/vr/ - Retro Games

>>8540785
The Black Parade will only be released in 2025. It's been 6 years now and the only thing they have to show is some ambience.
Delightful seems janky and gets the same stuff that made Thief Deadly Shadows weird/bad

>>8540785
>Gloomwood edition
dropped

>>8540975
>The Black Parade will only be released in 2025. It's been 6 years now and the only thing they have to show is some ambience.
Maybe they just don't want to spoil anything more substantial? Also, they said several times the campaign is very far along and they even mentioned they're doing internal test rounds.

>>8541205
they better not do the fucking faux-retro meme of forcing texture filtering off for their campaign in TBP
it was retarded in ravensreach and it will be retarded here too

>>8540990
This manchild can't handle the gloom of a reddit game

Gloomwood seems fine but I'm still looking for something visceral as thief. Gloomwood seems too reddit and gimmicky to be the next thief.
Also the next thief-like game should have a mission editor. That's non negotiable

>>8541217
Yeah. I would only accept texture filtering off if all the regular textures they're using were remade from the ground up. Ravensreach was constantly clashing its visuals

>>8541217
I highly doubt they would do that.

>>8541217
>>8541239
There are only two missions that do this to my knowledge and removing it takes 10 seconds tops, it's just removing a line from a text file and saving it.

>>8541234
best description of gloomwood i have seen is
>a bunch of superficial shit designed specifically to trick millennials into buying an otherwise mediocre game.

>>8541767
I truly hope we are all wrong about the game, otherwise it's just a damn shame that we only have 2 teams in the world working on thief successors and both of them are meh

This level, I can't put my finger on it but something about it feels very off. Anyway. What did the guard key even open? I had about six of them but never found out. Why were there cameras clustered in hallways where even if the alarm blasted for minutes no one would come? In the hallway next to the dome, were you supposed to destroy one of the two machines? I tried to find another way but couldn't, though when I returned they were for some reason patrolling side by side so I could slip past. But that felt like a lucky break rather than something you can wait for. What was the point of the exit to the roofs? So many questions.

Could anyone give me a list of well-known/highly-rated Fan Missions? Never played a single fan mission before.

>>8542407
https://www.thiefguild.com/fanmissions/?advanced_search=&series=&collection=&table=&page=&works=&work_lists=&sort_by=best&search=&released_from=all&released_to=all&genre=all

Generally you're pretty much golden with anything ranging from the high 9s to 7.50.

>>8542372
I am assuming you're on the spectrum because any reasonable person would have been able to figure out those answers. For example, you could have entered the bank from the rooftop.

stop making threads about this crappy game, you retards

>>8542475
love you too

>>8542475
Relax kid

>>8542465
Sorry man, I only got 1 PER. From the roof I genuinely didn't notice the crates. The missing window textures on the other hand made the place look like it was not meant to be explored.

>>8542407
Just scan Thiefguild for cool missions, some of the 7/10 missions are better than the 9.9/10 ones but the latter got higher scores because of some gimmick.

>>8541234
>too reddit
try to describe it again with using actual words. Please.

How do you even defend texture filtering? It makes everything look like a blurry barf.

>>8543908

>>8541217
Don't be such a whiner.

>>8542407
I think the best approach is for you to say what type of mission you're hungry for, or which original level you like best, and then people can recommend that style. There is too much variance even among the best FMs otherwise. Do you want a big mansion with only human guards? Did you like the dungeon exploration and monsters in Bonehoard? Was Life of the Party your favorite?

>>8543072
by understanding how texels work

When is Thief 5 or a new reboot coming?

>>8545162
Hopefully never.

>>8545162
When Microsoft buys Square and gives the IP to Arkane.

>>8545240
That would be nice! Idk if Arkane could pull it off completely but they would be our best chance in the AAA market

>>8545240
They fucked up Thief when they were still Ion Storm Austin, so NO.

>>8544032
I like all the types of missions with the exception of casing the joint. I'm not one of those gaylords who hates the supernatural stuff. It looks like there are tags on the thiefguild site the other Anons mentioned that describe the type of mission it is so I'll just refer to that to see what I'm in the mood for.

>>8545547
>I'm not one of those gaylords who hates the supernatural stuff.
Based beyond belief

I've run into some save corruption issue on Blackmail. Google tells me that I should restart and avoid a specific guard. Would ironmaning the rest of the level instead be a retarded idea, or is the problem going fix itself after this level?

Is Thief 2 allowed here? Not trying to derail, it's the only Thief game I have. Decided to finally give it a go after an unofficial update, HD update and 3-d sound fix. Should I up the difficulty past normal? A lot of rooms feel empty as if they should have guards/loot in them. Not the biggest fan of eye-spying room after room after the guards are knocked out, but at least it seems to limit you on the third mission, where I'm at now. The music is great and sound is much better after it's fixed.

>>8547392
Most people will tell you to play on Expert, since in addition to small changes in patrols and loot, it also adds additional objectives which is fun for the most part and encourages you to explore maps more thoroughly. I don't think it'll help with the empty feeling rooms, though; that might be a result of an engine limitation.

>>8547392
Thief 2 was rushed and some levels have areas that feel sparse. Also, a lot of the guards have long patrol paths over a wide area, so if you knock out a bunch of guards it can result in large quiet sections.

If you don't like searching for loot, do not play on Expert, because you'll end up resenting the loot requirements. Thief games are 1/3 stealth, 1/3 3D exploration/navigation, and 1/3 egg hunt. If you don't like hunting for little trinkets in tucked-away places, avoid Expert.

I think Normal is a little easy for most skilled players. I've been playing for years and years and I still play on Hard most of the time because I like to swordfight with the guards if I get caught.

>>8548459
>Thief 2 was rushed and some levels have areas that feel sparse.
That's irrelevant, no Thief game is meant to have loot in every single room.

>>8548967
I was trying to cover different explanations. Some areas are intentionally sparse, sure, but there are also areas like the top floor of the police station in Thief 2 that are like first drafts the level designer never got to polish.

>>8549119
There are some rough parts that would have probably been polished in a Thief 2 Gold (like Angelwatch with its staircase bug) but compared to its contemporaries like Deus Ex, there's a hell of a lot more polish regarding brushwork and level design.

>>8547392
>, HD update
don't

>>8547392
>A lot of rooms feel empty as if they should have guards/loot in them
I think that's more related to the philosophy of "build a real place before making it a level" that they had. Some places have rooms that should be there because it makes sense. A kitchen and a dressing room can be only that at times

Any of you fellas play Filcher? I bought it during the christmas sale because it was cheap but Im curious as to whether its a decent Thief clone or not.
In retrospect I dont know if I should have bothered buying it given that I dont think fan missions will ever get old to me.

>>8550252
It's alright but the lack of mantling or any real acrobatics limits the amount of approaches a ton.

>>8550269
Shame about no mantling, I've been replaying Gold this week, along with a bunch of other FMs, and I kept thinking how traversal might be one of the biggest reasons Thief is my favorite game, oh well it was cheap at least, I'll give it a playthrough.

>>8550252
Thought about buying it but ended up not going through with it. Theres a fun noir styled FM I've been playing called Waterfron Racket. Try it if you haven't already

>>8550323
>Waterfron Racket
Yeah its been on my FM list for a while now, I'll check it out.

>>8541205
Is that EYE Divine Cybermancy dev still working on it?

>>8550323
>>8550443
Oh Waterfront Racket...How I wish we had more FMs like these. There's Dracula as well right? A total conversion?

'Tis a bit long overdue, but done as promised. Don't overindulge yourself with this, as per truthful 90s TV reports: playing Thief makes you into one of the most deviant of kleptomaniacs. Given enough playtime, you may unconsciously find yourself deep inside your neighbour's attic -- stealing grandma's dirty letters from young days of glory and mouldy Berenstain comics, god forbid if it's someone's underwear.

First magnet link contains fan missions, patches and installers for you to go manual on all of this (29,60 GiB).
>magnet:?xt=urn:btih:64d8cc65e8e605446a076041da9c244c41bd1d27&dn=Thief%20collection

Second link contains pre-installed, ready-to-play classic Thief games (2.68 GiB).
TFix lite and plain NewDark were used to diminish any unwanted unofficial patch changes that deviate things from vanilla.
Additionally, there are OSM and FMDML folders with updated scripts and fixes for fan missions, USER.BND and CAM_EXT.cfg are also tweaked in some way. That's all what's important I think.
Drop mission archives inside the "missions" folder, Thief.exe will start FM launcher from the get-go and scan them.
>magnet:?xt=urn:btih:7075ad2ffa62709007878a4bd3c326db1a9393e2&dn=Thief%20portable

Which FM is this from?

