/vr/ - Retro Games

>>8827475
>entire career is one game
>based
kek no he milked Doom for 30 years, what a hack.

>>8827493
He posted John Carmack, not John Romero.

>>8827475
>performed miracles with the Jaguar, and personally shat on the Saturn.
>based

Terry Davis (PBUH)

>codes several masterpieces entirely alone and then quits at his peak

>>8827475
CARMACK IS A CHUD?
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!

I hate Nintendo as a company so goddamn much, but Iwata was the most based videogame programmer who ever lived.

>>8827564
nice self portrait

he's smelly and he has sex with farm animals, but this damn hippy can CODE

>>8827516
>>performed miracles with the Jaguar, and personally shat on the Saturn.
>>based

This is a twitter post from John, written in 2013. He basically called the Saturn architecture 'nuts'. I know he did go a little more into detail at one of his old QuakeWorld keynotes. I think someone in the audience asked him what his thoughts were on those consoles. He basically said that Sony had the best balanced machine for that generation. The N64 really was a scaled down SGi machine. John generally said that the Saturn architecture was nuts in the sense that it was 'convoluted' hardware design. Though Carmack was looking at the 3D capabilities of those machines. Carmack also criticized Sega or not going with a 3DFX solution for the Dreamcast.

>>8827475
Technical Mastering > Game Design
There are several technical demos that are better than most finished games.

>>8827667
I fucking loved Grid Runner as a kid.

>>8827475
>shat on the Saturn
>can't code on more than one cpu and gpu
>stubbornly sticks to C for years
>Duke3D outsells all his engine demo games
>fires all his coworkers in the process or they abandon him
>Tim and CO eat all the business of 3D game engines with their eloquent portable C++ unreal engine

need a new paradigm John?

>>8827669
wow, John really revealed secret knowledge here, I bet no one ever before him said or thought that. next up: John Carmack reveals GC had small discs, PS2 architecture was 'nuts' and Xbox was big and heavy and basically an Intel PC.

I don't understand why he was so autistically dedicated to forcing the Saturn to render things suboptimally. It's not like the others versions represented the PC version accurately, with their many cuts and all. He didn't give a fuck about how fakey Quake was on the Saturn, but NO, IT MUST RENDER THOSE WALLS PROPERLY GOSH DERN IT, FRAMES BE DAMNED

>>8827564
He has a mega-defined jaw. You're literally just saying stuff.

>>8827475
>performed miracles with the Jaguar, and personally shat on the Saturn
He sharted all over the Jagoff. Why the fuck are you lying on the internet?

weak nerd couldn't handle the dual processor power of the Chadturn.

>>8827834
>wow, John really revealed secret knowledge here,

It was a Twitter response. I know he did say more about the Saturn. But I can't seem to find any of it right now.

>>8827669
>console war shit
Who (that isn't a sub-80 IQ American) cares?

>>8827820
The first two generations of Unreal were the best.
Tim look like Jeffrey fucking Dahmer.

>>8828559
>Who (that isn't a sub-80 IQ American) cares?

Developers opinion on hardware ≠ console war shit.

>>8827475
still prefer saturn

The 17 year old that mogged Carmack

>>8827905
>I don't understand why he was so autistically dedicated to forcing the Saturn to render things suboptimally. It's not like the others versions represented the PC version accurately, with their many cuts and all. He didn't give a fuck about how fakey Quake was on the Saturn, but NO, IT MUST RENDER THOSE WALLS PROPERLY GOSH DERN IT, FRAMES BE DAMNED

He did say that in hindsight that he should have let the devs 'experiment'. But he wanted Doom to continue using an engine that didn't warp or swimming vertices.

>>8827669
N64 was the best, it's just everyone was shit at programming back then. Nowadays we're discovering that with good code Mario 64 could've run at 60 fps on n64 hardware instead of 20.

>>8828846

Apparently there was microcode in the 64 that Nintendo didn't want third party devs to tamper with, for various reasons, which did cause some performance issues. Though I think some devs were allowed to work around that. The small 4k memory buffer seemed to be an issue too. Give it enough time, and modern modders could find out ways to make thugs work more efficientlly.

