/vr/ - Retro Games

no it would've been panned due to 2D characters

>>8558713
SRB2 (rip) was one of the best games ever made. If it had came to the Saturn it would have been awesome.

>>8558704
Stop trying to attach your shitty mod to the greatest console of all time. It's pathetic, and you're like a dangling turd.

>>8558720
I'm just stating how people in that era thought. The fewer 2D elements it had, the more they celebrated a game.

>>8558728
Based. Fuck pixelshit.

>>8558704
It didn’t handle engines like this well. In fact this in particular is what it did poorly. Sonic Extreme initially tried this approach but the results were too poor to be usable. That’s why this style FPS was just a total non starter on the Saturn

>>8558728
I suppose you might be right, people of that era actually also thought that N64 texture smoothing looked good and gl-quake looked better than software rendering so they were obviously severely retarded.

>>8558720
Rip? It's still popular.

>>8558745
Powerslave was on saturn

>>8558704
The cruder engine definitely would have been underlined in criticism; even if the game was solid, it just couldn't have been considered a real competitor to SM64 or CB.

Plus, a BSP engine can't do loops.

>>8558809
Powerslave wasn’t BSP. It’s a perfect example of what I’m saying. There’s performance trade off for BSP engines that usually don’t matter. The Saturn is an absolute nightmare to work with anon

>>8558858
>Powerslave wasn’t BSP
Not him, but I didn't know the console ports didn't use Build, that's interesting.

>>8558746
N64 texture smoothing does look good.

>>8558872
I mean maybe if you have cataracts and don't know any better.

>>8558871
>fabiensanglard net/duke3d/build_engine_internals.php

Build doesn’t use a BSP tree anon. The the VDP is too slow for any raycasting engine to work well. Powerslave runs well because of Build.

For additional reading see
>lostmediawiki com/Doom_(lost_prototype_of_Sega_Saturn_port_of_first-person_shooter;_1996-1997)

>>8558704
That's what Sonic Xtreme was supposed to be. Of course everyone would've shat on it compared to SM64 and Crash, it's not nearly as visually impressive. At least put in actual 3D models.

>>8558892
I've played that version of Quake where you can turn the filter off, and it looks better with it on.

>>8558898
>The the VDP is too slow for any raycasting engine to work well.
Someone ported Doom to the 32x so it runs at a stable framerate and full screen, the Saturn is 20% faster in raw clockspeed so it could probably handle that fine. That's before you add in the VDP1 for any acceleration.

Apparently the original programmer of the game used the VDP1 for acceleration and got solid 60fps too, but Carmack bitched about the perspective warping and they axed it.

>Powerslave runs well because of Build.
Powerslave runs its own custom engine built from scratch with the Saturn in mind, and even that one drops the framerate quite a lot.

>>8558909
Nah.

>>8558704
I've tried to play this several times and I find it disorienting and janky as fuck
Maybe it would actually play better if the speed was toned down for console limitations.

>>8558871
Yeah, lobotomy software knew how to handle the Saturn. The Saturn version of Dook Nookum 3D is probably the best console version of the game in all honesty, it’s really impressive especially given the Saturn’s reputation as being a monster to develop for. Powerslave is also the best version of the game period on Saturn. Can’t say the same for Doom however which stings quite a bit

>>8559520
The trick is to think like you're playing an fps. Camera control is very important.

>>8558746
Texture smoothing is better than horribly sized pixel garble sometimes. I prefer sharp pixels, but the smoothing and blurrying can be alright.

>>8558720
>SRB2 (rip)
Anon, its still updated and servers are up right now.
The fuck are you talking about?

>>8559520
Are you playing with a controller or are you playing it like a Doom wad with a mouse and keyboard (as intended)? Shouldn't be disorienting for more than a minute if at all.

>>8558704
That looks like it handles like dogshit

>>8559547
He believes past a certain version they downgraded it so it's dead to him.

>>8559559
It actually handles fine
>>8559560
Even though it's been getting better and better with each update.

>>8558704
>Say something like this was released as the Sega Saturn Sonic in 1996
no, you idiot

>>8559569
>Even though it's been getting better and better with each update
Better is an opinion, I believe it has been completely ruined. Some time around 2010 it started to going wrong, recent changes are even worse though, then even ruined the music.