>>8551991
Here are the same magnets but with tracker links
>magnet:?xt=urn:btih:64d8cc65e8e605446a076041da9c244c41bd1d27&dn=Thief%20collection&tr=https%3a%2f%2ftracker.nanoha.org%3a443%2fannounce&tr=https%3a%2f%2ftracker.lilithraws.cf%3a443%2fannounce&tr=https%3a%2f%2ftracker.iriseden.fr%3a443%2fannounce&tr=udp%3a%2f%2fopen.tracker.cl%3a1337%2fannounce&tr=udp%3a%2f%2ftracker.opentrackr.org%3a1337%2fannounce
>magnet:?xt=urn:btih:7075ad2ffa62709007878a4bd3c326db1a9393e2&dn=Thief%20portable&tr=udp%3a%2f%2fopen.tracker.cl%3a1337%2fannounce&tr=udp%3a%2f%2ftracker.opentrackr.org%3a1337%2fannounce&tr=https%3a%2f%2ftracker.nanoha.org%3a443%2fannounce&tr=https%3a%2f%2ftracker.lilithraws.cf%3a443%2fannounce&tr=https%3a%2f%2ftracker.iriseden.fr%3a443%2fannounce

I'll keep a look for suggestions, but feel free to mirror all of this and make changes in case of problems. Here is the source of disc images.
https://archive.org/details/ThiefTheDarkProjectUSA
https://archive.org/details/ThiefGoldUSA
https://archive.org/details/ThiefIITheMetalAgeUSA

>>8552024
>>8552024
Mine with staircases is taken from The Rebellion of the Builder 2, what's in your webm is probably from The Chalice of Souls

>>8551991
Thank you, kind stranger

Upload speed is either minuscule or nonexistent. I'm very sure that this connection is capable of more, so for now let's just download what is needed firstmost.

>>8550294
>how traversal might be one of the biggest reasons Thief is my favorite game
It's definitely one of my favorite reasons. I also love how logically simulated it is to the point where there is zero manipulation of direction in the air and jumping is just an upward force applied to the character.

>>8543908
>>8543925
These fuckers have just about filtered me. I almost quit on the second mission because of them, and now it seems like they're going to be the main enemy in the third (I've barely started it).

>>8553317
You can sneak past them just like guards, holy water arrows, fire arrows, mines, and flashbombs permanently kill them, they can be knocked down and reset back to their "sleep" state, and they are slow.

>>8540785
>And a Russian Thief-clone game that I forgot the name of

huh?

>>8541234
>too reddit
What does that even mean?

>>8553457
And don't forget that they are really quick to forget the player too, anon. About the only thing they'll investigate across a good distance is a mine explosion, otherwise you can jump around them and run past, and as soon as you step into the shadows or turn a corner they'll forget you existed.

>>8540785
I just finished The Violent End of Duncan Malveine. A comfy mansion FM with random elements, an engaging storyline, and a cool & creepy sidequest to it. Lots of secrets to discover too, it was certainly fun although the sidequest did get a bit tedious by the end (took me over 5 hours to complete). I still enjoyed it a lot overall, very memorable FM and I really recommend.

>>8551991
>torrent
Good shit anon. I remember your post from the previous thread, I'm glad you could come through in the end. Will be looking into this later.

>>8553585
It's rare to know something that 4channers don't know. I know what he's talking about. It's a Russian game that doesn't even have a proper name, it's only a working title. Too early
Rn it doesn't even have pictures. Our best shot is what
with my gf (male) lady glinny and her game Delightfyl

>>8553457
>>8553823
I don't find them to be a challenge, just a nuisance. My main gripe is that they feel totally out of place, and the game threw them in on the second fucking level, with them also being the main enemy in the third. On top of that, some of them are impossible to sneak past, as they will always wake up if you get too close (regardless of your movement speed), and there isn't always enough room to avoid doing so. Having to hear those bastards moaning for potentially the whole rest of the mission really grates on my ears. I'm on the fourth mission now, so hopefully I won't be seeing any more zombies or other non-human enemies for a while.

>>8555680
>My main gripe is that they feel totally out of place
They really don't. In fact they make the world feel that much more mysterious, cold and hostile.

>>8555680
>My main gripe is that they feel totally out of place
stopped reading there

>>8555680
>I'm on the fourth mission now, so hopefully I won't be seeing any more zombies or other non-human enemies for a while.
I got some bad news for you.

>>8555680
just bhop away from them lol

Holy fucking shit. I want to bang the Hammerite Haunt so bad. I can't stand it anymore. Every time I go to the Haunted Cathedral I get a massive erection. I've seen literally every stained glass window there is of him in the Bonehoard. My dreams are nothing but constant fucking sex with that skeleton. I'm sick of waking up every evening with six nuts in my robes and knowing that those are nuts that should've been painting his bones even whiter. I want him to enrich his bones with calcium.

Fuck, my fucking landlord caught me with a golden skull. I'd polished it with my water arrows and went to town. He hasn't said a word to me in 10 hours and I'm worried he's going to ask 5000 gold for rent again. I might not ever get to see the Haunt again.

>>8557423
this may be a pasta but it planted an idea in my head

>>8540785
What do you guys think about The Dark Mod? Is it the definitive future to Thief until now or just some gimmicky conversion mod?
I'm about to start playing some missions and I gotta say that TDM has a decent collection of dedicated FM creators. People making campaigns, sequels, etc.
My main thing that makes me itch about the dark mod is the physics and movement. It feels janky, heavy and at the same time, weightless in some moments (when you blackjack someone and they just ragdoll)
The atmosphere tho, is great. Specially when you consider it's the usually dated Unreal/Doom 3 2000's wallpaper engine.

>>8559461
It's neither. It's an open source side project by Thief fans who were disappointed at Deadly Shadows' tiny maps and gimped gameplay that takes advantage of Doom 3's dynamic lighting and extensive map editor.

>>8540785
When I was very young, Karras took me away from the foundry mother and said. Thou art the child of my endeavors, follow me and thou shalt inherit the earth.

>>8559479
What is the future of Thief?
Both for the lore and where a proper 3rd or 4rth game should be and take you to.

If I could, I probably would take the ending of Deadly Shadows as canon with him and the girl and also with the dismantling of the Keepers(but kinda ignore that bullshit about the hag). Then, 20 years later in game time we would have a new another protagonist that we never met before, a young thief that is working with one of the main engineers at the Inventors' institute (a University-like institute that are permitted by the new government to act as long as they are not doing crazy shit like the mechanist) pulling some stuff out of the ruins of the precursors and going after the mechanists research sites for the sake of "science and progress" but the whole story that we played through the first 3 games is kinda being told in a very different way. Through a very particular point of view of your employer. With time, the player would find some different point of views with the exploration, either through haunted (magically or tecnologically haunted) ruins and also by stealing documents from influential people around the city, you would discover some truths and start to have second thoughts about your main game objective. I'd also like to incorporate Erin (or whatever the hell garrett's apprentice is called)as one of the side characters in the game. Being there in some events and also ith her point of view about the past and history of the city and at the end, after everything, we would discover that some people are looking for the lost mechanist's techs, the keepers are still there but now they're split into different groups working with whatever magic is still left and at the very end, we meet and old Garrett that tells you that things were very different than what people like to believe and that the future might hold even darker things than events long past.

>>8559479
>>8559794
Cont.
And what is the future of Thief-like games?
Is there enough market for a regular sized stealth project like Thief for these new trying times?
Are Gloomwood and Delightfyl the only things that we have close to the original games?

Skacky I know you lurk these threads. When the fuck is black parade now that you've left the wrath aeon of ruin dev team?

Does Melan make FMs anymore?

>>8541234
>Also the next thief-like game should have a mission editor. That's non negotiable
I like how we've gone from expecting 'modding tools' to
>I hope they give a mission editor
What an awful timeline.

