/vr/ - Retro Games

Sonic 3 & Knuckles is the peak of 2D video games and Sonic Adventure 2 Battle is the peak of 3D video games.

>>8927839
>sa2 battle
you mean, no vga?

>>8927816
Idk I'm told them Romans could roam

The Roman Empire took centuries to collapse after its peak, much like Sonic

>>8927949
Sonic Adventure was basically the Antonine Plague of the Sonic franchise.

>>8927839
>That shitty NullDC black square around the flash.

>>8927816
All Sonic games are great

>>8927816
it was in a unique situation where it was much harder to bring into 3d than other franchises

>>8929303
Especially 3D blast

>>8930345

>>8930243
Sonic adventure through to the first half of sonic heroes were good. It's just that sega ran out of money and couldn't make good games any more after that.

After finally playing through the originals I’m starting to agree. I think a lot of people approach these games wrong like I initially did, then get frustrated when they die or the controls “feel clunky”, when in reality they are all closer to something like a side scrolling racing game where you have to memorize the tracks (ie: levels) and know when to slow down and commit to your jumps to get the most fun out of them.

At this point Sonic is right up there with Mega Man as my favorite series and it might be the thing I enjoy the most this year. Shame that the series has hit a bit of a rut due to some bad management, and even more of a shame that poor Yuji Naka’s career is dead because everyone wanted to get on the hate train for Balan.

>>8927839
>tfw there has been no rereleases of the adventure games in years

>>8932232
2D games are like that. The Adventure series punishes you for slowing down / turning around by glitching the fuck out, causing you to fall through the ground all of a sudden etc. - as long as you stay "on rails" and keep pushing the control stick forward, it's mostly ok, but legit try taking your time and all of a sudden it's a glitch galore.

Out of curiosity, was Forces as bad as people say it was? I’ve been watching a lot of videos on it and a lot of people seemed to be nitpicking things that really didn’t matter in the grand scheme of a “good” sonic game. One complaint I saw was a guy complaining that you could just “press x to win”, but when he was doing that he was still getting hit by things and being slowed down.

>>8933041
I've played it for a bit and found it boring. Not a bad game, just... Really fucking mediocre. Never finished it.

>>8927839
Based!

>>8933041
people were finishing story mode in under 30 minutes and getting a steam refund, it wasn't garbage but it wasn't a good game. It's basically cinematic sonic dash.

>>8932908
yea. The big problem with 3D sonic is that sega never really nailed down the 'toy factor' of controlling the character. For stuff like mario and spyro the devs worked hard on making sure a player could have fun with no levels or objectives just from the character's movement options, and the levels were built around that movement style. Sonic never had that, and even in the good 3D sonic games the level design never really harmonised with the character's movement.

>>8933207
Now that’s fucking funny. Fair enough, figure I’d just double check as I’m finding a lot of the people who used to peddle the “sonic has always sucked” meme were just playing them completely wrong.

>>8930243
The Adventure games had it right with the gameplay, more faithful to the 2D games than Sonic's contemporaries were with their 3D jump (Rayman, Donkey Kong, Bubsy and even Mario). But the locations weren't enough like the classics (not bright, colorful and bizarre enough) and was a bit too linear.
Then Heroes solved that but had the ruin it with it's character swap gimmick. There's a mod for SA1 that adds in the Heroes zones and it's the best of both worlds, how both games should've done it

>>8932232
>a shame that poor Yuji Naka’s career is dead because everyone wanted to get on the hate train for Balan
Naka deserves to have his career killed after how he did a retarded flying clown game instead of a proper Saturn Sonic, sabotaged the American team's work on Sonic Xreme, and basically killed Sega.

Never heard of Video killed the Radio star? Or how talkies ended the silent movie actors stardom? Sonic reached its height just as a major shift in games was happening. Even if Adventure 1/2 aren't bad games,sonic had trouble adjusting.

