/vr/ - Retro Games

It's not. Tomb Raider has better draw distance on Saturn.

>>8565131
wrong.

Why are people so obsessed with transparencies? Who the fuck cares

>>8565135
oh wait, right is Saturn lol. still looks and runs worse.

>>8565136
because mesh transparency looks like shit, has all sorts of hideous artifacts and is only a crude approximation of true transparency.

You should really label which side is which, not everyone remembers exactly what ps1 tomb raider looked like and even fewer played it on the saturn.

>>8565146

>>8565136
Seething opaquelet

PC wins

shut the fuck up smegtard!

>>8565129
Psx and 64 couldn't even run certain Saturn games they were so weak.

Can't tell which one is which but both are soulful and OP is a nitpicking faggot as always

>>8565129
Why did your mom let me fuck her?

>>8565180
>Can't tell which one is which

>>8565136
It’s literally the only thing Nintendid that Sega didn’t

>>8565184
Yes you did. The opening post is a question.

>>8565141
There are like three PS1 ports where this is an issue and that's only because it was a quick and dirty option. The Saturn can do transparencies just fine, it just has some weird limitations so it's a bigger pain in the ass when you're porting something. The same happens in reverse all the time. Look at what happened to the ground texture when Grandia was ported to the PS1. The PS1 version on the right is just a copy/paste job over and over again because it couldn't handle the whole texture. The Saturn had the advantage of offloading the environment to VDP2 which frees up a bunch of resources. It's not a question of which is more powerful. It's about what you're asking it to do. Both Saturn and PS1 fail when asked to do something built with the other's architecture in mind but, honestly, the PS1 tends to fail more at this than the reverse.

>>8565197
Forgot pic.

>>8565197
>the PS1 tends to fail more at this than the reverse.
delusional. almost every ps1 to saturn port runs worse on the saturn and almost every saturn to ps1 port runs better there.

>>8565137
You say it looks worse but check out how badly the PS1's textures warp in the corridor compared to the Saturn.

>>8565243
>almost every saturn to ps1 port runs better there.
Come on now, that's just a lie. List some games.

>>8565243
Cite examples.

>>8565243
I'll take Saturn SOTN and Toshinden Remix over PS1 X-Men vs. Street Fighter.

how much of the difference in the colors is because PS1 had a weird 15-bit color palette with no darks and how much is because of quirks in the saturn hardware?

>>8565243
Who are you kidding? Forget Saturn, PS1's Rayman is worse than the fucking Jaguar's.

>>8565136
Just one more thing to autistically latch on to to fuel their console war faggotry.

>>8565270
https://psx-spx.consoledev.net/graphicsprocessingunitgpu/#gpu-texture-caching

>RGB Intensity Notes

>The Playstations RGB values aren't linear to normal RGB values (as used on PCs). The min/max values are of course the same, but the medium values differ:
> Intensity PC PSX
> Minimum 0 0
> Medium (circa) 16 8
> Maximum 31 31
>Ie. on the PSX, the intensity increases steeply from 0 to 15, and less steeply from 16 to 31

what did kutaragi-san mean by this?

>>8565129
When it comes to 3D they were both weak. Real men played Model 2 board games.

Got another comparison or is it just Tomb Raider?

>>8565151
Is this bait? The right one is showing no PS1 jitter on the edges, or whatever it was called.

>>8565129
Say what you want but for me Tomb Raider 1 was a Saturn game. It started on Saturn iirc and was thought to be an exclusive though that changed quickly. If not, well I sure thought it was going to be. Of course though Tomb Raider is associated with Playstation instead. TR1 for Saturn was great OP and looked just fine.

>>8565752
so fucking what? If a game has a better version on a different platform there's hardly any reason to play the inferior version.

>>8565135
What a retard

>>8565135
>>8565930

Its worse in large areas (like the Colosseum, Lost Valley, and the big Sphynx area in Egypt), but the short draw distance can be spotted pretty much everywhere in the game.

>>8565157
Check out a gameplay video that shows the water in motion. The PS1 (and even the PC) versions have completely flat water, while the Saturn version has a really cool wave effect. It also has a nice distortion effect that you can see when you're outside of water looking in, and inside of water looking out as well.

But you'd know that if you weren't a cherrypicking snoy faggot :^)

>>8565129
Each side has some pros and cons. The left doesn't tint the bricks etc the water color as it should

>>8565270
> color palette with no darks
sounds more like the ps2, since it's look is so much more washed out

>>8565129
Why does PS consoles always have that weird washed out brightness?
I don't notice it when i'm playing but I always see when it's a done for a video comparison between a PS console and another system. I've seen it for ps1, ps2, ps3, ps4. Why is that? is that intentional or an oversight for all these years?

So here's Saturn on top and PS1 on bottom
https://files.catbox.moe/wl5s8q.png

tomb raider was specifically made for the saturn yet the ps1 port looks and runs better. Yeah Saturn was a weak piece of shit

Tomb Raider is best on PC. The console ports were awful

>>8566183
prove it

>>8566185
dissaprove it

>>8566214
You made the claim, buddy.

>>8565752
It was planned from the start to be multiplatform but yes, it was a timed exclusive for Saturn. That's why the PAL version is an obvious beta; the NTSC version was released much closer to the PlayStation/DOS release date and so it had enough quality of life improvements to the point where it's mostly a matter of preference, but of course Sega's timed exclusivity deal backfired as Sony pointed to the rushed PAL Saturn release as an excuse to tell consumers that the PlayStation version would be worth the wait, and the rest is history.
>>8565841
This is a modern mindset, not a retro one /v/

>>8565129
We have this topic once every week.

