/vr/ - Retro Games

Might and Magic 3 is my favorite & it has a great automap. Check it out, Arcana is a pretty crappy game compared to it.

Automap for these kinds of games is a godsend. I usually love writing down game-related clues and info in an 'adventure notebook', but when I tried playing Legend of Grimrock on 'oldschool' (no automap) mode, it was just tedious as hell to draw down shit almost every 4 steps.

I was having a lot of fun with Might and Magic 2, writing down information I found, mapping everything out. Eventually I got tired with the lack of information in certain parts.

King yells 'FIND MY SON'. Well, that's great. How about some more info? Someplace you think he *might* be? Some backstory into his kidnapping/running away from home/who knows what? Anything.

The only retro first person dungeon crawler I played was Shining in the Darkness, when I did a Shining series playthrough a couple years ago.
It was really entertaining, and my first game in the genre.

I'll just throw the obvious choices out there: Shin Megami Tensei series, Wizardry series, Phantasy Star 1, Sega CD Eye of the Beholder (stay away from the other ports), Ultima Underworld.

>>874002
>stay away from the other ports
I played the DOS version, is it really that bad compared to it?

>>874005
lol, the DOS version is the original. Nothing wrong with it.

>>874009
Oh, right.
By the way, Sega CD is the one with the music, right? I listened to the soundtrack on youtube and though it was great.

>>874015
Yep, IIRC it's from that one dude.. uh.. I think Yuzo Koshiro. I think he did music for the Ys series and the Etrian Oddysey series too, he's apparently a really good music guy.

>>874005
I was thinking of console ports.
I still think that sega cd port is the best for the soundtrack alone.

I've never been able to figure out what anyone likes about these sorts of RPGs.

>>874086

Running around, beating up monsters and taking their loot. The core of D&D from the beginning.

Japan's Elminage series are pretty nice Wizardry clones but they're only "retro" in a design sense. Definitely better than the actual PSN Wizardry (Labyrinth of Lost Souls etc.) games at least, save for artwork.

>>874086
Above-average difficulty, party customization, and off-beat visuals are bare requirements for the genre, things I value greatly in RPGs. Not that they're inherently good at them, but they're a genre I can always rely on to find these elements.

>>874114
That's all well and good, but it's the awful perspective that ruins it for me. Do people just like the first-person for being more immersive?

>>874116
>Elminage

Oh yeah, absolutely. Elminage Original it's even better now with the enhancement patch they released.

>>874120

A lot of classic CRPGs followed the first-person perspective and many games have played on it since. I guess it's to help feeling immersed after all, like you're really trudging through an underground dungeon.

>>874128
I like it because it immersive and tends to look good. It's a genre I'm pretty conflicted about. In one hand losing myself in dungeon again for hours while listening to atmospheric music and killing monsters sounds amazing but nowadays my short attention span often makes that less likely to happen.

>>873680

Oh man. That game. I bought it complete-in-box from a Play n' Trade a while back for $5. I thought, "Oh man! $5 for a CIB game? Even if it's bad, that's totally worth it!"

I gave that game a long time to win me over. It's just so...boring! And I have a really high tolerance for grindy RPGs, too. Every screen in the dungeons looks the god damn same! Navigating without a map would be impossible, so it's nice that the game gives you a map screen to help you out, but you can't scroll the map around to look at the whole dungeon. You can only see the areas right around where you currently are. What gives? Does the main character have a map or doesn't he? Also, the fact that once you beat a dungeon, you can NEVER go back to that part of the game again makes the whole thing feel so confined. It's possible to totally screw yourself if you get to a new area and aren't strong enough to fight the enemies there, because you CAN'T go back to a previous area to grind on those weaker monsters.

Ugh...All those wasted hours giving Arcana a chance...

Can anyone tell me what game this is?

>>874414
WELL SHIT IT'S THE DARK SPIRE FOR NINTENDO DS, I AM SURE AM RETARDED FOR NOT USING REVERSE IMAGE SEARCH EARLIER

Is it any good?

