/vr/ - Retro Games

I'm so alone

>>9241483
That is a sega saturn
This is a sega saturn thread
The sega saturn was a video game console. Still is, really.

>>9241589
indeed

>>9241483
I was born in 92 and never knew of the existence of that till almost the end of the ps2 era or even later. Never saw one and never played a game from this till this day and my first console was a mega drive

>>9241773
It's okay, none of us knew about it either. Everybody back then thought the dreamcast was the console after the Genesis.

>>9241483
i have two now
i imported a white one

what games should i play bros?
i can burn any disc

>>9241483
why'd they make such a giant controller for the US market?

>>9242151
It's comfortable imo.

>>9241589
True.

games i had
>road rash
loved this game, i liked playing it normally or just trying to wreck as fast and as far as possible
>nights into dreams
i think this was the pack-in with the console. i didnt like this game at all but the unique camera and flashy graphics were cool at first
>mr. bones
this was a bizarre game with a weird fmv story that i really liked despite some of the gameplay sucking ass (iceberg hopping level specifically)
>bug
shitty grid platformer, lost interest in it quick
i also remember having a demo disc with clockwork knight on it. i feel like im forgetting some games but i cant remember. to me the saturn was kind of an afterthought, i think i got it later after the price dropped. during this era i was mostly ps1 but i was still playing the snes a lot

one day i want to beat panzer dragoon without save states
but not today

>>9242205
dpad is a little weird on the thumb, plus if you take it apart they're crazy complicated. some weird mold or skeleton deal on the buttons.

>>9242145
play liquid kids

>>9242238
oh i remembered i also had alien trilogy, kind of a generic fps

>>9241483
I got a Sega Saturn back in 1997, by that point support for it was basically pulled, but we always bought systems when they were on the way out anyway for those price drops. Dad bought it off of a friend for $50 and it came with like 6 games. That weekend we bought Clockwork Knight and a used copy of Virtua Fighter (the shitty bundle version). We also had Dark Legend, which was an ok fighting game, Nights, Panzer Dragoon, and Brain Dead 13.

I also bought Tomb Raider and Mega Man 8 which are my favorite games to play on the system. Even though better versions came out on Playstation I still love the Saturn versions. I just recently beat Resident Evil for the Saturn.

>>9242238
>>9242380
and virtua cop. they keep coming back to me. loved this game but i always had a thing for basically any gun game

>>9242375
solid rec

i have played on pce & my arcade cab

I love it so much. 8 months ago I dusted mine off on a whim and bought a backup cart to play PDS. Haven't stopped playing the console since.
Some underrated titles imo:
>Shinobi X (secret best game in the series; burn the euro version for one of gaming's best soundtracks)
>Saturn Bomberman (even tho it's widely known, still an underrated masterpiece & best entry of its series as well)
>Battle Monsters (mortal kombat if made by japanese devs on acid, worth it for the novelty alone)
>Rayman, Megaman X4, SotN and any other non-exclusive 2D gem from the era that benefits from the saturn's superior controller
>any 2D shoot em up that lets you use the twin stick to move and downshift to bomb (Galactic attack has this, heard there are others. Really freshened up the genre for me)
>3 Dirty Dwarves (one of the best arcade beat-em-ups ever made imo)
Then of course you have the better known classics like PD, Guardian Heroes, Policenaughts, etc. Just an absolute juggernaught of a console satty lads

>>9242403
Since you mentioned Policenauts, the Saturn version I believe is the only one that has lightgun support. If that's your thing.

Saturn has a lot of decent shooters
>DonPachi/DoDonPachi
>Hyper Duel
>Darius II/Gaiden
>Thunderforce V + Gold Collection (TFII, III+AC, IV)
>Radiant Silvergun
>Batsugun
Small selection from a giant list

>>9242418
Ya forgot one

>>9242380
>a generic fps
Say what? It's fucking incredible and one of my favorite games.

>>9242518
i barely remember it. not sure if i even beat it. i just remember listening to metallica's Load album while playing it, and shooting lots of egg sacs

>>9241483
Been playing Dragon Force. Damn, this shit good. Saturn's RPG library is quite of a nice surprise.

>>9241483
No offense to Sega Saturn lovers but Sega should have skipped it. Just do what Nintendo did....Go from SNES to N64. For Sega, go from Genesis to Dreamcast.

Genesis was still very popular in North America the early to mid 1990s. People still liked in Dreamcast came out in 1999.

No need for a Sega console that is only going to be supported for 2 or 3 years tops. So ditch Saturn. Focus only on Dreamcast. Get it out 1 year earlier. Have it use DVD Discs. Problem solved.

Sega did NOT need Saturn, 32x, or the Sega CD.

>>9243328

>>9241483
Guys rec me some food saturn games. My collection has
>Nights
>Virtua Fighter 2
>Sega Rally
>Sonic 3D
>Virtual On
Really interested in the following: Astal, Golden Axe the Duel, or Amy really standout pretty 2d game

>>9243328
The sega cd was awesome, they should have supported it more

>>9243682
*good saturn games. Not food. Though I do like burgertime.

>>9242145
pretty much any/all of the panzer dragoon games
powerslave/exhumed, bomberman saturn, nights into dreams, and burning rangers

>>9242151
because americans have big hands apparently

wouldve been nice if the dreamcast had backwords compatibility

otherwise, both systems' libraries feel very incomplete. the dreamcast is basically a supercharged 5th gen console

>>9243682
Sonic Jam, if you like classic Sonic. Even if you own the Genesis originals, this collection is very much worth playing.
And of course the Panzer Dragoon games, especially PD II.

Switchless mod or switch mod?

How to dedither Saturn

>>9243328
Sega CD was fine for when it came out. If it weren't for the 32X we'd look back on it very differently. Saturn also would have been fine and was definitely needed. The 16-bit Market was starting to implode, especially when you start looking at more than just sales, and how much money was actually being made off those sales. A lot of those sales in the US were significantly discounted, and even worse games were being bundled in for free. So not only were they not making a lot of money on hardware sales, they weren't making it back in software sales. You can see this being discussed in Japanese newspaper articles of the time with Sega, Capcom, Konami, and even Nintendo discussing how volatile the US market was and how much money was being lost.

So Saturn was definitely needed. In Japan it was desperately needed and in the US it was going to be necessary sooner than later if Sega of America would have just pulled it's head out of it's ass. The bigger problem was that Sega of America refused to let the Genesis go which is what led to the 32X. And that system did far more damage to Sega than the Saturn ever did.

The only reason Nintendo held off until 1996 with the N64 was because SGI couldn't meet the demand of chips they needed. So they were forced to delay, they wanted to release the N64 in 1995.

>>9243328
>Just do what Nintendo did....Go from [gen 4] to [gen 5]. For Sega, go from [gen 4] to [gen 6].

>>9245509
>saturn
>Gen 6

You got your generations mixed up. Sega Saturn was early Gen 5. Saturn competed with Nintendo 64, Sony Playstation, and Atari Juguar

Gen 6 was Dreamcast, GameCube, Playstation 2, and OG Xbox

Sega Saturn was barely Gen 5. It just an upgraded Genesis. It was built for 2D games. 3D games sucked on it and it was horrible to develop games for according to devs. Americans didn't like the Saturn at all.

>>9245530
I think you've confused the Saturn with the 32X.

>>9245541
No. Look up the history of the console. Sega Saturn was originally built to be a 2D Powerhouse. Sega was not prepared for 3D to be the next big thing for home consoles. They still though 2D would dominate. So they dumped a lot financial resources into a 2D optimized console.

By the time Sega found out that 3D was the next big thing, they invested so much money into the Saturn's design. So they rushed to do a quick and dirty solution. Sega cheaply bolted on a 3D chip to the motherboard. But the design was wonky. You had 2 different CPUs on the Saturn. It became a pain in the ass to program games for the Saturn. Developers hated it.