>>8565197
>>8565206
fuck off back to segaxtreme, trekkies. Nobody gives a shit about Grandia.

It's almost like the real issue is that PS1-experienced programmers barely knew how to port to Saturn and Saturn-experienced programmers barely knew how to port to PlayStation because the system architecture was so different, just like what happens ever other dev cycle. But y'know, it's a lot more dramatic to simplify the problem to the console itself, and our monkey-brains thrive on drama.

>>8566727
Saturn's performance and ability ceiling was clearly lower, though. It had a few extremely niche-y strengths. It's a good system with good games. It's weaker, though. This is fine.

>>8566701
Stick to Quest 64. You’re out of your depth.

>>8565930
>>8565931
What bugs me about TR (and a lot of games for that matter) is that while the Saturn versions are uniquely different they will forever be forgotten. You'd think things like Mega Man collections would include both ports but they just use PS1.

>>8566183
The PC port is awful. Back then you wanted to play on console. PC was buggier, harder to install, prone to crashing, had compatibility issues, no joypad etc.
Today you have superpowered PC and patches and can pick the most compatible version and hardware don't matter but PC gaming in the mid 90's was rough. Console was the way to go for console games. Might as well play the PSX version on one of those new emulators with corrections for resolution, color, texture warping, texfure filtering and have the most stable and convenient experience.

>>8566845
I used to have the PC Tomb Raider when I was a kid. We played it with the keyboard, had loads of fun.

>>8566845
I played TR for 3dfx with one of these and it was great.

>>8566845
Literally worked on my machine just fine and I was a dumb kid. It was soundblaster compatible, VGA game with a software mode. It was hardly exotic and any 486 or Pentium could run it. You could literally connect a joypad you absolute wrongtard.

>>8566794
True. Megaman X4's only technical difference is a few graphical enhancements on the Saturn, but Megaman 8 has a shitload of Saturn exclusive stuff that hardly anyone knows about because they either play the PS1 version or a port of the PS1 version in a collection.

I think the X3 port is essentially the same game on both the Saturn and the PS1 since it's basically just a barebones SNES port with some anime cutscenes slapped on.

Most people will never play stuff like Resident Evil's battle mode or Saturn's Maria mode in SotN, and that kinda sucks.

Iirc the Saturn was developed to be a 2D powerhouse which the PSX had problems with in the beginning. Of course 3d became the main focus of the 32/64 bit era and later on in the lifecycle developers found ways to make the PSX handle 2d well.

>>8565165
I know! I keep trying but my saturn discs keep shattering when I stuff them in my n64 cartridge slot. I tried blowing on them, anyone have any tips?

>>8566387
No I didn't

>>8566845
Why can't you fucking babies ever just use a keyboard, also you didn't post why THIS PC port was bad.

>>8565158
Objectively correct.

pound for pound it's actually more powerful than the PS1, but wasn't designed to do 3D, and when it became clear that 3D was the future its architecture was hastily restructured resulting in a complicated mess. Meaning that when you try to program a 3D game on it vs the PS1 you have to work much harder for a generally inferior result. The shitty 3D you see on PS1 is the result of a weak console doing its best, the shitty 3D you see on the saturn is the result of a stronger console being wrangled into doing something it wasn't intended for.

i you are not playing the games on the original hardware they were released on, you are not playing the real game

>>8567068
hahahahaha what a fucking idiot, the real game are bytes, movementsa, strategies, plot and characters, how do you have the balls to say i´m not playing "the real" game if it´s emulated? what a fucking idiot, bet you only see movies in theater because otherwise you wouldnt see the real movies, isnt it?

>>8567190
sure bro, youre totally getting the original experience playing on a system the game wasn't designed for, ported by a third party studio for pennies

>>8567049
>>8566845
Tomb Raider 1 wasn't an action platformer that needed fast paced controls. It was super slow and methodical, and most of the platforming was done on objects laid out as a square grid. It played perfectly fine from a keyboard.

>>8567213
“original experience” is a spook
so is “intended experience”
the original intended experience is a game that runs and can be completed and hits a deadline and makes its money back

>>8567234
i bet you watch movies on your cellphone too

>>8567213
that's a remaster retard

Saturn was designed around better 2D visuals and when Sega saw the competitions 3D abilities they had to back their way into 3D so they basically just doubled the consoles processors and prayed. Saturn 3D is actually just transformed sprites (rectangles) instead of traditional polygons so the system is goofy as fuck to develop for.

>>8565135
>>8565137
dumbass and consolewarring. impressive

>>8567251
>when Sega saw the competitions 3D abilities
SEGA had already pushed 3D more than their competition with their model 1 hardware. Saturn was just a colossal balls-up

>>8566970
>Megaman 8 has a shitload of Saturn exclusive stuff that hardly anyone knows
Most of the MM8 discourse I've seen involves a very vocal sect talking about the Saturn version nonstop at every opportunity like it suddenly turns what's ultimately a middling entry into something that'll change the way you see the game forever, but..eh?

>>8567425
>a very vocal sect talking about the Saturn version
They do this for every game that has a saturn port.

