/vr/ - Retro Games

No

>>8726449
I thought the boulder was a petrified nokonoko

That's the equivalent of having a puzzle but telling you the answer beforehand. What's the point?
Looking for secrets just becomes an item check, which takes away from the sense of adventure, which was the whole point in the first place.

Better, but only for mandatory items. Optional extras can be fully hidden.

>>8726497
It isn't a puzzle if you have no information to go on. That's just guesswork.

>>8726497
>puzzle
>systematically bombing every single wall in the game

If you're going to have tells, they should be vague. Not a great big "BOMB HERE" crack. More like one pixel being off, or contextual clues like a small pile of rubble near to the wall, a statue pointing you to the direction of the wall, a circle of flowers.

>>8726505
>>8726507
So what are you getting out of the experience? What is the satisfaction of bombing an incredibly obviously signposted wall? You may as well just not have the bombs and not have the hidden walls. You can just have a door, and then you wont have to think at all.

>>8726513
why even play video games

why do anything

nothing matters

*tips fedora*

>>8726508
and yet the actually good zelda games that came later all have giant cracks on the walls telling you where to bomb

how interesting

>>8726508
This is the ideal way to do it, but it's not always possible.
If you can't place a clue that is subtle, an obvious clue is better than no clue.

>>8726513

Surely it must been exciting to be stuck in the tame for weeks, if not months, until you randomly place a bomb on some random wall out of 10,000 other possible locarions.

>>8726515
Nigga, you stepped to me.
What is it that does it for you? Is it the little jingle that makes you feel you did something, even though you didn't?

>>8726517
Because Nintendo thinks you're an idiot. Don't encourage them. That's how we got Skyward Sword.

>>8726527
>valuing your time so little that you bomb every single wall in the game is the opposite of idiocy

???

>>8726519
Don't agree. If it's something you don't really need like a weapon upgrade, the more secret the better,

>>8726513
What are you getting out of the experience? There's no accomplishment if the bombable walls are completely random. It's just a fluke if you win.

>>8726532
The thrill of finding something that was hidden, and the promise of yet more to find.

To be fair, Zelda 1 indicated what to bomb/burn by making them suspicious in various ways, at least for the first quest. Not to say that every suspicious object could be destroyed, but it narrowed down the pool massively.

>>8726534
I'm sure you enjoy the thrill of finding hidden jackpots in a slot machine.

>>8726538
Gambling is fun, yes. That's why people do it.

why are zoomers so filtered by having to use their brains? how do they proceed in life without having irl indicators?

>>8726508
>one pixel being off
that's literally just "massive crack in the wall" but in the most stupid implementation imaginable

>>8726541
No, because you have to look carefully. Your eye might pass over it at a glance. It still takes a certain element of player involvement.

>>8726545
a visual cue is a visual cue, it's just an extremely retarded visual cue and also one that punishes players for not emulating on an HD display

>>8726549
The fact that it's very easy to miss is why it's fun.

>>8726554
Moreover, if you miss it then it's your fault. Rewarding perceptiveness is fun.

>>8726540
Explain the thought process of bombing a wall that is the same as any other. Show your working.

>>8726554
>easy to miss
How would it be easy to miss? That's dumb. You would see it at a glance in a repetitive field of identical tiles.

>>8726563
Your eye might pass over it if you weren't paying attention, or you might write it off as being insignificant background detail.

Why is no one posting screenshots of these "really obvious if you're not dumb" walls?

>just change 1 pixel bro
>on a console meant to be played over rf

>>8726572
You can still see the pixels. The cross on Link's shield is one pixel wide. You think people couldn't make that out on an old TV?

>>8726575
>has never played a real NES on a real consumer television

>>8726572
It's really easy to see where there's a difference in a repeating pattern if you're paying attention. Even if it's smudged and smeared you'll notice it.

>>8726578
Post a screenshot.

>>8726576
Can you or can you not make out the cross?

>>8726578
confirmed has never seen rf video

>>8726558
>zoomie mad
SAD! Use your brain zoom-kun

kek I have my C64 hooked up to a TV over RF because my monitor died and I can't even read the text

>>8726586
There is a bombable wall in this image. Without using memory of you bombing it, either by luck, or walkthrough, tell me your working out that it should be bombed.
"It's different!" Is it? Show me the difference.

>>8726593
>he so mad

>>8726591
You don't have to be able to read a letter to be able to tell if two letters are different.

>>8726449
Imagine being this shit at a game that I beat when I was 7 years old. Pathetic display OP

>>8726593
Pretty sure it's on that rock in the middle, because it stands out. I'd try there first, anyway. That's me engaging with the game's mechanics and having fun in the process. Being shown where to bomb is nothing. It's not even a game at that point.

Zelda randomizer adds a visual indicators to destroyable walls and bushes because they recognize the fact that people can't be expected to waste a dozen hours on every seed looking for hidden entrances.

>>8726594
You've been called out and have no alternative other than to lash out angrily.
>>8726598
It's actually the one to the far right. The question then becomes "if the one that looks different isn't important, why will the one that looks the same as any other be important?"
And if "bombing walls is "engaging with the game's mechanics" then bombing literally every wall in the game is also, at which point it's just attrition, like solving a number puzzle by trying every single available number. If the solution to the puzzle is 236 you didn't "solve it" by trying 001, 002, 003, etc.

