/vr/ - Retro Games

More emphasis on the spectral trumped thoughtful, talented game design.
You can blame the mid-life crisis hack for wanting the series to go in a much darker direction.

>>8816130
Whenever a game has that 'childhood lullaby stars dreamy' atmosphere I call it 'the Kingdom Hearts 1 vibe'

>>8816147
khfags wont stop dickriding the second game and my best guess is it’s entirely due to the data fights because everything else about the game is so much worse than the original

>>8816291
>the data fights
Those didn't even exist in the original game

>>8816308
Yeah I know, the final mix version of the game but that’s the only thing I can think of really

>>8816291
I prefer playing kh2 because it can either be more brainless and fun to breeze through or have more mechanically engaging combat on higher difficulties

Playing through 2 right now for the first time, and I enjoyed 1 much more so far.

Even though there seems to be more worlds, they feel smaller and less interesting, and more disconnected from the plot. Even though there are more combat abilities, it feels like there are too many for the menu system to properly handle and I end up leaning on 1 or 2 spells forever. I really don't like the Forms thing, or the Triangle commands. Feels like some fights are just impossible to win without spamming those.

>>8816130
The fact brainless kids worship KH2 for giving you empty corridors tells you a lot

KH2 is a joke when compared to 1.
The worlds are tunnels of about 6-8 rooms and alot of them are revisits from 1, exvept worse.

>>8816291
>>8816318
That's all they do really, they claim KH2 is the best game ever created because of shitty data fights and muh lv 1 critical, both of which weren't even in the base game.
Now ask them about anything else, the most you will get is troons praising Roxas' walking simulator.
KH2 is literally a hack n slash for the lowest common denominator

Never played these, what kind of game is it?

>>8816939
They're 3d action RPGs.

>>8816130
Disney began to put more resources into child grooming than game dev sadly.

>>8816919
They also tend to want to see all Disney elements removed from the series so that the games are nothing but Nomura’s edgy angstfests. Not improved, not better implemented like in KH1, just completely gone

>>8817029
They are no better than kh fans that hate original stories and just want cheap poorly acted recreations of scenes from licensed disney movies they watched 30 years ago.
Stop fighting both of you are autistic.

>>8817039
>le both sides maymay
There are literally no KH fans like what you just described you disingenuous niggerfaggot

>>8817029
I just wanted Maleficent to take over the edgefest and yet all they did was turn her into team rocket after the first game, you don't even fight her in KH2, it's embarrassing.
>>8817039
>cheap poorly acted recreations of scenes from licensed disney movies they watched 30 years ago.
That's KH2 and on, the first game actually integrated Disney worlds into the story with interesting twists, unlike having what feels like Sora Donald and Goofy watching Let it Go on YouTube.

>>8817043
That's exactly what KH3 is, cheap recreation of scenes from Frozen on the unreal engine.
This a series is for autistic 7 years old, you're 4 times that age.

>>8817054
Literally nobody liked this about KH3 and that’s one of the games most constant criticisms. Stop posting if you’re just going to keep posting dumb shit

>>8817039
Wait isn't that the obnoxious couch guy on your picture? From that meme Tomba 2 GDQ speedrun

>>8817049
>That's KH2 and on, the first game actually integrated Disney worlds into the story with interesting twists,
They never did, none of the disney cameos had any influence on the story whatsoever. They might as well star in their own self contained advertisements because this game is just one big advertisement.

>>8817060
Ok but when will you actually play the game tho

>>8817060
Have you even played the game?

>>8817058
>>8817063
Get away from kids you 40 year old pedophile.

Kill all the pedos.

>>8817039
>>8817075
>>8817079
Notice that you never see fans of the original game doing cringe shit like this

>>8817092
Yeah because they are fans of actual ARPGs and love the idea of traveling through charming Disney worlds, not some shonenshit fags who are into hack n slash. A sane person would rather play DMC, it has better gameplay and is way less bloated with cutscenes and empty hallways and at least it's cringe on purpose

>>8817109
This lol. I never quite understood people acting like KH2’s combat is anything to write home about. The original game’s charm was mainly about exploring the world; the combat was just a novel way to approach this without doing the turn-based thing.