>>8827475
A hack who can't design a game for shit and became an absolute sellout.

>>8827667
Actual chad programmer slash game designer.

>>8827820
Tim singlehandedly saved the video game industry.

Eh sabotages jarpigs, and doesn't afraid of anything

>>8827475
>faggot haircut
>Never ventured outside his FPS safespace
>makes some clunky, shitter FPS with edgy violence that's popular with incel school shooters
>Can't design a level to save his life
>Apparently can't even design a good FPS after Rage shat the bed
>Dude megapixels
GG faggot

>>8829432
>Programs Secret of Mana
>Becomes a beloved classic
Based?

>>8829435
>>Never ventured outside his FPS safespace

>>8827820
>can't code on more than one cpu and gpu
Elaborate.

>>8829369
>could find out ways to make thugs work more efficientlly.
How is that? Thugs don't seem like people who enjoy work

>>8829473
>How is that? Thugs don't seem like people who enjoy work

man, what an awful typo that is. Things... thugs... lets just go with 'thugs'. I think the N64 was an impressive piece of hardware, for what it was, but may have been handicapped a bit by Nintendo's cutting corners.

>>8829435
>GG faggot


Rogan: "Dude, my friends and I used to set up LAN parties all the time to play Quake/ Quake II/ Quake III. you're like a legend"

>>8827475
I'm not saying he's a better programmer, because he's not, but John Romero is more based uwu

>>8829460
Yes he did kickstart his career with side scrolling games, which only got popular because DOS sucked as scrolling graphics. Commander Keen games had ugly graphics and not very innovative gameplay compared to C64 and Amiga games that were already around for several years, but they became very popular regardless because there was nothing else to be played on the DOS. Since Wolfenstein 3D, Carmack hasn't tried making anything other than braindead FPS.

>>8829598
Outside of fucking models, importing barely legal Romanian ass, and generally riding his post-Doom grift into the ground, how and when the fuck is has he been based since 1996? Have you *read* his social media? He's a nonstop cringe machine.

>>8828559
He’s taking about the hardware limitations from the era as a key developer from the era you drooling, obsessed third world subhuman.

>>8829598
After parting ways with Carmack, Romeo immediately ran his own company into the ground and has been making shitty cellphone games ever since.

>>8829609
>moving goal posts
>blaming Carmack because of DOS limitations
>screeching about what other computers were capable of, as if that’s relevant

>>8829393
As a huge fan of his work, I find it hard to call Minter a 'chad'. He had some retro ASM chops but his modern games are far more pedestrian technically. I would bet Giles is the major coding force behind new Llamasoft games. His works, game design-wise, are just early 80s arcade games but cuhrehzeh. He's also, and a don't mince words here, a hyper-liberal furry faggot. He couldn't resist putting political messages into Polybius. That said, I love obnoxiously psychedelic graphics and early arcade games, so I'll always see what the ol' fruit is up to. He also peaked with the non-retro Space Giraffe and I can't be convinced otherwise.

>>8829621
>moving goal posts
He found a comfortable spot in the FPS genre, and has never ventured outside ever since. How is that moving the goal post?
>blaming Carmack because of DOS limitations
Not DOS' fault Commander Keen doesn't have a groundbreaking gameplay.
>screeching about what other computers were capable of, as if that’s relevant
Yes that's relevant, if Commander Keen was an Amiga game it wouldn't stand out so much.

>>8829612
He bankrolled Deus Ex.

>>8829650
Fair.

>>8829626
>his modern games are far more pedestrian technically
>His works, game design-wise, are just early 80s arcade games but cuhrehzeh.
That's more unique than anything Carmack will ever make. Jeff is really ahead of his time, he gave each of his game a personality.
>He's also, and a don't mince words here, a hyper-liberal furry faggot. He couldn't resist putting political messages into Polybius.
You sound salty man. And how is he a furry? He likes grass eating animals just like how normal people like cats, horses, and dogs. He's not into fursuits and yiff shit.

