/vr/ - Retro Games

>60 fps

grandpa the new standard is 120fps

>>9189660
in the quake readme it indicates 20fps was expected and considered playable. Personally I don't care about framerate unless it's offensively bad (doom saturn, n64 as a whole)

>>9189665
>New
Where do you think we are?

>>9189660
a decent proportion of early ps2 titles were 60 fps. i think sometime in the mid to late 00s for pc was it the expectation

>>9189660
Framerate doesn't make-or-break a game. What people actually have a problem with is framepacing, they're just misdiagnosing their grievances.

If a game is able to maintain its framerate, and if the framerate is an integer of your display's native framerate, then most people won't care if a game is 20 FPS or 30 FPS. Bad framepacing was noticeable on CRTs, but it was even more noticeable on early flatscreen displays, hence why the hatred towards fluctuating framerates got worse over the years. Luckily, recent advancements such as adaptive-sync (FreeSync/GSync) have completely eliminated this issue, and lower framerates are far more tolerable than ever before.

>>9189660
>How much was actually considered a good framerate in the late 90's?
I'd say around 30FPS, though 20 was still seen as acceptable, at least on consoles. 60FPS was definitely doable by then on PCs, but on consoles, relatively few games reached it.
>When did 60 FPS become the rule rather than the exception?
On PCs, by the early 2000's for sure. On consoles, it took a while. 60FPS became more common by the 6th-gen, but I'm pretty sure most games still ran at around 30 overall, and in fact a ton of 7th-gen games do as well, which is where PC gamers really started to look down upon console peasants. Seems like it took until the 8th-gen for 60FPS to be absolutely the norm.

>>9189747
Also this. Notice how many people complain about the poor framerate in Rare's N64 games, but few did or even do nowadays about OoT's. That's because Rare games had inconsistent framerates that could sometimes fluctuate anywhere between 10 to 60 depending on the game, whereas OoT was a mostly consistent 20FPS all throughout, so it was much less noticeable.

20 was fine back then. Not great, but acceptable. I personally was a poorfag back then, so I got pretty good at playing with extremely low framerates. Even 6 fps was doable in small doses depending on the game. Then when I went to college, my parents bought me a nice laptop with a Voodoo Banshee card. It felt like driving a Ferrari after years of making do with a Lada.

>>9189660
i don't remember anyone talking about it in the 90s unless if the game was really really slow

Consistency is all that matters when it comes to frame rate

>>9189747
>What people actually have a problem with is framepacing
Actually, what REALLY kills a game's enjoyment in terms of performance is latency.
A game can be choppy as fuck and fluctuate between 50ms and 8ms frame times, but assuming no additional delay, this is much better than playing a super smooth game with a constant 150ms lag between input and screen action.
Games running without hardware acceleration like Quake are far more responsive at 20 FPS.

Man, I remember playing Gothic at the lowest resolution and like 10 FPS and not even realizing it was an awful experience.

>When did 60 FPS become the rule rather than the exception?
How many PS4 games except Fortnite and shovelware ran at 60 FPS? As far as I know like 90% of all people who played RDR2 played it 24 frames per second with frame drops in the big city.

>>9189660
>>9189665
FPS became an obsession with the introduction of lcd screens, since they have built in motion blur. No fps will ever look good on these pieces of shit. Nobody cared about fps on CRTs because even 30 FPS on them looks better than 300 fps on a LED screen, since it draws at lightspeed, having zero motion blur.

>9189660
when I play quake 3 at 125fps and I drop it to 60 it feels choppy as fuck but if I play OoT on a CRT at a locked 20 feels totally fine. i don't get it.

>>9190148
>Nobody cared about fps on CRTs
That's not true. Benchmarking was huge back in the 3dfx days. Literally every PC gaming magazine had graphics card shootouts and buying guides to squeeze out the max FPS possible. I remember back when Voodoo 2 SLI came out, people were gushing about how insanely fast the double card setup was.

>>9190210
He was clearly talking about consoles, not Windows gaming.

