/vr/ - Retro Games

Bla bla bla words words words
Just like your favorite Kojima games

>>8668245
I always assumed it was a joke, apart from obvious lingering frustration from Phantom Pain which is justifiable I think, I haven't played MGSV yet but from what I hear story-wise it was unnecessary and I'm not a fan of how Hayter was shafted from his role for it.

He's not a hack but he is a troll. Most of the "meaning" of his games is him taking the piss and watching the "games are art" crowd twist themselves into pretzels figuring out the symbolism.

how can it be the first post modern game when Plok came out before it?

>>8668263
Why

>people overthinking a fucking simple story
>people thinking a fucking story belongs in a videoGAME
This is why gaming is dead now.

If you read a summary of the plot and themes of the Star Wars prequels, you'd think they were masterpieces.

Kojima has good ideas. So what? Ideas are cheap, it's why there's no value in being an "idea guy". He can't execute on those ideas for shit.

>>8668692
He executes on them just fine. There's a reason his games are so popular.

The thing that's funny about MGS2 is everyone I've met who really likes it and the "deep postmodern themes" doesn't seem to really understand them anyway. I wonder, to what extent was Kojima trying to make a statement, rather than just including these things in the story because he thought it would be cool and a talking point.

Kojima just puts everything he thinks is neat into his games. This includes anything from lengthy discussions about artsy topics down to "if snake crouches over the poopy for too long a hidden disgust meter fills, which makes Breast Bison have frowning eyebrows in her bossfight cutscene". At the very least it makes his stuff very entertaining, which is way more than you can say for most game directors.

Kind of surprised people aren't more conflicted over it though. When the next game comes out expect some kind of big "kojima makes great games, but his immaturity drags down the medium and that's not okay >:(". Probably because he's gonna put in a character named Breast Bison.

Everything he's made after MGS3 is horrible shit. Like really, really bad. And he's gotten worse with time. Death Stranding is practically begging to be taken seriously by Jewllywood, he probably expected to be invited to direct a movie after that. I say this with MGS2 being my favorite game of all time, by the way. As much as people like to deny it, he clearly had a team to keep him on a leash. In fact, the fact that he has MGS2 under his belt makes it even worse, because you'd think he would be a smart man, but he isn't.

Anyone who directs a game with a 60 minute cutscene is inherently a hack

>>8668765
THE JUICE

>>8668245
He just isn't a very good writer.
Even the translator on MGS2 said so in an interview, and Kojima got so monumentally butthurt that he had Konami's lawyers shut down the website that did the interview.
So in addition to being a shit writer, he cannot handle criticism.
The fact that there are so many gamers who praise Kojima despite his obvious shortcomings is just proof that gamers (for the most part) are uncultured retards who praise mediocrity.

>>8668917
>Obvious short comings
>proof: a translator once said

Kojima was one half of a solid writing team for MGS1 and 2. When the other lead writer left Kojima sort of fell into the same trap as George Lucas.
The guy's not stupid but he is pretentious and occupies such clout that he's surrounded by yes-men.

>>8668716
Back in my day, everyone fucking hated MGS2.

>>8668917
I always loved it that whenever these kinds of threads pop up, someone always brings up Agness "We've managed to avoid drowning" Kaku, as if she is a reliable source for an unbiased opinion and not a wash-up wannabe writer who only got into game localizations so she could insert her fan-fiction into her projects. She's still salty at Konami for the fact that most of her suggested script changes were rejected by people like Scott Dolph and Satoshi Hirano, who actually respect the original work. Her idea of """punching up""" the MGS2 script was basically having the characters throw Joss Whedon-esque quips at each other, as shown in her first draft of the Tanker opening. I wish her old personal site was still around, where you can see how she basically trashes every project she worked on and all of her clients.

It's either that, or people who still cling to the Fukushima meme like this guy (>>8669372), despite the fact that it's been proven that the guy only did the optional CODEC calls.

>>8668258
I had a lot of fun with Phantom Pain. If you can find it for cheap and are itching to sneak around and are craving more Metal Gear for whatever reason, I think it's worth your time. I enjoyed the new version of Metal Gear Online, too

>>8668736
I think he did it for both reasons.
>>8668765
I felt insulted by Death Stranding for the entire time I played it. I really wanted to like it, but I played until the first boss and felt like I had my fill. I might try it again someday.

Kojima just throws everything into his games, and then people act like he's a mastermind when some of it is borderline interesting.
No one ever talks about the ending sequence of MGS2, where Solid Snake directs a cringeworthy monologue to the audience about not letting your genes define you, which is pretty much irrelevant to the whole "information age" theme of the game, and felt like something out of GI Joe, in terms of how condescending and on the nose it is.
Kojima fundamentally doesn't understand the notion of brevity being the soul of wit.