>>8828616
Build is a disaster from an architectural standpoint. It only wins through quantity and extensibility.

>>8829659
>>8829650
he also killed looking glass studios

>>8829596
Such a disappointment. Rogan was blinded by nostalgia and never asked intelligent questions.

>>8829596

Even Bill Gates wanted to play in the BIG DOOm tournament...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dVAhFYjp9c&t=1s

>>8829660
Ehhhhhh, we're realllly gonna say ecstacy-Tempest is more unique and innovative than the templates for practically every FPS game of the 90s? You're just not thinking about this objectively. You can like wacky Robotron, I love it too, but it's not Doom. It's not Quake. It's not some Mario tier "bigger than itself" thing with tons of mods and OC built on top of it.

>not a furry :^)
Yiffing is specifically mentioned in at least one of his games off hand, Space Giraffe. Probably a couple others I'm forgetting. I'm not 'salty', I like his work and respect him more than I hate his questionable tendencies, it just is what it is.

>>8829676
>Such a disappointment. Rogan was blinded by nostalgia and never asked intelligent questions.


I think Rogan was trying to find some kind of balance for his viewers. Like he didn't want to go too nerdy. I find it funny that John Carmack wanted to talk about training and MMA.

>>8829687
I wish I could have such a sitting session with him. I'd have so many questions pertaining to his early engine work and what could have been done differently. I have an obsession with comparing the technology of shooters from that era.

>>8829676
What could he possibly have to ask him organically? He's a midwit vessel and autopilots through every guest. Whenever he has a good show, it's always owed to the guest.

>>8829706
You pretty much explained why I don't like Joe Rogan in general.

>>8828846
no
there is still the texture bottle neck so everything will always look blurry as fuck plus cartridges couldn't store large file sizes

before DOOM, there was...

I'll just say what everyone's thinking - DOOM wasn't a very good game. Once the novelty wore off you were just humping walls while listening to the OST. It had virtually no storytelling, no character progression, no love interests. Literally nothing to keep the player hooked.

>pc supremacy
By programming something already fully capable of being done? Ooh, fucking congratulations, you just beat everyone else to market, what a fucking genius.
>miracles with the jaguar
What miracle? It's a fucking powerful goddamn system and all he did is port Doom poorly to it. The fucking 32x version is better than that trash.
>shat on the saturn
Proof he has no goddamn idea what he's talking about.
Overrated cunt of a human being who only gives a shit about fucking trash VR and fucking rockets (rockets! how fucking innovative! what next, the fucking wheel?) now. Fuck him.

>>8829772
>The fucking 32x version is better than that trash.
Hah, you got me there for a moment. Good one.

>forge a genre
>"you just beat everyone else to market"
rofl so salty

>>8829765
Yes there's almost zero progression and variety in the game, which makes exploring the copy paste world with copy paste enemies feels even more like a repetitive slog. While the likes of Dungeon Master, Ultima Underground, Space Hulk, and System Shock tried to revolutionize the FPS genre, Wolfenstein 3D and Doom killed it with their braindead design. Doom is a game you beat once and never play again because there's no alternative strategies or paths, and Wolfenstein 3D is way too boring to be beaten.

>>8829782
Poor kids are so unaware of actual videogame history. It's really pathetic how they've been brainwashed to think what they've been told is true.
Gaming is dead thanks to all of you believing in lies.

>>8827475
Me

>>8829808
you can still go back and play maze explorer anon

>>8827667
Jeff Minter rocks.

>>8829671
Nobody cares. It works and it's legacy is cemented.

All code is dirty. Even Quake and Doom engines.

>>8829683
>Yiffing is specifically mentioned in at least one of his games off hand
He has furries among his fans and gave them a nod once or twice, but he's not one of them.

>>8829772
>Proof he has no goddamn idea what he's talking about.
Didn't Carmack intentionally sabotaged the Saturn port of DOOM by forcing the conversion team to follow his unreasonable suggestions?