>>9190216
He was replying to posts discussing Quake on PC and never once mentioned consoles. If he meant consoles, it was not clear at all.

>>9190210
This. I'm 37. When I was a kid, I was into PC gaming SLIGHTLY more than consoles.

People were absolutely talking about the framerates they were getting in Quake, Quake 2, Mechwarrior, HL:DM, etc. At least my friend group was. We also regularly discussed how choppy Ocarina of Time and Goldeneye were (though we enjoyed the gameplay, sure). PC game magazines also discussed new 3D cards, had ads for them, and talked about FPS benchmarks.

There's some myth that nobody knew what framerate was until recent times. That is absolutely false. Sure, MOST people didn't care and weren't discussing it, but a group of hobbyists were (the same people who went out of their way to buy and regularly upgrade 3D cards).

>>9189660
>When did 60 FPS become the rule rather than the exception?
When 60fps was the default framerate on game consoles.

>>9189660
>When did 60 FPS become the rule rather than the exception?

Caring about framerate that much only started with the PS3 generation

>>9189660
Didn't the majority of NES games do 60fps?

>>9191790
They technically didn't even have frames, as a lot of work was done per field.
Analog video is weird.

>>9191790
SNES and prior didn't have actual frames, they just had tilemaps that were only actually drawn as a frame by the television set.

>>9189660
psx/n64 sub 30:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF9CxAulk04
https://youtu.be/ufctTzr1dbE?t=1456
ps2: 60:
https://youtu.be/UCKQ6jWvw_E?t=380
xbox: 30 ish: openworld
https://youtu.be/tJ8Ekhv9SY0?t=353
xbox 360/ps3: shaders 30 standard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgncQXYQfa4
xbone:
https://youtu.be/5lKEW2gSV3k?t=174

they always chose graphics and screenshots over performance except specific genres; sports/racing/fighting

>>9189660
I thought that driver and banjo kazooie had good frame rates so I would say 25 to 30 was considered pretty good. It was different compared to later gens, something to do with frame timing but once I got a 3dfx card if the games wasn't a solid 30 or 60 then it looked terribly stutterly.
I think games didn't use v sync back then for 3d games so if it didn't affect the games speed it was ok.

The few times a game was 60 fps was just amazing. Even seeing 16 bit games looked amazing after not seeing them for a bit.

Before I got a pc I pretty much couldn't see the difference between 30 and 60 fps. Once I saw pc games run at 5 fps if in high rez I could now see it in most games.

>>9191790
That dumb bugs bunny game and ghosts'n goblins are 2 examples.
Also Wonder boy 3 on sms.

I can't put my finger on the exact game but I know by the time RTCW came out I was adjusting settings to get 60fps and up.

>>9189660
75hz for PCs
Why do you think graphics settings exist?

>>9191806
It was 240p, it was absolutely frames

>>9189747
>>9189751
>>9189881
>>9189883
>>9190232
It wasn't a big deal in the 90s, but it was definitely discussed. Not in a sense that it was autistically measured and people had a meltdown if it dropped a frame like today, 30fps was considered good. People took issues only when games stuttered.
Then you had exceptions like Daytona where the 60fps were actually advertised, but exactly because it was something hardly achieved.

Lol most games were 60fps in the 8 and 16 bit era, console and arcade. 30fps was the exception for exceptionally good looking games of their time like outrun and metal slug. And sometimes shit games. For example a lot of data east library in arcades was 30fps or some weird mix. But data east was not a good developper. I don't know how they managed to snatch robocop and ghostbusters liscences over konami, capcom etc. "But muh karnov!!" fuck off.

PC games is different but who the fuck cares about pc games before doom lol are you gay.

>>9189660
50 fps PAL and 60 fps NTSC were the gold standards for 8-bit and 16-bit games. Most C64 shmup games ran at 50/60 fps with no slowdowns.