>>8933628
Mario is older than Sonic and never died though. I don't think 2D video games are much like silent movies. It's more like 3D Sonic in particular was a disaster.

>>8929303
There is maybe 6 or 7 good games, 1 great game out of 200 sonic games. Shovelware franchise

>>8933226
That's a very smart take I've never seen before and meshes with my own experience of 3D Sonic.

THE ROAMING ROMANS

Are any of the post-adventure games any good besides Generations?

>>8933686
Nintendo's 2D games are some of the few franchises who transitioned unscathed as fast. There's only a handful of other cases. A lot of franchises sat out fifth gen

>>8934610
Advance series, Rush series, Colors for the DS, and I guess Mania. I personally prefer Unleashed over Generations but will admit the game is flawed and if you don't like medal collecting or the Werehog then you probably won't enjoy it too much. Sonic 4 is okay, supposedly the Boom games on 3DS are not that bad

I really like Gems Collection, it was one rare occurence when SEGA actually acknowledged some of the really obscure games like Sonic the Fighters

>>8930243
From a tech standpoint, yes... Or maybe, as smaller, more focus games handled pinball physics far better than any 3D Sonic game officially. I think scope is why SA1 killed Sonic, because instead of just making the game long term fans needed, then make a sequel that push the envelope, making it pander to Japs that never liked and never will like Sonic was the deciding factor for why Sonic is a meme when the west doesn't make his content.

>>8932232
>poor Yuji Naka’s career is dead because everyone wanted to get on the hate train for Balan.
>Poor Yuji Naka
You were making such a based post then you had to go full retard. That bastard deserve his death, stop defending him.

>>8933386
>The Adventure games had it right with the gameplay, more faithful to the 2D games than Sonic's contemporaries were with their 3D jump (Rayman, Donkey Kong, Bubsy and even Mario)
Think what you wanna think, but besides fucking Bubsy (because what the fuck are you even thinking about that trash for when NONE of his "games" were ever good in the first place, 2D or not), I'd much rather play Rayman 2/3, Mario 64/Sunshine (if it wasn't as janky AS a fucking 3D SOnic game, so I'll just play AHiT instead, and the only reason DK64 failed wasn't the gameplay, it was the gameplay loop being 5x WAY too bloated and convoluted, not because nothing from DKC1-3 couldn't work in 3D or some meme opionion like that)

It's so idiotic hearing people worship SA1/2 when only autistic fans can defend them, while Rayman, DKC and of course Mario set standards for their time, and still to this day get mentioned has "always good" in casual discussion. Never anything 3D Sonic, and only somewhat 2D Sonic.

>>8933628
>>8933686
Comparing black and white silent films to gaming is like comparing soup to paint. Atari is far more like "silent films" than fucking 2D video games in general, which is literally mentality retarded to think since 2D games STILL fucking exist today, unlike any silent films.

>>8936020
I refuse to believe this is real and I'm just gonna keep defending Yuji Naka because he made so many great games I love.

>>8936039
Never meet your heroes, more like never worship any.

>>8933041
>was Forces as bad as people say it was?
Yes, but not for the reasons you'd usually expect from a Sonic game. Forces really is just so mediocre, bland, and boring that very few other Sonic games are as painful to sit through. The gameplay is boring, the levels are boring, the story barely exists and is a ton of wasted potential, the music is forgettable, the game is likely unfinished since Chaos was essentially cut from the story. I could go on, but yeah it's not that the game is a buggy mess or has horrible tacked on gimmicky mechanics, it's just that there really isn't anything to enjoy about it. Even through all the bullshit in Sonic 06, I was still able to find entertainment in it even if half of it came from laughing at the bad parts and abusing glitches. Forces doesn't even have that, I just feel like I wasted my time playing it in spite of the fact that it's ridiculously short

>>8936039
I can enjoy Ren and Stimpy while disliking John K. for being a groomer sleazebag

>>8936020
>>8936049
I don’t exactly trust western devs or today’s vidya journalists. I’d want some evidence on this before I take sides. We see how easily people can make unsupported accusations and ruin peoples lives or get attention.

