/vr/ - Retro Games

"Playstation can't do 2D" is a myth. The Playstation GPU has a dedicated mode for drawing screen-aligned rectangles which is twice as fast as polygons.

>>8854213
?? what are you talking about you nigger. like two thirds of the PS1 library are 2D games, that was never a myth

>>8854213
>>8854234
ps1 can't do 2d

>>8854213
Most people don't even know what a sprite really is.

PSX does: 8x8 and 16x16 sprites with 16 colors per sprite. Snes does 64x64 sprites with 16 colurs. Snes supports scaling, rotation and multiple backgrounds in hardware. PSX does not. When it comes to pure 2D graphics the SNES runs circles around the PSX.

>>8854284
kek

>>8854284
based snes chad

>"ps1 can't do 2d"
>SotN is better on PS than on "muh best 2D console of 5th gen" Saturn
>rest of 2D games like Megaman, SHMUPS and so on work just fine on PS and often better than on Saturn
>"the 2D powerhouse" Saturn can't even handle transparency right

>>8854275
Come on now

>>8854284

>>8854284
Okay, and...?

>>8854295
Shut the fuck up australia. You have no idea whats going on anyway.

>>8854284
>Snes supports scaling, rotation and multiple backgrounds in hardware
It supports scaling of one layer in a dedicated mode, the snes itself has a hard hardware limit on the number of layers being 3. PSX has no such hardware limits.

>>8854307
He's right. Seethe and die.

>>8854284
Now tell us how many 64x64 sprites can the SNES do on one screen. Because the PS1 has no technical limit on the number thanks to operating in a superior way making by accident collision calculation more precise and fast.

>>8854295
emulation doesn't count

>>8854324
None of what he said had anything to do with emulation.

>>8854295
ps1 cant even handle 3d
https://youtu.be/c0UFsn1inps

>>8854329
you missed the point nigger

>>8854334
https://youtu.be/XqbXtAagX2A

>>8854343
https://youtu.be/pqGQfCACK9I

>>8854334
Saturn had the worst 3D of the generation, made even worse by the fact that most devs prioritized PS anyway and managed to squeeze more out of it. but yeah, let's cherrypick 1 example of an obvious classic, Independence Day.
guess you can stick to "muh 2D powerhouse" meme, it's easier to mislead people when all you got was SHMUPS, 2D JRPGs and VNs.

>>8854314
Only psychopaths and kids before the age of 5 refer to themselves in the third person.

>>8854348
the saturn was more powerfull when it came to 3d, its just that it was complicated to make games, the ps1 was easier that's why theres shit tons of shity 3d games on it, just look at quake or hellslave and stop being gay

>>8854365
lol

>>8854343
Ah yes, let's compare two completely different engines. That seems fair.

If the PSX version was remade into a 3D engine designed for the system in mind, rather than porting an engine designed solely to use the CPU, it would run just as well as the Saturn version, because that's exactly what it did. With that said the Saturn version is a recreation As much as it is a direct port and as such it's very unfaithful, with everything generally having worse behaviours. Gameplay is a lot more faithful in the PSX version.

and this comes from a big fan of the Slavedriver engine. The engine is great, but DN3D on Saturn is just not a great game past the novelty of the engine.

>>8854348
>let's cherrypick 1 example
I know a few games that are better on saturn

>>8854382
hexen on saturn then

>>8854365
>the saturn was more powerfull when it came to 3d
Fuck no, and the stupid thing used quads instead of triangles for no sensible reason, making PC and Playstation ports a fucking nightmare. It was a clownshow of a device that put Sega out of business.

>>8854382
>with everything generally having worse behaviours
idk where this comes from, maybe from your ass

>>8854389
yes it was and all your saying is Muh it was hard to make games on it, which it was, but that doesn't mean the saturn couldn't handle 3d

>>8854389
Quads instead of tris is just a symptom of the deeper problem, which is using forward mapped textures ("distorted sprites") instead of inverse mapped textures. Not having UV coordinates is a bigger deal than quads.

>>8854284
You should be a lawyer.

>>8854390
It comes from playing the fucking game and realizing everything is off. First thing you do in the game is shoot using the pistol and even the timing of that is off. Enemies don't attack or move like they should, etc it's on the same level as those fan recreations "let's play [insert Build engine game] recreated in Doom!!11"

>>8854365
>the saturn was more powerfull when it came to 3d
ah, a Sega fan classic: explaining why on paper and in theory, Sega Saturn had way better 3D than PS, but in the end PS somehow got Ridge Racer Type 4, Crash, Spyro, MGS, FFVIII, etc. (but these DO NOT COUNT, OK? they're SHITTY games), when Saturn barely had any 3D to begin, multiplats all looked worse (THESE ALSO DON'T COUNT THEY'RE ALL BAD), and the big 3D games it got barely looked better than PS in any way (but of course they are all 100x better games than anything on PS and 3D is not important anyway).