The Saturn port of Tomb Raider was the first version of the game that I have ever played. I had a friend with the DOS-PC port, and a Playstation. I knew other people with TR2 and TR3. The Saturn port does run at a lower framerate, that falls somewhere in the 20's. But could drop pretty low. I still found it playable, because of the 'cinematic' platformer type of gameplay, the game isn't really affected by the framerate much. With the exception of shooting enemies. I later did find copies of TR1, TR2, TR3, Last Revelations and such for the PC.

>>8566794
Anniversary Collection was too lazy to port anything but the PS1 version (which is why 1-6 Complete Works are so butchered), and by the Legacy Collections, the excuse was that the games were presented as authentic to their original releases as possible (which the X Legacy Collections were pushing but having X4 be the PS1 version, since while it was released simultaneously, Saturn was the lead platform in that case and the PS1 version only became a thing midway through development, and it's downright incorrect by X7&X8 porting the PC versions rather than PS2).
>>8566970
PS1 X3 got rereleased in the first X Collection, and it turned out to be a strange novelty. I do wish more developers had the motivation to backport obscure extras as a BONUS feature, but then you had IGA who had the opportunity to do exactly that and slapped together his version of Maria as a consolation prize after people bombarded him with questions about the Saturn version of SOTN. How many original-game devs would more or less stick to their vision like IGA?

>>8567425
Why do Sonic fans have a reputation for autism when clearly Mega Man fans have them beat?

>>8567516
MMfags are civil, and not furries.

>>8567516
Mario fans are the ones who made up that reputation for sonic fans. Really it seems the heart of all strife and bickering in video games can be traced back to Nintendo fans flinging shit. This thread for example was made by the n64 autist.

>>8565129
I'm not sure which one of these is supposed to look better. I'm guessing the left is PS1 since the right has an attempt at anti aliasing

>>8565195
Damn you've got him there

>>8567525
No Sonic fans definitely did that to themselves in the Deviantart era

>>8567576
Sure there were some fringe weirdos from the era. There were also as many fringe weirdos in the nintendo camp. These days there's a lot more pervert plumber cum addicts than there are sonic weirdos.

>>8567589
Absolutely not man
You couldn't even search unrelated characters without getting art of Shadow pregnant with their baby or some shit. I say this as a Sega kid. Sonic fans absolutely earned their rep

>>8567593
keep obsessing over 20 year old deviantart curios lol, I'm tired of these disgusting perverts.

>>8565129
Prefer the left
>>8565135
Prefer the right.

becquae segas consoles were all shit eapecially saturn and dreamcast but cant say that without pissy soiboy mods getting upaet and deleting threads/posts for inconvenient opinions

vr literally has the worst mods and they should be executed and hung from their own intestines

>>8567643
You’d think tendies wouldn’t hold grudges like this so long after Sega’s death.

>>8566845
Sonygger cope

>>8567653
>console warring
>hello im 16 years old

test

>>8565189
>>8565151
>>8565271
>>8565930
>>8566087
>>8565931
Nintendoes now since 97 cancellation: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=voTxGuKkMRY

>>8565583
GBA, 3DO and possible PC FX

>>8567049
>Why can't you fucking babies ever just use a keyboard, also you didn't post why THIS PC port was bad.

The DOS port was fine. Looked good in software rendering mode too. Supported some 3D accelerators. I think the PS1 game has more audio/ music tracks? The DOS port sold a lot of copies too, and even received a "Gold" (Unfinished Business) edition a couple years later, with additional chapters/ levels. Though Tomb Raider II for the PC was generally a better port, as it was made for Windows 9X, not DOS and supported DirectX rendering and even has better gamepad support through windows plug and play manager/ DirectX input.

>>8567668
>4fps
Looks like they need to turn down some sliders.
I can’t wait to see OpenLara on 32X.

>>8567596
>Obsessing
Are you having some kind of episode? Check back on the previous comments of the conversation if you get lost

>>8567643
Why are you talking about vr this is a retro board newfag

>>8567701
>32x turd
Oh you mean Atari Jaguar right?

>>8567691
No I mean Saturn vs PS

>>8567701
>I can’t wait to see OpenLara on 32X.

Lets see it on the 32X-CD with CG cutscenes in high colour.

>>8567732
K

>>8565271
Outside of maybe the Band Land floors obviously missing their slipperiness, I agree, original Jaguar version is underrated.

>>8566087
PS1 visual less pixelated.

>>8567643
Gigabased. Hated those worthless mod.

>>8567662
Pcunt seethes again.

>>8567643
auster cope.

>>8567776
It's true PC was always better.

>>8567785
See>>8567780

>>8566701
>Nobody gives a shit about Grandia.
Who gives a shit about Tomb Raider 1 anymore?

>>8567816
Definitely fewer people than care about Grandia

>>8567785
No it wasn't.

>>8567668
This

>>8567668
so this is the power of RDRAM

>>8568493
Wasn't the benefit of RDRAM that it could move giant chunks of data at once at the cost of raw speed?

>>8567486
Iga shouldn't left Konami...

>>8565135
>>8565930
>>8565931
>oh no both games were optimised for their respective systems
AAAAAAAH I'M GOING INSAAAAANE

>>8565931
People bitch about the N64's blurriness but the PS1's full screen dithering is also pretty annoying. The comparison shot here really shows how intrusive it can be when you're not playing on old school CRTs.

