/vr/ - Retro Games

I grew up on a Dreamcast
inb4 underage b&
my parents were heretics about vidya.
I got the dreamcast in 2005... yeah that's the same year the xbox 360 came out.
It was my first vidya system.
I was 13.

Fine image, except Vectorman and Toejam & Earl are not SEGA IPs

The only people I ever knew growing up who had Master Systems were very troubled or developmentally disabled children. I can no longer think about the Master System without remembering dank, tar-stained living rooms and basements with drunk, angry parents stomping about and underweight, flea-bitten pets shivering in the corners.

Genesis is okay, though.

I feel the same way, it's very disheartening seeing those people being completely dismissive and just writing SEGA off as some sort of chinese bootleg company not worth their time. Seeing those pre-chewed opinions "SEGA CD and SEGA Saturn had no games!" is the worst of it all, you really can tell these people know nothing of video games outside their little personal bubble.

My experience with SEGA... When I was still in grade school, I had an Atari 2600. My neighbors down the street had a SEGA Master System and Double Dragon. I was in love with it. Co-op beatemup action. Then they got a Genesis. Seeing Ghouls and Ghosts was mind-blowing. I didn't get my own Genesis until after I had a Super NES, but I never let the console war faggotry sway me. I loved SEGA games, and I loved Nintendo games. Each system was just a means to access their respective libraries.

>>908018
I grew up with Sega, and went to love them. But I also always loved Nintendo.

I'm totally unable to unterstand why people are so dominated by bullshitty marketing. And console wars is the bullshittiest of them all.

>>908154
They were Genesis exclusive brah.

No there isn't, the closest you will get is Mark from Classic Game Room.

>>908018
I noticed this as well. I went from NES to the Genesis so I had a little of both.

Good. I want everyone to shit on Sega because it will keep interest away from their games and leave the prices low.

>>908154
To be fair, Saki from Sin & Punishment would similarly not be a Nintendo IP in that sense. The game was made by Treasure, like Gunstar Heroes and Alien Soldier.

ToeJam & Earl were actually thrown into the concepts for the SEGA mascot at the time of Sonic's creation, so they're very linked to SEGA's branches.

As for Vectorman, it looks like he's under SEGA ownership now that he made an appearance in HOTD Overkill.

I also made OP's image. Here's a slight update.

>>908734
Meant to put this there also.

Joe on gamesack

As someone who grew up with SNES and later N64 (jumped back to used NES sometime in the N64 era), it really bums me out.

Mark from Classic Gameroom is the one that actually really turned me on to Sega, with Dreamcast and Genesis now being 2 of my 3 favorite consoles.

I think part of the probably could be the age difference, a lot of the people that had Genesis's back in the day were probably teens and even young 20 somethings, and I think a lot of those types are now pretty busy with actual careers and families, where as Nintendo had been better at targeting mothers like my own.

>>908018

I'm not a very well known guy on YouTube, but I grew up with the Sega Genesis. I have covered some Genesis games in the past on my YouTube series. What I never see is really good videos talking about Game Gear games.

I begged my parents to buy a Sega Master System for Christmas in 1990.

I could have gotten a Mega Drive, but went with the Master System because I saw the Master System had a Tom & Jerry game in a Mean Machines magazine.

I was promptly mocked by my 19 year old uncle who helped set the system up saying the "graphics look dated". However, i had no regrets. The Master System II looked cool - like something from the future - and with Alex Kidd in Miracle World built into the system, I was immediately hooked.

A few years later i got a Mega Drive for my birthday bundled with Aladdin. Good memories. I was swayed over by the SNES thanks to Donkey Kong Country though and years later Donkey Kong Country Returns would be the reason I buy a Wii.

I wanted a Saturn, but by this time I had moved onto PC gaming and I couldn't justify my parents buying me a Saturn when they've spent a few grand on a family computer.

My younger brother got a Dreamcast though a few years later and it was awesome to play Sonic Adventure. My brother loved Power Stone. We went to our local K-Mart to buy more Dreamcast games but were told by the clerk that weren't stocking any because "they wanted to make room for PS2 games". While Nintenbros might like to diss the Sega, I can't say a bad thing about Nintendo. But Sony? Fuck those guys.

Genesisbro here, I loved my Genesis (and later Saturn) to damn death even though I admit the SNES and PS1 had some good games.

The N64 really didn't have that many though. Ugh.