>>8560379
Yeah, bro... the world is not the same as it was.
All changed after 9/11

>>8560354
Yes, he did a huge one for Thief 1's anniversary. No idea what's in store for him in the future but as he's a big TDM fan, it might be something in there.

>>8559794
I've come to the conclusion that based on LGS' concepts and hints at what they wanted to do with T3, I would have been disappointed by their T3 as well unless they scrapped the open world concept so as far as the future is concerned, FMs and other games'(including TDM) homages to Thief are the way to go for me. Any official content will not have the inspiration that '90s LGS had with a diverse set of people (and not the SJW meme definition of that) mixed with some excellent MIT hacker-era programmers that used tech to do something other than just push fancier graphical renderers, so anything with the Thief label will be a disappointment.

>>8559798
The difficulty in making a True Thief Successor(tm) is that the game's systems are not easy to reproduce and those systems are the reason why we can have Fan Missions with so much variety 20+ years after the game was made. While some games have reused concepts present in Thief like Stim/Response (Prey 2017, allegedly BotW), they also need to have a proper sound propagation system (something that wasn't very good in Prey) and then something equivalent to Thief's tagged schema system which is why guards have so many responses in different alert states to various events. This is a tall order for your average indie developer and Thief TDP had a budget of $3 million back in the '90s and the developers were so obsessed with making the game they practically lived at the office for most of the project.
Here's some interesting/tangentially related reads on some of the stuff under the hood of Thief/SS2 as well as working on TDP in general:
https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3355/postmortem_thief_the_dark_project.php
https://rosodudemods.wordpress.com/2020/04/27/devblog-3-system-shock-2-modding-with-newdark/

>>8560497
>>8560568
Very insightful, guys. I appreciate you guys taking time to write something here.
Personally I would have liked the co-op system they wish they had implemented. But yeah that could have changed the atmosphere for a bit (sometimes I don't even play Thief FMs while on discord with friends bcs it changes the mood and atmosphere too much. it gets too friendly)
And yeah, It's a damn shame that people lost interest in something as a more... grounde(???) stealth approach. No eyes that can see through walls or something. Just listen and see. People like to talk about immersive sims but does this name even mean anything nowadays? Stealth as a complete game gere does seem to be dying to become just a new playstyle in modern games.

>>8561036
To me, the only definition of immersive sim that really holds any weight is "games like LGS used to make" because they never really made more than two games in the same genre. What tied all their games together was attention to detail, and believable simulation in ways they thought would make the game cool. There was never a checklist of things their games had to include with preplanned routes or anything which makes all their games very different from Deus Ex where Ion Storm did design paths with certain playstyles in mind. I also think a lot of veteran LGS devs have "lost the plot" and don't really understand what their original goals were in mind when you see people like Tim Stellmach talking in an interview about not being able to see through walls in Thief as more of an engine limitation that modern games don't have to deal with than a feature. That's not even going into the abomination that was Underworld Ascendant.

>>8559461
I don't want to say anything bad about The Dark Mod because the amount of work put into it--and making it eventually standalone--is really impressive. I think the rope arrows and mantling are great. Compared to Deadly Shadows, I think it comes off quite well; I'd rather play a TDM mission than Deadly Shadows any day. The biggest issue I have with it is that I just don't think the lighting looks very good, despite it being fancier tech than the old Dark Engine, I think old Thief lighting looks more dramatic and cool, and dark places are much darker. TDM maps look like dim lighting everywhere with bright pools around the light sources.

>>8561058
I think the issue with TDM's lighting is not the stencil shadows themselves, but the sort of sheen that every surface seems to have. It's not a problem in Doom 3 because the whole game takes place in sci-fi techbases but it feels off in a semi-medieval world. I don't know enough about shaders or TDM to pinpoint the problem, but I assume it's something that could be fixed with some engine changes, or mitigated with mapping talent. It also helps that Thief cheats and has ambient lighting to keep unlit areas from being pitch black.

https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151620&p=2482574#post2482574
Cool concept for a competition, hoping for more Lost Among the Forsakens and less The Builder's Paradises.

what are the combat advantages of a sledgehammer over a sword?

>>8561281
It's blessed and can kill undead.

>>8561287
You just know

>>8561291
know what?

>>8561085
I love them both but I gotta say that the builder's paradise proposes a kickass ending. Very much like Army Of Darkness alternative ending.

Theoretically, what would the prefect enemy AI in stealth games be like? Where would it fall on the abstraction-realism scale, how clever or reactive could it get before it becomes detrimental to the gameplay?

>>8562475
enemies can get spooked by the sounds of other enemy footsteps. guards will be alerted to other guards unless they "know" each other's routes.

Anyone else think Flash Bombs are underpriced and a bit too effective?

>>8563054
No but I think it's a crime most T2 FMs don't let you take the scouting orb.

>>8562286
Builder's Paradise was way too big for my liking. I played it up until reaching/killing Karras, which I had to do twice because one time he teleported out of his locked area and I just used my bow on him. I'll take the original's antennas scattered on the map over the massive labyrinth with no automap.

I haven't played these games in like eight years, and back then it was my first time and I absolutely loved them. Can you guys give me any tips on how to get it running on windows 10? God I miss my old windows 7 system, all my favorite games worked on it.

>>8564838
Get Tfix Lite for Thief Gold and T2Fix (Lite is optional, I use it but there's no egregious shit forced on you in T2Fix). You can configure things in cam_ext.cfg if you want to increase antialiasing or something.
https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134733
https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149669

>>8563054
I don't think they're underpriced--I never buy more than 1, maybe 2 (unless the mission gives me a ton of spending money which is a separate balance issue). I always like to have one as my "get of out jail free" card but I spend most of my money on moss and water arrows after that. Maybe a healing potion if it's a tomb-raiding map.

As for effectiveness, yes, they're a bit OP, but if you don't cheese them (e.g. don't run around and gather up 4 guards first to maximize your free knockouts) they serve their intended purpose, which is to give you an easy escape or "reset" instead of quickloading.

I try to minimize the times I load my game in general, and I play on Hard first time through a mission, and I like them the way they are. They're also a nice juicy reward to give a player for exploration; designers should be stingy with them.

>>8564849
Thank you very much, anon!

Question Taffers:
Do you play with EAX enabled?
Which solution(s) do you prefer, and why?

>>8565689
I use OpenAL.

>>8560379
If I remember history correctly, the release of DromEd to the public hinged on how much LGS liked fan missions made by 4 or so people?

>>8557423
Most disturbing post i've read in a while

How would you rate T2X? I'm playing it for the second time. my first time was back when it was released and I was in the middle school. All I remember is how awesome the train mission was (because moving train!), but then my saves got corrupted and I couldn't bring myself to get to the point where I was again. I'm nearing the end of Redistribution and I like what I see so far, but what about you taffers? Do you like it? Do you hate it? Can you recommend me some must-play campaigns?

>>8566782
I don't like it. I get that it was impressive for it's time as a big TC mod but the custom assets are ugly as hell and I found the first couple of missions boring. Some newer campaigns worth playing are Death's Cold Embrace, Godbreaker, and Gems of Provenance.

>>8566795
>Death's Cold Embrace, Godbreaker, and Gems of Provenance
What are they like?

>>8566803
The latter two are shorter campaigns composed of around 3 missions with some cool maps. DCE is a full sized campaign with a changing hub area and you going to new areas. The plot is irrelevant and basically a play on Romeo and Juliet but the atmosphere is top tier and it has one of my favorite Hammerite missions of all time.

>>8566813
Thanks, downloading DCE, I'll try it after T2X

>>8566782
I like T2X quite a bit. None of the missions are the best the community has to offer in that respective style, but they're all pretty good (some very good--I really liked Down Among Dead Men for example) and it's nice to hear voice acting even if it's amateur at times. I think it's cool that it exists.

I rarely play campaign FMs but I remember The Black Frog having a decent amount of polish and production value (4-5 missions, I think)? Gems of Provenance is superb for that oldschool Thief 1 weird atmosphere but isn't super story-heavy, it's more like a handful of really great T1 levels strung together with related objectives.

>>8566813
Different anon here, I just finished DCE last week. I didn't care for the later missions that reuse the maps, but the opening city mission has awesome snowy atmosphere, the mansion was cool the first time, and I agree the Hammerite mission is great.