>>9245603
>Look up the history of the console.
Look up the actual history, not the bullshit that's been on the internet for years. Hideki Sato, the guy that actually designed the thing, stated in an interview he had 3D in mind from the get go, it's why the SH-2s were chosen, why a 2nd one was put in, etc.

There was no "3D Chip" bolted on at the last second. The last second decision was the 2nd SH-2 CPU because they felt 1 SH-2 + the SCU DSP wasn't getting the 3D performance they wanted. When they asked Hitachi if the clock speed could be increased Hitachi suggested instead doing a 2nd CPU because they couldn't produce enough chips on time with a higher clock speed.

You didn't have 2 different CPUs either, you had 2 identical CPUs in a Master-Slave configuration. It's no more crazy than arcade boards of the time, the N64 with the RSP+RDP configuration, the PS1 with the CPU + GTE configuration, etc. The 2nd SH-2 is effectively your math co-processor, but instead of being a specific purpose device, it's a general purpose CPU you can set up to do whatever you want. The 2nd CPU is the least controversial thing about the Saturn's design.

And before you try to claim the SH-2 isn't a good replacement for the GTE, I'll point out doing 3D matrix operations is something it's very good at. The SH-2 is a very good CPU for the time that's incredibly fast at doing multiplication and division operations. So good in fact that there's almost no point in giving the SCU DSP these tasks to do because it's no faster than having the 2nd SH-2 do it when you factor in how much the DSP can stall the rest of the system when it tries to access HWRAM or the system bus. The GTE in the PS1 may still come out on top, but the gap isn't nearly as big as people try to claim.

As for developer difficulty, it was no more difficult than previous systems or the N64 for that matter. People just forget how much of an advantage Sony had with buying Psygnosis to design create their devkits, APIs, etc.

>>9245749

"One very fast central processor would be preferable. I don't think all programmers have the ability to program two CPUs—most can only get about one-and-a-half times the speed you can get from one SH-2. I think that only 1 in 100 programmers are good enough to get this kind of speed [double] out of the Saturn."

-Yu Suzuki on Sega Saturn Virtua Fighter development

>>9245773
Where in that quote does he mention when the CPUs were plotted?

>>9245603
You are a fucking retard, that so called 3d chip is what the console uses to render sprites. Without it the machine could not even do 2d.

>>9245749
The second SH-2 was a functional but cost-inefficient way of getting polygon transform performance on par with playstation, but the console still sucks at rasterizing them.

>>9245773
Yeah. Fair point. Programming for 2 CPUs sucks. Saturn was bad design.

>>9245829
Like anon pointed out >>9245749 the Saturn's direct competitors also used an extra processor for polygon math. PS1 had the GTE and N64 had the RSP. In the case of N64, the RSP is literally just a copy of the main CPU but with a vector coprocessor.

I suppose the Saturn is still a bit trickier, though. You can just use predefined microcode on the N64, and the Playstation GTE can be used as an asynchronous coprocessor so you don't have the typical headaches of multiprocessing.

>>9245773
This is probably one of the most misquoted, misunderstood, and out of context quotes regarding Saturn development. This is talking about trying to push things to the absolute limit. Not about just getting decent performance from the thing. In most systems you're not going to be getting 100% from all the different components at any given time.

The bigger issue with the Saturns designs isn't the dual CPUs. It's the penny pinching that happened with the System Bus being only 32-bit, and the RAM being split up between 1MB of fast 32-bit SDRAM, and 1MB of slow 16-bit DRAM.

>>9245817
Even then VDP1 was in the design from a very early point in time.

>>9245820
>The second SH-2 was a functional but cost-inefficient way of getting polygon transform performance on par with playstation
If by cost you mean by how expensive it made the system, I wouldn't really agree with that. Hitachi gave Sega a really good deal on the SH-2s to the point where Hitachi wasn't really making any money on the deal. To them it was more important getting the brand out there to show what the CPU could do.

Honestly the biggest cost of the Saturn isn't the CPUs, the 2 VDPs, board complexity, etc. It's the RAM. When you look at RAM prices of the time and look at what the Saturn cost to produce, almost half it's cost is in the RAM it had. RAM at that time was around $40-$50/MB, and the Saturn had 4.5MB of RAM in it. From the Hideki Sato Interviews we know the Saturn cost almost $500 to produce when it launched, so with those RAM prices almost half of it's cost was in RAM. For what it's worth, the PS1's original production costs were almost the same at around $450ish. So both companies were taking a pretty big loss on their systems prices. By around 96-97 RAM prices had fallen to about $5/MB, which explains the massive drop we saw in the price of both systems by this point.

>>9245854
I guess the Playstation's GPU switch was mainly motivated by the availability of cheaper, alternative RAM.

Playstation should really have had expandable RAM, like the Saturn and N64. It would have taken advantage of the falling RAM prices of the time and closed the biggest gap in 2D performance.

>>9245868
We see a lot of attempts at both to get cheaper RAM. For example Sega's Saturn boards would alternate between SDRAM and SGRAM based on whatever they could get cheaper at the time starting with the VA2 revision. Generally the even numbered revisions use SGRAM, the odd numbered revisions use SDRAM.

>>9245749
>It's no more crazy than arcade boards of the time, the N64 with the RSP+RDP configuration, the PS1 with the CPU + GTE configuration, etc.

Those chips can work independently. Saturn SH-2s can't, they are on the same bus, if one tries to communicate with memory or the rest of the system, the other one won't be able to and stall if it tries to. You have to do super tight access control and/or have the other chip work from the on-chip cache only.
The SCU DSP is even worse.

>So good in fact that there's almost no point in giving the SCU DSP these tasks to do because it's no faster than having the 2nd SH-2
Official sega dev tools have code samples that do matrix ops on the DSP faster than the SH2, including the hooplahoops required to communicate with it.

>People just forget how much of an advantage Sony had with buying Psygnosis to design create their devkits, APIs, etc.
With the PS you took a developer demo sample and changed it around to your needs and you had the rendering part done (actual games were done literally this way according to developer commentaries). On the Saturn you had to start by reading a 100 page book on how to draw a sprite on the VDP.

>>9245879
>Those chips can work independently. Saturn SH-2s can't, they are on the same bus, if one tries to communicate with memory or the rest of the system, the other one won't be able to and stall if it tries to. You have to do super tight access control and/or have the other chip work from the on-chip cache only.
Every component of the N64 shares the same bus to memory. That's the CPU, RSP and also the RDP. Both CPUs were just as crippled without good cache utilization. The caches were substantially larger though.

>>9245868
Also there is one area the PS1 actually does have a memory advantage at 2D Backgrounds over the Saturn. If you're doing bitmap based backgrounds (Resident Evil style stuff for example) on PS1 you can use the MDEC hardware to effectively get hardware accelerated DCT/JPEG decompression. The Resident Evil games use this to store all the pre-rendered backgrounds for the entire room in memory. Saturn doesn't have this so you have to try other alternatives that generally don't get the memory footprint down as well.

For Resident Evil 1 you have about 8 images per Room, which if you compare the data from both versions you'll see the Saturn data takes up more space. Resident Evil 1 is pretty much right at the limit of what you can fit into RAM. Resident Evil 2 though ups it to 16 images per room. Which that just doesn't fit in the stock amount of RAM you have in the Saturn.

>>9245854
>Even then VDP1 was in the design from a very early point in time.
VDP1 started out strictly 2d. Halfway through the development they made it capable of 4-point transformations to allow it to fake polygon drawing. The problem with this is that if you wanted to draw a 64x64 texture shrunk down to16x16, it would still have to sample 64x64 pixels, which made it slow as shit - they used all sorts of hardware tricks to try to speed this up. And you had to store all polygons as separate sprites instead of a texture map.