>>8829765
Story in a game is like a story in a porn movie. It's expected to be there, but it's not that important.

>>8830334
story is literally the most important part of a good porno

>>8827523
Heil Terry!

>>8829676
With as much brain damage as Joe Rogan has, you should be happy that he's capable of stringing together enough coherent sentences to keep an hours long podcast running routinely. Expectinh him to ask intelligent questions is expecting too much, but he should have somebody prepare questions for him to ask guests.

>>8829678
>Even Bill Gates wanted to play in the BIG DOOm tournament...
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dVAhFYjp9c&t=1s

I will add that, back in the day, Carmack and Bill Gates had a few well known back and forth exchanges about OpenGL vs DirectX. That video was made to promote DirectX and migrating DOS developers over to Windows 95. These days, Bill Gates owns ID Software.

>>8829807
>Wolfenstein 3D and Doom killed it with their braindead design. Doom is a game you beat once and never play again because there's no alternative strategies or paths, and Wolfenstein 3D is way too boring to be beaten
You must be baiting, Dungeon whatever, ultima, space whocares, and even a good game like System Shock have almost no mods and user content in today's age while doom and quake(especially doom) still get shitload of custom levels and gameplay mods - its precisely the opposite of what you and >>8829765 said - there's a shitload of variety of encounters to be made with the perfect enemy roster where every baddie has its use. Doom is genius precisely because it is streamlined in its weapons and enemies, and that's why people still make interesting maps and encounters in it to this day while games you listed are literally enclosed for a few playthroughs and then to be forgotten. Furthermore, legacy of idtech lives on to this day in the source engine and in games like Dishonored and Apex Legends
Terry A Davis said: "An idiot admires complexity, a genius admires simplicity" - no matter how much you bloat your favorite dungeon crawlers(or whatever the fuck games you are seething about losing in popularity to Doom) with storytelling, fluff and boring rpg features it will never win with simple elegance of Doom

>>8830587
That has less to do with design and more to do with the ready availability of modding tools, and later with the release of source code to the engine. Had Ultima Underworld released map making tools and engine source, it would have been Morrowind before Morrowind.

>>8831261
That's a lot of could-have-would-have. I'll just say that unless you invented time travel, Doom is the more influential and significant game. There are codes and design elements in FPS now that are lifted right out of Doom and Quake. What games did Ultima Underworld influence today? One, the Elder Scrolls series, that's all.

>>8827501
kek

>>8827475
20+ year marriage, tons of companies and games made together... divorced in 2021. Holy fuck women are brutal.

>>8827475
Bait aside, the sad thing is that there are people who genuinely think just that.

>>8831308
>That's a lot of could-have-would-have.
It's two things. Modding tools and a source code release. Those two things are the reason Doom has a lively mod community alive today and UU doesn't, it's not because "MUH PERFECT ENEMY BALANCE" or some fanboy shit, it's because the tools existed to make it happen.

>>8829765
so true! I can't even play games these days without a magical pocket fairy telling me exactly where to go all the time and constantly being interrupted by long cutscenes I don't really care about

>>8829596
god this episode was so funny to me, man could not stop talking about Quake

>>8827475
What on the Saturn because his brain is to smooth to figure it out. What a hack.

Jaguar is the most forgotten piece of crap.

>>8829765
if you want storytelling read a book faggot, the only thing that matters in games is gameplay, everything else is supplementary and adds to the overall charm of the game, but it shouldn't be the core focus of the game.

The reasons games suck now is because faggots like you think games should just be interactive movies.

The only good movie game ever made was metal gear solid, and it worked because the actual mechanics of the gameplay was fucking solid and awesome, the extra dialogue and movie shit was just a bonus you sat through because you were already invested in how good the game was.

>>8832042
> the only thing that matters in games is gameplay,
Tell that to Carmack LMAO

>>8832042
>if you want storytelling read a book
stop being misogynistic

>>8831386
>it's not because "MUH PERFECT ENEMY BALANCE"
you are so out of your fucking depth and it shows that you don't know what you are talking about. lol.