>>8568375
It didn't bother me because it was their attempt at making a hub area in T2 and I loved seeing all the little details and subplots as the campaign went on. The scripting was top tier as well with servants and guards turning lights on and off when going into rooms for the mansion and being able to turn off lights with arrows and walking through the foyer is very satisfying.

tfw you will never live in The City

>>8568397
unironically looks nothing like The City(tm)

>>8568403
Well I disagree. Its the same old city, just a couple of hundred years into the future

>>8568423
>a couple hundred years into the future
Thief 2 already had elements of the modern era. If anything, this is a regression.

>>8568430
thi4f devs made a lot of mistakes, but their take on the City was definitely not one of them.... if you think this looks bad then you're just being a contrarian. ffs if the guys making Broken Goddess decided to recycle some of these locales for their campaign then it can't be that bad.

>>8568451
It doesn't matter if they recycled some locales, there's a Skacky mission based off some Thiaf mission but aside from the very broad premise, it has nothing to do with it. This doesn't look like Thief to me, just some generic victorian city.

>>8568451
Yes and no. Honestly the artstyle of Thief 2014 is pretty good on its own merits (baring Garrett's fashion sense - dude looks like he should be hanging out with Kate Beckinsale in an Underworld movie) but it only really looks good in screenshots. When you actually play the game the cluttered artstyle puts you at a disadvantage because it's fucking terrible at communicating what's actually interactable and what's just environmental clutter. Meaning you're constantly spamming the focus button like an epileptic in order to figure out where you're supposed to go and what you can actually do at which point it becomes clear how barren a lot of the levels actually are. And that's not even the worst of Thief 2014's issues.

>>8568451
Looks incredibly generic. Doesn't give me Thief vibes at all. Like the other anon said, I can just go to artstation, type in 'victorian city', and get pretty much the same thing.

Tfw You will never live at Grandmauden's

>>8568451
Eh, the thi4f city is alright on its own but isn't a good rendition of The City.
The city was packed to the gills with cold gray stone that made it feel like it would be a nightmare to live there in the winter, I've always enjoyed this hostile look and felt like it was a great way to give it a distinct personality.
The reboot's ubiquitous wood is more realistic but much less interesting by comparison.

>tfw you will never live in the cozy mansion from the Nosferatu FM
It hurts.

>>8564750
Absolutely this
Builders Paradise was a neat idea, and it drew me in really hard initially but the labyrinth and keyhunting really killed it for me

>>8568397
SKIP
--------------------
HOLD [LEER]

>>8569520
great FM

>tfw you will never live

>>8569582
Bran Castle is real, don't let your dreams be dreams.

>>8561281
Blunt weapons fuck up guys in armor because a plate of steel wont stop the inertia of a hammer breaking your arms.
Also kills undead.

>>8568423
>>8568451
I hate it honestly. Reminds me of Dishonored. Just looks soulless and shit all around.

>>8571120
>Also kills undead.
This reminds me, how exactly do the Hammerite Haunts wield those hammers of theirs? The Haunts in T1 attack you with swords, while in T2 they attack you with the same giant hammers that normal non-undead Hammerite guards use. So how exactly does that work? Arent those giant hammers meant to be blessed against the undead, meaning that Haunts couldn't possibly use them? Prolly just a minor discrepancy but I'm so confused right now...

>>8570043
>Builders Paradise was a neat idea
I liked that FM at the very start because of the premise alone, it really seemed like a cool "underground facility with creepy shit gone wrong" type of mission at the beginning (I'm a sucker for that kind of setting in vidya). But then you go up the elevator and it takes you to where see the rust gas'd orange sky City from the outside, and then you realize the mission takes place on some weird giant Mechanist chapel on the City's surface, instead of being deep below ground on some twisted Mechanist underground complex. Kinda lost a bit of interest after that, since the setting was not what I was led to believe what it was and I just didn't like that. Plus the mission itself shits itself soon after anyway, it just becomes a slog to play through and everything around the factory section is kinda bad. Just got too big and different for my tastes, I guess.

>>8571162
All these FMs that try to push the engine past its limits try too hard with gimmicks over just making a good Thief map in my opinion. If you're having to stop using the optimize button in DromEd because your map has so many brushes it's time to stop.

Anybody got this image in a higher resolution? The pic is a comparison of a base game painting in Thief 1 vs the memey Trickster "painting" that the retarded creator of the HD mod replaced it with. Havent found a higher resolution version in the archives, if anyone here can post it i'll be very grateful

>>8571196
I disagree that Builder's Paradise is one of those missions. It's very cleanly built and isn't jammed full of HD models or anything like that, and it's not more convoluted than many popular older FMs. I like the adventure game-style progression and that's always been somewhat popular in the community. Complaining about it is as silly as people complaining about undead missions.

>>8571350
It is exactly what I described, they blew the optimize limit by a ton of brushes. It also has some other egregious shit like an area with ~60 enemy AI and if you alert them the game becomes a slideshow. I'd rather play something like Down in the Old Vault than another one of these bloated missions. And to compare it to older missions is dishonest when OldDark forced mappers to work with much harsher limitations that would have made Builder's Paradise a smaller, more constrained FM.

After five days I have finished my ironman playthrough of TMA.
Since I now have clear memory of what the missions are like, I am going to rate each one.

Running Interference: 6/10, Decent mission, not a good first mission.
Shipping... and Receiving: 2/10, No reason to like it. Overly huge, tedious to go from tenant to tenant, each tenants room feels like an amusement park attraction, the spice bags objective doesn't add challenge, instead adds tedium. I have never seen a good defense of this mission.
Framed: 10/10, Both the strongest gameplay and atmosphere in the game.
Ambush!: 4/10, Again no reason to like it, at least has less flaws than Shipping... and Receiving.
Eavesdropping: 8/10, Nothing to add, just a solid mission.
First City Bank and Trust: 9/10, Needed stronger atmosphere, if it had that, it would be better than The Sword.
Blackmail: 7/10, Nothing much to this mission.
Trace the Courier: 1/10, a filthy consequence of rushed development.
Trail of Blood: 6/10, Also nothing much to this mission.
Life of the Party: 9/10, The rooftops have life, but no party. Angelwatch has a party, but no life.
Precious Cargo: 7/10, Suddenly they remembered Thief is supposed to have hard/expert objectives. And they put it in the mission with the most main objectives?
Kidnap: 4/10, Boring.
Casing the Joint: 3/10, gee, walking between rooms with no guards? Weeee....
Masks: 6/10, still has the unguarded rooms problem, but now there are cool parts like the ballroom and exhibitions.
Sabotage at Soulforge: 2/10, Test of everything the player has learned my ass. Sound doesn't matter the smallest bit, rooms are so big I can walk past enemies while well lit, the stealth challenges are noticeably gamey, it feels like a place built for Garrett to sneak through, Karras yelling at you gets old fast. And what kind of Thief game ends with IKEA?

>>8571458
>IKEA
I don't remember it well enough to know what you mean by this. What do you mean by this?

>>8571467
Making the beacon in the Factory Bays C, A, D, E.

>>8571458
not gonna read any of these gay takes

>>8571419
You may be right about the brush count, but I disagree that it's "gimmicky". It's rather traditional and old-school. And it ran well on my old machine, other than the outdoor fog/ash area. I did not experience a slideshow situation but I don't remember alerting 60 AIs. I don't think it's overdetailed or an abuse of NewDark.

>>8568451
Yes it objectively looks good, but when compared to THE City from the original Thief games it looks so bland and uninteresting, its lacking all the character that went into the original City

>>8571146
The haunts had weird changes in general in the transition from thief to thief 2. Their outfits were slightly changed and half their audio was removed

>>8571458
Based, the only one I don't agree with you about is Trail of Blood because I'm a gigantic sucker for sob stories

>>8571501
The primary issue with BP is its huge and annoying to traverse, coupled with its retarded keyhunt objectives that nearly made me drop it, because after searching for one key I missed with no indication of where it could be in this huge ass mission, and no real walkthrough because its a fan mission, I was at my wits end
Ended up finishing it anyway, but I still think its a deeply flawed FM, purely from a gameplay perspective
>>8571196
Again, this
I actually just replayed Gold for the first time in years, I was worried I'd end up disappointed or undewhelmed by the OMs after spending years and years playing FMs but I was pleasantly surprised at how most of the OM's are still a cut above the fan content, they're simple and elegant in the best way, and it was refreshing after playing a lot of bloated and overly long FMs (like Builders Paradise)

>>8571458
>hating shipping and receiving and soulforge.
No thanks. I am unsubscribing from your blog

>>8571702
I would like to hear your rebuttal

>>8571693
Not that anon but I thought Trail of Blood was extremely frustrating. I'm in love with all that supernatural pagan mumbo-jumbo. Searching for giant rubies to perform a ritual and open a portal was right up my alley, and then it turns out to lead into The Maw and you'd think they are doing this to finally do that area justice. But what do I get? Another goddamn linear corridor. It's like they are doing this on purpose.