It was a sprite processor capable enough of faking polygon drawing, but it was still a sprite processor. It also couldn't do any shading unless you used external shading tables. PS could do flat shading and per vertex gouraud shading in a single draw command, which made it significantly simpler to use and it also cut down on the gpu overhead for drawing a lot, allowing it to get closer to its theoretical maximum fillrate.

>>9245894
>The problem with this is that if you wanted to draw a 64x64 texture shrunk down to16x16, it would still have to sample 64x64 pixels, which made it slow as shit - they used all sorts of hardware tricks to try to speed this up
How much can LOD tricks help with this? I know Tomb Raider did something like that.

>>9245892
Yeah, but Saturn instead has 512k more memory and a hardware tile mapper. It can draw a 4096x4096 perspective corrected floor plus a 1024x1024 transparent skybox. And still have 4 other layers to use, while the Playstation barely has memory for two.

also resident evil sucks.

>>9245897
>How much can LOD tricks help with this?
You have to pre-resize every texture at multiple level of detail and use whichever is closer to the size of your polygon, in order to save fillrate, which also uses up more of your texture memory. There's a hardware feature called high speed shrink which tells the chip to only sample every second pixel of a texture, sort of like a primitive form of hardware mipmapping, it speeds up rendering but it is also part of the reason why textures in 3d Saturn games are usually so fucking low quality.

>>9245879
As I said, the Bus and Memory set up is the bigger issue, not the 2 CPUs.
>Official sega dev tools have code samples that do matrix ops on the DSP faster than the SH2, including the hooplahoops required to communicate with it.
Have you actually tried using it? Homebrew devs have and done performance tests with it. Having the slave SH-2 handle it still comes out to be just as fast if not a bit faster. What kills your 3D performance on Saturn generally isn't the matrix operations, but all the polygon sorting and culling.
>PS1 had good code samples
Thanks to Psygnosis. And once SGL came around in 1995 Sega had those kinds of samples too.
>>9245892
>VDP1 started out strictly 2d.
Technically both PS1's GPU and VDP1 are strictly 2D. They have no sense of a Z-Axis and draw everything in a 2D frame buffer.
>The problem with this is that if you wanted to draw a 64x64 texture shrunk down to16x16, it would still have to sample 64x64 pixels, which made it slow as shit - they used all sorts of hardware tricks to try to speed this up.
This is what high speed shrink is for. And it actually does make a huge improvement. The lack of texture coordinates is a pretty major issue though. Though you technically can do it in a limited capacity by abusing how gouraud shading works.

There's no denying that PS1's GPU beats VDP1, but I think it's a bit over-exaggerated at times. Yes VDP1's fillrate is lower and it has some quirks you have to work around, but realistically it's not as bad as people claim. In most cases you're not going to be hitting the fillrate limit.

>>9245910
Sure you have VDP2 on Saturn, but I was just pointing out that if you're backgrounds are bitmap based, PS1 can use the MDEC hardware to give it a possible advantage.
>There's a hardware feature called high speed shrink which tells the chip to only sample every second pixel of a texture, sort of like a primitive form of hardware mipmapping, it speeds up rendering but it is also part of the reason why textures in 3d Saturn games are usually so fucking low quality.
HSS isn't really why textures are low quality on Saturn. In fact games like Tomb Raider don't even use it. The textures are generally worse more with having to try and fit them all in RAM as you mentioned while dealing with the lack of UV Texture coordinates.

>>9245925
>Technically both PS1's GPU and VDP1 are strictly 2D. They have no sense of a Z-Axis and draw everything in a 2D frame buffer.
Don't be an ass, you know full well that as far as PS1 & Saturn are concerned 3D GPU primitives just means texture mapped polygons and also that both consoles have importantly distinct ways of achieving those primitives.
>Though you technically can do it in a limited capacity by abusing how gouraud shading works.
You'll use all your CRAM drawing one texture. It's not usable except in a demo.

You WILL play Sega Saturn this weekend and you WILL be Happy.

Its pretty well known that most Third Party developers thought the Sega Saturn was a pain to program games for. You can quote autism numbers all you want but that's the truth.

So you have a system that is annoyingly difficult to make games on, and a company making very poor business decisions (lol launching Saturn immediately after a speech and giving devs no heads up). It's no wonder Saturn failed in America.

>>9245939
>You'll use all your CRAM drawing one texture. It's not usable except in a demo.
Not really. You'd use about half of it for a 32x32 texture. It's enough to do some spiffy effects like the Metal Mario effect. Hellslave uses it for the reflections in the weapons and is still able to do plenty of lighting, gouraud shading, etc:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv4dm7daQs8

>>9245925
>Homebrew devs have and done performance tests with it. Having the slave SH-2 handle it still comes out to be just as fast if not a bit faster.
Yeah, and still not as fast as the GTE, so it still sucked either way.

>Technically both PS1's GPU and VDP1 are strictly 2D.
Oh fuck off, technically all modern GPUs draw to a 2d framebuffer, a z-buffer is only used for sorting, and the only difference is using perspective corrected texture calculation.

>Thanks to Psygnosis. And once SGL came around in 1995 Sega had those kinds of samples too.
Except that Sony had those samples available by 1994 while the SGL came out in very late 1995 (November I think?), and developers, especially overseas, got it by early 1996. Meaning the games that started seeing use of it came out in late 1996 at earliest. Meanwhile Sony had good kits by 1994, two whole years ahead.
This is not even taking it into account that the SGL was sub-optimal for polygon drawing.

>There's no denying that PS1's GPU beats VDP1, but I think it's a bit over-exaggerated at times
It's not. The PS1 is a generation ahead in speed and features.

>In most cases you're not going to be hitting the fillrate limit.
Start drawing transparent stuff and you'll hit it instantly.

>>9245982
>Its pretty well known that most Third Party developers thought the Sega Saturn was a pain to program games for.
They complained about the N64 as well. There's an old interview on IGN from Factor 5 saying N64 was just as bad as Saturn to develop for.

>>9243328
the only part of your bullshit i agree with is that sega did not need the 32x. i had a genesis, 32x and saturn. the 32x was an unnecessary stopgap. the saturn however, was a next gen jump. it couldve competed with the ps1 if it werent for all the other shit sega was still supporting

>>9245987
>Yeah, and still not as fast as the GTE, so it still sucked either way.
We're talking about maybe 10% slower than the GTE. Again we need to put stuff into perspective.

>Except that Sony had those samples available by 1994 while the SGL came out in very late 1995
SGL was available in early 1995. As for it being behind in the west, blame Sega of America for that one. Everything dev wise was behind in the west because Sega of America was more concerned with the 32X. And again, Sony's devkits and samples are thanks to them buying Psygnosis. If they hadn't done that they'd be no better off than Sega was.

>It's not. The PS1 is a generation ahead in speed and features.
On paper yes. In practice it really only becomes a major issue when you want to do a lot of transparencies/additive blending effects. You shouldn't be hitting VDP1's fillrate limits when drawing your typical 3D scene.

>Start drawing transparent stuff and you'll hit it instantly.
Maybe if you draw the entire scene with Transparent stuff, but typically you're not going to be doing that. Honestly there's other issues with transparencies on VDP1 I'd worry about before even considering fillrate.

>>9245939
>Don't be an ass
He does this all the time, brings up some completely different argument to back his point, it's hilarious to watch him on sega-16 get into 100-post long pissing arguments with retards.

>>9245985
>Not really. You'd use about half of it for a 32x32 texture.
OH NO, IT ISN'T CAPPED TO ONE TEXTURE, BUT IN FACT IT CAN USE TWO. THANK YOU FOR ENLIGHTENING US, I TRULY SEE THE SATURN DIFFERENTLY NOW.