>>8568563
Not really. I mean, they were built for their respective systems but the problems show through. The PS1's texture warping is all over the place compared to the Saturn. Look at the walls. Straight lines on the Saturn look like they're melting on the PS1.

>>8568604
both systems have texture warping it changes depending on where the camera is pointing
different rooms have different draw distances on both consoles

>>8568563
Dude when you can't even see the other side of a room in your game you know you fucked up somewhere.

>>8568627
>>8568617

>>8568617
>different rooms have different draw distances on both consoles

>>8568617
Is there any location that has better draw distance on PS1?

>>8568646
There aren't any. The draw distance is handled by lowering light levels based on the distance of objects in a sphere with Lara in the center (as in, the closer the object is to the exterior of the sphere, the less light it has until it gets to zero - this is why some places seem to get dark when you spin Lara or the camera around in a circle). It's a static measurement on the console versions, that anon is a snoy who is talking out of his asshole.

>>8568646
varying cases, like I said optimisations were done for both consoles
https://youtu.be/YXCkcprQUro?t=736

>>8568653
>Snoy
>both versions have their merits
yeah sure buddy

>>8568654
Can you screencap where you're seeing better PS1 draw distance compared to Saturn? I'm not even being a dick, I'm watching the video at your timestamp and can't see your example.

>>8568662
they're not lined up, if you look at the far wall and when you can see it where you are on the snow
it's obviously not as much as the examples I replied to

>>8568604
Saturn has its own brand of hideous texture warping

>>8568654
>varying cases, like I said optimisations were done for both consoles

As far as I know, for Tomb raider 1, The Sega Saturn version was the lead development console for the first game. The devs had to make all of the maps and character models for the Saturn game first and then port them over to the PS1, because of the issues of porting triangle models to the Saturn. But porting quadrilateral models to the PS1 was quite a bit easier. I still think Tomb Raider on the Saturn is a really good example of a 3D platformer on the system. Maybe even the best one? But undeniably, the game runs at a worse framerate, lower resolution, and lower colour depth than the PS1 version. Tomb Raider 2 and 3 were designed with the PS1 as the lead platform.

>>8568690
I think it is better on Saturn too, the textures look way better on saturn for starters but the frame pacing is a hell of a lot better on PS1

>>8568694
>the textures look way better on saturn for starters
do you even OWN a saturn let alone saturn tomb raider? the textures are noticeably lower quality.

>>8568690
>>8568694
I bet the framerate issues are related to poor use of the Saturn's twin processors rather than the hardware itself being worse.

>>8568736
I like how the snarky micropenis equipped loser who made this image originally never noticed how much lower res and shitty the textures look on the Saturn. Talk about missing the forest for the trees.

>>8568753
Even taking that into consideration, I've noticed that flaws on the Saturn/N64 are typically treated like giant problems while PS1 gets a pass for it's own. PS1 being the standard against which everything else is measured means that things like warping textures are considered no biggie but if the Saturn dares to have problems with a transparency effect in Mega Man X4 then that is proof positive of it's inferiority.

>>8568753
or maybe it was a light hearted joke you're too jaded and autistic to appreciate?

>>8568753
Are they even the same texture? They look redrawn on PS1, which would make sense if it came out later.

>>8568768
>Are they even the same texture?
yes you idiot, saturn just has closer lod clipping than psx because it's weak as shit.

Sony sucks

>>8568792
and yet they won

There are people who defend the Saturn on here? Huh.

>>8568801
They are pozzed.
>>8568846
Not everyone is a snoy

>>8568849
>snoy
back to /v/

>>8568792
>>8568801
>>8568846
>>8568849
>>8568853
not sure what I expected coming into this thread
grow up

>>8568856
imagine posturing as mature on a 4chan video game forum

>>8568862
imagine thinking maturity is dictated by a hobby

>>8567213
>>8567068
You're a console player, a cuckold, and you think you should only play whatever curated turd your overlord of choice sees as fit for your enjoyment. That's why you think that the only way to play GTA:SA today is that abomination.

It’s incredible how little all these console comparisons matter now, aside from pure curosity’s sake

wow i can't wait to play shmup #787436864

>>8569186
I miss the days when console architectures were so wildly different that you could tell which system a game was on just by eye. It helped give each machine its own personality.

>>8565486
But PC rgb values weren't linear either until the advent of HDR rendering, and even then assets areauthired in nonlinear space

>>8568662
You can be a dick, that guy doesn't know what he is talking about. The draw distance on Tomb Raider on the PS1 is shorter than the Saturn version, and the draw distances on both versions are locked and do not change at any time.

>>8565151
The Saturn looks a whole generation behind, holy shit.

>>8569138
>cuckold
>buzzwords
Ok Pcunts

>>8569417
At least GC/Wii/U PowerPC and later NX targa x1 were own things.

The Saturn's 3D sucks but I also find a weird SOUL to it. I'm not gonna say it's better than the PS1 because it absolutely isn't, but I dunno, the quads and darker look of the whole thing really gives this special shitty charm to the 3D games on the console.

>>8570928
https://youtu.be/dYZKbznl0Ds

The Saturn's 3D has a charming jank to it.

>>8565265
>Saturn SOTN

>>8570956
But that part of the game looks fine, aside from the screendoor. Why would you edit it to look worse? To fit your agenda?