>>908018
Even though I mainly play on Nintendo consoles, I still like Sega.
Sonic 2, Comix Zone and Shining Force were what I played a whole lot on that Sega Genesis games collection for PC, the rest on that CD were Super Hang-On, Flicky and Vectorman 2, but I didn't care about them as much as Sonic 2, Comix Zone and Shining Force.
And after I had been introduced Kega Fusion sometime in 2006 or so, I tried out more Sega gems that I missed such as Phantasy Star 4 and Pulseman.
And I liked them. Hell, I even liked the Streets of Rage trilogy. Especially SoR2 for that delicious Yuzo Koshiro music
And that's my story on how I met Sega.
Well, earlier than me playing on that Sega Genesis games CD-Rom on PC, I had a first taste of Sonic 2 at someone's house.

I'm a Nintendo fan through and through, never grew up with a SEGA console and the only SEGA games I've played are the ones on that Genesis collection for the PS2.

Sonic just bores me. I prefer the original Bubsy if I'm going to play a fast-paced game.

>tfw you want to like the mega drive but every time you try to play any games you just get bored and quit

>>908792
The retailers were conspiring against the dreamcast? Is this the real reason it failed?

I love both consoles but I'd like to see the myth of SNES hardware superiority disspelled. Yes, SNES could very easily do fancy effects (which however have been proven possible on the Mega Drive as well). Yes, SNES had a larger colour palette. Yes, SNES had a more advanced sound chip (though Mega Drive games could sound really badass with the sound hardware they got).

However, there's good hardware reason the Mega Drive got most of the good shoot'em ups and arcade to console shoot'em up ports between them. Incredible speed, even with lots of objects on screen, even if we add the level of incredible effects the SNES was better known for.

The Mega Drive was a more powerful machine than given credit for.

>>908885
Maybe you are playing the wrong games.

Shouldn't be possible to get bored while playing the best Contra or Shinobi III.

>>908909
It really depends on the game. SSF2 just sucked on Mega Drive in comparison to the SNES. But overall, I prefer the look on the genesis games. It was much grittier.

>>908909
>Yes, SNES had a more advanced sound chip (though Mega Drive games could sound really badass with the sound hardware they got).
The mega drive had a fucking FM synthesis chip in addition to a bleeps and bloops chip (that was slower than the SNES's, granted).

It's pretty arguable.

>>908909
The SNES did not have more advanced sound. I don't know who told you that, but they're wrong.

I was a Sega kid, and I agree with OP about Youtube gaming channels preferring Nintendo. I can understand why people love SNES and NES. I didn't have em growing up, but thru playing them at friends' houses and thru emulation I've come to love them as well. I think ppl only love N64 because it was their only system growing up, though. The whole tiny library is pretty shitty in my opinion, with overall ugly graphics, awkward controls, and aside from Zelda, Mischief Makers and Harvest Moon, uninspired gameplay. Meanwhile the Saturn, one of my favorite systems ever, gets constantly shit on despite a library featuring beautiful games with intuitive and tight controls.

>>908934
>em
>thru
>thru
>ppl

>>908930
SSF2 R--crackle-yu-crackle-win-cracke-s

>>908934

>Awkward controls

I guess you held your controller like pic related?

>>908018
I grew up with NES and my parents bought me a SNES in 1992. My brother and I have our birthdays 10 days apart, and sometime in 1992 my dad bought me a Sega CD after begging for a Sega Genesis. We realized the Sega CD needed a Genesis so my brother was given that for his birthday 10 days later. Bro and I had lots of fun playing it for sure, more so than the SNES. When I asked my dad why he bought the Sega CD first, my dad, being not knowledgeable in technology, thought the higher priced model was the best option, he figured it was like buying a car lol. While I do love Nintendo, I vastly prefer old Sega. I don't understand how YouTubers shit on Sega and ignore it other than Sonic. Honestly, makes me a little angry, since the Sega fanboy in me just wants to call out their bullshit. Both SNES and Genesis had amazing and great games, and even some shit games, but to completely gloss over Sega and praise "muh Nintendo" is so stupid. I kind of prefer nostalgia for Sega stuff and appreciate them being the underdog then and now of course, I prefer rooting for that side of the team. On another note, later on I found a Power Base converter and started buying Master System games, so I can appreciate the SMS as well. I don't have a huge SMS library though. I skipped the Saturn but bought a Dreamcast at launch and eventually a year or so later bought a Sega Saturn. In the last year I've been building my library of Saturn up and been loving it. Sorry for this rambling piece, it's early lol.

