/vr/ - Retro Games

>>8949240
It looks like a Finnish flag.

>>8949240

>>8949240
It was great, we should've listened to them, maybe the modern problems would've been avoided

In reality, no one gave a shit and the whole thing was vastly overblown by the media.

>>8949240
"Pokemon is actually short for devil's pocket monsters"

>>8949240
I knew kids whose parents were really strict about the kind of games they could play. Usually we’re really weird or little shitheads that acted out at every opportunity. Anyway they’d come over to my house sometimes to play shit besides Glover and Spyro.

>>8949240
Oh boy, if you think Christians were hated then.

>>8949265
Go back.

>>8949240
It was great. I grew up in a very religious town and had a very comprehensive religious education. And I had already been through all that shit with D&D. I was easily able to btfo any pearl clutcher with chapter and verse.

>>8949240
I don't think my area was hugely religious, but I don't remember anyone really caring about video games themselves, at least for religious reasons. Video game "culture" never caught on until the PS2 era here, and even then most stuff that was played were still sports games until Halo started to grab a few people.

By that time, whatever sort of scare was going on was long over, the only time I remember anyone bringing up the subject was a father whose computer I was working on mentioning he was worried his son would waste too much time playing video games if he didn't limit him. I don't think I ever heard anyone complain about video games being the devil or anything like that.

>>8949265
The 90s isn't modern? Ok what is then? Are you 14 or something?

>>8949683
Not that anon but you're trying way too hard kiddo

>>8949240
Pokemon, Digimon, Tamagochis and Harry Potter books were banned in my catholic school, saying they promoted evolution and magic use. My parents were pretty liberal so they just told me to keep that stuff at home.
>>8949265
my gay, you have to go back.

>>8949240
They should've focused their efforts on pornography, that shit is poison and morally degrading western society more than a video game ever did.

>>8949265
Why is it that people think that any era that came before the 2010s was some sort of golden era where nothing bad happened or some shit like that?

You guys still have mass shootings, diseases, and wars.

The only difference is that people can record that shit and post it online now.

I'd bet that if YouTube or some other streaming platform was made during the mid 90s, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold would've uploaded the basement tapes online before shooting up Columbine.

Captcha: N0N00

>>8949863
Why would Christians attack their sources of pleasure?

>>8949873
The only reason that Jews are in pornography is that we think that Christ sucks. Catholicism sucks.

-Al Goldstein

My school wasn't religious but banned all video games, trading cards, board games etc because schools are miserable conformist places that don't want any outside influences to undermine the authority of the school.

Outside of school most people didn't care, although I remember one of my friend's dads going on a boomer rant about how kids in his day used to play outside and it's unnatural to stay inside playing video games.

>>8949863
God, I love heroes 3.
Praise be.

>>8949805
>you're trying way too hard kiddo
I can't stress this enough; you need to go back.

>>8949863
>that shit is poison and morally degrading western society more than a video game ever did.
rofl what a fucking beta

>>8949346
No one's family actually thought this (yes, I was there). The crazies were just made prominent in soijourno media.

>>8949889
Jews and Catholics always live in the same communities and get married to each other. For some reason.

>>8949240
i still played pokemon
dont believe everything you see on tv
people are absolute retards, and are literally controlled by propaganda on television

my family talked about evolution & witchcraft spells etc

fantasy vs reality
kids are not dumbasses, you just need to take time and explain things (right vs wrong, appropriate vs inappropriate, etc)

i could always listen to whatever albums i wanted but the lyrical content was addressed by my parents
>you know its not ok to hit women though, right anon?
etc


tv is fake and gay
im glad i didnt have cable as a poorfag
it clearly fucked up most americans

>>8949240
>1997 USA
>go to Christian school
>kids bring Sega and N64 to school
>get to play it on the TV if they get their work done early
i never saw a better incentive to actually make kids do their work

>>8949869
you think the medical industrial complex didnt exist then?
you think the military industrial complex didnt exist then?

you think things are better now? kek


tards have been screeching at republicans because the tv told them to since before any of us were born

>>8950009
>KJV
So you love preserved truth or something? Also, your digits deserve an honorary chek.