>>9193268
>That dumb bugs bunny game and ghosts'n goblins are 2 examples.
Also Wonder boy 3 on sms.
Excitebike as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0ndYWlMkXI&t=719s
And SMB.

>>9193457
https://youtu.be/bCYv25mmZYg?t=77

>How much was actually considered a good framerate in the late 90's?

On consoles, 15 was considered ok, 24 was considered great, and 30+ was mostly the domain of fighting and racing games.

On PC, 30 was the considered ok, 40 was good, and 60-70 were great.

60fps became an expectation on PC by 2010

>>9194289
>286
Lmao that CPU was discontinued in 1991. Wolf 3D was intended to run on i386, and it's really smooth.
https://youtu.be/763_h1q1mmA?t=21

>>9189660
It was always 60. If you couldn't do 60, it was unacceptable. No argument permitted.

>>9189660
Quake had a little icon programmed into it, it would pop up on screen if the frame rate dipped below 10FPS.
So that right there says that id themselves considered anything above 10 to be playable.

>>9193280
Progressive scan still has fields, anon.

>>9193280
They still barely constitute frames, because further still, a lot of work is done per scanline. A full frame literally doesn't exist anywhere, and only the persistence of vision or a DAC manifests it as a full frame.

>>9194317
>>9194289
As he said, who cares about PC gaming before Doom. Wolfenstein 3D is notorious for acting weird when the framerate reaches the screen refresh rate (fire balls move too slowly).

Doom decided to just cap it at 35 FPS and base every time step around that. This was without question the right thing to do at the time, as even the most powerful 486 systems could drop below this. In a modern context, this is suboptimal, but interpolation works pretty well for source ports.
With VRR, 35 FPS is surprisingly pleasant. I just played through the Doom games in the BFG edition, which doesn't use interpolation.

>>9190140
>How many PS4 games except Fortnite and shovelware ran at 60 FPS?
I would be willing to bet that it's closer to 50% than 0.

>>9195893
yeah PS4 made 60fps common place on consoles again. The 7th gen ended a long time ago.

>>9190148
This makes zero sense. CRT motion clarity only benefits when V blanks are synchronized with frame updates. Anything else is going to cause (a crisp kind of) ghosting.

On the contrary, LCD's basically didn't care whether or not the FPS matched the refresh rate, as long as it was an integer factor away, so achieving 60 FPS wasn't as important.

>>9189660
>When did 60 FPS become the rule rather than the exception
when competitive fps games got big, like cs and q3

>>9189751
>Seems like it took until the 8th-gen for 60FPS to be absolutely the norm.
the norm on PC maybe,but on console you still get plenty of games that run at 30 fps and sometimes dips below that.

Toms hardware back when it was just a guy named thomas in his basement running all these benchmarks himself. Every video card was tested on every CPU, and it was very transparent and fair. FPS was the main criteria but image quality was also important. not all video cards could display the same visuals back then. The same game looked different on power VR than 3dfx, as an example.

>>9196275

>>9196275
Also transparent on what was done in quake during the fps measurement.

Shady fucks were posting fps scores from the title screen or tucked in a corner with no action on screen at lower resolution. The bigass benchmark was 640x480 with mutliplayer action onscreen, the kind of workload you encounter in an actual game.

>>9196275
Man, the first Voodoo was such a pile of shit. Voodoo 2 was the first worthy Quake card, in my opinion. Even at 800x600, Quake 2 can more often than not hit 60 FPS on that.

>>9196318
There's something endearing about the implied edginess of a word like BIGASS. Truly a simpler time.

>>9189660
I don’t remember hearing a single mention of FPS until the late 2000s. I didn’t really play PC games though

>Mogs the fuck out of everyone by achieving 60fps on a fischer-price console with 30 goddamn simultaneous racers

>>9193457
>But data east was not a good developper.
Shit taste

>>9197195
Yeah, achieved by having extremely simple graphics and cut-down microcode.