>>908954
Honestly the N64 is pretty comfortable when held correctly. It's a lot more comfortable than some of the retro gaming pads out there like NES or Genesis.

>>908954
who was that retarded it to hold it like that? I distinctly remember going to Target in 1996 and trying Super Mario 64 and holding the controller right for the first time and these older kids/teens around me were flipping out because I held it correctly, apparently nobody knew how to, wtf?!

>>908969
>It's a lot more comfortable than some of the retro gaming pads out there like NES or Genesis.

Funny how you say that when immediately before you said the N64 controller was comfortable when held correctly.

The same applies to the NES and Genesis controllers. Don't give your NES controllers a death grip and they're just fine. I don't like the original Genesis controller (I much prefer the 6-button redesign) but I'm sure that people with bigger hands prefer the 3-button controller.

>>908954
>>908972
I did/do still hold the N64 controller like that. problem?

>>909008

No, it's just that you're holding it wrong.

>>909013
so? I still kicked everyone's ass at SSB.

>>908930
It is more "advanced" in a certain sense. I'm pretty sure the sound processing chip, DSP, and 64K of RAM were a pricier option than Sega's off-the-shelf Yamaha FM chip. The SNES's sample-based audio is also capable of a wider variety of sounds than FM synthesis, and you don't have to be a synth wizard in order to use it.

However, SNES sound isn't better across the board because FM synthesis still has certain advantages, especially when most SNES games couldn't afford to use much cartridge space for sound. Genesis music had high sample rates for all the FM sounds (unlike the muffled sound so many SNES games had) and could do long, slowly-evolving sounds that the SNES would never have the space to store. Like any synthesizer, you can also produce endless variations on any sound that you can come up with, which is great for more sophisticated instruments that don't rely on just one sample.

Overall the SNES audio hardware was the higher-end option that gave developers an easier time, but it really isn't "better" in an absolute sense. It really depends on the game, and whether the developers made good use of what either console had to offer.

I didn't get a game system until Playstation, but years later I got hooked on retro gaming, so I have an unbiased opinion from the console wars of the early 90s. I can say that I enjoy both Nintendo and Sega equally as much.

>>908018

If you want someone who loves Sega, you should check out AdamKoralik. He makes fuck loads of Dreamcast vids, as well as some general Sega vids.

>>908737
When you mention it I do remember him ripping on the SNES often. He is a huge Sega fan.

I was fortunate to have both an NES and Genesis as a kid, but I found myself playing Genesis more frequently. Mostly because I liked the way its music sounded.

>dat Kid Chameleon soundtrack

I grew up on Genesis. My little brother got one for his birthday, but I'm the one who ended up playing it the longest. We only had two games (Sonic 2 and Shining Force II) but we were lucky enough to have a friend who also had Genesis so our library was effectively expanded..

>>908018
I've noticed how a lot of the posters on /vr/ and whatnot had Nintendo systems growing up like the NES and SNES. They tend to shit on/not appreciate the games on any other system, probably because it's not "muh Nintendo." Now, I don't have anything against these people, but I want to know if there's any of these posters who are on the other side of the spectrum and grew up with non-Nintendo systems.

>>909025
This! Someone else who fucking gets it! It's all in how it's used.
Sure, you'll never reasonably get Chrono Trigger's "Secret of the Forest" out of a YM2612, but you will also never reasonably get Lightening Force's "Desert Hell", or Sonic and Knuckles' "Sky Sanctuary" out of the SNES chip.

As far as cross-platform games go, some versions sound better than others; it's all in whether the sound designer knew what they were doing with the hardware.
For instance, the SNES version of DOOM's music kicks the shit out of the 32X version, even if the 32X version is technically superior in all other aspects. Conversely, the music in Thunder Force III for the Genesis is superior to Thunder Spirits- the SNES port of the game. Going even deeper, you have games like the Earthworm Jim games, which I find to be a mixed bag- with some songs sounding better one one system than the other and vice versa.