>>8571704
>No reason to like it.
Wrong
>Overly huge, tedious to go from tenant to tenant,
Not really
>each tenants room feels like an amusement park attraction,
Not a bad thing. Also, you've clearly never been in a multi use building.
>The spice bags objective doesn't add challenge, instead adds tedium.
It's a game where you loot stuff. The spice bags are just additional loot.
I have never seen a good defense of this mission. Your laundry list isn't impressive.

I have never seen a good criticism. It's always whining from someone too impatient or too autistic to appreciate the level's flair and setpieces.

>Test of everything the player has learned my ass.
It's better at testing the player than maw of chaos or half the other levels in the franchise.
>Sound doesn't matter the smallest bit, rooms are so big I can walk past enemies while well lit,
No?
>the stealth challenges are noticeably gamey, it feels like a place built for Garrett to sneak through,
It's a video game
>Karras yelling at you gets old fast.
Autism
>And what kind of Thief game ends with IKEA?
Weak attempt at ending your post with a shitty "gotcha".

>>8571772
I will skip the ones that are either insults or plain disagreeing with no real argument.

>Not a bad thing. Also, you've clearly never been in a multi use building.
Maybe. But this is completely ruined by how long it takes to get between them, which makes them feel so separate and like an attraction.
>It's a game where you loot stuff. The spice bags are just additional loot.
The point of the extra objectives is to make the player go to a dangerous area they wouldn't have to go to otherwise. Also, isn't the loot objective supposed to be the one for extra loot?

>It's better at testing the player than maw of chaos or half the other levels in the franchise.
Look, just because it's better than something else doesn't make it good.
>It's a video game
Didn't most Thief levels feel like real places, unlike Sabotage at Soulforge?

Let me elaborate this one:
>Sound doesn't matter the smallest bit
Soulforge Cathedral is almost all stone flooring, where it's metal, it can be avoided with such ease. The rooms are so big and the enemies so far away, that the enemies could only really alert to the loudest sounds like running or jumping on metal. (I ironmanned this mission today, so I remember it well.)

>>8571694
I still find the OMs enjoyable but I also believe they've been surpassed by the best FMs. I mean that's kinda like saying the original Doom maps are better than anything that came after. Like, what are the odds, you know?

Except for Bonehoard, because you can't have true old school D&D feeling without that weirdo old style of mapping. New stuff is too polished and friendly.

>>8571936
They haven't been surpassed by FMs. FMs generally lack the production values of the originals or a cohesive story where the sum of their parts can be more than individual missions.

>>8571936
I largely agree with the other anon who replied, sure FMs have pushed the engine to its limit, expanded on ideas introduced in OMs (all the Thieves Highway-esque levels, verticality and so on), and introduced their own neat ideas and mechanics, but nothing will surpass the OM's for me, they're (comparitive to FMs) simple and overall smaller, but they're so perfectly designed and are all quality
I love a lot of FM's but I will admit I do consistently get exhausted by them, especially the more dense and sprawling ones, or the ones that keep extending the objectives list or expanding an already giant area with more area
I never find myself getting exhausted from the OMs, I can play many back to back and not grow tired, its a real testament to how good Looking Glass are when it comes to game design
For all the bells and whistles FMs add into their missions, the simple elegance of Looking Glass's OMs will never be topped

>>8572159
>>8571987
OMs have voice acting and story, sure. But LGS employees were just dudes with a level editor. They didn't have some magic insight or talent. I think it's a very strange opinion to say that the people who made the first very first attempts also happened to be the ones to make the best levels of all time and despite DECADES of follow-up attempts, no one has ever managed to pass that high water mark. That's pretty suspicious.

>>8572263
>That's pretty suspicious
What, do you think I'm some paid shill for a company that went under over 2 decades ago? Whats suspicious about my opinion?
Like I said I do love a lot of FMs, they're fantastic, and I dont think I'll ever really tire of playing endless Thief fan content, and I also think its a perfectly understandable opinion to think that FMs have surpassed the OMs, but I personally dont, at least not entirely.
I'll admit that I think Into the Odd might just be my favorite Thief mission ever made, OMs included, so I guess I dont entirely disagree with you, but upon my recent playthrough of Gold, I found something just so perfect and elegant about Looking Glasses OMs, its hard to put into words but it is something FMs lack, in my opinion.

>>8572263
You're unable to see the forest for the trees and why a cohesive experience that merges storytelling with gameplay beats out a string of unconnected levels that are rehashes of the same couple of plots.

>>8572429
Also this, yeah
Briefings add a lot to a mission for me, and FMs have never come close to replicating them
Sure they get that one nasally guy to try and do a shit Garrett impression every now and then but that just takes me out of it more I actually rather just reading the Briefing in the readme or whatever

>>8572393
not suspicion of your motives (or anyone else's), suspicion of your criteria

>>8571458
>2/10 for shipping and recieving
That's way too harsh. Yeah maybe the second building or pirate ship is too much but it's not a fucking 2.

>>8572552
Suspicious of what though? Having good taste?

>>8572457
You people are never satisfied.

>>8571162
Curious, bcs to me the rust gas'd orange sky City was the moment that I got hooked on the mission. I agree that sometimes the mission gets too key hunty and there are no hints about items location but the setting/story to me is the best part. The City turned into sand. "...Now what?"

>>8573107
>>8572429
>>8572457
>>8572670
No, bro. 4channers are never satisfied. Good to laugh with but never good to talk with

>>8552030
>>8551991
Based, gonna seed this one for a long time

>>8557423
Golden.

>>8573107
>>8573195
Did you make a bunch of FMs or something? You seem more riled up about this opinion than you should be.
As for not being satisfied (if I'm reading into this correctly), I obviously dont expect FMs to have briefings, game length stories or high tier VA work, but the OMs having all these things does add a lot to my enjoyment, and thus I prefer them.
I'm sorry man, I'm sure whatever FM you made was great.

>>8572457
I like how some FMs have "playable briefings", so instead of a cinematic you get a really small map (usually garrets room or something) with a letter or something telling you about the mission. feels much more immersive

>>8573634
I know I've played at least one FM that does this, but I cant remember which.
I do like that though, yeah.

>>8573705
Sturmdrang peak and nosferatu are the only ones that come to mind

>>8573315
Anyone who has made an FM should have a greater appreciation for the OMs with how they manage to have interesting architecture and layouts with extremely tight polygon budgets.

>>8572457
>Sure they get that one nasally guy to try and do a shit Garrett impression every now and then but that just takes me out of it more I actually rather just reading the Briefing in the readme or whatever
Wonder if one of these would help https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdBgdf9D6B8

I think why TDP always stuck to me despite being rough around the edges is the fact that a lot of games with strong narratives like Thief have the same predictable beats. It's even worse for newer games. How many times do you start a game where you're slowly dripfed information about the world with a neutered version of the game until it decides to finally start and the game changes completely? Bonus points if there's some elaborate piece of machinery or monster moving that you'll never see again because it's a cinematic set piece. It's not even that it's slow it's that it's the same god damn sequence and it's so jarring yet it's everywhere. It rips me out of the game and there are 100s of things like this.

Meanwhile in Thief 1 it throws you off your game so hard. You can't tell whats going to happen but it's not completely random, generic you could even argue. It's a hard filter for most who play games with their brain on autopilot but it's what made the game so captivating for me.

>>8574181
Replaying the game you'll start noticing how well the plot is set up if you pay attention. The pictures of the trickster and builder adorning the walls of most mansions, the messages back and forth describing the pagans and some woman named Viktoria, the cryptic imagery in the cutscenes starts making sense and you see it's showing the Trickster being driven out...