>>9245991
N64 did have a default setup you could just drop a game into though. It just wasn't very fast. Plus the 4k texture limit fucked you over.
The difficulty was when you wanted to use your own custom microcode; the n64 wasn't that different from modern GPUs in that it had a programmable drawing path instead of fixed functions. But this was almost fully hidden from devs. Programming that thing was the difficulty since it was almost a decade before its time, and Nintendo had this "feature" hidden from the devs, only a few of them were allowed to see the docs, and even those were in full japanese.

>>9246029
>He does this all the time, brings up some completely different argument to back his point.
How is it a completely different argument in response to someone claiming one is a 2D chip and the other isn't?
>OH NO, IT ISN'T CAPPED TO ONE TEXTURE, BUT IN FACT IT CAN USE TWO. THANK YOU FOR ENLIGHTENING US, I TRULY SEE THE SATURN DIFFERENTLY NOW.
I didn't say you were going to use 2 textures in it. I was pointing out that you'd still have CRAM to spare for other things. All I said was that it was a trick you can use to pull off certain effects that rely on UV Texture coordinates. I didn't say it was just as good as native support for texture coordinates like PS1 has. Calm your tits.
>N64 did have a default setup you could just drop a game into though.
I think you're severely oversimplifying things here.
>Plus the 4k texture limit fucked you over.
You realize you don't have to fit all your textures into that 4K texture cache right? You can update what's in it as you go.

>>9246012
>SGL was available in early 1995.
early japanese versions, yeah. US version was 1995 summer. The more useful 2.0 versions came out in 1996.

>And again, Sony's devkits and samples are thanks to them buying Psygnosis.
So? Who gives a shit? Third parties still got better devkits a year earlier for the Playstation.

>On paper yes. In practice it really only becomes a major issue when you want to do a lot of transparencies/additive blending effects.You shouldn't be hitting VDP1's fillrate limits when drawing your typical 3D scene.
That's literally what being a generation ahead means you idiot. It was faster when it did more advanced stuff.

And transparency/blending is only so fucking important that the entire gaming industry ridiculed the Saturn for sucking at it, and when a few games DID pull it out, they had everyone shitting their pants (the D-Xhird reveal specifically had everyone going ooh and ahh). Having strong transparency/lightning alone made the Playstation games look twice as good.

>Maybe if you draw the entire scene with Transparent stuff, but typically you're not going to be doing that.
Games specifically didn't do it because doing it would slow the game to a standstill. It's why the horseshit VDP2 sprite rasterizing was created for Burning Rangers, because VDP1 transparency was so slow that it was faster to do a multipass rendering and copying everything over to the VDP2.

>>9246079
It's not just lighting and transparency, it's also having texture coordinates and not having overdraw. "A generation ahead" is correct.

>>9246056
>How is it a completely different argument in response to someone claiming one is a 2D chip and the other isn't?
Drawing into a framebuffer has nothing to do with whether the chip is 2d or 3d, it's a superficial similarity, the fucking C64 could do that.

>I think you're severely oversimplifying things here.
That's cause you always miss the point.

>You realize you don't have to fit all your textures into that 4K texture cache right? You can update what's in it as you go.
That's not the major issue of the 4k texture limit on the N64, but I'm not going to waste time explaining because you'd miss the point again.

>>9246086
Watch out, he is going to retort with how you can do all of that on the VDP1 with some tricks, so it's really equal to the PS1, unless you use the things the PS1 GPU can do better and faster and easier.
Dude has a one track mind.

>>9246079
>So? Who gives a shit? Third parties still got better devkits a year earlier for the Playstation.
I'm just pointing out why it played out that way. It had a lot to do with Sony buying one of the biggest third party devkit suppliers in the industry at the time.

>Having strong transparency/lightning alone made the Playstation games look twice as good.
Sure, but we also need to be clear what we're talking about here. Lighting in most cases here is gouraud shading. The Saturn is able to do this just fine and it really doesn't have much of a hit to performance on VDP1 either.

It really just boils down to the fancy additive transparency effects. That's an area Saturn is going to struggle with. I'm not denying that. The PS1 was the king of those effects that generation, even besting the PC and N64. I'm simply pointing out that in your typical 3D scene of the time you're not going to be drawing those all over the place. In most of these 3D games we look at on Saturn, the bottleneck isn't VDP1's, it's the CPU.

>Games specifically didn't do it because doing it would slow the game to a standstill.
I think the fact that pixel overdraw corrupted it and it only worked correctly in very specific scenarios had more to do with it not being used.

>>9246097
>Drawing into a framebuffer has nothing to do with whether the chip is 2d or 3d
But having no sense of a Z-axis does have something to do with it which I also brought up in that reply. The point was that neither one of these chips were technically 3D.

>Watch out, he is going to retort with how you can do all of that on the VDP1 with some tricks, so it's really equal to the PS1, unless you use the things the PS1 GPU can do better and faster and easier.
Dude has a one track mind.
Take your own advice because I think you've missed a point here. I never said VDP1 was as good as PS1's GPU. I simply said it's not as bad as people like to claim. Yes it really sucks at transparencies, but it's fine at gouraud shading and you have more than enough fillrate to draw your scene with texture mapped and lit polygons. Which at that point you can then start to think of creative ways to deal with your transparencies if you need them. Sure you wont get something as pretty as the PS1 in that specific area, but you can get something acceptable.

>>9246097
>Drawing into a framebuffer has nothing to do with whether the chip is 2d or 3d
But having no sense of a Z-axis does have something to do with it which I also brought up in that reply. The point was that neither one of these chips were technically 3D.

>Watch out, he is going to retort with how you can do all of that on the VDP1 with some tricks, so it's really equal to the PS1, unless you use the things the PS1 GPU can do better and faster and easier. Dude has a one track mind.
Take your own advice because I think you've missed a point here. I never said VDP1 was as good as PS1's GPU. I simply said it's not as bad as people like to claim. Yes it really sucks at transparencies, but it's fine at gouraud shading and you have more than enough fillrate to draw your scene with texture mapped and lit polygons. Which at that point you can then start to think of creative ways to deal with your transparencies if you need them. Sure you wont get something as pretty as the PS1 in that specific area, but you can get something acceptable.

>>9246140
>I'm just pointing out why it played out that way. It had a lot to do with Sony buying one of the biggest third party devkit suppliers in the industry at the time.
So? Nobody cared. They had better devkits earlier, that was what mattered.

>Lighting in most cases here is gouraud shading. The Saturn is able to do this just fine and it really doesn't have much of a hit to performance on VDP1 either.
Lightning on Saturn requires setting up a bunch of things in advance, only works on certain display modes, unless you use some tricks in which case it works in other modes but will eat a chunk of CRAM, and may have significantly lower color count depending on what mode you use (when using shading with palettes you usually only have 1 color component to use as a value to ramp the palette). Shading data is stored in tables in vram, which take extra time to access and process, I forgot how much, something like 200 cycles per polygon.
Lightning on PS requires sending the color next to the vertex data in the draw command. It doesn't require setting up tables in vram, works in all display modes, and always has full color count. It is still usable in hi-res modes too.

>It really just boils down to the fancy additive transparency effects.
And the UV texturing, and the higher resolution framebuffers and the higher color count and that it had THREE blending modes to use, and that it was several times faster and that it had a texture cache on top of that to make things even faster.
So in other words, it was an entire generation ahead.

>I'm simply pointing out that in your typical 3D scene of the time you're not going to be drawing those all over the place
Playstation games literally used them all over the place, whenever possible.

>I think the fact that pixel overdraw corrupted it and it only worked correctly in very specific scenarios had more to do with it not being used.
Steve Snake himself came forward and said that the issue was the speed, not the overdraw.