>>8726505
The game gives you clues to the secrets necessary for completing the game. The rest is bonus stuff. None of this is a problem because 80's gamers weren't zero IQ retards who needed 5 button prompts on the screen at all times and arrows telling you where to go.

>>8726605
>zoomer troons need to make their ADHD games easier
no surprise there

>>8726593
Not him, but most times there's an object in the right in the middle of an overworld like that, it's bombable. You may have to feel around for it but it's there. The exception is when there's two similar rocks on the same screen.

>>8726606
Did I hurt your feefees?

>>8726606
You can try to break it down all you like. The point of having a secret in a game is that it's secret, and it's fun to find a secret, because you found a secret. You found something that maybe most people who played the game didn't find, and that makes it special. Making every secret obvious is stupid. It defeats the entire point.

OH NO NO NO NO

BOOMERS NEED HELP MAKING BOOM BOOM

>>8726618
You wouldn't even be able to notice that on a typical consumer CRT television over composite video.

>>8726618
That's why it's one of the worst aged games in the series. They had already significantly dumbed down the formula, but they hadn't built up the storytelling strengths, and the kind of personality quirks the later games are known for, so you're left with a lot of nothing.

>>8726620
lol

>>8726623
>damage control intensifies

>>8726631
You wouldn't even be able to notice that on the original Game Boy dot matrix LCD.

>>8726631
Yeah, Link's Awakening has characters and personality quirks that people remember. You go into Links dreams, and fight against Kirby monsters. You get a pet chain chomp that eats bad guys. That gives it some flavor, but that doesn't mean the overly telegraphed walls aren't lame there too.

>>8726575
nigga wtf are you talking about?
don't post here again for one year

>>8726641
"You can't see the pixels on an old TV" is an idiotic meme. Yes you can. Otherwise you literally wouldn't be able to see the graphics.

>>8726535
There's only one thing you need to destroy in the first quest as far as I'm aware and it's the bush that leads to Level 8.
But yeah, the fact that the game makes you start bombing random ass places in second quest is horrible. How could anyone know? The ones in first quest are secrets and while they are stupid, that's infinitely more reasonable than doing that for progression.

>>8726618
Thats not for a bomb, sword dash perhaps

>>8726640

>>8726654
These are all games that made concessions for babies, yes. Have I not made myself clear?
Although at least in the 3D games there's an element of having to move the camera around and look for the walls with cracks.

>>8726637
Bullshit

I think it's safe to say that the consensus is yes, the walls and shrubbery should have been indicated.

would a random moblin really be capable of crafting a fake wall that looked natural to the point of deceiving even Link's elven eyes?

>>8726612
Not him, but shut the fuck up, you obnoxious cunt. If you want to act like you're 12, go back to /v/ with all the other 12 year olds.

>>8726662
quick, build a time machine so you can go back and inform morimoto before his mistake ruins nintendo!

>>8726679
>morimoto
Iron Chef and lead developer of multiple legendary Nintendo game franchises, is there anything this man can't do?

>>8726606
>It's actually the one to the far right.

Why are some people so dead set on artificial difficulty in a game where you have infinite lives?

>>8726701
Because the death count goes up and hurts their feelings

zelda but you have 1 life and the entire game randomizes when you die

>>8726449
>>8726497
>>8726513
>>8726534
>>8726539
You are the kind of retard that killed Point & Click games. Instead of making the games more interactable, with more layered plotting and story structure with more varied styles of gameplay, you are the among the jack-ass developers that thought it would be a good idea to latch on to the aspects everybody despised about them, and instead decided to make them more prominent.

IE, more obscure puzzles, even more walking-deadman states, and among the silliest of stories and plotting because "hur hur, comedy good"

>>8726712
I like adventure game puzzles though. The only thing I don't really like is how easy it is to brute force them by using everything on everything. If your tools have limited uses, like bombs, you're more inclined to think about where to place them, and not just try them on every wall.
And if anything it was games like Metal Gear Solid that finally killed of the point and click adventure, because people who hated the puzzles just started playing those games to get their narrative experiences.

>kill thousands of monsters
>break one's door
>he somehow extorts hundreds of rupees out of you for repairs

???

The young generation can not comprehend that players can have a different mentality than theirs.

This must be hard to understand for someone fed on on screen objectives, corridor gameplay and other flows of text and voices telling you what to do for every step you take in the game, but looking for secrets used to be the norm for players. It was expected of a game to have secrets, ESPECIALLY an adventure game, and expected to look for them
>b-b-but it's not a secret it's mandatory to progress!
Same thing, it's an adventure game, this was part of the adventure genre mechanics. You look for stuff and experiment, and you tend to do that before you even get stuck.

Players expected this and loved this, and then shared their experience whatever way they could (tell other kids, send a letter to magazines for the tips section, etc)

This is not bad game design (many would argue it's the contrary) but a generational gap and your inability to put yourself into other people's minds and in the mindset of another time.

Here are two examples from the same game, Duck Tales 2. These two are not required to "beat" the game but they are required to unlock the final level and the best ending, because you see, spoilers, you were expected to look for secrets.
In this example you have to break this wall and the only clue is the fact that this is a reference to another secret in the first game. I had not played the first game and had no trouble finding this when I was 10.

the same developers changed it in the sequels that's an admission that it was a mistake

>>8726738
Second example, the piece of map is located in a secret within a secret within a secret. Again, no trouble whatsover to find this at the age of 10.

