/vr/ - Retro Games

>>910351
Personally, I think the Oracle games improved on LA in every way.

>>910351

>Different music in each dungeon

Not needed. ALTTP is near perfect and what few flaws (like the hilarious glitches that let you beat the game in 5 minutes) it has do not detract from the overall game one bit.

>Ocarina I can see.

I can't. It's over-rated garbage. ALTTP is better in every way. Zelda never needed 3D. I own it (complete) and never play it. No, it's not for sale. I'm waiting until some sperglord/hipster/zelda fanboy wants to cough up a premium for it.

This game is a metaphor for the creators mortality. We like to interpret it as a fish having a dream and when it wakes up, Link sails away to his next adventure.

Link died in that storm. Koholint is a euphoric moment before he passes away. He dreams of one last moment of true glory. Further awakening from the dream is like Link finally ascending into heaven. But it just so turns out heaven is another adventure.

>>910391
>a similar glitch that's also existent in versions of link's awakening.

Ocarina I totally agree. It felt big as a child but to be honest that's before real open world games came out.

>>910391
I dunno. A Link to the Past seems kind of barren to me. The overworld is full of needless filler. (Link's Awakening's was smaller by virtue of the cartridge holding less space, but it was richer.) There are no real towns/villages/people to speak of, the world feels fake and the dungeons are kind of dumb. Pretty much every dungeon you just press forward and kill enemies. Link's awakening has some far more unique puzzles and elements. ALttP starts and pretty much funnels you right into the first dungeon, and from then on it's pretty much slogging through dungeons with little exposition or motivation.

The score against Link's Awakening is that overall, it is still an easier game. This isn't really a bad thing, but it makes gamers write it off as a kid's game.

Although the Eagle's Tower still stands out as one of the best dungeons in the series.

>>910408
The boss may have the casuals cringe though.

>>910408
Honestly I feel the same way. I never felt compelled to finish LttP, I only really beat it because I used a guide to just sort of get it over with. The size of it feels like many Zelda games; really big, but really empty too. The overall effect is a feeling of pointlessness, like everything was just made large because they could, and you just spend a lot of time walking from place to place on the map. Too often do Zelda games suffer from that element, and it's perhaps because of that fact that Link's Awakening really shines from having such a packed overworld fit into a much smaller space.

I will say that as much as I love the LA soundtrack, I still probably prefer the LttP tracks, they're really good stuff. LttP also has a ton of cool items, though LA still takes the award for the most effective and compact item set, I think.

>>910351
I agree entirely. I can't even count how many times I've replayed Link's Awakening, it's easily my favorite entry in the series, though I really do enjoy all of the 2D games.

Link to the Past is better if only for the fact that you aren't CONSTANTLY pausing the game to reconfigure your A and B buttons.

>>910380
This. LA:DX is my third favorite Zelda game, but the two Oracles each individually beat it in my opinion.

>>910351
Mah nigga. I've been arguing this point for years.

>>910380

Agreed, LA did the zelda formula right but the oracle games took the games and improved upon the formula greatly.

pic related

Link's Awakening will never be the best because it never fucking shuts up.

>>910393
Reminds me of that short story, of the guy that burned a civil war bridge and was hung for it. He envisioned himself escaping and right as he came home his neck broke on the noose.


An occurrence at owl creek bridge, I believe

LttP has a much, much higher difficulty. Much more complex dungeons, more powerful enemies.

Unfortunately, that's pretty much all it has. It's a dungeon crawler, with NPCs being pretty much afterthoughs of little to no impact. Immersion basically doesn't occur. There's not much railroading you from dungeon to dungeon once you've beaten Agahnim, so the game is 'Nonlinear', but you're still basically expected to go from dungeon to dungeon, with very, very little character interaction. Overworld exploration exists to find gimmicks, not because you're actually exploring an entirely new world for yourself.

LA is, of course, the much easier game (The DX version even more so, as the added owl statues give you explicit solutions for basically everything), but the immersion you're experiencing when playing it is so much greater.

NPCs aren't simply item-dropping ATMs, but actual, real and fleshed out characters you care for. The game has so many neat little details - just think of the Marin sequence or the ability to steal things - that, although LttP wasn't WITHOUT them, simply overshadow its predecessor.