>>8566970
>I think the X3 port is essentially the same game on both the Saturn and the PS1 since it's basically just a barebones SNES port with some anime cutscenes slapped on.
Is the ps1 version fullscreen or does it have a narrow aspect ratio with bars on the sides too? Saturn version had that stuff since it's not capable of going below 320 horizontal resolution

>>8565129
The Saturn was originally going to be a machine focused on having the most advanced 2D graphics around because Sega of Japan thought 3D wasn't going to take off in 1992. For home video games anyways, they actually had a lot of work thrown behind their arcade division to shit out 3D games at a regular pace, so their plan at this time was to have 2D at home but 3D at arcades. Keep in mind this is Japan where they didn't worry about a dying arcade market and the business was at least 10 times bigger/lucrative compared to internationally.
Then suddenly out of nowhere the ATARI JAGUAR OF ALL FUCKING THINGS, NOT THE PLAYSTATION LIKE REVISIONISTS BELIEVE BUT THE MOTHERFUCKING JAG was shown off and scared the piss out of the company, so Sega hastily revised quite literally every single thing about the Saturn's design in order for it to try and play catch-up ball. This of course led to the console having a weird ass architecture with little documentation, a devkit that was missing features and required a regular PC to handle some game-related stuff, and third-party developers having lots of issues with developing games on it (including strictly 2D games, ironic considering this was supposed to be the Saturn's forte).
There's a whole lot of other shit that was going on here but this is the main reason why the Saturn was so weak compared to the N64 and PS1. Sega of Japan simply bet on the wrong horse and didn't realize that technology was moving so fast that they only got the memo well after their competitors had brand new 3D gaming consoles lined up and ready to be sold at KB Toys across America.

>>8565243
>almost every saturn to ps1 port runs better there
No
>Silhouette Mirage
>Grandia 1
>Gunbird
>Darius Burst
>(Arguably) Powerslave
I'd list every single Capcom home port too but that wouldn't be a Saturn-to-PS1 port given they're arcade games. That said, it's wrong to just broadly paint the Saturn version of games as being bad while their PS1 counterparts are all 100% better. It's not the 90's anymore, there's no reason to play console wars when you can accurately emulate or cheaply buy all these systems with free pirated games.

>>8570987
It admittedly does suffer from some odd scaling, but the recent fanpatch partially mitigates it as well as providing a 4MB RAM function that fixes most of the slowdown and loading
Still not the best SotN version but shit I'd say it's in a good place now

>>8571415
I think it's worth playing as Maria

>>8571489
I will never understand why they made a different Maria for the PSP port but didn't include Saturn Maria

>>8569138
the original sa port on pc is also fucked you retard, it doesnt even have moon phases

>>8567668
Pretty funny seeing it run so choppy on an N64 after seeing it run so smooth on the GBA.

The Saturn games have a really nice distinctive look, like >>8571605, that makes me go "Oh, that is a Saturn game"; same goes for the Dreamcast as well. The point being that I would rather have a look console games that are unique to a specific console than comparing ports that studios just made out of obligations to higher ups.

>>8571605
cool game, shame about the silky smooth 10fps performance

>>8571849
>duh
Because it early stage beta. GBA one take years I believe.

>>8571493
>some fighting games or vampirism
Shiturn was terrible misrepresented of her moveset.

>>8571605
It's funny how "enemy attacks from underwater below while you're on safe platforms" and "giant monster swims around a circular room filled with water" both later showed up in Sonic Adventure.

>>8571605
Those platforms look so much like wireframe placeholders.

>>8572172
Doesn't matter, she was fun, it should've had both

I often wonder why there was no move from Nintendo to get Tomb raider on the N64? In my head, Nintendo would make some deal with Core/ Eidos, and hand Tomb Raider off to some 2nd party developer, or some US/ Canada team/ whatever, and they would make a strange "best of" Tomb Raider. That would be like Tomb Raider 1 and 2 mashed together. And it would be tailored to the N64 with fog.

>>8565129
The Saturn is designed to be a 2D console that can also do some 3D
The PSX is designed to be a 3D console that can also emulate 2D sprites

>>8573324
>marvel heroes are human trying to be gods, DC heroes are god among humans

>>8572172
Her Saturn moveset seems like it was based on her special martial arts attack from Rondo where she transforms into a ninja or something. I guess they took the idea to its logical extreme and figured that's how an older Maria would fight all the time. It's just simply not as fun though.

>>8567589
pretending that sonicfag autism would go unnoticed without tendie shitflingers when shadow and 06 exist is nothing short of disingenuous

>>8567516
Megaman is literally who? compared to Sonic.

>>8568583
I think complaints about the N64 'blur' only started coming out as CRTs were being phased out for lcd flatscreens, when the effect was noticeable and looked bad on such displays. Same with the dither on PS1, you wouldn't have noticed these things on a tube unless you actually played on a PVM and in RGB back in the day.

>>8567516
>>8567517
>>8567525
Based Rouge fappers.
Based Roll fappers.
Based Rosalina fappers.
All three collide in harmony to make you seethe.

>>8567668
Funny how the coder BTFOd one of you autists in the comments kek

>>8573496
Funny how the coder actually sperg'd out on some guy in the comments for no reason and then came to post about it on /vr/ pretending not to be himself

>>8573506
Funny how schizos will invent stories to make themselves feel better

>>8573420
Is this an NTSC thing? I am in a PAL region so for me I am used to analog TV being borderline HD, far sharper than the mush that the N64 outputs.