Sampling is quick, easy, and ideal for capturing realistic instrument sounds- as well as most any other sound you can think of, memory permitting. Of course, outside of the sampling there was not much control for further sculpting of sounds, so many of the more dynamic-sounding SNES instruments relied on large samples to capture the full sound of the instrument, instead of just looping single-cycle waveforms.
FM synthesis is a powerful sound sculpting tool capable of making harmonically complex, evolving sounds without taking up extra memory space- and can even do some realistic instrumental sounds too when in the right hands.
At their worst, either one can sound bad. The SNES had its share of canned bizzaro-organ elevator music, while the Genesis had its share of metallic "BLAAAAARRRRGHSSSSHHHZZZZZSHING"
Which is better? It's all a matter of preference... and the skill of the sound designer/composer.

pic semi-related: it's a softsynth based on the Genesis hardware. All these controls are for one FM synth channel. (The Genesis had six FM channels total)

>>908930
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTSW4M28XQg

required listening for any thread that mentions SNES sound

>>910924
Can you give me any advice on how to get VOPM working on my computer? I have a Mac and don't want to shell out cash for any commercial products, so I'm stuck with freeware as far as VST hosts are concerned. I remember trying it once and I couldn't get it to work.

I've been doing 4-OP FM in FM8 (which a friend gave to me years ago) but it doesn't sound exactly the same even if you stick to the Yamaha chip's general limitations. Also the more limited envelope and ratio controls are more convenient at times. I used to mess with VGM Maker a lot when I had access to Windows machines and it was fun as hell.

Also to the Genesis music noobs in this thread, check out Devilish. That was one of the games I was thinking of when I wrote my earlier post (game is mediocre though the soundtrack is great).

>>908018
Let's not lie to ourselves, Master System was almost complete shit. Sega Genesis on the other hand, was fucking amazing, and it feels sad when a lot of well known people on YouTube dismiss it almost completely.

>>911038
What's wrong with the Master system?

>>911140
No Mario and no Zelda.

>>911140
You must be from the US. You guys kind of got shit on as far as releases go. Still, it had Global Defense, Phantasy Star 1, Kenseiden, Shinobi, and the arguably superior version of Double Dragon.

>>911553
Was supposed to be tagging
>>911038

>>911212
hue hue hue
>>>/out/

>>911026
Couldn't help you, bro. I actually use a Mac, too- I just grabbed that screenshot from teh Google.
I run VOPM in Logic (which has no native VST support) by using the freeware program VSTAU Manager. I used to use Tracktion, and never had a problem using VOPM natively in that either.
Chances are your VST host program just sucks. Just shell out for a decent DAW program.

>>911038
>Master System was almost complete shit
AND THEN THERE'S THIS ASSHOLE

>>911790
Well to be fair SMS was pretty shitty in America, Europe got more games for it.

>>908954

jesus fuck that is horrifying

didn't these idiots ever realize you never use the d pad and the analog at the same time?

>>910924
How would one get started with all that business?
I own a few analog synths, so i know my way around wave forms and filters, but nothing FM.

My first system was the genesis. I was a die hard sega fanboy back in the day. I didn't fully appreciate nintendo games until the late 90's with games like mario 64 and pokemon. if any nintendo games can convert a hardcore sega fanboy, its those. You're right though. Sega's pretty under appreciated compared to nintendo on this board. I think part of the reason is due to the snes having more jrpg's than the genesis. personally, i'd take the phantasy star games over final fantasy any day. i guess the reason as to why people seldom talk of them, is simply because final fantasy is still going on. leading to an ever increasing amount of fans. phantasy star turned into an mmo, and it tends to get overlooked much of the time. overall, both companies have more than their fair share of classics.

That one guy from game sack is a big sega fan.
The show is informative but... really shit.

>>911818
I KNOW RIGHT.
Fuck it pisses me off when douchebags are all HUR RDURR HOW DO YUO HOLD IT YUO NEED TWEE HANDS LUL
Fucking morons no game requires you to use the d-pad/L button as well as the analog/Z. It's always one or the other, and in both ways it's comfortable to hold.