>>8816130
Later games placed more emphasis on combat. While KH2FM is fantastic, that was pretty much the only game in the series where the combat-focused approach really worked (and even then, it didn't work in the vanilla version). So I'm inclined to think it was a mistake on Square's part.

As for atmosphere, it's just really tough to maintain a surreal, mysterious vibe over a series with multiple entries. Eventually you've got to start giving answers, which inherently kills the mystique.

>>8816919
I almost never hear anyone talk about vanilla KH2 as anything spectacular, except insofar as the core combat systems are very well-designed (which is a moot point in vanilla because it's so braindead easy).

Critical Mode is well-balanced all the way through, though. It's absolutely not just because of the Data fights. I'm not sure what standard you're applying to call it "lowest common denominator."

>>8817136
KH2fags stopped worshipping vanilla only after they got their hands into FM, even back in the day you would see schizos calling KH2 "so much better than KH1" while whining about the former having non-linear level design and disney worlds not being "faithful" aka not being rehashes of the movies

>>8817164
the latter*

>>8817164
I remember the complaints about KH1s world design being less linear, can’t fucking believe that became the mainstream opinion in the fan base

Am I the only one who wanted an actual Lilo and Stitch world? Not that shit we got in Birth By Sleep

>>8817173
I blame retarded e-celebs for this, what they dictate online seems to make the minds of kids who watch them
https://youtu.be/EWpt1Zs4QvQ
https://youtu.be/eCFx_wPtQGg
Note that for both videos he's ranking KH1, KH2 and BBS, so this self-proclaimed Roxasfag genuinely believes that there is NO world in KH2 worse than anything in KH1
Lmao

>>8817245
I remember that kind of talk on gaming websites before ecelebs were a thing. KH2 split the fanbase because it went in such a different direction in terms of focus

>>8817164
You're talking out your ass. People were very disappointed with KH2's linear levels and easy combat. Yeah it had its fans and was generally well-liked in its own right, but popular opinion was that KH1 was superior.

Nobody even talked about KH2's battle system having depth to it until FM came out, precisely because there was no incentive to actually experiment with it.

>>8817470
>You're talking out your ass.
I'm not, you just didn't the see the part of the fanbase that i had to endure

>>8817519
If you were specifically on KH message boards, then yeah I would expect it to be filled with people who particularly liked the latest entry. "Neutral" sites that weren't really dedicated to Kingdom Hearts (GameFAQs, Gamespot, etc) were slanted much more toward KH1.

>>8816147
To further expand my point instead of memeing, it's clear they wanted to focus more on the action-y side of things after their experimental combat in KH1, especially the "darker" tone and Nomura's interview about his involvement during development and obsession with Versus 13 at the time, emphasizes that fact. I can't help be think the Enix merger played a role in that as well.

>"The world of Versus XIII might be a little closer to my personal taste than Kingdom Hearts, but the entire project owes something to Kingdom Hearts as well. When I first began KH I was part of the FF core team, and tried to bring elements of that into the development. The KH team was always inspired by FF, and I’d like to see that reversed. But as for the differences between KH and FF, KH is a lighter world of magic, fantasy, and people doing good things. I’ve been in that world for a very long time – perhaps too long."

As for the Disney shit:
I don't remember anyone wanting it out of the picture until KH3's release only because with how retarded the story had become and more focus being put on the Chuni anime OCs, less on the whimsical charm, it'd just be better to ditch Disney entirely since it's clear it was just for backseat marketing and filler after CoM. Even when KH2 released I was always hesitant to replay it because the Disney worlds were so dull compared to KH1 and got in the way of the Organization fights.

>>8817587
*until AFTER KH3's release

>>8817306
What were people's thoughts about CoM at the time? Because that's where the turning point was with the series in terms of story. Combat-wise it was more or less the same with an added gimmick.

Have you fucks seen the new trailer? It's like the third Kingdom Hearts thread in a row with no mention of it whatsoever, really weird

>>8817071
>>8817079
I don't get what prompts people like this to visit this site as if they're powerless window shoppers. Why don't you go to IRC and petition the site's shutdown to the Mods.