>>9245957
Possibility: high

>>9246152
>But having no sense of a Z-axis does have something to do with it
A Z-axis has fuck all to do with this.
Saturn took a sprite and did shit with it, PS took vertices and UV mapping and did shit with it. The first is how 2d plotters work, the second is how modern 3d texture mappers work.
Both drew into a 2d frame buffer, whoop dee fucking do, that does not matter, you may as well say they are all 2d because they both draw pixels sorted into an array instead of using a vector display - an argument that would be completely fucking unrelated to the point. You are the fat neckbeard in the room starting your sentences with ACKCHYUALLY.

>I never said VDP1 was as good as PS1's GPU.
You said it's not that much worse, as long as you don't use the things that make the PS1s GPU better. That's like saying a Lambo isn't faster than a Ford as long you drive both at the same speed.

>I simply said it's not as bad as people like to claim.
Well you are correct in that, because it is in fact worse than what people claim.

>>9246229
>They had better devkits earlier, that was what mattered.
Not denying that, just giving context. Sega could have had the exact same hardware as the PS1 and still would have had this problem.

>Saturn is different.
We know, the point is if you know what you're doing you can get good results. Yes PS1 is more flexible and has areas it excels. But again the point is your typical game isn't going to be checking all those boxes. I'm not saying you're going to match PS1 1:1. I'm saying you can get something acceptable that still holds it's own well enough for the time.

>200 cycles per polygon.
From tests that have been done by homebrew devs, Gouraud Shading cost is negligible. It doesn't appear to have much of an impact to performance.

>So in other words, it was an entire generation ahead.
Again, not denying PS1's GPU was better and had more features. I'm simply saying VDP1 isn't that bad and if you know how to work with it you can get good results. You act like VDP1 and the Saturn is worse than the 3DO. It's nowhere near that bad.

>Playstation games literally used them all over the place, whenever possible.
Because it was the king of this effect that generation. N64 and PC didn't pull this off very well either and their ports reworked those effects. Yes those systems aren't as restrictive as Saturn, but the point is you can rework those effects to get something acceptable.

>Steve Snake himself came forward and said that the issue was the speed, not the overdraw.
So Steve Snake developed every Saturn game? And again I love how you ignored the other part. It's not just overdraw, it's also that it flat out doesn't work in certain scenarios. You complain about Gouraud Shadings restrictions but then ignore that half-transparency is even more restrictive. If speed was the only issue with it, most devs would use it and not give a shit. The reality is it just doesn't work for 90% of the times you want to use it.

>>9246282
>You are the fat neckbeard in the room starting your sentences with ACKCHYUALLY.
Calm your tits. I was simply pointing out it was silly to call one 2D and the other 3D when neither really have any concept of 3D and both work entirely in 2D coordinates.
>You said it's not that much worse, as long as you don't use the things that make the PS1s GPU better. That's like saying a Lambo isn't faster than a Ford as long you drive both at the same speed.
This isn't what I said or what I was getting at. I was simply saying the fillrate isn't as bad as people claim and in most cases isn't whats causing the performance issues.

Seriously calm your tits zyrobs. I know it's you as your post style, behavior, language, and demeanor completely matches your posts over on Sega-16.

>>9246302
>I was simply pointing out it was silly to call one 2D and the other 3D when neither really have any concept of 3D and both work entirely in 2D coordinates.
That's not what makes one 2d and the other 3d.

>This isn't what I said or what I was getting at.
>I was simply saying the fillrate isn't as bad as people claim
You said it's not that bad as long as you are not doing anything fillrate intensive like transparency.

>Seriously calm your tits zyrobs. I know it's you as your post style, behavior, language, and demeanor completely matches your posts over on Sega-16.
fucking lmao

>>9243682
>>9242145
Guardian Heroes

>>9243043
Fuck off Metallica is poser shit

>this thread again

No one I knew had a Sega Saturn growing up as a kis. Plenty of my friends had a Sega Genesis. It was split 50/50 between Sega Genesis and SNES within my friend group.

But next Gen, no one I knew bought a Saturn. It was regarded as the mystical oddball whenever we went to game stores. It was kinda there in background. Saturn had like one section of games off in the corner. Maybe a demo unit set up occasionally. I thought the controller looked neat but that's it. The game cases also looked huge, and weird. Like way too big for a single CD. I could be mis-remembering, but I also found it odd that there was no Sonic game for it. Like wasn't that Sega's main mascot? But he wasn't around. Saturn just became this weird system with no games I recognized and Sonic was gone.

My friends were dead split between N64 and Playstation 1. So that's what we did. Then next Gen the majority had Playstation 2 and Xbox. One friend had a GameCube.

But One single friend had a Dreamcast. It was cool though. We played Power Stone on it. The Sonic game was great too. Sega made a pretty good impression on us with their games. But then I recall Dreamcast just suddenly disappeared. Poof. One day it was gone. Stores didn't have it anymore. Like Super short life. Never understood why. Sad end.

After that, my friends moved on and we got hyped for the PS2 for and Xbox. Gamecube became a weirdo system. Oddly shaped with mini-discs that no one else used. But that was okay. It had Mario games and Smash bros. Gamecube became our Smash Bros. Machine.

So yeah. To us, Saturn wasn't even on our radar. No games we recognized as kids. Not even a sonic game.

But Dreamcast was interesting. Power Stone 1 and 2. Sonic. Crazy TAXI. But it just disappeared one day and never came back. Like it wasn't around for long.

>>9246416
Ok

>>9246416
Id say this was the average Amerikkkaner's experience with the Sega systems in the 90. Almost exactly like mine. But then again we've all shared this exact story before.

>>9246386
Ah yes and I'm sure you exclusively listen to Norwegian basketweaving metal right

>>9246427
Fuck you I liked his blog post

>>9246325
>That's not what makes one 2d and the other 3d.
Please explain how a chip with no concept of a Z Axis can be considered 3D. At the end of the day both systems are taking in 2D coordinates and warping a polygon to fit those coordinates. The main difference is one uses quads and doesn't have a concept of texture coordinates, the other uses triangles and has texture coordinates. That doesn't make it 3D.
>You said it's not that bad as long as you are not doing anything fillrate intensive like transparency.
Right, I said it's fillrate isn't that bad if you're not doing something like half-transparency. If you're just going for texture mapped and gouraud shaded polygons you should have more than enough fillrate to draw your scene. Half-transparency has so many other issues on VDP1 that I fillrate isn't anywhere on the radar when weighing the pros and cons of using it. Even if it wasn't 6x slower you still can't use it most of the time.

>>9246325
>That's not what makes one 2d and the other 3d.
Please explain how a chip with no concept of a Z Axis can be considered 3D. At the end of the day both systems are taking in 2D coordinates and warping a polygon to fit those coordinates. The main difference is one uses quads and doesn't have a concept of texture coordinates, the other uses triangles and has texture coordinates. That doesn't make it 3D.
>You said it's not that bad as long as you are not doing anything fillrate intensive like transparency.
Right, I said it's fillrate isn't that bad if you're not doing something like half-transparency. If you're just going for texture mapped and gouraud shaded polygons you should have more than enough fillrate to draw your scene. Half-transparency has so many other issues on VDP1 that fillrate isn't anywhere on the radar when weighing the pros and cons of using it. Even if it wasn't 6x slower you still can't use it most of the time.

>>9246396
you ever notice as soon as it dies, a new one springs up?

>>9246771
>Please explain how a chip with no concept of a Z Axis can be considered 3D. At the end of the day both systems are taking in 2D coordinates and warping a polygon to fit those coordinates. The main difference is one uses quads and doesn't have a concept of texture coordinates, the other uses triangles and has texture coordinates. That doesn't make it 3D.

The presence of a z-axis does not matter in this context; every modern GPU renders everything to a 2d surface (your television), so the distinction is pointless. You are arguing a technicality that was born out of cost saving.