>>8726739
By this logic pretty much every single retro gameplay mechanic are mistakes since modern games abide by their own rules

>>8726739
It's an admission that they look down on their players.

>>8726740
>pretty much every single retro gameplay mechanic are mistakes

>>8726742
So you just come to a retro gaming board to get mad at people for liking things you don't?

>>8726740
>>8726738
walking in front of the status bar is kino

>>8726739
>>8726741
And they did

>>8726745
the only mad person here is you, blog poster-chan ;^)

>>8726740
>>8726738
tl;dr you can't perform in a game at the age of 20 what we did at the age of 10 due to spoonfeeding, but don't worry there are things your generation is better at than us. Such as this tick&tock thing, instagram, and caring for the environment.

>>8726749
I'm having a fun conversation. I don't know what you're getting out of this. I'm sure you think you're "epic trolling", but it's kind of weak, to be honest.

>>8726752
>conversation
you unsolicited posted a manifesto that nobody is going to bother reading and then started calling people mad for not sharing your opinion

you're not just mad, you're butt mad ;^)

>>8726754
I'm not that poster. Multiple people can think you're stupid.

>>8726756

Cryptic shit in this game I don't like is bad.
Cryptic shit in this game I like is good.
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

>>8726449
They're supposed to be secrets, not fundamental to the game.
If I'm making a game and I want the player to find something. I'll indicate it.
But maybe I just want to put in the equivalent of an Easter egg that only I know about or some people will randomly stumble upon. I'll do that. It's fun.

>2D Final Fantasy game
>have to walk into every wall because it might be fake

10/10 9001 IQ puzzle

The virgin wall cracks
Vs
The chad sword hit noise change

>>8726775
Anon, a secret is not necessarily a puzzle. Hiding something for the sake of hiding it is not a puzzle.

>>8726808
Have fun walking into walls. Please buy our guidebook, it only costs as much as the game itself.

>>8726810
You know you don't have to find everything?

imagine defending the worst design choices in gaming history

>>8726517
>anime post is always the worst post
Every time.

>>8726823
No one's defending Fi.

>>8726521
If you get stuck in Zelda 1 for literally months you probably need to kys because you have incurable brain trauma.

>>8726824
>The Legend of Zelda
>6.51 million copies sold
>The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
>27.49 million copies sold

>>8726593
>Thats a suspicious looking rock. Just sitting there out in the open like that. I have 4 bombs on me, might as well see if it's hiding anything.

>>8726837
You can bomb 3 walls with 1 bomb though

>>8726831
>Wii Sports
>82.90 million copies sold

>>8726517
>and yet the actually good zelda games that came later
Huh? Are you from some anime timeline where Zelda 1 wasn't the peak of the franchise?

i think we all agree that when you hit a breakable wall with your sword it should go *dink* instead of *clank*

>number of people who would be arguing that Zelda should have no indicators for destructible objects had they been a game feature from the start
>0

/thread

>>8726854
I think later games would be improved if they removed a lot of the handholding features, so no actually.

>>8726738
I remember getting stuck in Blaster Master on Area 3 because I didn't know you had to backtrack to Area 1. Spent days trying to do stuff like that pic because you just got Hover in the area, so naturally you'd think it'll be somewhere high. Took me a while before considering going back to previous areas, which was a huge revelation to me at that time.

no maps
no health indicator
no triforce progress tracker
boomerang only

>>8726742
So maybe you should take your fed approved memes back to /v/ so you can play your modern games littered with trannies and ugly niggers.

>>8726854
This

Why is it that secrets in retro FPS are accepted as an absolute part of the appeal, and even recreated in newer games, but people sperg out over bomb walls?

>>8726869
I haven't seen a FPS where you have to hump every wall since DOOM II, anon

You don't need to bomb every wall in the game. The only wall you need to bomb is the one at Spectacle Rock to get to level 9, which an NPC tells you about. Zoomers are extremely autistic about trying to 100% a game on their first playthrough I don't get it.

>>8726870
Games like the new Shadow Warrior recreate those exact kinds of secrets, and people love it.

>>8726873
>playing a game that fired their lead voice actor because he was white

>>8726875
I accept your concession.

>>8726872
Completionism in general is a specific kind of illness that I just do not get. The game's there to amuse you. The point at which it becomes work, is the point where the game has clearly ceased to be a game.
>NOOOO! BUT I NEED EVERY HEART PIECE OR I HAVEN'T DONE IT LEGIT!

>>8726875
Elf must voice elf.

Just give the player as special cane they can use to detect destructible walls. Retards who consider wasting bombs a puzzle are happy and people who don't want to waste resources are happy.

>>8726908
As long as that's an item that's hidden behind an obscure bomb wall.

>>8726449
I would've preferred rules to it, like how Binding of Isaac handles its secret rooms.

>>8726934
Anon that doesn't even make sense. TBoI uses an RNG seed to place rooms on each floor. Zelda is hand-designed, none of the screens share these arbitrary generation rules and that includes secret rooms.

>>8726847
Based, a fellow man of culture

>>8726940
You can still have rules in the level design philosophy and method.

>>8726948
But that's just arbitrary restriction for no benefit at all. There's literally no upside to having programmatic rules to hand-designed levels, its only a benefit if you're letting a program build your levels for you.
It also makes secrets not secrets. Secret rooms in Isaac aren't secrets, they're just another type of level resource that refers back to actual retro vidya secrets.
The secrets in Zelda 1 are legitimate secrets, as in you were not required or necessarily even intended to find them.