>>874373
Etrian Odyssey IV won me over pretty recently. I played it for hours on end like I never play games anymore. It was nice.

I should go back and play some older first-person dungeon crawlers now and see if they grab me more than they did when I was younger.

>>873985
>How do you feel about auto-mapping?

Games like Shining had the right kind of auto-map.

>no map at the start
>automap is working in the background but it is hidden
>the automap is revealed when you eat a wisdom seed
>eventually you get a spell that also displays the map

So at least part of the game requires you to develop a sense of direction and at least beat the first dungeon or two blindly.

Maps are earned, not freely given. This is fair.

I drew a lot of maps on grid paper in the 1980s and early 1990s, but it was hard in some games.

>Rotating floor tiles (and no compass)
Rotating rooms (East door is now the north door)
>teleporter tiles
>infinite loop hallways
>looping maps (like pac man.. room at right side of the map is linked to room at left side of map)

Spinning rooms were the absolute worst.

>>874471
Ah, games that require drawing maps and/or taking notes. Both the best and most frustrating element of a truly great retro game.

>>874424
>Is it any good?
It has a great visual style and music, also it's portable.
The gameplay is pretty fun but the really obscure puzzles, random battles (with annoying and slow screen transitions like a JRPG) and simplicity in character development (compared to Wizardry) and lack of features are disappointing for a modern release.
Get it if you want a portable Wizardry clone, otherwise just play Wizardry 6.

>>873976
There is a clue to his location somewhere in a dungeon below a town I think.

But it doesn't tell you where Amazon Countryis. They are located just south east of Alantium, you have to fight some Amazons to free them.

>>874397
I'm actually enjoying it. The thing with the map is a little retarded but it's better than nothing. Maybe I'll get sick of it later.
Then again, playing on an emulator also gives me the benefit of being able to speed the game up.

>>874430
I could never get into Etrian Odyessy. You should give some of these games a try. Some of them have turn based systems kind of like Etrian Odyessy.

>>874446
That does sounds interesting. That way you can get mas easily by the time you actually need them, rather than use one right at the first dungeon.

>ctrl-f dungeon master
>no results
You disappoint me, /vr/.

>>877114
Fun game, incredibly frustrating to map.

Just finished world of xeen this week, truly a great game. I absolutely love the might and magic series, currently playing through ultima 1 though

what games from the mght and magic series stand up to xeen?

Wizardry 8. People rag on it all the time, but I think it's easily the most enjoyable in the series.

>>878761
I like 2 and 6 the best so far, but I haven't played 7 or beyond. 3 is decent too.

I have a question. What weapon am I supposed to give my sylphs?

Dark Heart of Uukrul is a really great dungeon crawler. Has a fun Ultima-style tactical battle system too.

>>878784
Only extreme nostalgiafags rag on it, for not playing like a "true Wizardry game"(despite the fact that Wiz 6 and 7 already had more in common with M&M1-2 than Wiz1-5). Most consider it a great game, though the level scaling and slow combat (fixable) are generally maligned.
>>879250
Seconding this guy. 2 and 6 are the absolute best. 7 and onwards is a downward slope.

>>873934
I have all of the M&M games. Should I play them chronologically or in some specific order?

>>881262
>chronologically
God, no. Start with either M&M6 or World of Xeen (4&5). Play 1-2 among the last.

>>881287
Thanks, are they somehow related to each other? Are they story oriented at all?

>>881295
They take place in the same universe, but almost always on different planets. The overarching story of the M&M games is pretty much a clusterfuck that doesn't make too much sense even after playing all of them and from 6 onwards ties heavily to the Heroes of Might & Magic series too; so I wouldn't stress too much with cherrypicking a starting point from a story standpoint. With that said however, it's sort of a staple of the M&M series that the general base story is repeated in each game - you roam the world completing tasks and after some time you start coming up to a big revelation, a revelation that applies to every M&M game basically.