The playstation gpu is designed to accelerate 3d primitives in an industry standard way, processing triangles from vertex to vertex, with the z-buffer and perspective correction removed to save costs. The saturn gpu is designed to accelerate 2d primitives, taking the top two vertices of a quadrilateral texture and then progressing through its Y axis line by line, with a way given to collapse two vertices so it can mimic triangles - resulting in a lot of artifacts, including pixel overdraw and the "bowtie quad".

That's why one can be considered 3d and the other cannot. One accelerates 3d primitives, the other accelerates 2d ones.

>>9246771
>Please explain how a chip with no concept of a Z Axis can be considered 3D
There's no clear line between what is and isn't a 3D chip. You have more 3D features or less of them but all consoles had some, Playstation more than the Saturn and N64 more than the Playstation.

>>9246029
>sega-16
that place is a ghost town compared to 10 years ago

>>9246262
Never seen this Infographic for saturn. Thanks

I'm just a pleb casual but from what I read in magazines and online...Sega Saturn struck me as sexy in looks, but overly complicated in design and more expensive. Not sure whay Sega was thinking.


The same issues the Sony PS3 suffered from. Sony got cocky and made the PS3 complicated and bloated. It's why Microsoft Xbox 360 won fhsf generation of gaming.

>>9242145
BRRROOO NOOOO
BURNED DISCS WILL TOTALLY DESTROY THE LASER
NOOOOO STOP STOOOOP
BURNED DISCS ARE DIFFERENT THAN REGULAR DISCS AND THEY DESTROY THE LASER
THIS IS REAL AND TRUE AND REAL BECAUSE THE GAMEKEK TOLD
ME SO!!!!

>>9247830
>BURNED DISCS ARE DIFFERENT THAN REGULAR DISCS
do you actually believe theyre not

>>9245749

> You didn't have 2 different CPUs either, you had 2 identical CPUs in a Master-Slave configuration.
The input was driven by an motorola 68k that can also be used for other purposes. On the saturn doom port it was used to drive both sh-2's to bypass the poor SH2 bus-to-ram contention if you dont do that. Its nearly a must if you want proper performance from all sources. In short: 2 diferent cpu architectures to write code in assembly with 2 different compilers.


> As for developer difficulty, it was no more difficult than previous systems or the N64 for that matter.

Saturn: had to pull of your SH2 assembly knowledge for proper performance. (i.e: nearly all games that dont suck)
"no more difficult than"
Nintendo 64: High level C code + "early days of what we call openGL" as graphical api.

you can literally read the decompiled mario 64 source code and see those things by yourself, source: https://github.com/n64decomp/sm64

Sega did the SGL library to make a standart interface for graphics in the saturn that uses both cpus but perhalps it was too little and for sure it was too late. Both Sony and Nintendo did way better SDK's right of day one. (Nintendo went with the "Buy an SGI computer, its very similar" and Sony outsourced to SN systems)

>>9246786

indeed.

I got the feel that since "nu-sega" varies between cheaper projects AA and cash grab, the "good olde sega" fans occupied this board as a refuge.

>>9247840
How do you think they write the info on normally published discs?

>>9247862
>The input was driven by an motorola 68k
nope. there was a 68eck in the audio subsystem but it had nothing to do with inputs.

>>9247895
Have you ever bothered to look, or are you so confident in your presumptions?

Can someone explain to me the deal with Sega of Japan VS Sega of America and how it ruined the Saturn? What's the deal since I've heard so many conflicting accounts. One side blaming Sega of Japan for being too controlling while another side blaming Sega of America for being too risky and spending too much money

>>9247986
Sega of America were cowboys who played high-risk texas hold'em. They were winning. Sega of Japan became jelaous and started fucking with them. As a result Sega of America couldn't get their risky strategies working and stopped making money. That's the short version.

>>9248068
Why didn't Nintendo of America have those same problems?

>>9248121
Because their parent company wasn't incompetent.

>>9248121
Noa never has had the same authority as soa. they can't make their own games and consoles like the 32x

>>9248335
>Noa never has had the same authority as soa. they can't make their own games and consoles like the 32x.

If Sega was gonna do the 32x, then they should have just 100% committed and never released th Saturn in America. Imagine if 32x outsold Saturn units and Western developers really supported it. A 32x that carries Sega until Dreamcast.

fighting vipers
tomb raider
sonic jam
wipeout

are best game from this system

>>9248068
>Sega of America were cowboys who played high-risk texas hold'em. They were winning. Sega of Japan became jelaous and started fucking with them.
That sounds pretty typical for an Asian company. They are fiercely territorial and have a strict hierarchical system. However what Sega did was pretty egregious even by Asian standards. They destroyed their entire console division just to make one Company Branch look bad.

>>9247909
The silence is golden, lmao

>>9247986
SoJ was sore that Sonic sold the system, so they doubled down by making an arcade-centric system and Naka fucked things up by refusing to allow Sonic X-Treme to be built on the NiGHTS engine. That's my take, at least.

>>9248695
>no vf2, no last bronx, no pd ii, no vampire savior
and that's just scratching the surface. saturn has a lot of gold, better than ps1.

darius gaiden and offworld interceptor extreme were a couple of my favorites.

>>9250954
It's wrong and has been proven wrong. Do you like to be wrong anon?

>>9245460
My entire screen dims when I open this image

i have nowhere else to go so someone please help:

In Saturn Bomberman Fight you can unlock 3 extra battle stages by mashing start 15 times a second until the intro begins
can anyone even do this? i downloaded autofire programs for controllers and keyboard and on 2 separate emulators nothing worked i am fucking lost
so someone suggest something i legit think the info on this site is just wrong https://randomhoohaas.flyingomelette.com/bomb/sat-sbf/game.html#code

saturn can do some weird shit

>>9254767
https://uw.netlify.app/details/ss/313
This site says to connect Hudson's S-Bom controller and then, while the Hudson logo is being displayed, move the Slow switch to the Hu position.

>>9254949
man that controller looks so fucking cool

i have no idea what hu position means though
like its a third party controller with autofire
surely it means you can achieve this by doing SOMETHING with a basic rapid fire program

>>9248528
I don't think it would have made a difference, the 32x was underpowered just like the saturn. Sega was just not as adept with console hardware.

>>9254794
That's what you got when you force a 2d hardware to try to do 3d.

>>9255971
Here it is being done to make sonics eyes rounded with the cost of just two polygons

>>9255013
>man that controller looks so fucking cool
no, it doesn't. it actually looks like a hasbro RC car control pad made of the shittiest plastic ever with a random pig nose on it. how the fuck can you look at that and think it's "cool"?

>>9256159
what's your favorite saturn controller then uh? don't like a little bit of color ? how do you read that as a pig nose when it's clearly bomberman

>>9255986
No game ever used that model.

I've never actually had the opportunity to use this model of Saturn controller, what's it like?

it's like pottery

>>9257368
It looks cool and sober but every review i've seen about it says that the dpad sucks, which is an enormous flaw

>>9257401
How much do you want for the Saturn? I've looked locally and all the used game stores want jewish gold

>>9241483
The Sega Saturn is the most aesthetically pleasing console and the 3d control pad is the greatest controller ever made

>>9257401
Is this a.... woman? looking for a Saturn?
holy fuck Saturn chads, we won.

>>9245957
But I already am playing.
>Quovadis 2 & Virtual Hydlide

>>9258627
>Quovadis 2
based

>>9258639
Ah, the sniper mech girl!
I even have the 2 Japanese hint guides now and while I did beat it over twenty years ago, it’s fun to translate them via phone app to enjoy Quovadis 2 even more nowadays.
On a side note, it’s time for some Virtual Hydlide because I actually never beat that but I do remember paying maybe around $7 for it back then.
I love Saturn & Genesis especially and it’s nice that my Saturn 3D controller (the ufo) works for both systems via an adapter.