>>8726951
>There's literally no upside to having programmatic rules to hand-designed levels,
Counterpoint, each secret area in Abe's Oddysee has its entry hidden behind a foreground barrel. Even something simple like that.

I've noticed that there has been an increase of casuals on /vr/ of the past few years. Seems like every other thread is a complaint about anything older than 6th gen is inherently unfair because devs didn't hold your hand, shit game design because there is a challenge to overcome, bullshit because information that would be useful is omitted (despite usually being present in the manual, which goes unread), or a defense of the use of scumming savestates, using cheats, or credit feeding to get past a hard part of a game because "who cares how other people play the game? The point of games is to have fun, and losing isn't fun! Removing all challenge from a game is fun!", then proceed to complain how the game is only 15 minutes long total if you remove all the difficulty. And even for 6th gen, games renowned for their difficulty are now called "reddit" (for example, God Hand). Why the fuck so people even play hard games if not to overcome the challenge? If you want to play something "fun, relaxing", why not play something like Harvest Moon, The Sims, or Animal Crossing instead of Ghosts n Goblins or Contra?

>>8726970
First of all God Hand is shit. Secondly using an expendable resource blindly is not engaging in any way.

>>8726971
It is though. It's the essence of gambling. You have a limited number of something, but if you trust your inclinations and use it in just the right place, it might pay off.

>>8726978
>It's the essence of gambling
So something that only appeals to people with no impulse control and a general low IQ.

Also stop being afraid of wasting bombs. They pretty much only exist for finding secret walls. The worst thing that happens if you run out is you have to find more, which also isn't hard because enemies drop them.

>>8726982
>le high IQ gamer who finds satisfaction in being told exactly how to win at games with no room for ambiguity

>>8726992
>low IQ gambling addict jumps to strawman the instant he gets called out

>>8726998
You literally want games reduced to the point where there is no challenge beyond putting tab A into slot B, and you're proud of this.

>>8727005
Where did I say that?

>>8727006
It's the brunt of the entire argument that everything in a game needs to be overly signposted.

>>8727007
Or you know, just not total guesswork.

>>8727009
That's what makes it fun though. That's what makes it a secret.

>>8726970
But bombing every wall in the game is not necessarily challenging. There is no skill involved checking every single way in the game just in case there's something hidden back there.
What would have been great is if they utilized NPCs more and they would tell you rumors about things hidden in certain areas. You know, something that encourages you to explore and talk to people and even to take notes on the map that so many people made.
Removing tedium to make the overall experience better is fine. It's not hurting the core design because you will always be able to just trial and error your way into a secret.
Also I don't think people complain about Ghosts n Goblins being hard. They are hard games, but they aren't tedious. You don't get stuck in the traditional sense. You always know what to do and where to go. It just depends on your skill level. In Zelda, it really a challenge if you can just google the answer? You can't necessarily google getting good at the game.

>>8727049
>In Zelda, it really a challenge if you can just google the answer?
There's a distinction between skill challenges (ie, action) and logic challenges (ie, puzzles). You can google the answer to today's Wordle, but that would ruin the entire point of the game.

>>8727053
If you were supposed to play the entire game like bomberman, then it would be a suitable "challenge". In this case it's not even a logic challenge, it's just trying every single option until something works. There's no real intuition, there's no pattern, nor tells, it's just blindly throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks.
If you're playing wordle, you probably play it for the challenge of guessing a word. It would not make sense for you to suddenly have to solve some nonsense riddle in order for your correct guess to count.
The point of Zelda up to that point was to wander around the levels until you find the next dungeon, then beat all the baddies, get a triforce piece and then do it all over again. I'm trying to think if there was ever a point where to finish a dungeon you had to bomb some nondescript wall that there wasn't a hint given by finding the dungeon map.

>>8726970
Its no secret allowing 6th gen caused a bunch of /v/teens to flood the board, the people who don't actually like retro games but come here for the retro cred. Its why they try to justify the shit you just said.

>>8726839
Wii Sports is a good game.

>>8726839
>GTA 5
>160 Million copies sold
Why even play any Nintendo game when you have GTA 5

>>8726513
They can be subtle. Like a misaligned texture in Doom/Quake hinting at a secret.

>>8726956
Ah, yes, and Abe's odyssey is truly hailed as the progenitor of an entire genre of videogames, a franchise still running to this day at that.
Do you not realize that you're arguing that the game should make every supposed secret an obvious and immediate tell? You literally might as well just put a door that says SECRET on the room.

>>8727162
In all fairness, the misaligned texture is only subtle because so much of Doom is graphically janky already. If the game had flawless texture mapping everywhere except the secret, it'd become immediately obvious what the secret was.

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>>8726872
Like said, this is really more of a criticism for the 2nd Quest where you do need to bomb random, DIFFERENT walls. It's also present in Zelda 2 (have fun finding New Kasuto), I think the criticism is just misapplied to this game.

>>8726631
>head and breasts
I cannot unsee this.

>>8726497
i agree with this. haters gonna hate, but lttp was not improved by adding cues for every secret door.

>>8727069
It's the crowd of people who keep trying to start GTA San Andreas threads. "Proto modern" is "retro" now because stupid time keeps moving, and no one ever wants to properly define what retro gaming is beyond just games that have passed beyond the point of being new.