>>8817603
CoM was viewed as a side-game. Overall a neat idea for what it was, obviously a fullblown Kingdom Hearts game on the GBA wasn't going to work, so experimentation was given a pass. The story method was assumed to be a self-contained thing and people figured everything would go back to normal for KH2. Instead, Nomura went full retard.

>Kingdom Hearts 1 was released just before the merger of Square and Enix, practically the last big title with 'Squaresoft' in its intro
>Sakaguchi had just left Square when the game was in the finishing stages of development
It's a bittersweet game in a lot of ways. WHEN YOU WALK AWAY

Too much Final Fantasy bullshit in the later games, first game was more whimsical and Disney was more than just a backdrop

>>8817550
>"Neutral" sites that weren't really dedicated to Kingdom Hearts (GameFAQs, Gamespot, etc) were slanted much more toward KH1.
Yeah pretty much, these are usually the older fans as well
Zoomers got filtered hard by KH1's lack of handholding and cried to their parents

>>8816175
So true, man.
Donald's Dreamland in Toontown Online gives me that same feeling.

>>8816130
>>8817939
What do you call this aesthetic?

They cared too much about programming the Gummi Ship collectathon nonsense.

>>8816175
>>8817939
for me it's Dark Hollow from Spyro 1

>>8817962
I fucking love the Gummi ships

>>8817631
Funny, isn't it?
Either they haven't and don't care or they have, but still don't care. I certainly don't.

>>8818220
That's kinda my problem with the game. It's a better shmup than an ARPG.

>>8816291
I've only heard people praise KH2 as superior for gameplay and mechanics. Nothing else really sticks out on the praise wagon.

>>8817631
Trailer made me laugh out loud. We've gone from sora in magical fantasy lands to sora in fucking tokyo. Shit looked like Nomura played spiderman on PS4 and was like YES WE NEED TO MAKE THIS

>>8818330
>Shit looked like Nomura saw [X] and was like YES WE NEED TO MAKE THIS
Watch as it becomes a musical instead. At least Yoko Taro was able to achieve that in the form of a stage play before Nomura.

>>8818330
>Shit looked like Nomura played spiderman on PS4 and was like YES WE NEED TO MAKE THIS
good chance that's exactly what happened

>>8817124
Honestly I think part of it is it actually felt like an improvement to KH1's combat, people were impressed that Sora could do some more fancy moves and while people justifiably criticize the game's reliance on reaction commands they did look pretty flashy. It was like a sign that he had grown more talented since KH1. Drive Forms also were nice options, I thought Valor form was kino the first time I played

>>8817939
>>8817954
>>8817968
Play pic related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt3AlBCqkA8&list=PLP8_sGncyT5TZj5RBb1sBX-JgPKGPN2ix&index=5&ab_channel=SEGA-MAG.com

>>8818330
>from sora in magical fantasy lands to sora in fucking tokyo
I thiink it's just Nomura's TWEWY autism kicking in. Which happened in Dream Drop Distance first and went full force in KH3's DLC or secret ending or whatever I stopped playing after I beat Xehanort

>>8816130
There are too many reasons to list
>the development of KH1 went through a lot of troubles and issues, and there were several times where the project was at the verge of being cancelled, so developers didn't expect the game to succeed and thus they tried to put everything into KH1 (even Another Side, Another Story secret ending is just Nomura planting a few ideas IN CASE the game ever gets a sequel - you can tell how different Deep Dive secret ending is compared to ASAS because Final Mix came out after KH1 ended up being a success)
>Disney didn't place that many restrictions during KH1's development outside of exceptions like "you can use Mickey for only one cutscene in entire game" and selection of worlds (Nomura wanted Toy Story to be in since KH1 but Pixar wasn't a part of Disney yet and they had complicated relationship at the moment), so there was minimum meddling from them - funny enough, KH1 still ended up being a very good example of classic Disney movie
>Nomura wasn't writing the entire plot by himself (it started after KH2 - Days was the first game where Nomura controlled the entire plot), so there were several people who worked on plot of KH1 worlds
>KH1 is 100% fantasy - Nomura's preferences were always "a mix of fantasy and modern" yet there's zero presence of modern in KH1 (outside of ASAS secret ending); the entirety of world selections lacks modern atmosphere (unlike later games with worlds like San Fransokyo, The World That Never Was, Deep Space, the entirety of Data World and now Quadratum)
>KH1 was very experimental, and that applied to world design - too many people complained about platforming and getting lost in KH1, and Nomura decided to listen to them; this could've been fixed by either adding maps or toning down platforming... but Nomura chose BOTH, so you have a bunch of worlds with absolutely zero interaction and plain design, and maps even show you how bland worlds have become