At the very least I’m just sad because Yuji was able to put together teams that could really capture that hard to attain “soul” factor.

>>8936636
Sonic was made by committee, Naka's reputation as the 'father of sonic' or whatever is just bullshit based on him taking credit for other people's work. Balan is proof that when he's actually in creative control he's no genius or visionary.

>>8936815
Yeah, it's pretty clear Naka has one idea of his own and it's "magic clown helps kids in dream world."

>>8934610
Peak Soul

>>8933686
Sonic never died either

You're gonna roam those ruins

>>8934662
>>8936084
Might pick up Unleashed and 06 then. There’s a certain comfyness I got from play 1 through Adventure 2 that I kinda want more of, even if they aren’t necessarily perfect by any stretch.
>>8936815
Balan had a lot of great things going for it… but sadly, the most important thing (being the gameplay) just wasn’t that good. It wasn’t as bad as everyone says, and it’s a hell of a lot better than the demo, but it’s just a mediocre collectathon platformer at best. The ost (aside from the stolen Ghost Busters theme) and art direction are amazing though, and some of the later levels are honestly pretty nice.

>>8937134
3D Sonic games killed Sonic. Sonic Mania was basically just a eulogy.

>>8938561
Sonic Mania Plus was the first “perfect” game I’ve played in years.

>>8934610
whats that from

>>8938569
Concept renders for the first Adventure game from 1998 I believe.

Is it worth playing 3D Blast on Mega Drive just for the DX mod? Or should I stick to Saturn?

>>8938613
Do you own a Saturn copy already? If not, I can't really see any other reason to choose the Saturn version unless you just really prefer the soundtrack. The DX mod is pretty cool, and you can play it on real hardware with a flash cart, but it's nothing groundbreaking. I'll never understand the people that act like the game is unplayable without it since it really doesn't add or change that much in the grand scheme of things

>>8938646
I just have a burned copy on Saturn and it’s where I played it as a kid. I’m getting a Mega Drive next month some time so I’ll just wait for then. Something about the MD version looks more appealing to me for some reason as well.

>>8938651
Yeah, the colors pop more and I personally think it looks nicer, but the Saturn version has its fans too. If you're getting a Mega Drive you might as well check out that DX mod though assuming you're getting a flash cart. If you don't wanna spend that kind of money I'd still say it's worth picking up a 3D Blast cart though, I can't imagine they're expensive

>>8938686
Yeah gonna be getting a flashcart and hopefully with the 50/60hz switch mid as I’m a PAL fag

>>8927816
It’s just now dawning on me how slick the cover art for Sonic & Knuckles was

Could I get some tips before starting 06

>>8927839
Based. the adventure games are at least as good as other platformers in their day. Sonic only got bad post dreamcast. You could say the series truly ends with 06/Naka leaving because they continued the story and riffs on adventure's multiple characters & playstyles until then, but the story and gameplay started getting bad as early as heroes anyway, so for me the series ends with SA2.

>>8941996
>those 06 posters

Makes me melancholy

Could I get some rom hack recommendations? Played this one (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=freDAY2Nu4w)) and had a lot of fun with it so I’m wondering what other good ones are around.

>>8939905
Don’t jump during the mach speed sections unless you absolutely have to. Use the light speed dash during those sections when you can because they usually put Sonic in a decent spot.

>>8936049
>>8936636
The first one listed is actually fairly well documented, as the devs didn't exactly stay silent about it
>The problem was that the creator of NiGHTS and the man credited with the creation of Sonic the Hedgehog, Yuji Naka, was not consulted on this, and became very irate, and, according to Stolar, forbade the team from using the engine, even threatening to leave the company if it didn’t happen. The team was back to square one, with two weeks lost developing on an engine that they couldn’t use.
>Wallis explains: “We (were) told to shift Sonic 32X development onto (the SoA-designed) system, despite not having hardware specs, development systems, or any documentation.
>http://www.lostlevels.org/200403/timeline.shtml
Timeline provided by Mike Wallis
> Q: Thoughts on Yuji Naka?