>>881327
Thank you very much for typing that for me.

I'm currently playing Wizardry 5. It's a fucking obnoxious game that doesn't just punish bad decisions (like it should), but also punishes you for making wise decisions (balls to that).

I scootch up my chair close to the TV and play it with my SNES's reset button at arm's length.

>>874471

You forgot the hot dog stand on that floor.

>>881548
>I'm currently playing Wizardry 5. It's a fucking obnoxious game that doesn't just punish bad decisions (like it should), but also punishes you for making wise decisions (balls to that).
Basically Wizardry in a nutshell. The series is notorious for being dickish like that; forces you to overthink every decision you make several times though while pissing you off at the same time. Although it got much more manageable from Wiz 6 onwards since you can savescum.

>>874397
Fuck you buddy. Arcana (or Card Master if you're not a faggot) is a great fucking game.
And there's no grind in it at all. You can complete the entire game without grinding once.

>>879828
The 4 spirits can't use equipment. You're supposed to have them use spells since their HP/MP regens as you walk.

>>881564

It's not save "scumming" if the game is designed intentionally to allow you to Just Save.

Also, that's not why Wizardry 6+ was better. Wizardry 6 and 7 were good because David Bradley had 100% full creative control and, better yet, he was an actual game developer who had prior experience in developing RPGs in the tabletop world. Unlike Wizardry 5, he wasn't held back by Greenberg's orthodoxy.

By comparison, Greenberg and Woodhead were lawyers by trade and made the Wizardry games on-the-side. They were always lawyers. Lawyers, by their very nature, are people who possess a very limited capacity in creative thinking and storytelling ability.

That said, Wizardry 1-5 were basically D&D fan-games, whose stat/combat systems were altered heavily enough to not get in legal hot water with TSR.

Wizardry 6-8 were the games where Wizardry truly became unto its own. I dream someday that David W. Bradley and Brenda Romero (who was responsible for Wizardry 8) some day, by chance, bump into each other in an elevator, chat it up, and decide to make a new RPG together. That would be a great game.

>>881593
Wasn't Brenda just responsible for world design and three other guys were actually involved with making the rest?
Also, Wiz 6+ aren't "better" in every way per se like you're suggesting. From a narratological stance yes, but they've also removed quite a bit of what made Wiz 1-5 unique among its peers, most notably they've confined you into the role of the six characters you make at the beginning and guide through the game, instead of acting as a "manager" of over a dozen heroes that you can also station over the dungeon or send on rescue missions to retrieve back their less fortunate peers.

>>881619

So you're more invested in the six party members who you see through the entirety of 6, 7, and 8, while characters you make in 1-3&5 are ultimately forgettable pawns.

>>881687
That's not correct though. If you're lucky enough, you might get to see your Wiz 1 party in Wiz 2 and 3 too. I'd even say that there's an even bigger emotional investment involved since the characters are so precious and easy to lose despite requiring so much patience to build up.

What was the name of that Saturn game where all the sprites were super sexy looking and amazingly animated?

>>883993
From your description, sounds like the average japanese Saturn exclusive

>>873680
>Arcana

I played the shit out of it for a long time. Every time I'd go rent a game, if it was there, I grabbed it.

What are some fastpaced dungeon crawlers for the snes aside from the SMT series?

>>884321
Wizardry: Story of Llylgamyn

As someone who's never played this variety of RPG before (the closest I got is the TES series, and that's only from Morrowind onwards) what's a good game to start with to introduce me to it?

>>884364
Might & Magic series, definitely. Especially since you're arriving in from TES. Start with M&M6 or World of Xeen (the latter is tile-based, so it's a good introduction to tile based dungeon crawlers)
After that, Dungeon Master 1 and 2.
Make sure to avoid Wizardry for now.

Does System Shock count?

>>884357
Thanks, I will give it a try!