>>8832042
back to /v/

>>8830587
>have almost no mods and user content in today's age while doom and quake(especially doom) still get shitload of custom levels and gameplay mods
Because it had a level editor, and eventually the engine went open source. Also System Shock is a way more tightly designed game with more mechanics and verticality, not many people would make their own levels for it.
>there's a shitload of variety of encounters to be made with the perfect enemy roster where every baddie has its use.
Calling Doom a roster is laughable. So is any game with different weapon and enemy types then. Doom only has like 3 variations of each, the rest is copy paste.
>while games you listed are literally enclosed for a few playthroughs and then to be forgotten.
Are you kidding me? Immersive sims are infinitely more replayable than doom. Doom is simpler and more linear than tetris.
>Furthermore, legacy of idtech lives on to this day in the source engine and in games like Dishonored and Apex Legends
Tim Sweeney would be the biggest chad in gaming if that's your metric.
>Terry A Davis said: "An idiot admires complexity, a genius admires simplicity"
He's a programmer, not a game designer. Also a literal schizo.
>no matter how much you bloat your favorite dungeon crawlers(or whatever the fuck games you are seething about losing in popularity to Doom) with storytelling, fluff and boring rpg features it will never win with simple elegance of Doom
Elegant or not, doom is a game you play for 15 minutes and get bored because you've seen and done everything. Its a 6 button game where everything is copy pasted. Of course bigger games with more complex mechanics will have more longevity than doom.

>>8832365
>Elegant or not, doom is a game you play for 15 minutes and get bored because you've seen and done everything. Its a 6 button game where everything is copy pasted. Of course bigger games with more complex mechanics will have more longevity than doom.
How I know you haven't played Doom without telling me you played doom.

>>8832390
Doom is malware that finds its way into every man-made electronic. If it runs electricity it runs Doom.

>>8832284
See >>8830587
>doom and quake(especially doom) still get shitload of custom levels and gameplay mods [...]
>there's a shitload of variety of encounters to be made with the perfect enemy roster where every baddie has its use. Doom is genius precisely because it is streamlined in its weapons and enemies, and that's why people still make interesting maps and encounters in it to this day
He's saying the community is alive because it has the "perfect enemy roster" and is "streamlined in weapons and enemies" which is dumb fanboy shit. Hell, like nearly half the Doom fandom these days seems to be about replacing the original id enemies and weapons with OC Donut Steel enemies and weapons!

The community is alive and well because there are tools to make maps, and the source code is available to make TCs and mods and extensions. Neither of those things happened for the other games in question, which is why they didn't.

>>8832489
Yes, the most popular mod is brutal doom for fucks sake. Any sense of balance is thrown out of the window and nobody but /v/ autists cares. The community don't love doom because its a well desgined game, it's because it's a brainless shooter game that could be easily modded into something fun.

>>8830036
>Even Quake
Id Tech 2 is the lord and savior of C.

>shat on saturn
genuine faggot confirmed. go play with your vr bs carmcuck

>>8832365
>Because it had a level editor, and eventually the engine went open source.
System Shock also has modding tools, shitload of games actually have them, doesn't mean they have the same level of substance in their community
>Calling Doom a roster is laughable. So is any game with different weapon and enemy types then. Doom only has like 3 variations of each, the rest is copy paste.
Nigga can you read? I said simplicity is key, maybe a turdbrain obsessed with fluff and story can't understand this - this is proof you didnt play Doom - the few simple variants make huge difference in how encounters play - hitscan enemies that can snipe you but have low health, chaingunners who are used to pressure the player into hiding or dispatching them quickly, archviles as specialist monsters to ressurect monsters, hell knights to provide a health sponge barrier, I can go on and on, but you are arguing in bad faith. Also, that's the definition of the word "roster" you fucking retard.
>Immersive sims are infinitely more replayable than doom. Doom is simpler and more linear than tetris
Tetris is an immortal game, basically a perfected concept, you just proved my point. I like immersive sims too you fuckwit, Deus Ex is my favorite game of all time, doesn't mean every immersive sim you listed has better replayability than Doom - just look which has more replays and online coverage, ones you listed or doom?
>Tim Sweeney would be the biggest chad
Not biggest, but chad? Yes you fucker, I know your brain is obsessed with tribal conflicts and instigating shit on this board which makes you think that since I like doom I cannot enjoy Unreal but thats only your retarded worldview - Tim Sweeney from ZZT and Unreal era was an absolute chad, also instrumental to the evolution of video games
Also what >>8832390 said, you are just baiting
>>8832489
Wrong you idiot, that makes maybe 10% of mod community at most. More focus is on mapping