>>8573324
t. Doesn't know anything about PlayStation hardware

>>8573496
>>8573589
Wtf is happening?p0hyh

>>8573496
Wtf is happening?

>>8565135
This looks like it used the same technique traveler's tales used to give Sonic R draw distance, which was
>Make the mesh textureless, a flat colors
>Saturn can tween from transparent to flat colors
>When it done tweening, now tween textures from flat color
>Simple" fog of war" effect
Whatever system that is on the right can just fade out the mesh completely textures included, so it looks more natural and takes less CPU time to do, meaning more can be on screen at once before the need to use draw distance

Both looks good though.

>>8568762
Jokes are meant to be funny anon

>>8568768
You are absolutely correct. The original saturn release was shelved in other regions for an updated version with all the enchantments of the ps1 release. The original saturn version was like a fucking beta. It should never have been released and was yet more fodder used as nail for the Saturn's coffin.

>>8568493
My HW power began to grow!

>>8573242
>I often wonder why there was no move from Nintendo to get Tomb raider on the N64? In my head, Nintendo would make some deal with Core/ Eidos, and hand Tomb Raider off to some 2nd party developer, or some US/ Canada team/ whatever, and they would make a strange "best of" Tomb Raider. That would be like Tomb Raider 1 and 2 mashed together. And it would be tailored to the N64 with fog.

the only Core game to show up on the N64 was Fighting Force. It was strange to me that Tomb Raider never saw an N64 game. Not even as a port, just some weird 'original' Tomb Raider 64 type game that was kinda a compilation of other TR games. It seemed like Nintendo was going after big Playstation brands, and bringing them over to the 64.
https://youtu.be/n3jT_Z8aHsQ?t=4
https://youtu.be/XV_gdr_ZLeg?t=198

>>8576094
Eh, originally published Street of Rage pitch?

>>8576116
>Eh, originally published Street of Rage pitch?

yup. There was even a Saturn prototype for Fighting Force:

https://youtu.be/wVYEiYTOVx8?t=27

>>8576094
>>8573242
It was planned, but Core never received N64 dev kits, and then Eidos signed an exclusivity deal with Sony.

>MAH GRAFICKZ
>>>/v/

>>8576164
This is one of the reasons Naughty Dog jumped onto the PS1 with Crash Bandicoot. Andy Gavin said that after working on the 3DO they looked at the consoles that were either brand new or still on the horizon and said that Nintendo just didn't talk to Americans so they had no access to N64 development or even to know what the system was going to be. And between the Saturn and PS1 he believed the PS1 was the only one that could do what he planned for the game.

https://youtu.be/izxXGuVL21o

>>8576197
https://youtu.be/pSHj5UKSylk?t=495

>>8576192
Zoom zoom zoom!

>>8576094
> Last time I played Ridge Racer was 20 years ago

Hearing that soundtrack was like awakening a genetic memory

>>8566859
that dpad triggers my autism

>>8576135
The music kek

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AUTeULNKcwo

>>8576197
>>8576217
Ain't Crash a 3D version of Donkey Kong and Rocket Knight?

>>8576116
>>8576135
> "Hey Sega, we want to make a 3D version of Streets of Rage, one of your classic IPs, for the Sega Saturn!"
> "Ok, Core Design, that sounds good"
Core starts working on the game
> "Oh, Sega, by the way, we also want to release the new Streets of Rage game we're working on on the PS1 and N64"
> "Why would we let you release a game utilizing one of our core franchises on multiple competitor's systems? Fuck you"

>>8571849
NULL3D?

>>8565129
Rush to market, but also poor dev kits and limited coding skill. The best programmer on earth would still get more out of the PS1, but it would have been closer than it was in practice.

>>8576164
>It was planned, but Core never received N64 dev kits, and then Eidos signed an exclusivity deal with Sony.

What a shame. You'd think Nintendo would make that a priority, but maybe they didn't realise how big Tomb Raider was? It was one of the top ten selling games on the PS1, and Sony used it to advertise the power of the PS1. But I guess Sony locked down the franchise? It would have been something to see a Tomb Raider 64 from the original devs.

>>8568761
1) Everybody had the PS1, very few people had a Saturn. It's a lot easier for them to digest comparisons if PS1 is used as the basis
2) Sony fans are fierce and nearly antagonistic when it comes to defending the Playstation family of consoles, and this definitely applies to current Sony fans defending the PS1 in today's world

>>8576285
The guy who uploaded that added the music himself. What an absolute melt.

To any Saturnfags here, what type of RAM card should I get? I plan on getting a Fenrir and have a couple 1M/4M games that I look forward to play.

>>8565184
what game is this

>>8576305
Also Sega: Help Nintendo open up a arcade warehouse and declined Sony partnership.

>>8566859
Gravis pad is based kino

>>8578453
Playing Jazz Jackrabbit on anything else is blasphemy.

>>8566845
Spoken like a true console pleb that has no fucking idea what he's talking about

>>8565129
Don't expect to get many decent answers here. This board has too many autistic segafag shills like:
>>8565131
>>8565161
>>8565183
>>8565254
>>8565250
>>8565270
>>8565271
>>8567762
>>8565752
>>8565930
>>8567061
>>8567525

They will autistically defend their shit defunct company no matter what. Any criticism of Sega, regardless of how valid it is, will send Segafags into autistic rage.

>>8567643
Extremely based.