>>884379
I'd call that a FPS. Ultima Underworld was already pushing it, and System Shock went even further into the action territory over the RPG part.

>>878631
I'm in the fifth level or so, don't see a need to map yet, it's pretty simple.

>>873680
I was never all that big on first person dungeon crawlers, I suppose one of the simplest but straight forward ones I used to play was Dungeon Hack. It's nothing special I suppose, kind of a rudimentary by the book AD&D based dungeon crawl. Which quite frankly I'd is probably a good reason to avoid it since D&D let alone AD&D have pretty shitty battle systems and that's like 80% of the game.
It does do automapping though.

>>884413
But Dungeon Hack's battle system has nothing to do with D&D. It's an actiony "real time dungeoncrawler" style in the vein of Dungeon Master, except you control only a single character instead of four.

>>884419
Not sure if this half-elf barbarian is bluffing or just has a negative int modifier.

>>884463
Are we talking about the same Dungeon Hack here?

>>884480
I don't know about you, but I'm talking about SSI's (the official CRPG developer for D&D games) dungeon hack, based IN the AD&D world of Forgotten fuckin Realms that uses thac0 based mechanics with similar damage reduction and ability score modification, weapons, with spell memorization for spells given from ad&d, with armor restrictions, race/class, multiclassing, leveling more or less the same as AD&D and roughly same weapon damages.

So, yeah if you're talking about that one, yeah, NOTHING like AD&D.

>>884498
Noting that SSI is the publisher in this case.

>>884408
There's no REAL need to map. I just feel like I have to map everything whenever I play a first person dungeon crawler. Even if most of the time you can get what you want by running around mapping can be a real life saver in some games.

>>884498
Except for the simple yet crucial fact that the game is REAL TIME. And you control a single character. And there's little strategical positioning or anything of that sort. No attacks of opportunity, no grappling, etc. You're talking about the mechanics behind the damage calculations, not about the battle system itself.

>>884558
So basically in short, you're wrong as fuck and are making excuses.
Did you hear anyone say it was exactly the same game as the books? No. And every fucking CRPG in existence has to make some leeway for the fact that they aren't as versatile as pen and paper.

>And you control a single character.
Why are you even bringing that up, fuck for a second time. AD&D, you almost always control a single fucking character. Only CRPGs do you ever really do more than one character and there's a gigantic fucking reason for that, because they aren't typically multiplayer games. Unless you're a fucking DM.

Yes, I'm talking about the battle system, not the battle system itself.

It's AD&D, get over it. But yes, it has absolutely nothing to do with it, at all. Nothing. Please, move your retarded as shit goal post even further if possible.

>>884364
World of Xeen or Albion

>>884586
Who's moving goalposts here? It doesn't have combat like fucking AD&D. It doesn't feel like AD&D. It's twitch based, not tactics based. If you think that doesn't matter, then fuck, does every D&D licenced game play like AD&D now?

>>884602
Oh my bad, it plays exactly like warhammer 40k. Sorry I confused the two.

I know this is not quite /vr/ related by a year or so, but the rest of the series is. I've pirated M&M9 as the last game of the series I haven't played yet, expecting a complete disaster like the rest of the internet had led me to believe it is. So I played it for a while, but what's this? Is it... fun that I'm having? Rushed as fuck or not, the new engine is actually somewhat nifty (provided that the patches are applied) and the combat strikes me as actually more visceral than in the last 3 entries. So what is it that's still so detested about it, barring the bugs? (many of worst of which were already fixed)

>>884945

apparently, the fan-made patch fixes a lot of issues, but i have avoided mm9 so far.

>>884623
>>884602
>>884586
>>884558
>>884498

The only computer D&D game that felt like a proper D&D title was Temple of Elemental Evil.

>>885716
Have you never played the goldbox games?

>>885763

The ones full of systemic inaccuracies?

>>885763
They aren't real D&D games, you can't grapple.