>>8816130
>>8819494
To add a few more:
>event planner of KH1 was Jun Akiyama, and he had fantastic understanding of how to use characters and environment during cutscenes (he worked on Vagrant Story and FFXII, and I can assure you that at least VS' cutscenes still look fantastic thanks to his planning); Akiyama is also a huge Disney fan, and he intentionally asked Nomura to help with writing Tarzan world because it was one of his favourites - he clearly understood the structure of Disney movies and its humour, which is why KH1 cutscenes really feel similar to something being created by Disney
>KH series is Action RPG, but for KH1 RPG is the bigger aspect of it (while for the rest of the series Action is the bigger aspect) - in KH1 your party members do matter and can help you a lot if you gear them properly and manage their AI correctly, but in KH2 they just serve as Limit bots (mostly Donald's for i-frames and free movement) or Form bots (and because they keep dying in 2-3 hits, it gets annoying to time the moment of Form change because very often it becomes unavailable due to dead party members); KH2's skill trees aren't as impactful as KH1's due to the act that you get most of abilities through story progression and not through leveling, so there's much less difference between which weapon you chose at the start of KH2 - it's no surprise that later titles toned down RPG aspect even further (BBS literally had only 2 stats and they were affected only by Keyblade and your level) and went further into Action aspect
>Tech Point system shows that KH1 prefered slower and more tactical approach to combat (like timing your hits to parry / deflect instead of just guarding or using specific magic on enemies to get unusual results, like Gravity on Xemnas - in KH2 I can remember only Pirates world's enemies being heavily affected by magic) compared to KH2's fast and reaction-heavy approach (Revenge Value system and Reaction Commands are the proof of it)

>>8819494
>too many people complained about platforming and getting lost in KH1, and Nomura decided to listen to them; this could've been fixed by either adding maps or toning down platforming... but Nomura chose BOTH, so you have a bunch of worlds with absolutely zero interaction and plain design, and maps even show you how bland worlds have become
I hate zoomers so much

>>8819705
The funny thing is that he actually brought back platforming and environment interaction in Final Mix with Cavern of Remembrance (and handheld games like BBS and DDD also had some platforming and environment interaction, even if it wasn't on par with KH1).

>>8819762
DDD was an improvement with the vertical dimension, some chests were carefully hidden

>>8817029
I’d rather have that than KH3, which was 95% Disney with the actual plot being entirely disconnected and shoved into the last two hours of the game. I agree a mix like on KH1 would be best, where the Disney worlds tend to advance the plot in some matter.

I liked kingdom hearts because it was a fun action RPG that took elements from final fantasy, and put them in Disney worlds.
It was funny to see Donald and goofy on screen next to cloud and sephiroth, and the game was fun and well made to boot

Unfortunately as time went on it’s become more and more of Nomuras bass ackward stories funded and advertised by completely out of place random Disney crossovers.

On the one hand, I do enjoy the KH mythos and lore to an extent. But I feel the focus should be less on that.

KH3 doesn’t have anything final fantasy, it’s so weird. Dream drop distance has you run around a tron legacy world. 2 already did tron- and it was cool and interesting. DDD is a bad minigame buffering awkwardly recreated scenes from a movie Disney really wanted to do better than it did.

KH2’s tron world was about exploring a universe that happened to be set up by a movie. DDD was about being an ad for a movie that happened to be in theaters.

Maybe that doesn’t make sense idk

I just miss when the final fantasy / Disney crossover was the main point of the series. And not just the backdrop for weird nomura stories and advertising reasons.