>>8854396
I've played both version and I don't know wtf your talking about, sorry if I'm not an autist who gets frustrated when something is 1 frame off

>>8854381
nice argument

>>8854392
>but that doesn't mean the saturn couldn't handle 3d
oh, now let's move the goal post from
>the saturn was more powerfull when it came to 3d
to
>at least Saturn could handle 3D, ok? you're saying it could only do 2D!

>>8854398
b-but but the segaretro wiki

>>8854398
panzer dragoon saga
sega rally
quake
duke nukem
last bronx
vf remix
sega touring car
stellar assault
wing arms
to name a few
look better than any of your poorfag gaystation game

>>8854403
are you retarded?
hard to develop for =/= shit at 3d

>>8854405
>vf remix
vf megamix

>>8854406
what matters is the result. you can forever say Saturn was better in 3D, but even Sega devs failed to demonstrate that, when allegedly "worse" PS easily demonstrated great 3D in many games. insisting "Saturn was still better on paper" sounds rather pathetic and is at best wanking to tech specs, at worst blaming the devs for not working hard enough to understand Saturn's shit architecture.

>>8854418
> insisting "Saturn was still better on paper
just look at the examples above of good looking 3d saturn games and stfu

It's amazing this board isn't about engaging in your shared love of retro gaming but instead is about having retroactive console wars.

>>8854423
>>8854405
oh please
>panzer dragoon saga
"The programmers were eventually able to transition to the debug Saturn they had received, but the process was difficult and the game had a very low frame rate at first, before it could be locked at 20 FPS.[23] The six levels of Panzer Dragoon are barren landscapes with ancient ruins, which is consistent with the "simple" style appropriate for the Saturn. The first two levels that the team programmed, a desert (level 2) and a forest (level 5), did not have any objects or anything besides sand and forest effects, again because the team was unsure how far the hardware could be pushed. Keeping CPU limitations in mind, simple tornado effects were added to level 2, so that it did not look too bland.[25]"
>sega rally
it's a launch game and looks like PS launch game. I think GBA could handle it
>vf remix
do you even understand what you're typing? anyway, no, it doesn't look better than Tekken 3. Saturn couldn't handle VF3 no matter how Sega tried, goes to show I guess.
>rest
whatever buddy. the "best" of Saturn looks like an "ok" PS game to me.

>>8854449
next level cope, panzer dragon is better than ff, sega rally is better than ridge racer, and vf megamix is better than tekken 3, sorry but that's how it is

>>8854405
>sega rally
>sega touring car
Meh. They were good, but they were obsolete, and if you think that they look better than GT and CMR then you are delusional.
>quake
>duke nukem
Well, yeah, Saturn had FPS games that were not ported to PS1 for reasons that had nothing to do with tech. PS1 had some exclusives too. What is your point?

>>8854284
>cherry picked stats which didn’t tell the whole story

>>8854429
American marketing is so powerful these people are still brainwashed today and they don't even know it

>>8854553
who's coping again? all I see is Saturn cope, neither PS nor N64 owners (nor any other platform owners for that matter) don't need to jump so many hoops as Saturn owners to desperately prove their system wasn't an over-engineered trainwreck.
literally all you say is just denial:
>sega rally is better than ridge racer
RR1? maybe. RR4? no. it's not quite fair to Saturn as it's a '98 game, but still. if you don't see the difference, you need to get your eyes checked. by the way—it's not even considered a "touchstone" game on PS as much as Sega Rally is for PS. maybe because PS actually had games, you know.
>panzer dragon is better than ff
apples to oranges. regardless, i just told you that Panzer Dragoon was a 20fps game with barely any objects on screen so that Saturn wouldn't shit itself. you literally just denied what i said.
>vf megamix is better than tekken 3
it's not "VF", Sega fan. and please tell me how anything in this is better than Tekken 3. at most, it looks same level.

>/vr/ the place where decades old console wars live on in the autism of loser 30 year old men

>>8854275
t. TorMuck

>>8854559
duke was ported to the ps1 and it ran like shit

>>8854559
never said sega rally and stcc looked better than gt or cmr, but they do play better

>>8854179
Can you play light gun games on the screen?

>>8854179
Nice toilet bro

ps1 can't do 3d.

>>8854572
1, you sound extremely cringe and gay
2, why are you comparing sega rally with rr4, you could at least compare touge king or sonic r idk
3, panzer dragoon saga has more 3d objects in game than ff, so fuck off
4, fighters megamix has more content than tekken 3, and just plays better

>>8854179
>a zoomie can't into words
Shocker

>>8854786
meant to>>8854606

>>8854393
Wrong. PS1 and Saturn had no z-buffer. Because Saturn used quads, it didn't have the texture warping problem that PS1 had. Saturn was a well thought out machine.