>>8950013
this

it was the first time i ever played life force
i went to a private christian schoool

i would argue that a young 1st/2nd grader in an afterschool program will do much better if properly motivated +not to mention the required socialization skills (taking turns, sharing games/stories, etc)

>>8949869
>mass shootings
Gun-free zones are fun in vidya, and horrifying in reality.

>>8950019
my point is a knee-jerk reaction to a young preteen or teenager will blow up in your face

>dont hang out with those types
>you are forbidden to date them
etc
a tard child will always do the opposite of what you say and choose their interests in secret.

the only truth i care about is the words of jesus christ

>>8950029
the only (((mass shootings))) that are happening are in warzones

people are murdered every day
i dont think the kids or their families appreciate being used as propaganda pieces / gungrabber agenda
what if their views are the opposite?!
sickening

>>8949240
it starts with having a legitimate concern
then it snowballs into a media feeding frenzy for money or law-making


the guys making laws get off on it because they "wrote" them
power fucks people up

it turns them into what they claim to protect their constituents against
something not human

>>8949981
Not if they're religious. Religious people of any religion only get married to people of their religion.

>>8949974
>I can't stress this enough; i'm trying way too hard

>attack degenerate undead with life-sized Jesus on a cross

good times

>>8949265
Based

>>8949240
not sure but I grew up without a console because I had a very controlling religious mom who thought video games were bad. Even asking her as a near 30 year old she never gave me a reason.
It really took a toll on my adolescence. I became obsessed with games. I was allowed to play at my friends' house and therefore that's all I would want to do. I still feel guilty for being such a shitty psycho games-obsessed kid when I should have been out biking or playing outside with my friends etc.

>>8949240
Not Christian nor American, but it was similar here in the Arab world.
>"Pokemon is a Jewish conspiracy to turn Muslim kids into Jews"
>People would hand out flyers in schools telling kids what Pokemon names "really" mean
>"Pikachu means be a Jew"
>"Pokemon means I am a Jew"
>"Bulbasaur means I wish to become a Jew"
>"Magmar means Allah is stupid"

>Yu-Gi-Oh! almost got a similar treatment
>local Imam did a Friday sermon where he read YGO cards out loud
>showed how they talk about "sacrifices" and such
>dad made us give up our cards and he burned them

>>8949805
>kiddo
14 confirmed

>>8951434
nothing wrong with liking vidya anon

when it starts ruining your life, causing irresponsible decisions etc

then feel free to worry


>>8951120
i forgot, nearly ALL of the castlevania games have christian imagery
kinda cool

I had a friend who's parents were very religious. There was never any panic about "the devil" in entertainment. They let him listen to Slipknot and everything. People who didn't grow up around religious people have a very strange perception of how they are, like they're another species, who aren't as fundamentally lazy and disengaged as everyone else is, when it all comes down to it.
Or maybe Americans are just crazy. I don't know.

>>8951496
No I mean I play here and there these days but as a kid that's ALL I would want to do at anyone else's house. Very much to a compulsive degree.

>equating radical American evangelical mammon worship with Christianity
Please stop

>>8951502
Book burning.

>>8951525
I never saw a book burning in my life. Where do these things even happen?

>>8951508
you were a child
cut yourself a fucking break anon

>>8949240
I'm 22 and as a teen, my friend's mom wouldn't let him play pokemon because she thought it was related to the devil or something (I guess the evolution mechanic of pokemon didn't help either).

>>8949948
If you want kids to play outside, you also have to let them do something they find engaging outside, which usually doesn't mean playing nicely on your lawn. If you let them dig a giant hole, or smash something with a hammer, that'll usually get them going.

>>8949240
Jesus Christ is GOD
https://streamable.com/o28y1

>>8951532
I never saw a murder, so these things don't happen.

>>8949240
>a time where most Christians often hated or feared video games, ESPECIALLY during the whole "Pokémon is Satanic" phase of the 90s
That never happened. It's a completely over-exaggerated lie blown up by the media because of a lack of things to keep the average person fearful of back then. That whole fake narrative stopped being pushed immediately after 9/11.

>>8951665
You can't just say "book burnings" as if that's some kind of integral part of the Christian lifestyle.
>oh, you grew up around black people? Well, rape...

>>8951870
if you don't remember the fundamentalists shrieking about "evolution" in pokemon then you must not have been there

>>8949869
Literal braindead NPC.