>>8726651
It wouldn't have been so bad if you had a tool for checking walls en mass, similar to the red candle for bushes. That's the other side of the coin for checking walls, unlike bushes you don't have a way to check every spot on screen for free.

Having a hammer as an item that could destroy bomb walls infinitely would've solved a lot of issues with random walls and made things far more economical for searching dungeons.

>>8727807
I suppose it would be much better since you don't have to go and grind for bombs every 8 checks, but that only reminds me of New Kasuto in 2 (like mentioned) and though that is infinite you have to check basically the entire forest East Coast because the game isn't specific enough where it is. And that's WITH you being told which doesn't happen there.

Still though, I suppose you're right. A big issue with bombs is that they're extremely limited in Zelda 1 and it only makes the whole "bombing random walls thing" that much worse.

>>8727762
To be fair, there's really no clear definition on what retro means either. I feel like a /v2k/ board or something similar could be a nice way to solve this but I doubt that we ever get enough traffic here to get nice things like that.

>>8727827
It'd make a hell of a lot more sense than any of the other recent /v/ spinoff boards.

>>8727823
I mean, the only good way to go about finding those walls is to know the mechanics of how tiles work (Which can be deduced, but probably not for a young kid playing the game and even less likely for the era as few really understood game design at the time) and then systematically checking each individual screen and keeping notes. You can cover 16 tiles with eight bombs assuming they're side by side, which means most screens can be fully checked with a single bomb pack, and if you find the capacity upgrade, you can reliably check at least a couple screens before having to refill.

Still though, I believe there's 8x16 map squares to check, and while you don't have to map all 128 of them with bombs, there's still probably about a half or third you'll need to check. At the same time however, there's a discrete number of checks that you have to make and it's entirely possible to quickly figure out if a given screen has any bombable walls, especially if you have the capacity upgrades and instead reset instead of saving to retain your bomb count. I'd far rather a hammer with infinite uses though.

>>8727827
I think there's a clear distinction between what people picture in their heads when they think "retro games", and the PS2, and we all kind of know this, but it's a hard enough thing to nail down that we all just have to sit here and take it.
Something about that changeover in the mentality to what games were that happened somewhere from the late 90's to mid 00's is just too much to handwave. They are two distinct eras.

>>8726449
There shouldn't be cracked walls, but if you stab a wall it should play a sound to suggest it can be bombed, like what Link 's Awakening did

>>8726606
>i n-n-need to collect everything on the first playthrough
do you know what kids did when they beat a game back then? they’d play it again and again, and remember where they bombed and where they didn’t, and uncover new secrets in each different playthrough. if there are big obvious bomb cracks in walls then there’s no point in there being bombable walls.

>>8727517
damn i see it now too.. what a slut

>>8726691
anon bullshitted me again
it WAS the center rock

>>8726593

>>8726709
thats called a roguelike, sir
>>8726729
i like the comic where he sucks moblin cock

>>8726496
shit now I see it

>>8726729
>>8727987
it's the old man who asks for repairs though

should just change the name from zelda to bomberman

>>8727985
I think having ridiculous secrets like this is actually cool, but only if you have to solve a riddle or something.

Zelda 1 is too fucking cryptic with its hints.

Zelda 1 was designed to sell more issues of Nintendo Power.

There, I said it.

a secret is a hidden screen with the developer's initials, these aren't secrets, they're part of the game and should have a game mechanic for locating them without resorting to autism

>>8728441
ok now I can respect this

>>8728531
>a secret is a hidden screen with the developer's initials, these aren't secrets, they're part of the game and should have a game mechanic for locating them without resorting to autism
Ah, divine judgment handed down from the heavenly arbitrator of acceptable game design choices.
Seethe more Your Honor.

>>8728441
That's why half a strategy guide was packaged in with the game.

>>8728537
>Seethe more
why the devs agree with me, see: every zelda game after the first when they realized their mistake

>>8726449
They actually planned on doing that originally but the NES just didn't have the vram for the extra tiles.

>>8728548
You clearly haven't played any of those games then since Zelda II did equally dickish things to hide what were usually mandatory items for progression.
Games being dumbed down so baby stops crying isn't the stunning endorsement you think it is, anyways.

>>8728609
Source:
https://youtu.be/GM-e46xdcUo

>>8726740
Secrets in platformers like this are a lot easier to figure out than in adventure games like Zelda.

>>8728617
>look at this game with absolutely no relation to the zelda franchise apart from the name

>>8728647
Oh okay we're just playing calvinball with the goalposts now. Cool, I accept your concession.

>>8726720
> The only thing I don't really like is how easy it is to brute force them by using everything on everything.

That's the stupidest argument I've ever heard, and proof you've never actually played an adventure game, because it's virtually impossible:

1) Many games have upwards of 1,000,000 possible interaction combinations, which was a tactic developers used to combat piracy for a number of their games. There are dozens of adventure games which are incompleteable without their manual.

2) Many adventure games had the possibility of death, so incorrectly using the item meant reloading your last save, in which case, the few puzzles that are brute-forceable are about as brute-forceable as any other video game.

3) Many interactions count on you interacting with the environment in specific ways that don't rely on inventory items.

> If your tools have limited uses, like bombs, you're more inclined to think about where to place them, and not just try them on every wall.