John was the man to beat and rightfully so. Great mind and cool dude.

>>8829683
In Tempest X3 for the ps1, made by high voltage/interplay, to unlock a port of Tempest 2000 you had to beat the original top 1 score and type "YIFF!" as the long name for your high score.

Also the yiff mention in space giraffe for those who wonder is that one of the (somewhat early) levels is called "the cube is not for yiffing" and you play the level again after the first time, the title permanently changes to "Cube : still not for yiffing" and both times there's an anthro fox holding a warning sign. In the background.

I still fucking love tempest tho.

>>8831308
this post makes me so mad
>What games did Ultima Underworld influence today?
fuckin Doom for one
UU came out a year and a half before Doom and also did fake 3D much better
Doom was great and Carmack is a legend, but he didn't advance beyond what UU had done technically until Quake

>>8834495
UU came out 2 months before Wolf3D. Hardly an influence, unless you thought Rome and Wolf3D was built in 2 months.

>>8829650
Eidos bankrolled Deus Ex.

>>8827493
>maintained success with a single game franchise for 30+ years
So, incredibly based successful businessman?

>>8834324
>System Shock also has modding tools
They were ass, though. The tools for Looking Glass' next game, Thief were still kind of ass, but were finally usable enough that a large and vibrant mod community evolved around it. Pic related. They were still held back by the lack of a source release, though they managed pretty well.

Doom has the first entry advantage, being the first PC game with a good set of mod tools, and the source code release further cemented its modding community. The gameplay being pretty good is largely irrelevant beyond the basic fact that it made people want to play it enough to become popular.

>>8834561
I unironically enjoy sewers as long as I can pretend the water is clean. Let's just call them aqueduct levels.

>>8834510
i just don't know how to respond to this except i'm not sure you played UU, which is fine, a lot of people didn't, especially compared to doom
when you listen to romero and petersen talk about what quake was originally meant to be, it's super clear that carmack was a fantasy nerd and would have played the shit out of UU with whatever time he wasn't programming wolf3d
don't move the goalposts either, i said doom not wolf3d, if you think carmack didn't desperately want to crib ideas from UU for his next project, you are committing a grievous folly

>>8830340
>story is literally the most important part of a good porno
Yeah, a good porno, but no-one cares enough whether their prono is good or not. Maybe women do? And what is the market for porn for women? Exactly.

I think everyone that needs a good story in porn switched to anime about 25 years ago.

>>8834897
There was no influence, no. There was no spell or sword. Doom was iterating on Wolfenstein. You're thinking of Heretic.

Jeff Minter hasnt coded an original game in his life, his entire career is ripping off arcade classics.

>>8837091
my point is that carmack, who is primarily known for pushing the envelope with regards to 3D technology, would have seen UU's superior presentation of a 3d worldspace and tried to incorporate it into Doom (and fell short, although Doom actually having elevation at all is a huge improvement over wolf3d), but did not improve upon it until Quake, four years later.
saying carmack could not have taken influence from UU because doom was a sci-fi game and UU was a fantasy game is missing my point.
i understand wanting to praise carmack, he's one of the all-time greats, but please show respect for ultima underworld, a game that was so far ahead of its time technologically that it took perhaps the industry's greatest technical innovator four years to improve on it

>>8838009
He's coded several original games, but that doesn't matter because his "arcade rip-offs" are fucking awesome.