>>8951883
No one said it was "integral", dumbass.
The argument is that it's common enough for religious people to be batshit, whether it's book burning, thinking videogames lead to devil worship, or anything of that nature.
The fact that you don't leave your mommy's house enough to see it happen isn't an argument.
Plenty of people here have already talked about what they had to deal with from these religious morons. It still happened even if you weren't personally there.

Literally played my first PlayStation games at a church after Sunday school. So no idea where you got that info. I grew up in South Georgia in the Bible Belt during the 90s and then worked at GameStop during the whole decade of the 00’s and it was mostly white and black Christian males coming in. That’s personal experience in a town of over 100k for almost a decade of working at a gaming store. Once GameStop took over EB I worked at all 4 locations in the town at one point or another.

>>8952007
>So no idea where you got that info
From living it.

I lived in probably the most religious area in the entire country. There were churches everywhere and my family was religious. This was NEVER an issue for me. Mortal Kombat 2 was my favorite game as a kid. I actually remember our pastor visiting us while I was playing the ultra demonic Altered Beast. No one thought anything of it. I have never heard of Pokemon being satanic. Our school banned the cards only because they were getting lost or stolen. People were actually worried that video games would make their kids lazy and not want to play outside enough. I feel like people outside the Bible Belt have a warped view of what actually goes on here.

>>8951998
>Source: My ass

>>8952221
>>8952260
>I have never heard of Pokemon being satanic
"It didn't happen to me, so it didn't happen to anyone"
Literal child logic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vgobmujze60
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gF1qn-KzbM

>>8952282
How many Christians in America do you think actually believed that Pokemon was satanic? I never met one in my entire life being constantly surrounded by them and going to church as a kid during the height of it. I really doubt it was even close to being widespread.

>>8952282
>I saw it on TV, so it MUST be everywhere!
Literal child logic

>>8952316
zzzzzzzzz reponse
>>8952186

>>8952314
All your responses are just variations on "I am sheltered"

>>8949240
It was politicians from both sides of the aisle freaking out over video games throughout the 90s. Some public access TV preachers aren't even a blip on the radar compared to the Congressional hearings in 93 and 94 and the reaction after Columbine.

>>8952353
>nyah nyah my anecdotal evidence is better than yooours

It's all sacrilegious posturing and anyone that ever cared is damned until they repent

Matthew 6:1 "Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven."

>>8951998
Every religious person I have met in my life has been ordinary, and boring. Usually nice people. I pretty much live next door to a church, so I've been around religious people.

>>8949869
>if mass public use of the internet existed in the 90s, it would be bad as today.
Yeah? No shit.

>>8952442
it would be like today except more people would be calling people faggots

>>8949948
>I remember one of my friend's dads going on a boomer rant about how kids in his day used to play outside and it's unnatural to stay inside playing video games.
He was right.

>>8949240
>>8951870
This guy is right.
>most Christians often hated or feared video games
What the fuck are you talking about? How deep in your ass did you have to get your hand to pull that out? Do you have a single satisfact to snack that up?
>>8951476
Religion can't end soon enough.
t. I hate the antichrist AND god.

>>8949240
As someone who grew up in the late 90s and early 2000s I never remember Christian hating or fearing games, basically everyone in my life was Christian or Catholic and when religion came up video games didn't. Mom and Dad never said video games were a waste, they knew they were just toys. I think the whole "christians hated games" thing comes from some weird early ytmnds and youtube videos. A lot of those were faked by goons at the time. I don't think this ever really happened or had any influence in real life.

>>8952186
Yeah, I actually worked at Gamestop and EB for almost the entire decade. So, in my overwhelming experience, most of my customers were Christians. Also every pokemon release was filled w kids from local churches. I went to private school on a discount because my parents were teachers, never once was pokemon banned. Fuck, I even ran Halo lan parties at a local church gym that I worked for prior to starting at Gamestop. LOL, video games were only viewed as harmful if you stopped reading and stopped going outside. Nothing to do with religion other than everything in moderation. Friday nights at St Mark were lit, mountain dew and debbie snacks in the giant ass kitchen, took all the old ass couches from the foyers, and had 20-30 people rotating the 16 slots all set up on a stage for plays. No idea where this even came from... Actually used that as a ministry so people wouldn't be out doing drugs or other degenerate shit.

Reminds me of a dumb analogy about religions.