>>8668716
Yeah, Solid Snake's awesome, and Solid Snake is awesome because he's a hybrid of 80's action heroes.
The games are full of cool ridiculous characters, who feel like something straight out of anime, or a really good B-movie.
The gameplay itself is fun and satisfying.
The music and sound design is excellent.
The games are full of dumb memes like characters reading your memory card, or hidden easter eggs where you can masturbate to pin-up girls.

The degree to which the games are beloved for being "well written", and not all of that, is seriously overstated.

>>8668258
It was more of an overreaction to people calling MGS4 a movie because it basically had no story at all except the beginning and the end

>>8668765
All the MGS games were good. All of them. Portable ops was good. Peace Walker was fucking great. 4 was good. 5 was good. Deal with it.

>>8669547
I never understood this meme that "MGSV" has no story." It does have one. It's just that instead of force-feeding it to you with minutes-long cutscenes like the previous games did, you're expected to piece things together by listening to the tapes and paying close attention to the events of the missions themselves.

KDS

>>8669503
yeah, the well-written part feels like people just attaching to the philosophy 101 dumps and ignoring the pissing and shitting jokes or the just outright absurd garbage that shows up everywhere. I would say his work has a certain unique magnetism, like B-movies as you pointed out, but it's nothing particularly profound. Maybe it is standout for video games, but that's hardly unique. It's like saying that a sport has a good storyline.

>>8668258
>I always assumed it was a joke,
have you never played mgs4 or something?

>>8668757
some people just have armor against the writing school rejects we call game journos. WayForward puts fuckable girls in every possible role in almost every game they make, yet nobody seems to think this is a problem. I don't know how they manage to avoid criticism.

>>8668765
>you'd think he would be a smart man
lmao no, I think he puts a little more effort into story points than most game directors, and people in the west respect his work more because it looks american or like a hollywood movie. Plotfags in games just have a critical flaw, which is that they don't engage with any higher thought medium than video games and japanese cartoons.

tl;dr READ NIGGA READ

>>8669553
I really liked the story in MGSV, honestly. It was pure schlock, but I listened to every tape in the game. The voice acting was good too.

>>8669427
I don't respect the Kaku sisters ever since the Untold History of JP Game Developers snafu happened.

>>8669592
>I don't know how they manage to avoid criticism.
By not addressing that kind of ‘critique’ by journos, the problem goes away. Companies far too often freak out and feel they need to apologize to the 1% of loud prudes who wouldn’t even buy their game anyway, even if they cut back on sexy designs.

>>8669553
The tapes were basically what the codec calls were in the earlier games, except infinitely better since you didn't have to interrupt gameplay to listen to them anymore. They really made good use of the walkman concept.

I still say MGSV goes down as an all-time great game if they had let Kojima finish it. Even the unfinished version was better than most games of its era

>>8669603
but what of cases where they just refuse to describe your game in any other way? In business circles, they call it "losing control of your brand image". Like peloton, for example, which has lost the ability to dictate the nature and image of their brand vs. pop culture at large dictating their image. It's sort of like when your company becomes the butt of a joke. You don't really have much means to get respect back.

>>8669594
But I don't know much about her sister, but Agness has always been insufferable, even before the HG101/Untold History fiasco, and the schizoid who hired her for the book was a complete simp to her before shit went down, so I'm glad it happened to him.

>>8669593
The way you feel the cohesion of the unit slowly give way to paranoia was actually well done. That whole feeling of pointless futility the game conjures up was well done.
What I don't like so much was Big Boss being a fake. Really just feels like a twist for the sake of a twist, and a retread of MGS2's concept of taking some guy, and turning him into Snake with the right stimulus. What was the actual point of doing that?

To be fair, you need at least an average/unremarkable IQ to understand Kojima's writing, and half the people in the 1st world have an IQ under the average. Hence why they don't like Kojima.

>>8668258
Phantom Pain literally doesn't have an ending. You literally, with no hyperbole, and NOT beat Phantom Pain because it's campaign was never finished.

Holy fuck I'm mad. Metal Gwar's story will now never be finished because of a major development in Phantom Paid that never gets resolved. Anything Konami makes will be fanfiction.

>>8668281
Even Doom had a story. Fuck off retard.

>>8669682
I didn't really mind the twist, myself. It felt appropriate to retread that point from MGS2 since MGSV was a sequel to MGS4, the game whose entire message was "please let me die." I felt like it was appropriate for MGSV to pull that twist in the eleventh hour as a commentary on its own existence.
I do agree with an earlier anon, though; I really wish we could have gotten that game with Hayter in the role, even though we probably wouldn't have heard much of him.

>>8669703
>Metal Gwar's story will now never be finished because of a major development in Phantom Paid that never gets resolved.
Bro the story was finished in 2 and double finished in 4. What more do you need

>>8669609
There's also the conversations between enemy soldiers that gives out more to the story that are pretty easy to miss out if you're rushing through the missions to S-rank them.