And the mood(s) the game sends you through - from the super happy fun time of the early game, and the uncaring, 'Who are you? We'll eat you' dungeon themes to the later 'The end times are coming' dialogues and melancholic dungeons, the desperate warnings the VILLAINS give you, just wishing to preserve their world - just plain beats LttP's same old story. Same with OoT, come to think of it - it wouldn't be until Majora's Mask that a similar feel was replicated.

>>911982
continued

I'm not sure I agree with the OP, re: Smarter Dungeon Design - though LttP's dungeons often feel more 'Big' than 'Smart', so I'm not strictly disagreeing, either. Apart from lvl 7, LttP's dungeons are a tad too easy, though -, with with regards to setting the mood (What he means with different music in each dungeon, I imagine), with regards to NPC interaction, and the trading sequence, he's spot on - and they show how LA is actually the more influential Zelda when compared to LttP. What parts of LttP were carried over to later titles that weren't in its predecessors?

...

Yeah. Okay, I'll give it the two world gimmick (OoT/ Twilight Princess/ Oracle games, particularly Ages/ Arguably Skyward Sword), but that's pretty much it.

But pretty much every new idea that was tried in LA made it to the later series. IMO it also got its spiritual successor in Majora's Mask.

>>910351
>- the very first trading game
That isn't a good thing.

Link to the Past really explored the concept of Layered terrain more than any top-down game of its time, and it really shows in the way each dungeon is explored.

But Link's awakening really focused on capturing the original zelda feel and modernizing it.

The oracle games are objectively better, and much more colorful, but They feel more like an expansion of Link's awakening than a real sequel. This is in no way a bad thing, But it's a reason I would never recommend playing the oracle games over Link's awakening (which should never be a decision in the first place)

>>912040
The trading segment in Link's awakening threaded into the games story and never gave you a direct answer as to what to do with each item you get. So at least half of the time, you get a little "Aha!" moment when you realize what to do next.

But I completely agree that it was poorly copied in OoT and the Oracle games.

I've always alttp more boring than LA.

>>912075
>The oracle games are objectively better, and much more colorful, but They feel more like an expansion of Link's awakening than a real sequel. This is in no way a bad thing, But it's a reason I would never recommend playing the oracle games over Link's awakening (which should never be a decision in the first place)
Mhm. The Oracle games certainly upped the difficulty curve, but I find that treating them as 'The Oracle Games' is doing them a disservice.

Oracle of Seasons in particular, I'd say captured the feel of Link's Awakening quite well, and, although its plot is more of the old 'Stole ya girl!' variety, has a great deal of charme to offer. The Subrosians and their underworld are a huge addition as well. Without nostalgia goggles on, I think I'd agree that it is a better game than Link's Awakening, and likewise that it adds a great deal to its formula.

Oracle of Ages, on the other hand, I feel tried too hard on the 'Srsbsns' side with the Queen's backstory, and where it tried to be charming and humorous, as with the Tokay, it misses the mark. I really wouldn't consider Oracle of Ages to be on par with, yet alone superior to Links Awakening.

Yes, the two games are connected. But they're still different games, and experienced differently.

>>912130
Season's biggest problem was Din and Onyx have no real presence in the game until the very end. The initial damage he causes is all over the place, but then he hides away in the very corner of the map. Can't really think of anything he WOULD be doing, though. Maybe chasing you around like Nemesis, but that probably wouldn't work.

Seasons does have a really great world around it, though. and the Subrosians really carry the game. I didn't give them enough credit when I first played this game as a kid.

>>912075
>But it's a reason I would never recommend playing the oracle games over Link's awakening (which should never be a decision in the first place)

speak for yourself. I got Oracle of Seasons before Link's Awakening. it didn't bother me at all.

>>912213
>Season's biggest problem was Din and Onyx have no real presence in the game until the very end.

imo I thought that didn't matter at all. character introspective is the key word. what would you do if you were Onox?

>>912232
I was speaking for myself, though. That's why I used 1st person pronouns.

>>911895
Where was that? I don't remember this part. Eagle Tower maybe?