>Judaism is Pokémon Green
>Christianity (Orthodoxy) is Pokémon Blue
>Catholicism is Pokémon Yellow
>Islam is a romhack of Pokémon Green

>>8951484
>no u
12 confirmed

>>8949240
>the whole "Pokémon is Satanic" phase of the 90s?

Literally a meme. No one thought this in the 90s. It was just the media trying a re run of the Dungeons and Dragons scare of the 80s.

Wasn't really a thing in my experience. Grew up with very religious parents, my dad had an Intellivision when I was born, and later we had an SNES and N64, my mom was obsessed with Donkey Kong Country and my dad would play DOOM until 3 in the morning.

In my experience, the real threat to video games has always been leftards like Hilary Clinton and Joe Lieberman who wanted to legislate personal choice, my parents always viewed video games like other media like movies or TV shows, there's some you want to watch/play, and some you don't.

>>8951476
Why would they think something from Japan, created by Japanese, would have anything to do with "Da JOOS!"? Why are extremist muslims so fucking retarded about their Jewish boogeyman?

>>8951476
This sounds like bullshit. You're not from the Arab world, larper.

>>8952575
Absence of religion inevitably leads to narcissism (lack of higher meaning to guide life leads to a deification of the self and its sensory experiences), and narcissism is simply an untrue way of looking at the world. I have never met an atheist who seemed spiritually satisfied with his life. Humans need religion like we need water. There is a reason why religion developed independently of each other in all cultures of all eras. Being religious doesn't mean you instantly turn into a mindless drone who denies evolution or whatever, it means you have some sort of meaningful connection with the 'All', of which everyone is part. Humans need this connection, and if it is lost humans become broken and neurotic, repressing the urge to find meaning.

To be honest, I pity atheists. They live in such a pale and bleak world and they're not even aware of it. They seem restless, trying to drink their woes away, constantly looking for ways to satisfy their desires that can never be fully satisfied. Nothing is more depressing than an atheistic funeral. Why not just dump the body in the sea if we're all just hecking atomerinos? They still find meaning in the religious burial rites, even though they're not aware of it. Historically, there has never been a type of human so absurd as the atheist.

>>8949265
/thread

>>8949240
Not 'Murrica, but Yurop, Central Europe to be exact. Nobody panicked over Pokemon, most outrage was over first person shooters actually. I remember seeing my dad watching some "le games are bad" documentary on TV and it almost always talked about shooters like Doom, Quake, Unreal or GTA games and how these turn people (and kids) into monsters who would kill people without remorse when they will grow up. Pokemon was seen as a mere innocent kid's game (especially because of the anime). My dad used to go bonkers whenever I played GTA2 or Unreal Tournament and often order me to play something more tame (like fucking Solitarie) or quit playing on my PC altogether. Boy, one time he went completely apeshit when he saw me pwning three bots in a row with a Ripper headshot in a UT deathmatch. And also I remember my mom banning me from playing games when I explained her the objective of a certain job for the Russian Mafia in GTA2.

>>8949240
My fave was the people saying Pokémon and Yugioh cards were satanic due to them having green smoke when you burned them even though it was due to the ink and type of paper used for the cards. Also anyone who believes a preacher who says he needs money for his church yet is in a small mansion and has a private jet is a moron and deserves to be ridiculed.

>>8949863
Demon on the cover. Do not buy.
>>8952314
The pastor of my church and principal of my Catholic school believed that Pokemon, Magic the Gathering and Yu-Gi-Oh were satanic. My friends and I used to get our cards taken from us and Pokemon games ripped out of our GBCs.
>hurr they're only two people
let me break it down so your smooth zoomer brain can actually understand. Priests and religious leaders are like the first influencers, and school principals are like discord admins. They tell you what you should/shouldn't be consooming and will ban any unwanted activity based on their own arbitrary rules.
>>8952405
we're literally talking about anecdotes here. Try to keep up.

>>8953367
b a s e d

>>8949978
ok coomer

>>8952358
Or your sheltering in your weird little mormon communes arent the norm

Religion is pretty terrible
The glorification of violence in all media is awful
The glorification of traditional pornography over realistic, humorous, or positive sexual interactions is also damaging to the way we understand one another as people.