>>8669609
>The tapes were basically what the codec calls were in the earlier games, except infinitely better since you didn't have to interrupt gameplay
But that's what makes the codec calls so special. It actually feels like you have a real support team that will call or which you can call at any time and get unique conversations based on the situation.

>>8669720
I think this was a pretty deliberate choice for V, gameplay reasons aside. Snake doesn't speak hardly at all in the game, even in cutscenes. As far as the player knows, he's seen a lot of shit at that point and so have Kaz and Ocelot. He would probably prefer to keep quiet at that point in his life.

>>8669710
If anything, the true ending of Peace Walker sealed the deal and the series should have just stopped right there. It couldn’t have gotten better than that.

>>8669732
MGSV is just like Peace Walker, but without the portable bullshit. The only thing PW does better are the Monster Hunter-esque boss battles and the fact it has co-op.

>>8669710
2 ended on a cliffhanger

>>8670058
No it didn't.

>>8670076
Yes it did. Don't skip the credits next time.

>>8670154
I don't think you know what a "cliffhanger" ending is.

>>8668245
>Was everything in pic related just made up or something
Wikipedia is categorized as fiction, yes.

>>8669419
>Kids back in my day hated MGS2.
Fixed that for you.

>>8670204
If it blows open the conclusion, and opens up a whole mess of new questions with the intent of baiting a sequel, then it's a cliffhanger. Saying MGS2 didn't end in one is like saying Halo 2 didn't end in one.

>>8668716
after the disappointment of MGS2 the series's sales dropped hard MGS3 did way worse
It's clear that people like the surface level stuff no one cares about philosophy 101 this series is very much like the matrix trilogy no one gives a fuck about philosophy they want the cool characters fight scenes and a cookie cutter heroes journey

>>8668245

>>8671601
Like I wrote earlier (>>8669427), the Fukushima meme is another cope from people who hate Kojima, but can't bring themselves to hate his games, so they pretend that all the good writing came from either, a couple of hack localizers that don't even know what a radio is, or Kojima's co-writer that was assigned to write all the optional codec calls

Meanwhile in reality:
>“While there were some parts that were edited by the both of us, but if I’ll be bold to say it, all the real-time cutscenes were written primarily by Mr. Kojima, as well as all the mandatory CODEC calls. I was assigned to writing all the optional CODEC. We ended up creating around 2,500 files.”

>>8670382
I always considered endings where the main character is left in a precarious situation (hanging off a cliff, for example) to be a cliffhanger ending. MGS2's ending just seems like a typical thriller ending.

>>8669549
I really wish I liked 4 more. It's my least favorite.

>>8671742
I don't even think 1,2 and 3 are especially well written. Maybe more concise, and less filled with pointless bloat and outright bizarre plot points (maybe). Some people really can't cope with the fact that the series has always been a goofy B-movie, and not the life changing masterpiece they thought it was when they were twelve.
Also, Rising is straight up one of the best Metal Gear games, and has all of the hallmarks of what people liked in the early ones. Great characters, great set-pieces, a support team who you can call at any time to get some nice flavour dialogue, a plot that leans just enough into having a point to make, while still being a lot of fun. No Fukushima there.

>>8671601
please explain exactly what he contributed instead of just bringing this guy up at every possible chance

>>8672296
>Some people really can't cope with the fact that the series has always been a goofy B-movie, and not the life changing masterpiece they thought it was when they were twelve.
I've been a fan of these games for ages, since I was about ten, and I've never considered them "life changing masterpieces." The first one has a robot ninja and a guy named Otaku Convention who pisses his pants. Where do you guys meet people that have these opinions?

>>8672296
>Some people really can't cope with the fact that the series has always been a goofy B-movie, and not the life changing masterpiece they thought it was when they were twelve.
Exactly. We're talking about a military fantasy series that is essentially about a guy named SOLID SNAKE (sometimes NAKED SNAKE or PUNISHED SNAKE) who is sent out to destroy a giant nuke-launching robot in each game. It's hard to keep a concept like that fresh for over 25 years.

>>8668257
FPBP

>>8672301
He was just the guy who was assigned to write the filler codec dialogue, as pointed out here (>>8671742). Basically stuff like how to use the controls. Seems like he was responsible for most of the Miller and Nastasha stuff in MGS1 too and helped out write some of the dialogue during the Japanese voice recording, but only after the overall plot was already decided.

>>8672306
Guess you've never heard nerds talk about what an "amazing character" The Boss is.
Why is she amazing? I guess because the game tells you she is. I dunno. She like was smarter than all of those stupid men, and she alone knew that countries weren't real and war is stupid and shit. She saw the world from space, man. She saw a planet undivided, because no one else has seen a map before and understands how geography works. You don't get it man.