If there was a Zelda game that actually remained faithful to the conventions of the original LoZ I'd nominate that.

Since there isn't one I have to nominate LoZ.

>>912243
If I were Onyx, I would have the capturing of Din and the Sinking of the temple happen in a flashback. That way there would be less connection to the villain, and I wouldn't expect him to be more active.

LA to me is the epitome of great overworld design, character development/interaction, and zelda item selection. The island is fantastic to explore, with large and varied locales despite its absurdly small size. Characters actually have small plots to follow and serve real purpose in the game, rather than being typical NPCs who just stand around and say meaningless lines. The items you get are some of the best in Zelda history, particularly because they all increase your ability to explore the overworld, while still being useful in dungeons. I honestly can't think of many Zelda games that do better, as most of their item sets are made up of about 50% overworld exploration items and 50% dungeon completion items. With LA, there are only a few items which fall into either half, with most sitting pretty inside of both categories. Because of this, they come off as useful, rather than under-utilized or gimmicky. It's because of those items that the game really hits a home-run in Zelda's 'explore to find dungeons so you can get a new item to explore even further and find even more dungeons' department.

>>911984
It's funny, because reading this thread makes me see more of the similarities between LA and MM, and yet LA is my #1 Zelda and MM is near the bottom for me. I think it's because despite their overall similar themes (heavy doses of character interaction and 'woo it's adventure time vs. the world is ending all around me'), the two games are very different in other aspects.

>>912270
Sorry, but I would never would have continued playing Zelda games if I had to continue burning down entire forests to find dungeons and then deal with rooms full of these fuckers. LttP fixed every problem the first game had.

>>912075
Objective is an improper word.

Besides that, I would just say that I disagree with your statement. I love LA, but I get bored of both Oracles games within an hour. I have no idea how I ever brought myself to complete Ages, likely achieved only through use of a guide a la LttP, in an effort to just get it over with.

I dunno if this will really make sense to anyone, but whenever I play LttP, I feel like I'm playing Minecraft. I can tell that there's something there to make people really enjoy it, but all I really feel when I play it is that I'm just slogging through a big empty game. The music is good and the core idea is nice, but it just doesn't feel good when it's so excessively lethargic. The overworld, dungeons, enemies, just about everything about LttP feels lethargic, like I was playing a game in slow-motion. Almost like a small and simple game was made unnecessarily large just to satisfy some drive to do it. It's like 'this is the SNES, we have to make it BIG.' I just can't stand to play it as a result.

For the record, I'm also that guy >>912310 and >>912306

>>910351
Congrats. You played Link's Awakening first. However, in the real world, ALTTP is the better game.

Any Zelda that forces heart containers on you is an inferior Zelda experience.

>>912351
Which ones did that? LA? Honest question as I can't remember.

>>912358
Link to the Past

>>912326
That is interesting, because for my money ALttP never felt empty or like a slog. In fact, one of the things I really like about it is how full it is: there's always at least one thing to do in the overworld between dungeons, and you are never more than 30 seconds away from some secret or sidequest or thing to do. You can turn it even after months away from it and still be guaranteed a great sandbox for messing about in.

But comparing it to LA I can see what you mean about it being so huge and lethargic, but I never really felt this way towards it. I LOVE the fact that LA is so compact and feels so fleashed out with the characters and settings. I can see how ALttP might seem empty in comparison, it's just that I never got to play LA until relatively recently, so that comparison was never really made in my mind. I don't want to make the assumption that you played LA first or anything though.

>>912310
That word has been abused far too often on this site, but in this case I stand by my use of it.

The Oracle games 6 years after Link's Awakening. The games were larger, They were designed from the ground up to work in color, and they had more established characters and Lore to work with when they made the story.

Subjectively, I think Link's Awakening is strung together better. The stranded island scenario fits with the games compact map designs and establishes more mystery to the game.

>>912326
I understand what you're saying, but I disagree completely.

2D Zelda games have always been about movement. Wether it's positioning Link tactically, dodging fireballs coming from the corners of the screen or running around looking for a way forward, you're constantly moving. Now, ALttP was obviously made with the "bigger and better" mindset in mind, but there's one aspect that completely negates the otherwise tedious travel time and makes for a lot of new interesting situations that raises it to a whole new level:

The Pegasus Boots.