In general the exploration of these things is good, and should be done, but it's when it all gets churned to the lowest common denominator and sold en mass it becomes a detriment to the health of society. But ultimately people are stupid, and they need these things to manage themselves, and society actually does need a lot of stupid people to handle basic tasks that keep society going.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't mind of thing.

So as with any uproar over these things, you just ride it out for a bit, and let it die down, and keep with the status quo. The machine keeps churning, and things never change.

>>8953367
You're acting like there are no narcissistic theists.
>To be honest, I pity atheists. They live in such a pale and bleak world and they're not even aware of it.

>>8949240
Video gaming was fine. For me, it was Dungeons and Dragons, and Magic: The Gathering are Satanic!

>>8953367
>inevitably leads to narcissism
>lack of higher meaning
Atheism gives you the freedom to determine or choose your own higher meaning; it doesn't negate your ability to have one. It just allows you do use the "fill in the blank" section on the paper, rather than forcing you to pick one of the 8 pre-existing multiple choice answers (Catholic, Buddhist, etc.). I don't have to toe the line on a worldview forced upon me by some old dude in a dress, rather, one informed by logic, philosophy, and observations of the actual world we live in.
>spiritually satisfied
I wouldn't even know how to answer a question about that; I negate the import or authenticity of the spiritual entirely. I'm sure I have equivalent experiences, I'm still human, but I wouldn't couch anything in metaphysical terminology. What I might consider to be a pleasant afternoon in nature you might qualify as a transcendant spiritual experience.
>why religion developed independently
Yeah, because people wanted to know why volcanos kept screwing them over and where their dad went when he died. It's just a way to cope and feel content with the incomprehensible vastness of the universe in the eras prior to widespread scientific understanding. It eventually grew into a way to conveniently package cultural morals into stories for oral transmission. It's obsolete now, even if clutching to it makes you feel secure emotionally.
>repressing the urge to find meaning
Maybe you wouldn't have meaning if someone didn't give you one through a book, but not everyone is like that. I'm very content with having been able to choose my own life.
>pale and bleak world
Because I'm surrounded by brainwashed hordes dragging our world toward oblivion. It's one of the most deep-rooted vestiges of the old world.
>religious burial rites
Says who? My family have non-religious remembrances for our deceased, and we just incinerate the corpse and spread the ashes. Done.

>>8953039
Because propaganda's useful.

>>8954350
Reddit tier post

>>8954350
This is such a textbook atheist answer, I cringe

>>8954410
>>8954426
Lots of people recognize that 2+2 equals 4, that doesn't make it wrong. It's a textbook response because that's all that needs to be said.

>>8954445
Look at him, he figured out all the mysteries of the world! I tip my hat to you, sir.

>>8954350
faggot. This board is a about video games. No one gives a fuck about your bullshit, your dead end genetic line or the fact that the future of the world is going to be catholic spics, mormons and muslims. please kill yourself genetically retard.

>>8954494
le /pol/ face

>>8954350

>>8949863
This
Only thing I would welcome a blanket ban of, I know it would be futile but still

>>8954445
>Lots of people recognize that 2+2 equals 4
No. All people do. Those who don't are subhuman.

>>8954757
Yeah, that's the same point I'm making.

>>8949863
Based. Literally nothing positive comes from it. Video games can be so much more.

>>8954334
in all fairness; the original magic the gathering cards had a LOT of satanic imagery/themes +realworld christian/muslim themes as well


WotC distanced themselves from these ideas and artstyles as the game got popular, now its a tranny-filled non-binary poc whatever the fuck, so in a way the people overreacting originally were kinda right lol

>>8954506
le boogeyman
you people are like hillary clinton trying to ban pepe

>>8954757
some people are subhuman
oy vey rayciss!!

>>8952412
this verse reminds me of the cringe videos people post showing them (((helping))) homeless people or strangers while fucking filming them


id rather have nothing than accept the help of a faggot youtuber using me for views

>>8954350
*tips fedora*
muhlady

>>8954350
Bro you're a cringey loser who sucks. Atheists are the worst. Always tryna debate and shit like little faggots. You cant disprove God, and until you can religions are valid belief systems. Get over it bro theres nothing you can do

>>8955159
i would argue that even if God were not to exist
religion overall has a more positive effect on the planet as a whole

if everyone became athiest in an alternate timeline the world would likely become unrecognizable and hideous

>>8954658
i almost feel bad for them

Oh boy it's another 100+ post thread of shit.