>>9196275
3dfx baybee

>>9197085
>Even at 800x600, Quake 2 can more often than not hit 60 FPS
Not early on. Drivers got better eventually but at launch you needed SLI with two voddoo2 cards to reach 60fps. Pic related was September 1998.

3d gaming in 1998/1999 often resulted in the need for either different versions of the game executable, or different game patches from each manufacturers website. Like for tomb raider if you wanted to use your 3dfx card you had to download an entirely different exe file to launch the game with to make use of your hardware.

>>9197230
>1998
The CPU is going to drag that average performance down. Massive1 requires multiple texture uploads in some frames, which can wreck a 440BX-based system.
Especially if you use a more reasonable 480p, Quake 2 starves for more CPU cycles.
The point is that the Voodoo 2 is more than able to handle the demand, given it's not being bottlenecked.

think i had something like this but recall a bit better fps, guessing voodoo2 was too new for original quake
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suC5MRdJ8as

>>9197245
>The CPU is going to drag that average performance down
In September 1998 no faster CPU existed than a pentium 2. Pentium 3 was still half a year away, and pentium 4 was more than a year away.

Hardware was obsolete so fast in this era. It was a tough time to keep up until the arrival of the geforce. After the P4 and geforce era began, and the ATI "All in one video cards" settled in things got much better for PC gaming in 2000 onwards, but the later half of the 90s was a fucking shitshow.

As an example, the N64 absolutely crushed gaming PCs when it launched but 2-3 years later gaming PCs made it look like a broken toy two generations behind. 1996-2001 was probably the most important half decade in gaming history, next to 1978-1983.

>>9197293
>Pentium 3 was still half a year away
And you arguably need that to fully saturate a Voodoo 2.
Heck, even a Pentium 4 may end up being beneficial. I played the Unreal Tournament demo on a Pentium 4 with a Voodoo 2 and ran it super smoothly, but benchmarks from the era show that even many Pentium 3's struggle with the game.

>>9197206
Yes I also think they did a great job, I’m glad we agree

>>9197195
Now try doing that in 480p

>>9190361
>>9191293
This. During the n64 era, i didnt really understand n64 was low framerate, it was the only time i've ever seen 3D Graphics. Gamecube era came out with 60fps being pretty dang common. It was PS3 era where for some reason, 30fps became the norm and after a whole generation of 60fps, it was very noticeable it was a downgrade.

>>9189747
I will agree this is important, but you need to stop making claims of what "other people" care about. I can tolerate 30fps, it usually takes a little bit for my eyes to adjust to it, but that doesnt mean i dont have a problem with it. I just accept that that's the best Nintendo could do with it's hardware and I gotta accept that's what I'm gonna get.

Why am I remembering pc games running at 72 hz?

Oh yeah 144, that makes sense

>>9190148
Fuck off John linnerman

Oled rapes any crt ever made

>>9197545
>Oled rapes any crt ever made
Absolutely - in the 5 years it will last for oleds are great.

>>9197578
holy copium
no one cares about your cult
fuck off

>>9198240

T&L made the difference in the low-end.

>>9189747
Don't listen to this guy, he's half right but he's also a retard
>>9189660
It depends on the demographic/game/genre. Quake/FPS players really didn't want to play at low framerates because
A. Visual clarity during high motion is important
B. The quake engine has weird physics idiosyncrasies around framerate, you jump higher, longer etc at certain FPS, but your monitor refresh rate doesn't actually matter in that regard either. There's actually banned refresh rates in certain Quake engine games because of this, like competitive cod4 for example
https://youtu.be/he02vJvKaRs

>>9195849
240p is true 60fps. Each screen refresh has identical timing (ignoring the NTSC standard), so there are no odd or even fields. And really the idea that 480i60 is not 60fps is nonsense, because the temporal resolution is still 60Hz. If you deinterlace it to 480p30 you harm the motion quality, despite 480i60 being nominally "30fps".

>>9197531
Mode 13h was 70Hz. Some DOS games ran at 70fps, but 35fps (70/2) was more common (e.g. Doom targeted 35fps).