Again, more evidence you've never actually played adventure games, since many items have limited uses which you can use incorrectly, which equated to either a death, a walking-deadman state in which case you won't know it was the wrong usage until hours afterwards, or you have to reload a save because you can't move forward.

>And if anything it was games like Metal Gear Solid that finally killed of the point and click adventure, because people who hated the puzzles just started playing those games to get their narrative experiences.

Ninja Gaiden had cutscenes a decade before MGS and it had zero impact on adventure games, furthermore, MGS had little to no impact on the PC gaming market and sold like shit on PC, which is where adventure games were, so it was considerably irrelevant. What killed off adventure games was the advent of fast-paced PC games like Quake 3, Unreal Tournament, and Tribes.

>>8728650
>goalposts
you mean like bringing up a game with no bombable walls in a thread about bombable walls?

>>8728659
>There are dozens of adventure games which are incompleteable without their manual
Wow, dozens you say, out of how many thousands? And all the ones worth playing didn't require a manual at all.

>>8728668
>out of how many thousands
>all the ones worth playing didn't require a manual at all.

Try harder to fit in, zoomer, lmao. Not only were there not even thousands of point and click adventure games, but Codename: ICEMAN, King's Quest 3, 4, 5, and 6, Leisure Suit Larry 1, 2, 3, and 5, Police Quest, Quest For Glory 2, Space Quest, and a few others, are just a few that require the game manual in order to finish, and were among the highest selling, highest rating P&C games around.

Go back to picking your nose on /v/ talking about Elden Ring you little shit.

>>8726449
Cracks are way too obvious. If you absolutely have to make an indicator, make it blend in nicely.

>>8726449
Every zelda since alttp has had obvious bomb spots and I can say that the franchise has not benefited from them at all.

>>8726593
>not getting it
This is not a game you play 'once'. It's not meant to be beaten in 2 hours. It's an exploration game designed to make you learn and remember.

>>8728745
even without cracks, I still would've checked both walls (lower left and center right). and try jumping up from under the left platform.

>>8726449
Let.me guess...this is actually the entire tileset for overworld

>>8726508
Those are all the same as having a crack on the wall. I don't have an answer on how to do it better, but Doom had a really good method of hiding secrets in plain site but it had the luxury of being first person so it was easier to miss obvious things. It's a lot harder to do where you can see everything and everything is grid based, so any suspicious looking tile no matter how subtle will always look like a big flashing sign saying to bomb or burn here.

>>8728441
Such a brave and stunning take. Sub-25 year olds truly poses the greatest minds of our generation. Where do I subscribe and upboat?

>>8726986
this
ever wonder why bomb bag upgrades are so fucking useless in newer zelda games? because you spend them so little because every wall is marked

>>8726982
oh you are afraid you will look dumb playing it, thanks for revealing that about yourself

Didn't read the thread but I'm guessing it's zoomer retards who downloaded a rom of the game and quit after five mins or just followed a walkthrough vs boomers who actually played the game in their childhood when they had loads of spare time to explore the world and were actually capable of rtfm.

>>8728668
the thousand other chaff filler adventure games with 30 copies sold in europe are very likely going to be bullshit impossible to complete without manuals, even more than the ‘dozens of adventure games’ you’re nitpickkng. clearly he meant notable games in the genre you tard

>>8728708
>King's Quest
>required the game manual

Weird how I beat the entire series with emulation then

>>8728647
Which game?

>>8728793
It is. Games can be memorable without $450 million USD budgets dedicated almost entirely to creating art assets that people glance at once and then immediately forget.

>>8727164
Not him, but don't be dissing Abe's Oddysee like that. It's vastly underrated.
The guy's wrong anyway. Oddworld doesn't have every secret hidden by a foreground barrel (or other foreground object). Even in the image he posted, there's a secret hidden by pulling the "pully" lever and running into the latch before it closes. There's plenty of other secrets that don't follow these formulae too. Like a hidden door obscured by shadows, or just jumping down to an area that seemed inaccessible.

>>8726986
Zelda 1 bombs are really good as weapons.

>>8726527
I like the parts where you are literally on rails. What did they mean by that?

>>8726654
>"noooo zelda literally handholds you through a linear game that's why they show you where to bomb"
>meanwhle, in BotW

>>8727762
>no one ever wants to properly define what retro gaming is beyond just games that have passed beyond the point of being new
that's exactly what retro is

>>8729095
I think anon was saying there's no definitive threshold as to what is no longer "new".

The PlayStation 4 is retro. Once something is no longer next or current gen, it is retro.

>>8728531
>without resorting to autism
I sense that you do not enjoy video games.

The best way to approach this is to make the item/wall obvious, but figuring out how to actually get there is a challenge.

>>8729156
>exciting new video game!
>press button on squares until you find the right square!
>ever 8 button presses you have to spend 5 minutes restocking before trying again!

>>8726631
The hollow tink from the sword in lttp was perfection.

>>8726497
Ok but fuck that hidden room in Portopia

>>8728623
yes but the point is, one is an adventure game, one isn't

>>8726449
There's a maximum of one secret per screen in the overworld. It really doesn't take long to brute force it. And these are bonuses, they aren't required to beat the game.