>A: Naka-san became known by many to be the father of Sonic. (I’d like to meet the mother and interview them both! j/k =P) It has been shared that Naka-san was extremely determined and pushed the team around him, even if his own programming wasn’t the most amazing. It was this drive that manuevered him politically to carry the spotlight of Sonic's success and his association with Sonic. He had strong beliefs that only his Japanese team should work on Sonic. When I presented him and the Sega executives with our original demo videos for Sonic Mars, he said to me simply, "good luck". This simple statement, I think, summed up his attitude about our team.

The second part about Naka saying sneaky shit in moon thinking nobody would understand and hear him can be heard straight from the source, Mark Subotnick, a producer for Sega at the time who was interviewed for a podcast

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81ifFRBgNyU

It's not MUH JOURNALIST boogieman, Senn worked on Xtreme and even kept a big archival compendium on it for like a decade, and the other guy was a producer for sega

>>8933686
Mario never died but 3d Mario was never as popular as the 2d games, and the 'New' 2d games are a pretty bad legacy, so Mario hasn't being living well either.

>>8942529
Gotcha. I was watching some S rank gameplay and those sections definitely look the most frustrating so I’ll keep that in mind.

On a side note, it’s neat how open the levels are. I’ll be interested to see if it’s as bad as people made it out to be, because at least in the case of the S Ranks and Speedruns they sure do make it look fun at times.

>>8942557
>The second part about Naka saying sneaky shit in moon thinking nobody would understand and hear him can be heard straight from the source, Mark Subotnick, a producer for Sega at the time who was interviewed for a podcast
I believe the one about X-treme, but this one sounds like BS. Up until this point, nobody else working on that game has said anything about Naka, and other, more reliable sources say that the game was canceled because the team missed deadlines and budgets, and because it just plain sucked. Plus, the idea of Naka plotting to fire everyone during a company tour sounds super fucking contrived, like a cheesy supervillain from a shitty fanfic.

>>8942575
COPE

>>8942575
>3d Mario was never as popular as the 2d games,
Then why is Mario 64 the most iconic game of all time to millennials? Literally every modern platformer is based on it and every gamer literally hail it as the beginning of modern gaming.

>>8943213
god I wish that were me

>>8933721
If you're gay, maybe, I think they're all great

>>8943231
We all do fren

>>8927816
well what was their plan for the sequel?

S3&K was a great idea that took finesse to pull off, but THEN WHAT?

Genesis was dead and Sega couldn't keep milking Genesis Sonic by releasing the same game a 6th time with a new coat of paint.

>>8927839
Out of jail so soon christine?

>>8942685
>then why is [false claim] true?
Because you're a nintendie who has limited knowledge of video games. Many such cases!

>played all the old games multiple times
>thread makes me want to try some modern sonic
>all modern sonic is terrible
>see that the nips really liked the Tokyo Olympics game
>see that it has a retro mode
>copies are on sale for super cheap

…. Hope I didn’t make a mistake.

>>8943583
I'm a classiccuck, I haven't even played Mario 64. I know what actually changed and revolutionized gaming, and Sonic never did that, Mario did. I get why it did though, Sonic filters too many braincells by nuGamers today, but that's classic Sonic that does that, modern Sonic was just never good in the first place because no one even talks about the gameplay of that shit, just the cringe animeshit stories.

>>8944167
For what it’s worth, I don’t think a lot of people play modern sonic right either. I was watching some reviews of Colors Ultimate and it was wild to see how bad the people harping on it actually played it. One was complaining about a slow section that made him wait… when there were platforms all around him he could have jumped to and gain access to the upper level.

Not saying modern sonic games are the best or anything, but the same inability to play them with the right mindset is what I think usually leads them to being so poorly received.