>>8573213
keep it seeding, Brother Anon, because thy brother finds himself in a tricky situation. And for that, I'll only be able to download Brother Taffer's torrent late this week.
May the Builder be with thee

>>8573830
And this is part of why I was so blown away on my replay of Gold and realised the OMs wont be topped, for being the very first Missions created with Dromed, the OMs are so fucking well made.

can we all take a second to appreciate the fact that thief had 7 arrow varieties and each on had a different and viable use?

>>8575428
For me, it's using broadheads to press buttons and distract guards.

Never realized there's a keeper watching you in Life of the Party.

>>8575478
There's another one near the end of the Thieves Highway that you can nearly catch, he even leaves you a note.

>>8575428
For me its the rope arrow
When I was a dumb kid who bought Thief Gold on a whim and knew nothing about it, the rope arrow was what instantly solidified it as a classic, and its been my favorite game ever since, the freedom of movement that the rope arrows offer is just so fucking fantastic to me, my absolute favorite item in any video game

>>8575434
For me, it's using a moss arrow to turn off a light switch silently.

>>8575657
water arrows work too, but broadhead arrows are free

>>8575478
Keepers are fags.
Their whole order needs to be knocked down a peg

>>8575816
Love their characterization in the first game, second game already starts having elements that ruin some of the mystery, and the third game just sucks in that regard.

>>8575834
Nah, nah. Secrative smug bastards factions who think they're better than anyone else get the rope. Imagine maintaining a forever war between the pagans and hammers while thinking you're providing a service, let alone loading off all your issues onto some guy who wants nothing to do with you.

>>8575659
broadhead arrows make noise though. CLUNK

>>8575834
Yeah they were cool. It wasn't even really clear what their role was. Garrett was kinda getting a ton of peaks behind the curtain he shouldn't have and the keepers kinda came off like a group of stealth autists who centered around that. When it got into the prophecy shit it got really gay.

>>8575846
That wasn't really their role in the first game. They got progressively gayer as the series went on. First game they were pretty ambiguous, second game they started going hard into the prophecy, third game they were just retarded. it even turned out they weren't making a difference at all

>>8575903
Third game doesn't really count when only a couple original devs were involved and Terri Brosius was working remotely. She said in some recent documentary that she never felt as connected with Ion Storm as she did with LGS where they were basically living at the office and the game was their life.

>>8575920
I don't get the hate for 3. having a mysterious old hag as a villain is pure genius, and I love the way the story builds up her character, like in that book you find in one of the first missions, that mentions a folk tale about a creepy old woman sneaking into childrens bedrooms and kidnapping them. I also like how the keepers are shown to be a decadent organization unable to accept that change is inevitable (an idea further expanded upon in thief 4) there are some really awesome missions too like the ship full of zombies, the clock tower, the museum, etc. you can also explore the city in between missions and even choose the order in which to do certain things which IMO is awesome since the maps don't feel as disconnected as they did in the previous games, it really helps create the illusion that they all take place in the same universe, making the setting more believable and tangible, like its a place where people actually live and go about their business every day. sadly it was developed with console limitations in mind which is why the levels are so tiny and the npcs are so few.

I love everything about the Thief games

>>8576036
For me its just forgettable and the writting took a hit
I can only really remember the seaside mansion and the asylum and even then I barely remember either, and I've played 3 more recently than 1 or 2
I also dislike the engine, level design, hub and so on, its just disappointing
Some neat ideas but overall not great
I also hate what they did with the keepers and the enforcers or whatever felt like pure fanfiction garbage, they alone ruined the keepers for me.

>>8576036
>I don't get the hate for 3. having a mysterious old hag as a villain is pure genius, and I love the way the story builds up her character, like in that book you find in one of the first missions, that mentions a folk tale about a creepy old woman sneaking into childrens bedrooms and kidnapping them
It's just the trickster rebranded but nowhere near as subtle or well done. When I found that book I knew for a fact it would show up later.

>>8575846
The City comes across as a place where many forces exist in a volatile equilibrium. The Keepers are there to stop the balance from tipping too far in one direction and Thief 1 and 2 literally show you what happens when one extreme wins out. You don't see Keepers intervening in daily happenings, they are not the Illuminati. They only try to stop large scale disasters. Garrett who joins forces pragmatically when things go too far is essentially a Keeper in denial in these games.

what would happen if the hammers proper gained too much power?

>>8577517
No more zombie missions, as all the undead will be smited.

How could the hag been executed better?
To me, she's always had more of a Grimm Brothers vibe. Something that preys predominantly on children and weak.

>>8577565
A better voice would be a good start.
Neither did she sound old or intimidating.

>>8577570
fair enough. Terri voices too many thief characters as is.

>>8575487
I'd seen this one before, but never the first one in the window.

>>8577550
Thief's world seems way too big for that. There's still going to be some zombies in an obscure abandoned area no one even remembers existing. Even at the height of his power Karrass' master plan only really affected the city itself. He did some raids on the Pagans but the alternate dimension was still relatively safe.

>>8577565
>she's always had more of a Grimm Brothers vibe
I think that's what they were going for it doesn't fit the keepers. Going with the idea of an original keeper everyone forgot about is great but she comes off way more like a pagan than a keeper. She is basically female trickster but glyphs instead of nature. The whole glyph magic thing was kinda retarded in Thief 3 anyways. They could've gone with the actual greatest thief of all time that time forgot that hoarded all the best tools and tricks, being the ultimate rival to garrett which would fit the keepers better too.

>>8577517
The Hammers are too based to gain too much power, that's why they told Karras to fuck off.

>>8577602
> Going with the idea of an original keeper everyone forgot about is great but she comes off way more like a pagan than a keeper.
If we were to interpret Karras and Constantine of being the worst extremes of their respective factions, how could you change the Hag to be the same? Not necessarily an "ultimate keeper or thief", just someone who embodies their worst aspects. Aloof? Controlling? Secretive? Fatalist?

>being the ultimate rival to garrett which would fit the keepers better too
That would need a shit ton more build up to be done properly. I wouldn't to it with the Hag, personally, even if she did have better writing.

I just found out that Emil Pagliarulo, lead writer and lead designer of Fallout 3, is listed as a designer in the Thief 2 credits.

What the fuck?

>>8577602
>original keeper everyone forgot
was that a thing with her? my deadly shadows experience is pretty minimal

>>8577714
>lead designer of Fallout 3, is listed as a designer in the Thief 2 credits.
I think "lead designer" would apply to level design.

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4003/exploring_a_devastated_world_emil_.php
he's apparently also worked with ion storm austin. I guess he was probably involved with deus ex a little.

>>8577732
If we had to guess, which Thief 2 levels did he design?

>>8577714
He did Life of the Party and Precious Cargo and used to be a games journalist before that. He's a perfect example of the Peter principle.

>>8577692
To be honest I don't think making the Keepers a main antagonist faction is a good idea, period.

But if we really had to, distance. What is the difference between Garrett and the Keepers? They are both neutral balancing forces. However the Keepers distance themselves to maintain their detachment, meanwhile Garrett makes himself a part of The City. The Keepers need to observe and rely on prophecies, while the prophecies center on Garrett because he lives a life that invites life to find him. The Keepers act alone, while Garrett catches the Keepers by surprise with his improvised temporary truces.

So something that capitalizes on this. But again, I wouldn't. No need to go through every faction like it's some checklist.

>>8577785
>don't think making the Keepers a main antagonist faction is a good idea, period.
Well yeah. The hag used deception to pit the keepers and Garrett against each other. The keepers didn't just randomly become hostile and start destroying the city.

>>8577862
Some deception that was. That cutscene after Caduca's murder was so comedically dumb it was hard to believe. But point taken.

>>8577897
Yeah. Gamall/The Hag was just a rogue element within the Keepers, she's not the head of the organization. In a sense, she is more of an outsider abusing their magics, prophecies and such for her own motives.

>>8577692
I just think you have to get rid of the magic hag aspect. When I say ultimate thief I don't mean she steals stuff like Garrett but hordes knowledge like the keepers. It's the only thing that fits the keepers. Maybe she could have abused the crap out of all the info she was getting. I.E. Blackmail, insider knowledge, etc not just magic. Also giving her tons of the best tools available that she hoarded to herself.

Basically takes the keepers knowledge but abuses it.