>>8854958
>well thought out
>Can't even use its second processor unless you disassemble the massive paperweight of a dev kit to do it
>Have to disassemble it anyway for any debugging whatsoever
>Couldn't even save its own arcade ports because of the RAM cartridge

>>8854958
>PS1 and Saturn had no z-buffer
completely irrelevant to the point I made
> Because Saturn used quads, it didn't have the texture warping problem that PS1 had
incorrect
>Saturn was a well thought out machine.
just laughable

>>8854958
>Saturn was a well thought out machine
>The 2 CPU can't access RAM at the same time, essentially making one of them useless 99% of the time
>An entire graphics chip that's only good for rendering the skybox
Great joke, anon.

>>8854958
>Saturn was a well thought out machine.

>>8854572
>these people are still brainwashed
I think deep down inside they love it

>>8854976
>>8854985
>>8854995
>>8855018
and they cope harder

>>8854284
The PSX gpu fast enough to draw several thousand of 16x16 pixel sprites at 60fps. This is enough to draw more background layers than SNES. The only thing that PSX cannot do to well is line scrolling effects.

>>8854284
The PSX CPU alone can software render shit faster that the SNES can do in hardware

>>8854334
>independence day
trash game

>>8856795
cry more

>>8856776
>>8856789
Snes is still more powerful and nothing you say can change that fact

>>8854393
no UV coordinates AND no texture cache, which is slow.

>>8857218
A texture cache isn't as important if your textures are forward mapped since the access pattern is much more linear. The VRAM itself was slow, though, which is also a problem.

>>8857002
this scares the SNESfag

>>8854295
>Australia kun
>actual sociopath
>listens to phil collins
You can't make that shit up.

>>8854284
Then why is the PS1 version of Street Fighter Alpha 2 superior to the SNES version?

>>8854213
>like two thirds


I don't think there were that many PS1 2D games.
How many games were released for the PS1 in the US?

>>8857002
The PS1 is leagues more powerful than the SNES, you technologically illiterate retard.

https://youtu.be/U8btNneN8ew?t=6150

https://youtu.be/ToihvMRsi7A?t=1021

>>8859153
Because the psx version tricks its way out via a polygon engine. Its not a 2D game.

>>8860104
Only some of the spark effects are polygons.

>>8860115
All the fighters are flat shaded alpha polygons. If you pick 2 Zangiefs SFA2 starts to lag like hell on the PSX. Especially when Zangief jumps.

>>8860119
>flat shaded alpha polygons
you don't know what any of those terms mean

>>8860121
Spare me your pathetic ad hominem. Disprove me. Or shut the fuck up.

>>8860128
Characters aren't flat shaded alpha polygons because they aren't made from solid color translucent shapes. It's disproven by looking at any frame of the game and knowing what words mean.

>>8860104
If you run the game in a debugging emulator, you can look at the GPU command list. Everything is built from flat 16x16 tiles, not polygons.

>>8860183
still 3d dumbo

>>8860208
cope

>>8860208
Wrong. Rect is the PS1 chipset's dedicated 2D rendering function, completely opposed to the 3D (ish) triangle functions. It scales and rotates based on a 2D grid using 2D transforms whereas the polygon functions expect to receive 2D points AFTER a 3D translation.

>>8860593
Actually, the rect command doesn't support scaling and rotation. You have to use polys for that.

>>8860128
Pointing out you don't know the meaning of words isn't an ad hominem, it's a fact. You know that if you knew what words mean. You need to take your indignant cope and fuck of back to le twitter. Oh wait.

>>8854284
Based

>>8860208
>noooo! these 2D tiles, they're not REAL 2D tiles, they're actually 3D tiles! they're just fake 2D plastered on 3D, I read this in Reddit comments! you think it's real 2D, but it's FAKE 2D!… PS can't do 2D because… it just can't, ok?!

>>8854365
bro the Saturn is a great console but it can't touch the ps1 in terms of 3d
and that's ok when your self worth isn't tired to 30 old children's toys

>>8860864
yes it can, and go back

>>8854284
how can one post be wrong on so many levels? I don't think there is a single detail that is right

>>8860879
>and that's ok when your self worth isn't tired to 30 old children's toys

>>8860897
He's right technically. The SNES is more powerful than the Playstation because it has 5 layers (including objs) and the Playstation only has 1. It misses the point completely but it's true.

>>8854365
>the saturn was more powerfull when it came to 3d, its just that it was complicated to make games

When it comes to ps2 vs dc or ps3 vs x360, sega fanboys quickly change their tune.

>>8854213
> Rectangles are twice as fast as polygons

>>8861026
It's rectangles that don't need to calculate for viewing angles.

>>8861026
>you see Ivan, when draw rectangle, is faster because pixel also rectangle. but when draw triangle, need to divide all pixel in half, therefore twice as slow.

>>8861026