>>8579480
Being a Sony simp is not much better.

>>8567643
Zoomie cope

>>8567735
Based

>>8565129
bump

>>8574765
2D fighters and shmups sucked on the PlayStation

>>8582505
not all of them
G-Darius is great, as is harmful park

>>8567668
>unlisted
So ThemTube false flag all his Tomb Raider 64 and Genesis/MD emulation showcase on N64 system.

>>8583529
I like harmful park but it never sets my pants on fire. I'll play it to relax mostly but I think people jerk it off too much. einhander too I think that one sucks. There's really good shooters like ray storm on the console

>>8582505
dodonpachi on PS1 is legit better than Saturn in some ways
Strikers 1945 II as well
The Raiden PS1 ports are great

Can someone post the PS1 2d games webm? I think there are two of them

>>8578932
I play it on keyboard lol

>>8576645
One of miss opportunity by Nintendo part.

>>8565129
>Why was the Saturn so weak?
Because it was made as a 2d console with one extra chip in the hope this would be enough to make software 3d.

Sony made a full 3d console, yeah the quality was awful: wobbling polygons, floating textures but that was enough for kids and their CRT TV.

>>8567667
Dev kit which do debug.

>>8568736
Not him but I simply prefer the Saturn look. I will continue to think of the first game as a Saturn game that was simply ported to PS1 and moved there due to the failure of the Saturn in the west. This is my head canon and you cannot take that away from me.

>>8584602
People say this but it's just not true. Saturn was always designed for 3D. The reason they added the extra SH-2 is because they realized it needed more horsepower to push more polygons. The Saturn is actually a very capable 3D machine. It uses a now-archaic way of doing 3D but that's because back in the mid-90s there was no standard yet.

>>8585940
Read the interviews

>>8571232
Jaguar scared them into releasing the 32x.
Playstation is why they hacked on 3d support using warped sprites.

Both of these facts have been backed up by interviews with Sato, Miller, Kalinske, etc..

>>8571961
>The Saturn games have a really nice distinctive look, like >>8571605, that makes me go "Oh, that is a Saturn game"; same goes for the Dreamcast as well.

That's because both systems had to work with really low colour count, and that only looks great if you go for rainbow pastel colors like on that burning rangers webm, or Bulk Slash. If you look at Tomb Raider, even if the PS1 port has lower draw distance, you can also notice that it has much higher color count and much smoother shading.
On DC it was like RGBA4444, for Saturn you had 256-color out of a 2048 color palette (lightning included), but some games used something more basic like 4-color textures to save on VRAM and speed.

It's the same situation as Megadrive vs SNES, MD had less colours but if you used cartoony large contrast graphics like in Sonic, it looked great. It only sucked when you wanted more realistic looking stuff.

>>8586085
The warped sprites were always in the hardware though. It was always capable of manipulating 2D objects drawn to the frame buffer, which is how the Saturn does 3D. The interviews saying "we weren't thinking about 3D" isn't the same as "the system couldn't do 3D." It was always able to do 3D. They added the second CPU when they realized that doing 3D was something it would have to be much better at to keep pace.

>>8576116
>>8576135
>>8576305
Not how it happened, Core was making a 3d brawler and they asked Sega for the license, Sega declined (saying they had "other plans" for the franchise) and the game was rebranded. If it was started as SOR3d it's only because the creators of the game were fans and used it as a template.

>>8585940
>Saturn was always designed for 3D.
The hardware designer of the Saturn recently said in an interview that they designed it to push a shitload of sprites, because everyone at Sega wanted sprites, except Yu Suzuki who wanted 3d.
Then the Playstation specs came out and they manipulated the 2d engine so it can do 3d using distorted sprite drawing, instead of native uv mapped triangles. And they added the second SH2 for more power.

>The Saturn is actually a very capable 3D machine.
It's nearly a generation behind the Playstation. Somewhere between the 3do and the playstation when it comes to 3d. It's slow as fuck (practical fillrate barely reaching double digit mpixels), had very small texture memory, wastes a lot of that memory due to the way it draws sprites, low colour count, broken transparencies, difficult to use lightning (native shading only works in 1 draw mode which is the slowest and most wasteful, so people had to use software tricks and palette manipulation instead), and so on.
Nearly every good looking 3d game on the Saturn used extensive VDP2 tricks to get around all the 3d limitations, or to draw a flat plane ground / skybox to save on fillrate. PC and PS1 ports meanwhile all had worse color count, texture detail, framerate, and mesh transparencies.

>>8586098
>The warped sprites were always in the hardware though. It was always capable of manipulating 2D objects drawn to the frame buffer, which is how the Saturn does 3D.

We don't know the specifics but it is entirely possible it could only do 2-point transformable sprites at first, ie. it could scale and rotate them but the sprites remained uniform shape, and then they added 4-point arbitrary deformable sprites as a hack. After all the Saturn was based on Sega's arcade scaler hardware (System 32), and to the best of my knowledge none of those could do 4-point transformations. Cool Riders had this thing where you could manipulate the width of a sprite for every line to create pincushions or glass shapes and such, but that was something completely different (and developed most likely in parallel, making it a cousin to the Saturn hardware).

Hideki Sato mentions they added 3d CGI later on, by manipulating the 2d engine, I think this is what he could have meant.