>>8577716
Yeah that's who she is. She got so good at the glyph magic it kept her immortal and also a bunch of other shit. She was manipulating the keepers the entire time to keep her powers or something like that.

>>8578069
>Yeah that's who she is.
not that anon but I also fucking forgot about that, she's such a shit Trickster rebrand that I've always associated her with the Pagans in the end, a pagan who infultrated the Keepers
what a forgettable villain and game

>>8571458
you should do an ironman playthrough of not being a gigantic faggot

>>8578986
your low-effort post is more faggoty than his. yours would be more faggy even if he was rating sucking dicks.

>>8579038
Based. His post was already gayer than rating sucking dicks.

I wish eyeofstone used a mic cover in this thief recordings

>>8578986
Wait, you use saves?

>>8577565
By not retreading the trickster and doing something else.

>>8580047
But Gamall is not at all a retread of the Trickster, not even close. Gamall does not want to destroy or rule the world, she merely wants to be immortal and amass as much knowledge as she can. In fact, if Garrett had not meddled and found her out, it's quite possible nobody would have ever discovered her existence and she wouldn't have slaughtered a few Keepers.

>>8580068
I'm always amazed how writers get away with copy pasting major aspects of a character, Changing 1 thing and slightly tweaking a few others, call it a day and it's enough to fool most dipshits out there.

>>8579038
no need to get uppity faggot, not my fault you have no taste

>>8580373
>>8580047
>>8578907
ok, ok. how is gamall a trickster reskin?

>>8580427
Exact same villain in plain site twist and reveal but done way worse
They're even both monsters disguising as a human
Magic except it's glyph-themed
Despite this they're still a folklore type monster... for some reason??
They even copied the weird way of talking when out of disguise but changed it slightly

And that's just off the top of my head. I'm sure other anons could point out more. When you have anons flat out forgetting she was an original keeper and thinking she was pagan it's pretty bad. Look at the similarities between Karrass and the Trickster, then look at the similarities between the Trickster and the Hag. I know it's really common for most games to just recycle their shit so it's normal to the point where most guys don't even notice it but Thief was above this.

>>8580467
>Despite this they're still a folklore type monster... for some reason??
It's even the same weird folklore/Lovecraft mix except the trickster has Lovecraft in his build up, dimensional stuff and minions and the hag just has the spooky body horror monster shit.

>>8580467
>she was an original keeper and thinking she was pagan
I'm one of those anons and I'll admit I find most of 3's story forgettable in general, which leads me to remembering her as a Pagan, doesn't help that I remember the final part of 3 where she's roaming the city reminding me a lot of the giant ents from 2

>>8580485
>giant ents in 2
You mean the giant pagan tree monsters? Because those are from Thief 3 too... I replayed the entirety of 2 recently and I dont recall there being"giant ents" in that game... unless you are misremembering or you somehow meant the pagan monkeys or even the giant Karras robots, but Im not sure how you'd get to either of those, honestly

>>8580583
I didn't know what he was talking about either.
Pretty spooky
https://thief.fandom.com/wiki/Tree_Beast

>>8580583
>>8580601
you two are blind if you didn't notice the ents in trail of blood

>>8580614
>Play with gamma really dark so shadows are almost black to not have night vision
>Play on CRT with either 800x600 or 1024x768
>Could've seen them but assumed they were statues

>>8580601
I was extremely spooked of these dudes, I almost marched into that grove like I owned the place and only noticed them move once I stopped to look around
Fucking Pagan Vietcong making my head noided

>>8580601
These things were brilliant. You think there is no safer place than in the shadows and suddenly something whacks you from behind.

>>8580373
>>8580467
Cool story bro. I still think they're vastly different and like Gamall more. Sue me.

>>8580601
>appear once at the end of one of the most boring maps of thief 2

>>8571458
I mostly agree, although I'd rate the T2 missions lower in general.

one big reservation, however:
Trace the Courier is better than Ambush. none of them are really good, but it really feels like the city was designed with Courier in mind.
Courier has some of the qualities of Assassins from the first game: you have a large, open-ended city to navigate, but you're not just roaming it at random. you're navigating it under pressure, and you actually need to continuously pay attention to to your surroundings.

in comparison, Ambush is a perfect example of a free roaming city mission. you're completely free to explore the city without pressure or restrictions, but it's also completely devoid of meaningful content

>>8581032
I'm not sure you've played many free roaming city missions because most are nothing like Ambush.

>>8581032
Useful tip for my fellow Trace the Courier haters:
Shoot the courier with a water arrow before they stop to look back, if you do this, they give a first alert and keep on walking.

>>8580601
Holy shit you're right, I loaded up to check and they're right there. I knew they were in 3 but had zero idea they were in 2, I always thought the only monsters in 2 were the zombies and haunts. That's some creepy shit right there, to have never noticed them all this time...

>>8580614
>you two are blind if you didn't notice the ents in trail of blood
Nah it's not because of blindness, It's just that I never cared for that level too much so I never really explored that final area in any of my playthroughs, I just beelined to the guy's corpse everytime. Like the other anon said it's just a boring map, especially since it's the only pagan/monster-focused level in the game, so I can see why people would miss some stuff when playing it.

>>8561085
I wonder what OMs will be reimagined

>>8580583
>pagan tree monsters
I mean yes, basically but what do you think an ent is?

>>8581306
They show up a lot in FMs as well, active a lot of the time too

>>8581686
I'd like to see a reimagining of the seaside manor from T:DS in T2's engine.

>tfw been thinking about picking up DromEd
Say I managed to wrangle Blood Mapedit into creating a map and have some experience with Trenchbroom, how obtuse is DromEd in comparison?

>>8584038
It's for non-homos so you have to map in orthogonal views or use the keypad and you have to carve air like UE1.

Anybody else had the problem where Whistling of the Gears won't end? any solutions?
Just when I thought this mission would stop being such a pain in the ass...

>>8584189
>any solutions?
I just dropped it after the retarded scavenger hunt objective appeared at the end.

>>8584190
this is the third time I tried to finish this mission, and when I finally beat it, it takes it away from me.

>>8584038
It's not very obtuse but its interface is pretty archaic. That being said, if you managed to understand Mapedit you should have no trouble at all getting used to DromEd.

>>8584202
refer to >>8571196

>>8584057
>you have to carve air like UE1
I kind of suspected this looking at the burrick tunnels in Bonehoard. Seems like it's a similar in principle to Doom's map editing where you carve sectors out of an empty void.
>>8584204
Yeah, they seem to follow the same school of editor design. I'm following the official tutorial and it seems alright.

>>8584304
>Seems like it's a similar in principle to Doom's map editing where you carve sectors out of an empty void.
It's still constructive solid geometry like Quake, just handled slightly differently. Nicked's tutorial should get you started on learning the basics but won't go over everything. For the longest time I didn't know you could have pyramid brushes that maintain rectangular shape without having to be a square with equal depth and width. The best part of DromEd is being able to go into your map at any time and seeing what it looks like in-game and being able to hop back to the editor instantly.

How to come up with a good layout for a mission? do mappers just start putting random brushes together and see where it goes or do they plan it out beforehand drawing it on paint or something?

>>8584436
maybe look at actual building blueprints and make gradual changes for gameplay reasons.
like Ramirez's mansion isn't wholly unrealistic, but there are a few "gamey" concessions. Same with Shipping and Receiving's warehouses and apartments.

Though, that's just for more traditional missions.

>>8584436
You can do a rough block out of a mission for layout, come up with it as you go, or draw out a layout on paper. Everyone has their own thing and I would recommend opening up different missions and seeing how they were done for ideas regarding architecture and texturework.

>>8584441
I've been looking at IRL castle floorplans and they consist of a bunch of squares...

>>8584458
check out down in the old vault and lord robert's painting for two maps that use vanilla assets to the point there's no custom gamesys.dml and have good brushwork, texturework, and level layouts
also get comfortable with dromed's movement controls which are straight out of system shock 1/terra nova but with the option to rotate the camera with 1, 2, 3

>>8584436
I draw out the map I have in mind on paper. Just make a very rough sketch of the layout, lets you adjust and play around a bit. I guess you can use Google maps of old towns for inspiration.