>>8729434
>It really doesn't take long to brute force it
do it right now, anon

stream yourself going screen by screen checking each one for a secret

>>8729095
No, that's what old is. "Retro" is a whole other thing. Disco is retro while metal isn't, even though both of them are roughly the same age. The difference is metal stuck around.

every person itt wanting cracks on the walls still has yet to acknowledge that you don’t need to do an autistic 100% completion on the first run, or to find every moblin rupee stash on the overworld

>>8729925
But I need to 100% the game as fast as possible so I can be a part of the internet social circle!

>>8726496
They do look like a statue of something
>nokonoko
fag

>>8728881
>Weird how I beat the entire series with emulation then

Weird how you're an obvious fucking liar.

https://kingsquest.fandom.com/wiki/Copy_protection

Try harder retard.

>>8726449
>>8726507
>>8726508
>>8726517
You're on /vr/, why do you not understand the design of Zelda 1?

It was meant to be discussed with other players, on the school bus, in the playground, etc., where people would share the discoveries they had made. If a bombable wall was obvious enough for ANYONE to find, then there is no discussion. You aren't expected to bomb every wall systematically, you are expected to bomb some walls, while other kids bomb other walls, and together you discover most of the bombable walls.

>>8726529
>playing video games
>ever

>>8729925
But then how do you get the platinum achievement?

>>8726593
You're told to bomb it, though

>Link to the Past let's you tap your sword on the wall to listen for weak walls
>cracks still tell you where 90% of them are and the ability is hardly ever used

This should be standard. You should be able to knock around for looks rocks or bricks, then when you think you hear a difference, bomb it.

>>8729990
Yeah, but don't have the cracks, except maybe in like the first area of the game, because it defeats the point.

I love OOT already, but the thought of a version of OOT filled to the brim with real secrets the way the NES game was is so much more exciting as a concept. The reason those stupid rumors of finding the triforce and whatever else became so prominent is that people want games to be this way.

>>8730003
It's odd, I honestly can't think of a single non-telegraphed bombable wall in ALttP. At least the GB(C) games make some use of the 'technique'.

>>8729990
Actually, another anon in this thread pointed out how later Zelda games gave you bigger bomb bags but they're fucking useless because you'll never use that many bombs at a time due to the obviously telegraphed "secrets". Instead it would've been cool if later Zelda installments kept the hidden secrets but you were allowed to upgrade your bomb bag, giving you a smaller margin for error.

>you need to bomb every wall and burn every bush!
No you fucking don't, you retarded assholes, to beat Zelda, you need to burn exactly one (1) bush, and bomb exactly one (1) wall, and both of these are indicated by the game. Every other bombable wall and burnable bush are just bonuses for exploring.
There's no need to discover every single secret in the game, they're just bonuses of limited (in-game) material value, 100% a game should be for the hardcore enthusiasts.

>>8726870
>>8727162
>>8727173
>>8728795
Games like Doom, Quake and Duke Nukem 3D employed a wide mix of different ways to hide secrets, sometimes these secrets were completely hidden and only hinted at, sometimes the secret area itself is visible but with no obvious way to enter it, its prize being a useful weapon or powerup (or on occasion, an exit to a secret level), tantalizing the player and taunting him to get it, then rewarding him for his thinking if he figures it out.
Some secrets are just directly hidden behind fairly obvious secret doors, often these are less spectacular secrets, like just a bit of extra health or ammo, but hey that's still useful, for a level with hard encounters, just one extra health or ammo pickup can make a substantial difference.

Games like those are different though, because the level design is not tile based and instead very freeform, more often than not the limits are the imagination of the designer.
It's more Wolfenstein 3D that is the wall-hump-a-palooza, because it's a much more rudimentary game with levels made from tiles, but even then you only needed to hump one single wall in the original episodes to beat the game, and it was telegraphed really hard, so it's still on Zelda's level in that regard. It did pull some secret progression bullshit in the first expansion though.

>>8730141
desu most bombable walls should be hidden from the player except for if they play on an Easy mode.

>>8730167
>bomb exactly one (1) wall, and both of these are indicated by the game
The entirety of the final dungeon is randomly bombing every wall to progress, but that's sort of its 'gimmick'.

>he writes paragraphs on the internet about whether a 40 year old children's toy is "fair"

>>8730318
Yes, but then it's pretty clear you've gotta bomb around.

>>8730331
Nigger.

>>8730605
It's still a tedious pain in the ass, especially if you missed the bomb upgrade. I used a map for it, and I feel 100% justified.

>>8726507
>systematically bombing every wall
you make it sounds worse than it is, you make estimations based on where you think it would be, every screen in the game has a secret, you just gotta figure out the way it has been hidden, or move on! it's optional stuff!

Every time this topic is brought up I'll keep shilling Zelda Classic and some of the custom quests it has. The Depths of Malice handles bombable walls and burnable bushes in a really smart way I think: The arrows you fire from your bow will make those secrets flash if the arrow passes over it. Which means less wasting time shooting fire and wasting bombs checking random spots, but you're still using a resource in the form of rupees to check.

>>8726449
No. I hated that they did that in LTTP. Less of a secret and more of an expected path.
Gameplay wise LTTP was a downgrade from the original.

Zoombinis in this thread be like
>how were you supposed to know where to bomb?

>>8731660
what a bro, when i was growing up ZC was my life, i played the shit out of it, and some of the custom content is better than most of the official games

>>8731853
Same here, the past few years I've been revisiting ZC as there's some fantastic quests. Personal recommendations are Link's Quest for the Hookshot 2, Link and Zelda: Panoply of Calatia, Zelda's Butt, The Slipstream, and The Lost Kingdom Of The Banana Blood God.