MGS V is a stand-alone story, who cares if it wasn't finished. Sure Episode 51 and Part 3 would have been dope, but eh who cares. The story was more about Venom and Kaz living with phantoms than anything else.
MGS story was ended in 4 and the 80s was chosen as a perfect spot to shoe horn in randomness. It's all good G.

>>8672329
Not that guy but caring about what other people value or obsess about was your first mistake

>>8672361
It's the topic of the thread, and now you're complaining?

>>8668245
>Was everything in pic related just made up or something?
>postmodern
Then the answer is yes.
That said, there is a lot to read into MGS2 even without brining in postmodern garbage.

>>8672329
The Boss ruined the MGS series.

>>8672451
Up to a point, yeah actually. The fact that the whole core conflict was just a slap fight between two Boss fanboys is really stupid.

>>8669419
When MGS2 came out everybody I knew liked it, they just thought it was weird and Raiden was lame.

>>8672452
I always thought her character was kinda redundant anyway. Big Boss was already serving that role of a mystical soldier praised by everyone prior to MGS3.

>>8672460
Yeah, MGS3 is pretty much just a light reboot of Metal Gear set in the cold war to bring it even closer to the source inspiration of things like James Bond and Rambo, with the caveat that it's actually a prequel about Big Boss. The fact that it became such a center point on which the rest of the plot pivoted was maybe a mistake. I don't know if characters like Eva and the Boss and Zero should even intrude upon Solid Snake's story at all.

>>8669720
But that still happens during the game. Kaz and Ocelot have lots of context-specific dialogue during missions, it just doesn't take place on a separate screen anymore. I forget what button it is but you can call for info over the radio anytime

MGS2 is art, these type of discussion and reaction towards the game after all these years shows it.

>>8672457
I thought it was weird at first when the switch happened, but never mind Raiden, it was only when I got internet/found g4(tech tv) channel that I found out people hated Raiden.

>"For defeating BOSS I now declare your name...
>BIG BOSS"

Bravo Lyndon B Johnson!

>>8672329
You're right, I've never heard people talk like that or even read posts like that. That does sound annoying, but like... why dwell on it? Why insist that the games themselves suffer in the face of weird nerds that you have to go out of your way to listen to?

>>8674002

>>8672207
I like 4 but it has a lot of missed potential, the gameplay is excellent but it's not used enough
>On rails sections where it could've been stealth segments
>large sections are wasted on Resistance fights with PMCs were guards
>Act 3's tailing mission that's only interesting on the first try.
>Stealth sections in Shadow moses with Gekkos instead of human PMCs or Frogs (which show up in the boss fight later and PMCs during the rex segment)
All these really kill the potential, it interrupts the meat of the gameplay and it barely gets used to the fullest outside of the first mission.
Yeah the cutscenes are long but that's a separate thing and a staple of mgs, the cutscenes aren't even a problem, imo. There's always been a clear divide between cutscenes and gameplay in mgs games, you can just skip them and keep playing right away, unlike most games now where it's etched into the gameplay so it seems seamless and kills the pacing, mgs4 has a couple of them but it's really really brief, the first frog encounter after meeting meryl as an example.
I wish 4 had VR missions to make the most out of it, something I wished 3 had as well but at least 3 made the most of it's gameplay in the story, 4 doesn't. Sad part is they had the VR template already made, you can see it in the shooting range. Resources went to the MP i'm guessing. God imagine if 4 and 3 got VR missions, how much fun that would've been?
If MGS3 kept it lore friendly, it would've been in an old plane hangar instead of digital realm, though 3 also had a vr template ready in mgs3 with the cutscene selection area in subsistence. I would've been fine with that too, even if it's not lore friendly.

>>8674008
It's hard to think of the word Boss as a normal word again after MGS

>>8669594
Explain

>>8670382
That’s just a sequel tease, not a cliffhanger.

>>8669438
Dude, you stopped just right when it starts being good.

>>8668258
> lingering frustration from Phantom Pain which is justifiable I think, I haven't played MGSV yet but from what I hear story-wise it was unnecessary
It was unfinished. I think someone claiming to be part of the dev team posted on /v/ with details of what was cut/unfinished and it seemed legit.

If you've played Peace Walker, that game is essentially a prototype for MGS5. Some would say PW is better. I wouldn't go that far myself but there are definitely some things that are better about it.

> I'm not a fan of how Hayter was shafted from his role for it
As an old man who has been playing MG since MGS1 was new, I also prefer Hayter. He IS Snake/BB as far as I'm concerned. But, after listening to his own words in a couple interviews, it sounds like he was demanding a shit ton of money rather than he was shafted. In fact, he almost made it seem like he didn't really want the job.