Simply by having this item, the game keeps all the elegance of smooth movement while still having enough room to create all those unique moments that otherwise would've been lost if the spacing was shrunk down (think of those big Misery Mire rooms for example). By comparison, LA feels cramped, and doesn't pull of a lot of the things that ALttP did so well. Trap rooms became samey, enemy count was reduced, restricted movement meant less opportunity for the game to throw interesting rooms and pieces of overworld to navigate through at you, not to mention a severe lack of projectile fire due to having less space to manoeuvre in.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not bashing LA, I love both of them almost equally, but when it comes down to it, I feel it's ALttP that has the edge.

>>912403
LA had the boots also

>>912406
The rest of the game wasn't designed around them. LA uses it almost exclusively for tricky jumps.

>>912406
It does but you have to remap them every single time you want to use them since they lost the dedicated button. That's always been one of my major gripes about Link's Awakening actually. I hate the constant item switching in generally but I REALLY hate it for the Pegasus Boots.

>>912258
turtle rock, level 8

>>912409
>>912412
>>912406
aLttP was made for a TV screen to show off a systems Vibrant colors. There a lot more Popcorn gameplay to it. The Movement of the game is also much looser than in Links awakening which is more gridlike, both in the way link moves and the enemies movements, so the extra legroom is needed.

Links awakening was designed for a handheld system which meant the game had to have a much faster and compact pacing to it. Not only did everything have to fit on a smaller screen, but the player need more frequent feelings of having accomplished something in the game, because they were far more likely to be playing the game for quick intervals than they would on a SuperNintendo

>>912375
Admittedly, LA was my first Zelda game, though I appreciate your willingness to not chalk my opinions up to nostalgia. I am never sure of how I sit with those games though. Even just last year I would have said that Zelda 1 is my favorite and LA is a close runner-up. Now I think LA is a favorite and think Zelda 2, formerly my bottom-lister, is a really sweet game. Opinions change, as they be. LA just really seems well-built, somehow seeming large and ripe for exploration, yet also small and personal with its different areas.

Though now that I think of it, it has been a long ass time since I gave LttP and the Oracles a try. I think I'm about due to give them a second chance, especially since it finally clicked for Zelda 2.

>>912383
Perhaps those statements are true, friend, but your original post didn't say that. Rather, it simply said that the Oracle games were 'objectively better', a phrase much less descriptive. I understand what you meant now (and agree even, the scale of the time-jumping stuff in Ages blew my mind), but I can only say that now that you've explained it further. Just seeing the original message, I would not have come to the same conclusion. In the future, I merely recommend that you make your statements closer to those of your second post than to those of the line that I initially quoted.

>>912403
I guess it's just a difference of opinion really, as I always thought of the Pegasus Boots as a crutch to make up for the slow movement, rather than as a focus of the game's design. I don't really remember any important uses of the boots in LttP like those you describe, and the ones that you mentioned I remember appearing in places of LA as well. As I said above however, it has been a while since I played LttP, so I really should play it again to update my opinions.

>>912425
Been a while, Turtle Rock. I gotta go finish my replay from last year.

I absolutely love LttP, but you're right that the handheld Zeldas have gotten kind of the shaft - can we please talk about how great Minish Cap was? Sure, there's been bigger overworlds, but the shrinking gimmick was put to fantastic effect, the dungeons had a really great balance of decent difficulty while still being, you know, ACTUALLY FUN to play, and there was in general a lot of charm to it.

>>912456
I only played it for about an hour. Is it worth more of my time?

>>912307
>had to continue burning down entire forests to find dungeons
>only one dungeon was under a tree, and it stuck out like a sore thumb
>complaining about difficult enemies being difficult
>implying babby easy LttP was an improvement at all
No anon, YOU are what has killed Zelda

my gameboy color is still somewhere stored away with LA in the back. it's been there since I got bored of pokemon blue. only two games i ever needed for that system

>>912461

not really, it's too easy and suffers from TLDR syndrome

>>912270

I'm with this nigga, the original is the best 2D game.