>>8955171
>enters thread of thing he doesnt like
>is surprised

>>8955165
>religion overall has a more positive effect on the planet as a whole
Religions cause wars. Removing them is a net positive.
The reason people are so willing to go to war and die is the belief that they're right and that in their death they will be rewarded with heaven.
How many people do you think would still be willing to die if they knew that there is nothing after this? That this is the only life they get? You think they'd waste it like this?

>>8955159
>belief in this unfalsifiable claim totally makes sense!
>now submit to me and let me dictate how you live

>>8955194
>Religions cause wars.
Yet the biggest and most catastrophic wars and genocides were created and pushed by atheistic states.

>>8949240
It was great, something the zoomers will never be able to experience. It was a golden age anon, the last of its kind. As >>8951870
pointed out any sort of gay controversy was completely astroturfed by the media for ratings. Believe or not but distrust of the media is not a new phenomenon.

>>8949265
This. Honestly if anything my parents should have been more strict than they were.

>>8953367
I have never met an atheist that was not a complete miserable failure, it would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic and sad.

>>8953367
>I have never met an atheist who seemed spiritually satisfied with his life
Kinda hard when there's no such thing as a spirit, dumbass.
>Humans need this connection, and if it is lost humans become broken and neurotic, repressing the urge to find meaning.
So either be a mindless moron who does not question unfalsifiable claims, or believe in a lie that dictates every aspect of how you live.
Anyone who is like this needs to hanged. Literally saying "stay stupid and give up your freedom". Life is worse because of you.
>They live in such a pale and bleak world and they're not even aware of it.
>"They don't live in a make-believe world, so sad"
>trying to drink their woes away
Stop projecting.
>Why not just dump the body in the sea if we're all just hecking atomerinos?
I'd donate it.
>Historically, there has never been a type of human so absurd as the atheist.
Here's one type: A dumbfuck who does not question anything, does not want to think for themselves, does not want to be free, wants others to not be free.

>>8951476
none of this shit ever happened you larping faggot

>>8955208
Yes, look at single wars and genocides instead of looking at the entire human history and the causes of wars in the aggregate. Makes you look better.

>>8955237
If you can read Arabic, here you go:
https://twitter.com/hyo_joestar/status/1015979247679229953
https://twitter.com/faisalal3amr/status/507628976110452736?lang=fr
https://twitter.com/Out_Our_Space/status/507641416583892992

In the last link, second row of the table as an example, it says "بوكيمون" on the right, and "أنا يهودي" on the left (what they think is the meaning). Put them through Google Translate. (This flyer is dated at the bottom to be from 1421 Hijri, around 2001 AD)

You seem too young to know what the world was like before the wide-spread use of the internet. In those days, there was no Google Translate. You either got a book to translate, or had one of these translation programs you bought and installed on your computer.
What's worse is that Pokemon names cannot be translated, because they're usually word-plays. So no one knew any better, and everyone believed these religious fucks.

The point is that you're too young to be on this website.

>a bloo bloo bloo muh wars
Moralfag "atheists" make me laugh. You think everyone will be completely obliterated at death, consciousness is created by the brain, no plan for the world, etc. yet you still cope with self-made meaning and morality. You can't accept the logical consequences of your beliefs, that is you and everyone else are flesh robots on le blue speck in nothingness that might as well never have existed in the first place as everything and the memory of everything will be extinguished when you close your eyes for the last time. Atheists are basically the protestants of protestants.

Did I actually click on /his/ or what

>>8955274
The gist of this post is that you're mad that religions don't have a monopoly on morality (not that most have any to begin with), and that makes them look unnecessary.

Here's a thought: Take 10 religions, each saying other religions are wrong. Necessarily, you cannot have 2 that are right, it is impossible. That means at least 9, if not all 10, are wrong.
You know what that means? There's 9 religions out of these that are totally made up. Someone or some group at some point in history knowingly sat down and made all this shit up. Someone who did not believe in anything, like an atheist, made up a moral code and sold it to others. And you're sitting here praising him and shitting on moral atheists. But the thing you stupidly do not realize is that these two are the same thing: Someone who does not believe in anything who determined morality for himself. The only difference is the first one lied, and the other is being upfront. But you like the liar.