>>8726449
Only for required paths.

>>8726513
Awareness of surroundings and immersive gameplay that you can interact with your environment like that (see weakened wall and destroy it). Just randomly placing bombs with no rhyme or reason hoping to get lucky is stupid as hell

>>8731886
quit randomly bombing walls and getting upset
>wow i’m REAL perceptive to have seen this MASSIVE fucking crack in the wall basically TELLING me to place a bomb here! i wonder what SECRET lays behind it, to reward my fucking awesome AWARENESS!
you can be aware of odd dead ends in zelda 1 and testing the water with a bomb (their entire purpose is to blow up walls)
quit being upset that you spend your 8 bombs trying to autistically comb over 1 screen in the overworld looking for non-required secrets

>>8731902
how many secrets in this game are actually telegraphed, i find it difficult to point to a single instance where something is hidden beyond belief, there's like some rules by which Nintendo hid all the secrets that you pick up on as you play

>>8726593
1. Could there be bombable? YES
2. Would it be on the back wall? NO (too tight)
3. Would it be on the middle? YES (probably)
4. Left or right? RIGHT (player enters from left; rightmost block on middle rock is thus most conspicuously unconspicuous)
You learn the language of the game by exploring. It is fun, in fact.

>>8726825
She cute tho
Also i cri ever tim

Better nowadays, but not better in its day.

>>8731902
The way Isaac Rebirth does it is a much better example. There are secret rooms without marked walls, but it's based on how many rooms are bordering it and you can determine where the secret room is based on floor layout. You also have shiny rocks which are very easy to miss especially when you're rushing, so it does actually reward you for being observant.

Of course, Isaac Rebirth is 10x the game Legend of Zelda is so it's not exactly surprising it does so many mechanics way better. In either case, the approach Legend of Zelda is just really archaic and adds nothing to the game.

>>8732323
it's still too random, the secrets in zelda ARE there, in binding of isaac it MIGHT BE there

>>8732323
>There are secret rooms without marked walls, but it's based on how many rooms are bordering it and you can determine where the secret room is based on floor layout.
I wish Zelda 1 had something like that. I got to the last dungeon and would you believe Nintendo made it unwinnable. There's no way to progress and the rooms just go in a circle.

>>8732951
I believe somewhere in Zelda 1 an NPC tells you there is a hidden room in the dungeon's "eyes" and if you bomb walls bordering where the supposed eyes are on the map you'll come into the secret room. Then teaches you that dungeons should have secret rooms that aren't that hard to find if you pay attention to the layout of the map. Level 9 is really not that hard if you draw a map, which the manual tells you to do.

>>8733015
>13 possible walls
>can only carry 12 bombs
>none of them work anyway
You're defending a bad game. Nobody can beat this shit. It was cryptic and impossible and it just ends on a giant middle finger.

>>8733063
If you were smart and picked up on the layout of previous dungeons, you would think the dungeon will progress upwards like the others, would start bombing the 3 northern walls and what do you know, you found the way forward. The only hard part about level 9 is the enemies. I beat it pretty easily without a guide for the first time about a year ago.

>>8733063
If you looked at the map and saw the big gaping hole right there dead in the center, you'd think that there might be a secret there. Place a bomb on one of the 4 walls and there you go, you found the way forward. It's not that hard considering I beat this dungeon for the first time about a year ago without a guide.

>>8733063
wow i cant believe zelda 1 softlocks you if you run out of bombs

>>8733161
>trying to make PROGRESS
>"dude just waste bombs for a square you've already figured out is a complete dead end"

>>8733179
It's not a dead end though. You go through those stairs which leads you to another area which is only 2 rooms with nothing in them but a bunch of enemies, and a locked door. You'd think there would have to be something else to those rooms, so maybe you'd start bombing walls and you will find more rooms. If you go through the locked door, you'll come across some more dead ends which is solved by once again bombing your way forward.

>>8733208
Nice try but that sort of thinking didn't exist until Binding of Issac (which is 10x the game Zelda 1 is)

>>8726449
In Zelda 1 there were only 4 possible places a bomb-able wall could be in a dungeon room (often less with an entrance and exit) so it really wasn't an issue in that game.
The later games used bombs and walls like a key and lock. "You can't go here until you have the bomb bag", and the first game wasn't designed like that.

>>8726507
Did you systematically bomb every wall and burn every bush? No you didn't. How did YOU find all the secret? Because that's how you were supposed to.

>>8726508
>If you're going to have tells, they should be vague.
agreed
>contextual clues like a small pile of rubble near to the wall, a statue pointing you to the direction of the wall, a circle of flowers.
uhhh

maybe if the old man didn't speak in engrish the clues would have been better. as far as overworld spots like the random bushes and stuff, they really aren't that cryptic. as long as you are trying to push/bomb/burn everything you should find most of the secrets. a few spots are kinda ridiculous but that's how they made extra money selling those strategy guides

>>8729951
This anon gets it. People forget that these games were made for literal children.

>>8726720
By this logic platformers are "brute force" because you just keep trying to make the jump until you eventually do
That's the fuckin' game, retard. Better players will make the jump/use the right item in the right place quickly rather than after hours of pain.

>>8733063
hilarious bait