>>9258304
>woman
gross.

>>9257401
I don't get it. Who are these people?

Is this a flex by you showing off how much you love the Saturn and won't trade it away?

Or how she has bad games?

Or how you suck at communication and use one word answers?

Or how she blocked you?

>>9258732
It's about how it's a hot girl wanting some Saturn and anon denying it.
Saturns is TOO based.

>>9258695
You know, if it weren't for the framerate and the ugly digitized graphics, this would genuinely look good.

>>9242058
I and everyone I know definitely knew about it then, they even had demo units set up at most retail stores.
>>9241773
It was gone very quick after PlayStation kicked it’s ass. 4 years and it was gone. Only rich kids had it around launch basically.

Question:

If Sega launched the Saturn normally without the rushed launch that they did (which pissed off a lot of retail stores and developers), would the Saturn system have done much better? Or was it always doomed to lose to N64 and Playstation?

>>9258961
32X was a big factor in its failure, so was the price; if they skipped 32X might have had a better shot. I’ve heard it was more difficult to develop for. I think if it had a slot for Genesis games or was backward compatible with Sega CD games it would’ve done a lot better. Not sure how practical that would’ve been.

>>9258961
Sega Saturn could won if it did more. Like if the cartridge slot was backwards compatible with Genesis games. And if the system was more developer friendly. Also lower the price. $399 was way, way, too much. It needed to be no more than $299 tops.

>>9258972
>Not sure how practical that would’ve been
Not practical in the slightest. The Saturn had pretty much zero hardware in common with the Genesis so it would pretty much need to include an entire genesis. The Saturn was expensive enough without grafting on an entire console.

>>9258990
That makes sense - I’m not familiar with all the hardware specifics of the Saturn (obviously). But I do recall a lot of people having that thought at the time because there is A slot on it “that must be for genesis or 32x games! r-right?”

>>9258990
Your wrong. Saturn has Sonic Jam and played Genesis games no problem.

>>9258972
Dude they don't need BC they just needed to be better than playstation

>>9259016
And be cheaper than the PlayStation.

>>9259015
Those games are ports, that is very different from running unmodified games. Also they do not play with no problems, the sound is completely fucked up because the Saturn lacks the genesis sound hardware. The music is literally a low quality recording of a real genesis.

>>9258972
The playstation didn't even HAVE backwards compatibility at the time

>>9259060
No shit I didn’t say it did dumbass. It didn’t have a predecessor.

>>9259051
>Also they do not play with no problems, the sound is completely fucked up because the Saturn lacks the genesis sound hardware.
>>9258990
>The Saturn had pretty much zero hardware in common with the Genesis so it would pretty much need to include an entire genesis.

No. The Sega Saturn contains a MC68EC000 as a sound processor. The Genesis has a MC68000. And Motorola's own manuals for both sound processors seem to claim the exact opposite of what you say:

"The MC68EC000 is object-code compatible with the MC68000, and code written for the MC68EC000 can be migrated without modification to any member of the M68000 Family."
(Page 1-3 of the 1993 Motorola 68k manual)

So we know for sure that Sound wouldn't be a problem. Any issues arising would be from developers who are lazy or too stupid to know what they are doing.

>>9246262
slim pickin's

>>9259108
>MC68EC000
Oh wow, it has the same cpu. So does like a thousand other systems. The cpu is one of the least important pieces of the entire system.
> we know for sure that Sound wouldn't be a problem
How exactly do you expect YM2612 sounds to be played without a YM2612 present?
Also the Saturn has frame-buffer based sprites, this is completely incompatible withe the genesis scan-line rendered sprites.

>>9259142
>How exactly do you expect YM2612 sounds to be played without a YM2612 present?
SCSP might be flexible enough to do this, but it would require a lot of tinkering and from some god tier FM programmer.

>Also the Saturn has frame-buffer based sprites, this is completely incompatible withe the genesis scan-line rendered sprites.
Not really, other than mid-scanline tricks. There's a reason they successfully ported so many Megadrive games to it.

either way it would've been easier to include one of the very late single chip Megadrives, you'd only have to add one extra ASIC.

>>9241483
i still play mine with my copy of dragonforce like once a year. i love it

>>9259084
Dude Sony had game consoles out before the Playstation

>>9259389
Holy shit (You) have to be trolling. First Sony PlayStation was released in 1994, no Sony game console existed before that.

>>9259498
if u really htink about it , sony had games before the playstation, therefore they are best

>>9259279
> you'd only have to add one extra ASIC
Yes this is the only way, this would still be a significant additional cost in 1995.

>>9258984
it's funny 'cause they did lower the price when the Playstation came out, so it wasn't like you went to a store and saw that one cost more than the other
but they successfully convinced the public that it was too expensive in the months leading up to the Playstation launch

Any good RPGs on Saturn?
I don't really know the first thing about it, more familiar with the other fifth gen console libraries.
Also I like RPGs, obviously, both western and eastern

>>9259829
A bunch
Check the wiki
https://vsrecommendedgames.fandom.com/wiki/Saturn

>>9245957
I will! Thank you, father!

Damn can't find a lie here

>>9260347
BASANDO

This system sucks because it has no true Sonic game for it. Therefore it was destined to fail. I would burn Nights into the ground if it meant Saturn got a true Sonic game. Only Genesis and Dreamcast are true Sega systems.

>>9260386
It might not have an original main Sonic game exclusive for it, BUT, it has the most soulful classic sonic compilation AND Sonic World (which, despite being a small section, is better than the entirety of the Adventure games).
Saturn always wins.

>>9260386
Master System is good too, and its Sonic games btfo the Dreamcast's.

But what really killed the Saturn is no Alex the Kid game, the superiour Sega 'scot.

>>9260409
>scot
austroonlia kun, take your meddies.

>>9259108

shh, nobody tells him about the Z80 in the genesis, or the PSG built-in on the VDP and whatnot.

or even the genesis VDP itself for that matter.

> Any issues arising would be from developers who are lazy or too stupid to know what they are doing.

they probably forgot to press the magical button that makes the saturn hardware run genesis games "as is".

>>9259750
>Yes this is the only way, this would still be a significant additional cost in 1995.

Put it on a cartridge for $100, problem solved. Maybe even launch a rebate program where if you buy a saturn you can rebate your Megadrive for a MD-to-Saturn adapter.

>>9260527
What the hell would be the point. I don't understand the obsession with grafting consoles onto other consoles. If the MD-to Saturn adapter contains and entire MD then why not just sell its as as standalone MD.

>>9258961
I'd rather say that the PlayStation was doomed to win. Nothing and no-one could've beaten the hype for Sony back in the 1990s. They had everyone one their side. Developers. Game journalists. Regular journalists. The marketing was amazing. They out-Sega'd Sega by making a games console for 20-30 year olds with disposable income. Trad manufacturers didn't stand a chance.

Saturn bros... I have a problem.
Recently I got a pal Sega Saturn and Pseudo Saturn cartridge, burned some Japanese games on CD-R, the games worked however they ran slower with smaller aspect ratio.
Is there a way to make my Saturn run games at 60hz?

>>9257401
Who in their right mind posts a photo of a woman owning them...... Jesus what a clown this idiot is.

>>9241483
is the satiator good now?

>>9260742
The PAL system is made for 50Hz

>>9258123
listed for retarded price after I saw a guy in the retro game store buy one for $300 bare without box, I have no intention of selling
>>9258304
>>9258732
>>9260754
that's a man you faggots kek

>>9242145
Idk one of the good ones

Dont invite me i might go #2 in your bathroom after i eat my sub sandwich there and drop a piece of lettuce on your carpet

Where the heck is the Sega Saturn mini? We had a Playstation mini, but Sega couldn't get off their butts and do a Saturn mini? WTF come on.