>>8944257
That's because instead of making a complete boostfag game where Sonci just holds x 2 win, htey tried pandering to oldfag fans of the classic era with a very tone depth and poorly done attempt at doing so

People that play the boost style modern Sonic games actively don't want to deal with platforming in the first place, as it's more of a trackmania racer styled game in general that can't flow naturally into platforming. This is different from both classic and Adventure sonic eras, as classic actually has natural designed lelves for speed, exploration and platforming, but Adventure gets by with a slower base speed to classic Sonic for platforing, but keeps all the speed sections in automated set pieces where they get to shine best. This was removed for boost because now all of the gameplay is what was originally a uncontrolled spectacle, and trying to make the game actually controllable during those moments isn't possible for platforming.

>sega actually let sonic team delay Frontiers
>they said they want it to be the new Adventure
>Ian Flynn doing the story
>ghost Amy supposedly going to have a big presence

I don’t want to fall for the sonic cycle of hype any more… but I also want to be excited.

>>8927816
I don't know if it's because I didn't have Sonic 3 when I was a kid, but it just doesn't grab me the way first 2 games do.

Music isn't as good, visuals aren't as good aside from maybe some cool effects and designs. Levels feel eh. Idk not the best game in trilogy for me.
Haven't been it still, maybe it gets great at the very end.

>>8927816
I remember when I first got PS2 and was in a game shop and saw the Shadow game. I wanted it so much but it was too expensive. Little did I know how lucky I was not to buy it.

>>8944817
I wasn’t so lucky, but thankfully the multiplayer mode was still fun to play with friends. I remember that I couldn’t comprehend how something like Shadow could have been put out after SA2 considering it was such a massive step backwards.

>>8942685
I think he's talking about raw sales numbers which is true. 2D Mario sales a metric ton more then 3D Mario.

>>8929303
yeah like Sonic Labyrinth

op had a rough transition

>>8945717
Because of nostalgia, which isn't a great mentric of relevance.

>>8945797
the NSMB games are better than the majority of 3D Mario games except 3D Land and the Galaxy games.

>the NSMB games are better than the majority of 3D Mario games except 3D Land and the Galaxy games.

So this Boom cartoon… it’s not bad.
I like how it’s just Seinfeld but Sonic characters.

>>8927816
I remember being a kid expecting Sonic 4 to continue the story.
They released Sonic 3d which was the last Sonic game i ever got.

Anyone know where I can download the webrip of the new movie? I’d like to avoid torrents if possible.

>>8942227

Full hacks:
Metal Sonic Hyperdrive
Metal Sonic Rebooted
Sonic Megamix 3.0 (later versions are for Sega CD and are unfinished)
Sonic 2: Advanced Edit

Character replacement:
Sonic 2: Pink Edition (Amy and Cream)
Sonic 1 w/ Rouge the Bat
Sonic 1 w/ Shadow the Hedgehog

>>8947267
Thank you, grabbing them now. Megamix looks particularly good, and the Rouge hack looks like it’ll be fun to mess around in.

As a Kid: Sonic is the best
As a Teen: Sonic is for retards
As an Adult: I am the retard

>>8948021
As a kid:Sonic is cool
As a teenager: Sonic is gay
As an adult: I am the gay

>>8927816
Sonic Adventure 2 Battle is the only legitimately fun sonic game ever made.

>>8947267
Are there any good tutorials on how to apply hacks to genesis games?

>>8948709
Scratch that, looks like the wiki I found them pre-patched

Not trying to derail the thread but:
does anyone have the Amy XL mod? Looks like it has been removed from everywhere and no links remain.

>>8927889
>Idk I'm told them Romans could roam

Whats up with the roaming Romans stuff in Sonic? Is it just some weird manual lore?

>>8949130
They were escaping from the Battling Barvarians

>>8949396
It was the Violent Visigoths

>>8947267
Megamix is weirdly good. It feels like what sega was trying to do with Sonic 4, except it all feels good.