>>912520
I'd rather play a Zelda game with a legitimate and fair difficulty level.

>>912520
Shoot, I thought you were joking, but then I took another look at the boxart and there it was.

Now I feel stupid.

>>912598
>>912520
you two are morons

>>912598
You misspelled "babbys"

>>912358
LA did do that. You couldn't get the instrument until you grabbed the container. It was something I didn't realize until I replayed it -- I was planning on doing a three-heart run only to find out I had no choice but to grab the fourth heart.

>>912607
>Babby
how is that formed?

>>912307
>and then deal with rooms full of these fuckers

Casual. Fill a room with the blue darknuts, some blue wizards, and a like like or two and you've got yourself a party. If only the 3D Zeldas actually had difficult combat.

There is no "best" zelda.
They're all shit.

>>912456
I beat Minish Cap recently and it was so good

I just wish there could be a console sequel with LttP sized overworlds and item selection

>>912598
Back to >>>/v/ you go

>>912456
OP here. I fucking love Minish Cap. Best graphics of any Zelda game ever. I only wish it didn't suffer from it's length. I feel like they were pressured to hurry and release it, because nobody really cared for it, and it wasn't really hyped. Everyone was drooling over Twilight Princess, which was still almost a year away, so Minish Cap really did get the shaft here.

I'm so proud of this thread. All the handheld Zelda love makes me glad I'm alive.

>>912929

Agreed

>>912130

I disagree,

replaying oracle of seasons, I thought that the game and most of the bosses were too easy. Puzzles were incredibly simple, and Onyx didn't really show much of a presence and was really a very cliched villain who didn't do much besides the initial sinking of the temple of seasons.

In Ages though, there's much more characterization, the dungeons were much more challenging, and the (mid) bosses required a lot more thought to them compared to seasons combat oriented bosses.

I mean, it all falls down to opinion but I personally consider ages to be miles ahead of seasons.

>Smarter dungeon design
Not in the slightest. The first 6 dungeons keep everything fairly linear and none of the bosses in the game are worth mentioning. The final 2 dungeons are nothing but monotony due to the switch hitting and the excessive back tracking.
>Different music in each dungeon
Fair enough, but kudos to you if can actually remember any of them.
>Unique, more fleshed-out world with NPCs to talk to
I agree.
>More interesting overworld
The overworld itself is just inferior and inconvenient. Traveling around it is a chore. The warping system doesn't help much at all and neither does Manbo's song. The biggest issue I have with comes with the way the game is designed. The Game Boy only has two buttons to work with, so this leads to a lot of menu opening to get out the item you need to progress. Having to pause the game to equip the Power Bracelet, Roc's Feather or the Pegasus Boots constantly is really bothersome. All of these barriers are placed just to prevent you from exploring areas early, keeping things linear. LttP did have a few areas blocked off, but the overworld was mostly open. And the exploration was certainly more rewarding in LttP when you get items like the Cape or Ice Rod.
>Better Story
I guess.

>>911982
>LttP has a much, much higher difficulty. Much more complex dungeons, more powerful enemies.

Debatable. Your items are better too - more bottles, stronger weapons.

Though LA's Boomerang is the god item that turns the game into a cakewalk.

Hey uh...try not to be mean to me guys, but...I just started this game and I'm really stuck...

I just sprinkled the powder on the raccoon and got to the water swamp area shortly after that with the plant monsters shooting shit at you.

You can't damage these things. The powder doesn't work on them. There are no exits that aren't blocked off.

This is my first Zelda game. I don't really know what I'm doing.

fucking hate link to the past. my least favorite game in the series. the game is such a chore.

oddly enough i really like ocarina. i'd still say the original LoZ is the best of all though

>>913616
Do you even read the dialoges?
In the screen above the raccoon there was a chest with a key in it, after taking it I'm pretty sure the own tells you to go south or south-east.

>>913730
*the owl

>>912520
This.

>>913348
Well, I disagree on the characterisation part. You're spot-on with regards to the puzzle difficulty, though. The two games WERE designed to have different focusses - one on combat (Seasons) and one on puzzles (Ages), after all. And that is where, as you say, personal opinion comes in.