>>8819901
>I’d rather have that than KH3, which was 95% Disney with the actual plot being entirely disconnected and shoved into the last two hours of the game.
Honestly too much of anything is awful, look at 358/2 Days, 95% of it is edgelord square enix faggotry and 5% Disney which is just filler

>>8817637
This is pretty consistent with how people generally viewed CoM, but I've always held it in high regards in terms of storytelling. It managed to expand on the story while still retaining a lot of the surrealism and mystery of the first game. "The Organization" is extremely enigmatic while still presenting an escalation in threat, Castle Oblivion is an inherently strange place, and Namine messing with Sora's head leads to some pretty dark moments. It wasn't *until* KH2 that the story started getting ridiculous, but if the series managed to hang on to the tone set by KH1 and CoM, I think it would've turned out way better.

>>8819494
I'll also add that Square in 2002 and Square in 2005 were two very different companies. In many ways, KH1 was one of the last gasps of classic Squaresoft magic and imagination that we got so much of in the 90s. And those changes only became more pronounced in later years.

>>8819705
play the Tarzan world, for God's sake. KH1 is shit. Its gameplay (the only thing that counts in a videogame) is shit. People with a functioning brain want an actual smooth action rpg experience. Also, the original worlds in kh1 were way better than the Disney ones. Fuck off.

>>8820502
>play the Tarzan world
Soul.
You're one of these mindless retards who watched e-celebs bashing on this world aren't you? Nice personality.

>>8819705
>I hate zoomers so much
I don't think this had anything to do with ZoomZooms, mate...

>>8820502
It's really not that bad, and it's the only World that I'd call subpar in KH1. I honestly can't wrap my head around getting lost in any of the other levels except maybe Hollow Bastion.

>>8820528
Not that guy, but Tarzan world didn't seem that memorable. I wouldn't call it shitty, that's Underwater World.
I played the series a few years ago without any influence from eceleb fags or "muh childhood" types.

>>8819915
>And not just the backdrop for weird nomura stories and advertising reasons.
IDK what worlds Disney and Square would bother adding at this point, besides Marvel and Star Wars, that would make this next saga worth a damn and attract more players because the way I see it, very few KHfags give a shit about Disney/Pixar anymore besides kids and Millennial adultbabies.

I just don't think KH4 and onward will have any of the hype it once did with fans and free marketing from e-celebs for normalfags on the level of when KH3 was about to release.

because it's an action RPG not Super Mario 64

>>8820649
I love both these worlds, the weakest world in KH1 is Monstro, although the story is good

>>8821074
Marvel/Star Wars alone will carry KH for the next couple games.

You're delusional if you think millennials wouldn't eat that shit up and KH4 won't be the most profitable game yet.

>>8821509
This guy actually played KH1 recently. Monstro is boring compared to everything before it and especially boring compared to what comes after.

>>8821509
>>8821875
>Monstro is boring compared to everything before it
So boring I forgot it existed. I take that back, Monstro is the shit world, not Tarzan or Under the Sea.

I played the first and 3rd game in these and found them pretty fucking terrible.

First of all consider these are the same genre as games like DmC. The fact that you level up doesn't suddenly make it entirly different genre. When you realize that it's easy to see how shitty these are. Just compare the combat to any other DmC-like. A lot of the moves are auto-matted so there's very little thinking involved. The move-kit is terrible even compared to the first DmC (aka the literal start of the genre. That's like making a platformer that's shallow compared to Donky Kong) where you are given like 2 dozen moves and they all have a place and purpose. You pretty much just mash X in Kingdom hearts, sometimes you have to jump to hit an arial enemy. You can shoot magic I guess although with it's long animation it doesn't flow well with the rest of combat.

The adventure and JRPG elements really don't seem to add anything. You can stockpile potions to cheese stuff or watch numbers go up. The platforming and puzzles are both easy and short. They don't really add anything or subtract anything they are just sort of there. Ok sometimes I have to jump from one stationary platform to another? Or find which NPC to talk to. Not really interesting.

I think it's a game people play for the cutscenes and the graphics. Which seems pretty standard for square somewhere between the 4th and 5th generation totally lots the ability to do anything other then make cutscenes and pretty graphics.