>>8586126
The Saturn's 2D and 3D are the same though. They designed it to push a shit load of sprites but also what it can do with those sprites made for a perfectly good 3D machine absent some horsepower, which the slave SH2 subsequently provided. There was nothing inherently "correct" about native tris in 1994. What spooked Sega was that the PS1 was reportedly pushing 300,000 polygons, which the original Saturn architecture was not anywhere capable of matching. The Saturn's 3D wasn't hacked together. They just doubled down on what it was already able to do in the way it was able to do it.

>>8586139
That is possible but in order for that to be the case they probably would have had to revise the architecture a lot more than they reportedly did. They went to Hitachi and asked them to boost the SH2's capability but it was too late for that so Hitachi suggested setting up the master/slave dynamic with dual CPUs instead.

>>8586126
>Nearly every good looking 3d game on the Saturn used extensive VDP2 tricks to get around all the 3d limitations, or to draw a flat plane ground / skybox to save on fillrate.
That's what the VDP2 is good for though. It's weird to be like "The Saturn sucks because in order for it to be good they had to take advantage of the separate processor dedicated for background graphics." It's weird architecture but it's not bad architecture.

https://youtu.be/VutzIK3DqZE?t=215

Nice video on how the Saturn's 3D works in Tomb Raider.

>>8586157
Games that use vdp2 for 3d cheats looks weird

>>8586182
Which games?

>>8586140
>The Saturn's 2D and 3D are the same though.

They both used the same VDP1 pipeline but that doesn't make them the same. It's 3d used 4-point transformed quadrilaterals which wasted fillrate and broke transparencies when the sides were non-uniform. It also can't do UV mapping which was the bread and butter of texturing even back then.

>>8586140
>There was nothing inherently "correct" about native tris in 1994.
I see this bullshit parroted around on every Saturn thread, but it's not true. Triangles and uv texturing was the standard even by then. Look up the OpenGL 1.0 specs, it already talks about breaking down convex shapes into triangles for drawing, and using uv coordinates for texturing. It was not yet the "standard" for consumer hardware because consumer hardware was not fast enough to do it real-time. But workstations already rendered things that way.
Saturn basically manipulated its sprite engine so it can draw arbitrary polygons, but this was a hack job that wasted resources, looked like shit, broke many standard features, and was difficult to program for.

>>8586149
>in order for that to be the case they probably would have had to revise the architecture a lot more than they reportedly did.
Not really, no. If you have 2-point scaling and rotation then it's not that difficult to add in 4-point scaling. The working principle is the same, you just mess with the end xy positions for every strip of pixels being draw, plus add in extra overdraw so you wont get dropout when the height of vertex 1,4 is lower than 2,3 (ie. when left side is smaller than right side).

>>8565129
Wasn't the Saturn port of Womb Raider rushed to meet some sort of exclusivity deal?

>>8586157
If the Saturn was any good at drawing polygons, then it would not have needed to specifically use the VDP2 mode 7 floor. The problem with that isn't that they did this, it was that they never designed for this to work with 3d games in mind, so you can't do things like per-pixel z-sorting and transparency. Unless you change into paletted mode for the polygons, but then you can't do per-polygon transparency and you have to use palette hacks to trick the gouraud shading to work.
They could've gotten around it by using something like RGB4444 instead of 5551 but it's clear they added the 5551 mode without thinking how it works with the rest of the system. The entire vdp1/2 combination looks like it was only designed to work with palettes in mind and adding RGB drawing on top was a hack.

>It's weird architecture but it's not bad architecture.
It's a HORRIBLE architecture. It can be weird and fun if you are a hobby programmer, but if you want to port 3d games on it then it just sucks for everything.

>>8586186
>Which games?

There are quite a few Saturn games that use the 'infinite plane' 3D playing field. Panzer Dragoon 1 and 2, Sonic R does, Shining in the Holy Ark, those are just a few titles off the top of my head. Many of the 3D fighters from Virtua Fighter 2 and onward use this effect. Virtua Fighter 1 port uses polygon arenas and they have clipping issues.

>>8586219
>Wasn't the Saturn port of Womb Raider rushed to meet some sort of exclusivity deal?

Tomb Raider on the Saturn was released weeks before the other versions. But I am not sure if it was 'rushed'? I think it is a good version of Tomb raider overall. And sadly, one of the best 3D platformers on the system. I say sadly, because there really weren't that many made for the console. Croc, Burning Rangers, Tomb Raider, that 3D zone in Sonic Jam, Bug and Bug Too! are kinda 3D platformers, but use 2D sprites. But in comparison to the Playstation 1, which has like 5 Tomb Raider games, Spyro games, Croc games, Soul Reaver, and a lot of other random 3D platformers and Tomb Raider inspired clones.
I know the map designers for Tomb Raider 1 said that making something as simple as a spike was a challenge on the Saturn. They had to make the models and maps for the Saturn game and export them to the other consoles. This is also why Lara's Tomb Raider 1 model looked more 'cube-ish' than in later games. From Tomb Raider 2 onward, Core made the Playstation 1 the lead platform. Which did remove some limitations from the first game.

>>8586279
From what I remember, some of the earliest Tomb Raider 1 media (from 1995) that I remember seeing in Magazines, were from these CG promotional trailers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT7e-oRDc3Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaOcWZ4mkh8

Back then, it was really unclear as to what type of game Tomb Raider was going to be. When Core did finally start showing gameplay screenshots/ footage, the only game it could be compared to was the Mario 64 pre-release footage.