>>913386
>The final 2 dungeons are nothing but monotony due to the switch hitting and the excessive back tracking.
Not really excessive if you know what you're doing. In fact, basically no backtracking at all in Turtle Rock.

Eagle's Tower has it, but if you actually think about what you're doing, it's not hard to keep it to a minimum.

>>913616
You can only go to the swamp after beating the first dungeon. The dungeon is located near the beach. Use the key you got on the forest to open it.

The only thing that pisses me off about links awakening is the fact you can one shot the final boss. It's so anti-climatic

>>913652
The only issues with oot to me are the empty overworked and how badly the graphics have aged, I just can't replay it anymore. Especially when I compare it with wind waker and majora's mask

>>913819
To be fair, the entire battle until his final phase is pretty great. Also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyLNQsGTby8 dat music

The final phase itself (Dropping the music while it's at it)... Yeah, a disappointment. Whether boomerang or arrows, as it's really just a game of patience either way. But meh.

>>913826
MM has better graphics than OoT, but I don't see how the difference would be a dealbreaker.
WW's overworld is much worse than OoT's.

>>914368
I just feel the immersion factor of the games are better

I hated Majora's Mask. I hated the three day time limit because I felt it didn't allow me to explore at my leisure. I hated having to wait in places for shit to happen and I didn't give a shit about the NPCs or their "stories". I hated how you had to be a shitty Deku Scrub in the beginning, limiting your ability to explore and fight. The entire game felt like one big sidequest that I had to complete just to get back to Hyrule and play a good Zelda game. And before anyone brings up other Zelda games not taking place in Hyrule, I tried them and the only one that was any good IMO was Link's Awakening.

>>913826

I still like OoT's graphics. I honestly think they look quite nice especially in the dungeons. Ah well.

>>914583

I hated it too, but it had nothing to do with the time limit. It was fine, and to me there was no time-related pressure because they gave you a shitload of time.

I just thought the game was poorly made. The focus on mini-games and sidequests was lame, since I didn't think any of them were that good or interesting. I think people really overrate the sidequest aspect, most of them are dull as fuck. Even the Anju/Kafei quest is mostly just waiting around. And the dungeons are pretty meh, even Stone Tower isn't that good.

>"the best" Zelda
There is no such thing, get over it.

>>910351
Link's Awakening will always have a good place in my mind, maybe because it was the first game I played beside the first two and the new features blew me away.

I really think Nintendo uses the mobile games as a test bed for their major titles, LA introduced many of the real staples of Zelda.

Multiple songs, a large diverse cast, some interesting enemies, a plot that was unique from the series, hell even the nightmares had a hint of being more than mindless beasts.

>>911982
There were owl statues in LA but they were far more cryptic.

>>914704
The ending game me feels.

I like LttP better because of its more open world. LA, while having a good overworld, is completely linear and I never found a decent reason to go back to older areas. LttP's world is faster and less labyrinthian, and I'd constantly return to places to find new shit, especially once the dark world mechanic added a new layer to it. The items you found in LttP were also much better rewards, since the game practically had three times the inventory LA had.

You're right about the story and NPCs, even though neither game does those aspects particularly well, and the dungeons were pretty equal in both games. I do wish LttP had original music for each dungeon, but at the same time I found the dungeons themselves to have more variety in theme and gimmicks, so it's a fair trade-off.

I just can't see LA as anything other than a smaller, more linear LttP.

>>914583
>>914624
Majora's Mask was originally made as an N64DD expansion disk to Ocarina of Time, and it shows. Personally I'm very fond of it, much like every Zelda game before it, but I can see why some people dislike it.

The only thing that pisses me off is when people start recommending it for someone's first Zelda game. Majora's Mask is made with Ocarina of Time veterans in mind. It's not even the fact that the difficulty is higher (the swarms of enemies and minibosses are tougher, but nothing a newcomer can't handle), it's deliberately made confusing as fuck right from the get go. If you're used to this "find objectives on your own" play style from the sidequests of previous Zelda games, it's great, but if you don't there's really no way to ease into it.

I'd rather not have this game leaving a bad taste in their mouths when it doesn't properly represent the design of most of the other games. I'd rather they enjoy it to their fullest by having at least some previous experience.