>>908030
You were born in 92?
So what? I was too.
But I started off at 3-4 playing a Genesis

>>910935
That's a cool looking Klansman

Why do these threads always end up in soundchip battles?
They both sounded amazing for the games that were designed to utilize the chip in mind (exclusives)

Though I really do prefer that FM sound chip. shit sounded funky all the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBi00o2nWMs

There's a pretty good unofficial VOPM guide in English on the interwebs. Just search "unofficial vopm" and you should find it. It assumes you know a few things about FM synthesis to begin with, but that's what I'm getting into here.
In FM synthesis, you have a given number of "operators" which are in this case all sinewave oscillators that are designated as Carriers or Modulators. They are joined together through s selectable algorith, but more on that later.
The Carrier oscillators generate sound; playing the output of an unmodulated carrier simply sounds like a sine wave whose envelope, pitch, and total volume is determined by the parameters you set for that operator.
The Modulator is also an oscillator and with the same controls, but its purpose is to change the instantaneous frequency of the Carrier wave. At sub-audible frequencies, this would simply give you a rising/falling pitch effect- like a siren. However, when the Modulator is in the audible frequency range (and it generally is) it forms sidebands in the carrier's frequency spectrum. The more intense the frequency modulation, the more numerous and powerful the sidebands. Imagine you have a Carrier with instant attack/release, and infinite sustain, and a modulator with a slow attack and gradual decay. As the Mod level gets higher, it will introduce more harmonics and overtones into the output, and will gradually revert back down to a sine wave as it decays. The end result would sound similar to an analog filter sweep.
Different timbres can be achieved by running the mod and carrier frequencies at different ratios of each other. Bell-like, or even dissonant sounds can be achieved by running both operators at disharmonic intervals.
The Algorithm is the part that controls how the operators are routed. The VOPM and Genesis hardware has a total of 8, numbered 0–7. The part of the algorithm diagram labeled "FL" indicates a variable feedback loop, which allows the operator to modulate itself.

>>913414
Different anon here. I'd like to get into a little more depth about sidebands, since I think it's a useful thing to know about.

Unlike your normal harmonics or overtones, sidebands don't necessarily fall along the harmonic spectrum of the carrier. What happens instead is that the carrier's frequency acts as a starting point for the sidebands to emerge on either side of. The modulator's frequency determines the spacing of the sidebands. In a patch where the carrier had a ratio of 7 and the modulator had a ratio of 2, the first sidebands would be at 5 and 9 in the harmonic series, while the next would show up at 3 and 11, etc. Sidebands that end up in the negative frequency range still contribute to the sound, they just have inverted phase -- which isn't really worth thinking about, so in practice you can think of them as equivalent to positive-numbered sidebands; just take the absolute value of the number.

>>913496 cont.

If your carrier and modulator have a ratio of 1:1, all the sidebands will perfectly line up with the full harmonic series, and it's easy to fiddle with the parameters until you have a near-perfect sawtooth wave. If the modulator has a ratio of 2:1 with the carrier, you end up with only the odd harmonics in your sidebands, which is like a square wave. You can try whatever crazy ratios you want, but remember that the carrier frequency isn't the fundamental; rather, the fundamental is the greatest common factor of all the operators involved. This is usually 1, unless you're intentionally using all even numbers to shift things up an octave. It's worth noting that with something like a carrier of 3 with a modulator of 1, the perceived fundamental will shift from 1 to 3 if you decay the modulator to zero while sustaining the carrier. It's a good exercise to try all these things out to develop a sense of how ratios "really" work, which makes you better-equipped to make patches that sound how you want.

Anyway, the real fun begins when you have chains of more than two operators, but at that point you use intuition more than math. I find that the real magic is in the envelopes and not the ratios anyway, but ratios are still useful to know.

>>908229
To be fair, Mark is a pretty big guy on youtube and loves the shit out of the genesis

The only people I know who started out with Sega and are actually worth watching are RunButton. Ironically they are in the middle of their LP for the entire Mario series right now, but they also did an incredible, 190-part Sonic series LP.

http://youtu.be/Btdk4q68OiQ

People that had a Genesis went on to become productive members of society, or at the very least grew out of childrens' games and got actual jobs.

Nintenyearolds are stuck in 'muh nostalgia' and refuse to adapt to the world around them, sticking their fingers in their ears and making 'MyTube' videos.

Continue play a lot of Genesis stuff.
I'm glad Sega stuff hasn't had as bad a price hike in the past 3-4 years as Nintendo.

>>913919
You only "grow out of games" if the games you've played aren't very good.

>>913945
Ladies and gentlemen, case in point.

>>913919
>Nintenyearolds

>>>/v/

>>913919
In truth, few things are more childish than pulling the I DON'T LIKE X, BECAUSE I AM A MATURE ADULT card.

>>913919
So...
You don't play or care about games, then? What are you doing here exactly, sir productive-member-of-society?

Clearly you don't know about THE BUS OP.

Bump for the synth discussion ITT