>>8821905
>First of all consider these are the same genre as games like DmC
Your first point and already wrong. Not reading the rest lmao

>>8821761
I'm willing to eat my own words if I'm wrong.
With the way things are going, Marvel is all but relevant in terms of film while TV can only carry it so far. Same goes for Star Wars, but its reputation is in the dirt after the Nu Trilogy while it's desperately trying to stay relevant with its TV spin-offs. I doubt anyone'll care other than KHfags since they're the only ones hyping up KH at this point.

>>8821905
>first and 3rd game
By 3rd do you mean Kingdom Hearts II or Kingdom Hearts III?

>>8816130
My conspiracy theory with KH2 is that they really wanted to make the combat flashier (with a bunch of particle effects everywhere), but the PS2 didn't have enough memory, so they had to really simplify the level geometry and remove most of the interactive elements. Either that or they got complaints from players about KH1's level design so they just decided to remove the level design altogether.

>>8821905
Kingdom Hearts 1 came out less than a year after DMC1. The influence of DMC1 on KH1 was probably non-existent. DMC1 was not the start of 3D action genre by any means (there's plenty of action games on PS1 no one remembers), it just did a lot of things right. KH1 was probably influenced by Ocarina of Time and Super Mario 64 more than anything else. So the Donkey Kong analogy doesn't make sense.
Comparison-wise, it's true DMC1 has a deeper moveset. However KH1 does have some advantages. There's way more content, including enemies types and boss fights. It's more exploration focused. There's party members. The camera isn't fixed, which has some disadvantages, but gave the player a lot more control and allowed for more open/sprawling combat encounters. And yes there's more story and more expensive-looking cutscenes.
The RPG elements aren't as deep as a CRPG but they do help sustain the game's length by adding more progression. You can explore and complete optional content to get new keyblades, abilities, equipment, spell upgrades, etc. DMC1 has some light exploration but nowhere near the amount of side content.
And honestly I prefer KH1's boss fights. Nelo Angelo is good (when you're not fighting the camera), and Phantom and Griffon aren't bad, but Nightmare and Mundus are terrible. KH1 has a few stinkers like Oogie 2 and Ursula 2 but there's some great ones like Riku, Ansem 2, Kurt Zisa, and Sephiroth. KH1 feels more expansive and generally more polished than DMC1 even if the moveset is more braindead. KH1 even has tech EXP which rewards you for good play, somewhat like the style meter.
Anyways, I like both games.

>>8822036
Here's an example of a PS1 action game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOOfZPWwczw

>>8821935
How is he wrong? Indulge me, because I don't see anything his said that was wrong.

>>8816130
I prefer the level design of one but the physics and fight style of 2. It's a good thing 3 came out so we don't have to argue about which mainline game is the worst

>>8817049
>I just wanted Maleficent to take over the edgefest and yet all they did was turn her into team rocket after the first game, you don't even fight her in KH2, it's embarrassing.
same man, same. I was hype for pete on the back of the box & its a good role for him but I wanted the movie villains to be a big threat until the final boss like the first game.

i just started the first game. chose the hard difficulty and the game is such a laugh with the weird kiddy story combined with brutal level of challenge. forces me to take it all seriously

>>8822056
That game was garbage

>>8817954
Cartoon, dumbass.

>>8823003
Original Expert Mode or Final Mix Proud? As much as I love KH1 I've never actually played it on hard

>>8821935
>>8822084
So you're just another drive-by nigger poster that doesn't know what he's saying.
Gotcha'.

>>8823223
FM proud.

>>8823006
Yep, point is though that DMC1 did not start the 3D action genre.
Arguably Ocarina of Time did, because of how influential its lock-on mechanic was.

>>8825309
Sword of Berserk did the DMC genre prototype better imo

>>8825309
Real time 3D action goes back to the 70s. Albiet it was first person. Forget the name, one of the early PC RPGs. The first majorly commercially successful 3D melee game was Ultima Underworld in 1992.

DmC is important because it's the model everything is based on. Zelda's only real contribution was the use of lock on.

It's not really an exegeration to say that 99% of good 3rd person 3D melee games are DmC clones.