you hire 1/5 of them, not pay them 1/5th, jeez.
(If you wanted to make a 3D model in the late 90s you had to move all the individual vertices one by fucking one and do all this tedious shit. No google images to find a base for your texture art, clunky as fuck art programs with no transparency, etc. A character model with Deus Ex polycount that took two days would take like 20 minutes now.)

Also note that while it's moot, 43k/year for polish people or whatever, would be fine

Though, 1M y2k dollars is like 2M now.

>>9419523
Yeah exactly. It's one of the best games on Genesis and hardly forgotten.

>>9416742
you people are so braindead it's unreal

>>9420546
>trust me, I have complete insight
>write it out? uhh um uhh n-no you don't deserve it

>>9420604
Not him, but I think you really over estimate how much people would want such a game. If you really think it's a market though, why not make it yourself? If it seems like a sure bet after all.

>>9421661
I get too horny opening UnrealEd and seeing I could inspect the women models. The proportions they gave them... god damn. Also I started turning over ideas for what would be examples of levels that could have more 'Deus Ex gameplay' and as soon as I had a viable idea, I was hit with the realization that scenario was probably already in Deus Ex, and it turns out it is. This fuckin game man.
Anyway look, maybe you're right. On the other hand the Nameless Mod which is some goofy looking injoke conversion that came out in 2009 when people were right in the thrall of 'oh man 2000 graphics look so bad now', has 60k downloads. Sure, it's free but it's a mod by nobodies not a real game by some small but trusted studio

>>9419381
Lol look at that stupid fucking retard dolphin I hope we don't have to rely on him to kill aliens

The root of the issue is that an individual game has a massive budget now, so gamedev companies focus on what they know works rather than take a risk with new IP.

>>9421752
Except that there are actually tons of small and experimental games being made. But because there's such a huge volume of games these days, unless you go looking at smaller titles all you see are the big ones.

>>9417656
>but also of more variety in terms of gameplay and experimentation than there ever was in the 80's and 90's.
I don't think that's wholly accurate. There are lots of ideas and concepts that have been lost or discarded. Too often the "most streamlined" version of an idea is the only one that remains accepted, and games suffer from convergent evolution because they all pick that one "best way" to do any given mechanic, with everything else being deemed unwieldy or too old fashioned to further explore and refine. It makes the modern games climate feel significantly less "experimental" than the golden age.

>>9421963
They don't though. Some concepts have been largely discarded because they don't tend to be much fun, but many more have emerged. Even just physics based stuff that was impractical on older hardware has lead to all kinds of games that experiment with that. The whole point of experimenting is doing new things not just rehashing old things. There's no reason to make a boring platformer with limited movement and bad control these days other than to do it on purpose.

Then when something genuinely very different using some aspects does come out, like Fez, it lead to many people calling it shit because it wasn't enough of a platformer or action game when it was never really trying to be either of those things.

>>9422037
>The whole point of experimenting is doing new things not just rehashing old things.
Which people don't do anymore.

>>9422039
No, they do. You just seem blind to it. Making a sluggish platformer or "3rd person survival horror with jank combat like Rule of Rose or Silent Hill" is not experimenting, it's the opposite.

>>9422098
Yeah, no, they don't. I'm sorry you keep insisting that these illusionary "experimental" games that aren't exactly like every other modern indie fare exist. They've given up innovating and exploring new ideas and concepts and mechanics.

>>9422037
>The whole point of experimenting is doing new things not just rehashing old things
It's not rehashing to revisit concepts that were discarded BEFORE it had a chance to be fully explored and refined into something unique and interesting. There are THOUSANDS of things you probably can't even conceive of because all you play is dime a dozen modern indie trash and Fez clones. Your whole attitude stinks to high heaven, "it's best if we just play it safe and only use what works! that's innovation!" People like you are literally choking the potential out of the games industry.

>>9422115
>it's best if we just play it safe and only use what works! that's innovation!"

That's the polar opposite of my opinion. I think what you seek isn't true experimentation. But hey as the other guy said, go do it if you think there's a market. Ask not what the game industry can do for you, ask what you can do for the game industry.

>>9422037
>Then when something genuinely very different using some aspects does come out, like Fez,
"Very different?" Fez was a ripoff of a free Flash game called Sky Island.

>>9416169
i think people got more and more retarded and strated paying less attention to original fun games and just wanted gta and call of duty

You can blame a lot of it on the gamers themselves. You'll get something like Capcom rereleasing a compilation of their old non-Street Fighter fighting games and everyone will just shit on them because they're not Street Fighter.