>>8584436
As others anon have said, everyone has their own method. Just pick the one you think will suit you best.
As far as construction is concerned, generally a great rule to follow is to have at least two ways into any given room and to avoid dead ends whenever possible. Looping paths that the player can traverse from different directions are also a must for good flow.

I'm really hyped about the new contest ngl. I'm really hoping we get some cool catacomb, ruin and mine-themed missions out of it.

strongly considering picking up dromed again and making a contribution myself

>>8584541
Too bad, I'm making the thieves guild

>>8584541
Stop considering it and do it.

>>8584541
I suspect most of these are going to be Life of the Party knockoffs, knowing the overall tastes of the fanbase.
I'm tempted to create some sort of a tomb level since I actually liked Bonehoard but I'm completely new to Thief mapping so my shitty map may end up deepening [the community]'s biases.

>>8584913
pffffft with this "overall tastes" and "bias" stuff. there are tons of FMs that aren't city missions.

>>8584436
IMO you should start by thinking of a place that would be fun to explore and sneak through, from an imagined first-person perspective. The experience you want the player to have, what would be cool to see and feel.

Pre-planning helps but honestly you just gotta start building shit and learn lessons as you go. Some dudes can drop a masterpiece first try but I would start building a simple 4-room building or something as a test first.

t. Doom mapper who is too much of a wuss to try Dromed but keeps imagining I will

>>8561281
Good against armour
Easier to use and likely cheaper to produce than swords

>>8584969
>sledgehammer easier to use than a sword
I don't know about that. As a tool, sure, but I can't imagine that's the case when using it as a weapon.

>>8584913
thieves highway missions are rare nowadays, iirc feast of pilgrims was the only one for the T2 20th anniversary contest

>>8584553
Genuinely interesting idea, I wonder how many people will try to tackle the lesser well recieved missions, Casing the Joint would be interesting to see reworked too

>>8544032
has there been any good fan missions that used undercovers gimick?

>>8586216
Cell Six, just be wary of a really bullshit switch in the mission that symbolizes late 2000s/early2010s thief FMs, otherwise it's good.

>>8585196
... and it won

Anyone else hate it when an FM requires finding obscure secrets in order to achieve the gold requirement?

>>8587049
Just because you don't like city missions doesn't mean that they're bad. Feast of Pilgrims is excellent.

>>8587194
The thing is, I agree, it's an great mission, but aren't there too many rooftop missions?

>>8587238
I don't think so. And even if there was, trends come and go. At one point the FM scene was dominated by mansion missions.

>>8586226
thanks anon!

>>8587238
There are only a few truly good rooftop missions. I know of feast of pilgrim, one of nicked's mission that's during "daylight" and endless Rain. Feast of pilgrims is the only true rooftop bcs you can't reach the floor just like life of the party

>>8587542
there was one by Melan but I forgot what it was called. it was some absurdly tall mission with bridges and stuff

Anyone know where I can find the employer in The Violent End of Duncan Malveine?

>>8588092
Did you check the ttlg thread for the FM?

>>8588092
>>8588916
The worst thing about FMs is having to check through the TTLG threads for hints toward some retarded esoteric switch or key
Builders Paradise was fucking godawful with this because of missing required keys

>>8588950
don't be such a whiner

>>8588963
Hey I very rarely cave into scouring the TTLG threads, but it does happen

>>8587651
Thank you anon! I'll check his thiefguild page later

>>8575428
noisemakers are pretty shit if you ask me

>>8590053
They're not, if you think they're shit you probably blackjack everything or savescum ghost.

>>8590060
you are very rude and presumptuous, I love having conga lines of guards chase me while I cause a ruckus, and in my opinion broadheads do its generally intended job well enough but I suppose you can get mileage out of it in some specific scenarios where you might want to draw away LOTS of guards from an area

Playing Calendra's Cistern (the OG one, not that awful remade version) and it's actually pretty fun despite the OC fanfic love interest.

>>8551991
>>8552030
>>8573213
>anons stopped seeding the fan mission collection

What are some horrible takes you've seen regarding Thief?

>>8591619
I was watching the original devs play SS1 and commentate on it. One said they were jealous of the Dishonored teleport ability and said Thief would've been so much better with it.

>>8571124
Dishonored honestly had more soul than Thi4f.

>>8591704
This guy was talking about Thief proper. Dishonored gets a ton of praise for it's art direction though but to me it always looks like Thief mashed in with Half-Life and Bioshock.

>>8591652
That's a yikes. What is it about ex-Looking Glass devs and being fucking retarded when it comes to game design post-Deus Ex/Thief 2?

>>8591652
They consider having to listen for footsteps instead of seeing through walls an engine limitation rather than a design feature. I don't pay attention to anything they say nowadays as they're clearly not the same people they were 22 years ago.

>>8591742
I'm fully willing to commit to the idea that every good immersive sim being spawned the way it was was entirely by accident due to technical limitations. Thief 1's development is a testament to this. Invisible War is what Warren Spector wanted Deus Ex to be, etc.

>>8591750
They outlined their design philosophies too well for it to just be an accident. SS2 is another good example of designing around limitations and doing what the Dark Engine is really good at instead of trying to compete with Half-Life's scripted sequences. Once Ken got his $15 million to make a game, he made Bioshock.

>>8591742
Because game design shifted from trying to recreate living in a world through the main characters eyes into being dopamine generating machines that even the most blitz out of their mind stoner can bumble through.

>>8591750
>>8591767
>I'm fully willing to commit to the idea that every good immersive sim being spawned the way it was was entirely by accident due to technical limitations.
I dunno. Sometimes older games have better technical feats than newer ones despite being uglier. I subscribe to the idea that in the early days it was D&D and movie nerds trying to make these worlds into reality and in the modern day they want to streamline the experience as much as possible to not filter too many people. Just look at that tier-list that guy trying to be the civvie for immsimms made and you'll see it makes sense.

>>8591713
>This guy was talking about Thief proper.
Huh? Reply chain lead me to Thi4f images and discussion

>>8591619
Pretty much every take regarding the OMs by kids playing the games for the first time nowadays.

>>8591736
They are 22 years removed from LGS' company culture.

>>8591792
Nevermind I got confused because I thought you were replying to >>8591652

>>8591773
There were a lot of non-nerds at LGS like the Tribe members(Greg LoPiccolo, Terri Brosius, Eric Brosius) mixed in with '90s MIT graduate hacker types, and then other random hires like failed screenwriter Ken Levine and former games journos like Emil Pagliarulo. Basically the perfect mix of people that were all invested in what they were working on.

>>8591742
>They consider having to listen for footsteps instead of seeing through walls an engine limitation rather than a design feature.
I blame the industry push for accessibility nowadays for making them think that.

>>8591619
>that 5 hour video made by the guy who literally didn't understand any of the mechanics in T1/T2 and still complained about them
Worst take of any game I've ever seen

https://youtu.be/zcF0XkZn2eA

>>8591889
I wonder how many people don't even realize the mini robots can't see anything until they hear a sound, then their eye opens.

>>8591742
>They consider having to listen for footsteps instead of seeing through walls an engine limitation rather than a design feature.
one of the most heartbreaking things about following game designers is realizing how much casual shit they would do back in the day if they were capable of doing so.

It's completely true when people say that limitations breed creativity.

>>8592091
One would have to be pretty dumb to not realize it, I think. The security cameras and the giant robots already have a green eye to them while the minibots do not... game just spells it out to you. if someone can't pick on such an obvious detail then why would they be playing Thief in the first place? or even making pathetic 5 hour long video essays about it?

Casing the Joint is such an incredibly absurd mission.

>>8592105
>if someone can't pick on such an obvious detail then why would they be playing Thief in the first place?
Hello mister renowned 2000s mapmaker, aren't you supposed to be putting tiny switches on ceilings right about now?

>>8592105
I never knew that. I generally never am in the same area as enemies, have LOS with them and if I know I'm going to alert one I either just bolt or try to get around it and shoot the vent on back
>The security cameras and the giant robots already have a green eye to them while the minibots do not
Yeah but you could also chalk it up to signaling the bot is alerted.

>>8592146
You WILL play my autistic FM with pixel-sized switches, obscene loot requirements, over 20 hidden secrets, and annoying enemy patrols, and you WILL love it.

>>8592164
Only if I don't have to backtrack through it again with a new secret objective after doing all of those objectives.

claiming the last post

>>8592479
Nope.