Also, is there some reason people choose Sonic 1 for rom hacks rather than 2 or 3? Is the code more malleable or something?

>>8933546
Fucking this. I had been in charge of SEGA I be like motherfuckers we need a good Sonic game for the Saturn. To this day I still think that no Good Sonic game in the Saturn killed the system.

>>8933226
Yea which is odd cause 2D Sonic feels great to just fuck around with. I feel they should have gone a more pinball or marble physics for 3D. Like just rolling around hills and shit.

>>8942685
He is talking in terms of sales numbers and mainstream appeal. 2D Mario was king with even older people playing it in their off time back in the day. 3D Mario was more of a kids game than 2D Mario was in its hayday.

>>8936815
Naka is a great programmer but mediocre designer. His best work has always been when he was in charge of the backend of things and his quality of work deminished when he went the producer route. He is not a game designer and never was.

>>8938927
When I was a kid I wanted to tattoo that into my arm. Never did it as an adult...

>>8950589
Normies can't cope with freedom in games, games have to play itself or be so brainddead they hardly have to think to play it.

>>8950645
Idk, Super Monkey Ball had marble physics and it was HUGE in the Arcades and still is. When I was a kid I imagined 3D Sonic to be this huge map where you just roll around and bounce all over the place. I never imagined it was gonna be like a super linear thing until I played Adventure.

>>8950656
Also just like in Sonic World each stage would have missions for you to do. You gain some magic mcguffin after you beat each mission and the Goal Ring to the next zone is locked behind a certain requirement to proceed. You don't need to do all the missions to go to the next Level but if you want the Chaos Emeralds you might need to do extra missions or find a secret spot on the level. My game idea is 7 Zones + Final Zone which you can only go if you have the Emeralds.

>>8950656
>Arcades
Those aren't normies, stupid retard.

>>8950643
If it wasn’t for the fandom sonic has gathered, I’d say it would make a really cool tattoo… but yeah, best to stay away from that

Been playing 06 for the first time today… how in the world did journalists and youtubers make this game look so unplayable. Now mind you, by no means am I trying to defend it as a good game. The camera, framerate, and load times will keep it from that, but the amount of glitches or times sonic randomly missed scripted events in the footage I’ve seen vs what I’m experiencing is drastic, not to mention how easy they made dying look when there’s tons of things spread around the levels to actually give you some breathing room when you fuck up. Maybe it’ll get worse as it goes, but as of now I’m not experiencing nearly the issues from the various reviews I’ve read.

>>8950839
Now they are. Arcade games are just giant phone apps now.

>>8951459
yeah if you're familiar with sa1 06 really isn't THAT bad. gameplay-wise its mostly just a jankier version of it

You know, Sega is re-releasing Sonic + Knuckles AGAIN this year in a game called Sonic Origins?

Hardly a collpase I say if they're been selling the same game for 30 years.

>>8951459
The game was suppose to revolutionize not Sonic, but define what a game was meant to be like. It was Cyberpunk in a age where muh patches didn't exist. If you don't look at it like it was suppose to be a 20/10 game but clearly failed to meet the hype it claimed to be brining, then of course you think le jounros were just meming it as the worst game ever.

No, it really was a failure. A game shouldn't try to be "all that" and fail so badly. That's how many things like Balan Blunderland got for doing the same shit, it's not some "conspiracy".

>>8952601
It’s really not. Again, there are things that keep it from being a “good” game, but it’s still fun. You’d have to be actively trying to play it wrong to make it as bad as I’ve seen it look through the years, and honestly, even with all the issues I’ve had with it I’m still having fun. In some ways the formula sort of reminds me of the OG games more so than Advance/2.
>>8952672
I just wish Origins was getting a physical release. Though something funny, the Mania devs wanted to point out they were only working on the Sonic 3 & Knuckles port so people are wondering if the 1 and 2 ports will be low effort comparatively.