Anyone have that big recommendation image that had segata on it?

Finishing up some Scenario B post-story exploration before I go for a Scenario C full clear.

>>9261174
i only have a bigger one

>>9261276
thank you based anon, now off to cdromance

>>9260835
I know, but I am asking if there's a way to run games at it at 60hz?
I have heard about the switch mod, but I don't want to open my console.
I know that I was kinda retard, should have bought a Japanese one but I completely forgot about this shit.
I mean my pal ps2 can play ps2 and ps1 games at 60hz

>>9243968
germans do, scots not so much

>>9260742
>>9260835
>>9261445
Screw it, I'm making my own thread >9261680

>>9260742 (You) (You)
>>9260835
>>9261445
Screw it, I'm making my own thread >>9261680

>>9257401
it's funny that you think this makes you look good

>>9261701
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0qZrM5nhVc

>2D Powerhouse
Look I like the Saturn but I cringe whenever I hear this phrase. I don't believe that "powerhouse" is the most natural and intuitive way for thousands of people to describe its 2D graphics, this is such an obvious forced meme. I would think by now that somebody would switch it up and call it something else just because they know everybody else calls it a 2D powerhouse. Was this a marketing term or something? If so that's even worse and you should kill yourself.

If Nintendo Wii can run GameCube games, then Sega Saturn can run Sega Genesis games. Just like how the Sega Genesis can run Sega Master System games.

It's just that during that specific Generation, Sega simply didn't care about programming backwards compatiblity into the Saturn. Even though the Saturn could technically could do it.

>>9262254
it's funny when people who have never programmed say things like this with such confidence

>>9262254
Wii is an updated version of the GameCube architecture. Saturn on the other hand has nothing in common with the genesis.

>>9262326
False. You literally just got told early in the thread that the Saturn and Genesis share the same family of Motorola CPUs.

>>9262337
So does the original apple Macintosh laser printer. Does not mean you can run genesis games on it.

>>9262403
If you are going to make a post about technical specifications, then be specific and exact. Don't be butthurt when you get called out for being wrong. Either do it right or don't do it at all.

>>9262439
The cpu alone is such a small part of the system, that its not even worth mentioning that both systems have the same cpu. Unless all the surrounding hardware is 100% identical then having the same cpu is not even useful as the hardware writes won't work.

>>9260538
>What the hell would be the point.
Kids are usually allowed to have 1 console, unless it's that bastard kid with the rich parents (you all had one in class when you grew up). Buying a new console means selling the old one because the kid will be playing the new one now. Backwards compatibility means keeping the old games, which makes the kids happy for obvious reasons and also makes the parents happy because the new system has more value.

It's part of the reason why Playstation 2 hype was so big (it was a supercomputer, a DVD player *and* a Playstation 1 in the same package), and even Sega leveraged on this with the Megadrive (they had small but vocal Master System fan base when they launched the Megadrive in the US, hence the Power Base converter - Europe even got one for the Megadrive 2).

>>9262464
>The cpu alone is such a small part of the system

This gave me a chuckle. You people really will defend the Saturn even if it makes you sound stupid.

>>9262592
>that bastard kid with the rich parents (you all had one in class when you grew up).
We went over to his house to play Samurai Showdown on his Neogeo. Good times.

>Had Saturn
>Bought Shining Force 3 I,II,III
>Fought through the games in the right order then got to the final battle of III
>Quit
>Sold the system

It's not worth having the system. Memory card is stupid small, it takes so long to load, EN games are too expensive, controller is hollow and creaky with lame hollow buttons while my PS2 dual shock felt really nice.

>>9241483
I was gung-ho for Saturn, and Sega in general. I had a GameGear and a Genesis/CD/32X and loved it. Never once had Nintendo envy.
I got my Saturn fully expecting it to fucking dominate. INSTANTLY got jealous of my friend's Mario64. NiGHTS was amazing and I loved it but after I had thoroughly trounced it in a few days, there was nothing really left to do. Ended up getting an N64 a little while later.
Never touched the Playstation brand to this very day.

But really, once the Saturn failed spectacularly, I dropped out of consoles altogether...until the Dreamcast, lol.

>>9262960
>i dropped out of consoles.... until 3 years later when dreamcast launched
im sure the market missed you bud

>>9243328
>Genesis was still very popular in North America the early to mid 1990s
Yeah no shit, the system was released in late '89, of course it would popular in the 90s.
>People still liked in Dreamcast came out in 1999.
Uh, no. The world was balls-deep in the Playstation at that point with the N63 waaaaaaaaaay back in second place. Genesis was long dead. You're obviously from Brazil or some other stinkhole place that kept getting 16-bit sports games into the 2000s
>No need for a Sega console that is only going to be supported for 2 or 3 years tops
First of all, that's some good hindsight you've got there. Second of all, you have no idea what you're talking about so shut the fuck up

>>9262961
What kind of dipshit point are you even trying to make? So damn eager to be smarmy, you didn't slow down to check if you were making any sense.

>>9262980
you said you bought a saturn (released 95), then bought an n64 (released 96), then "dropped out of consoles altogether" until dreamcast which released 2 years after that and there wasn't any other console released in-between and you already owned 2/3 consoles available at the time, so you didn't drop out of anything you fat fag.
>you didn't slow down to check if you were making any sense
how ironic

>>9262925
>Memory card is stupid small,
It's something like 8000 blocks while a Playstation card is 12 blocks. Over 600x larger.

>>9261271
Is there an English version of the game?

>>9262968
>Uh, no. The world was balls-deep in the Playstation
True but the PS1 was already getting old by this point. People were discussing the Next Gen by 1999. The world was hyped for the Sega Dreamcast and it sold really well in the beginning.

>>9261276
>princess crown
>english translation available
Never ever.

>>9262987
It can only save 1 fucking game PSX was 12.

>>9263326
You're thinking of the internal memory, which is pretty low. The memory cartridges are several times that in size.

>>9263095
>he doesn't know
anon... Have you really given up hope?

>>9262925
3d saturn controller was a masterpiece and way more comfortable than the dualtrash. It even had hall sensor for the stick and triggers which alone puts it on another tier. You don't even have to buy a single game with stuff like fenrir or the satiator, or how about burning games? the japanese copies are cheap as shit and many don't really require you to gasp the language at all

>>9263326
>It can only save 1 fucking game PSX was 12.

I have something like 100 different game saves on my memory cart. You are doing something wrong.

>>9262925
Are you talking about the internal battery? You can still save more than one game and the PS1 doesn't even have an equivalent free option to save.

Finally bought a saturn, are there good 2d platformers to play? Finally felt this controller and it feels fantastic, definitely would be good with a tight platformer game

>>9265623
keio flying squadron 2, astal, earthworm jim 2, steamgear mash and rayman for starters

>>9265787
Thanks mate, forgot about Keio I tried it on an emulator once and it was fun. I'll definitely play the rest of those as well

>>9263061
I worked at Electronics Boutique and I would try to sell Dreamcasts and the most common response was "nah, I'll just wait for the PS2"

>>9263058
Been in translation hell for a while. Hopefully soon.

>>9246262
Astal really dropped the ball for me during the second half and the final boss is fucking gay.

>>9261169
maybe in 10 years

>>9261276
>>9261174
Duke Nukem fucking 3D on the mother fucking Saturn is on the list. This is all you need to know about this list.
Sometimes it feels like all of these lists were made by the same autist who really didn't have the mental capacity to understand what a recommendation actually is.

>>9261276
>99% of the list is vastly inferior ports, often worst versions of the game, or outright abject kusoge.

>>9269673
I recommend u try b4 u d side ;) if u dont want 2 play it on satrn....dont! that simple ;)

>not a single mention of Gungriffon
shameful display!