The fact that SRB2 was never completed within the creative context of 2006-2008 is an open wound on my life which will never heal and only death will free me from this pain.

>>8559779
the only thing i don't like about nu-srb2 is the slope physics feel very obviously hacked in and kinda unpredictable. it's certainly not worse than the 3 zone version that just reuses greenflower's assets in different colors for castle eggman.

>>8558829
you can make hacky loops in srb2 so it would probably be possible. just have a script that rolls the character through a "loop" that's really just a floor attached to a wall attached to a ceiling. wouldn't be any more automated than adventure loops anyway.

>>8558909
BASED! I've thought the same thing when I play it. Unfiltered N64 is a meme. The filter is there for a reason, because it looks awesome.

>>8558704
no i think it would only exist as a tech-demo.
>"Wow! look at would 3d sonic COULD be like!"
and it would never get green-lit because investors would bring up issues and questions that the devs wouldn't have answers for at the time.

>>8559817
You could just do what 3D Blast did and have the loop be a sprite animation. That's pretty much functionally what they are in Adventure and modern 3D Sonic anyway.
I mean, if you would want that, which I personally don't see the need for.

>>8558704
No one would want it. Same reason why Sonic Xtreme would've failed if it actually got finished, doesn't matter how good the games played no one wanted 2D anymore after Crash and Mario 64 showed 3D WAS the future and anyone who says otherwise or shits on my boy Bernie are revisionist faggots.

I just don't think that "gotta go fast" is a good enough gameplay philosophy beyond 2D.

>>8559948
How is gotta go fast not cool as fuck in a 3d world?

>>8559954
It was cool as fuck in 2D when all you do is side scrolling.
In 3D there's a lot more space for content, the best solution is to slow the player down somehow. Even Crash Bandicoot does that.
Fact is that Sonic never succeeded beyond 2D.

>>8559963
I disagree, a 3D world is more fun to see fast paced than 2D, I think racing games prove that

>>8559965
You can disagree all you want but you're still wrong because you are disagreeing. To be right you'd be in agreement but because you're in disagreement you are wrong. These are the conditions for which have been set and you will abide by them good day.

>>8559954
Because going fast in 3D requires an air-tight level design that can take months to pull off, only for a reasonably competent player to go through it in a couple of minutes. The level of investment needed vs the return on playtime is atrocious, hence why 3D Sonic has a bunch of substantially slower playstyles and other gimmicks.

>>8558704
it would have been pretty shitty .
even if you like srb2, its still a doom game and the engine makes it blatant.
a real sonic would need real 3d like sonic jam

>>8558728
ff7 is the second best selling game of the ps1. resident evil games were hugely successful too.

>>8559779
The music is so much better now among other things like level design, sprites, bosses, and overall aesthetics.

>>8559963
sonic 2d doesn't work because you have to see what's in front of you to gg fast

>>8559997
You know what I meant. Pre-rendered backgrounds were seen as technologically cutting edge and adult. Stop being obtuse.

>>8559935
I mean, Crash is pretty much 2D. Maybe moreso than Sonic X-treme, which was focused more on these fully open exploitable spaces, as opposed to corridors like Crash. The sprites they were using for X-treme they probably would have gotten away with, because they're about as convincing in their fake 3D effect as Mario Kart 64 was. Yoshi's Story even used sprites, and I don't think I noticed at the time.
The problems X-treme seemed to be facing was firstly performance, and secondly taking that jumble of stuff you see in the demos and actually making fun level designs out of them.

>>8560010
I very much disagree but I suppose everyone is different, kind of like how some people like win10/11 this is the same.

Personally I have fantasized about destruction of the entire world because of SRB2. The level of mental anguish is not something you could ever now. I wish the universe would end.

>>8559779
I've only played the more recent versions. What was different?

>>8558704
assuming it plays as well as the PC version (which might be a tall order), it would've done fine. you'll notice that while Crash has nice graphics, the gameplay is super simple. people just wanted a fun Sonic game that made good use of new technological possibilities, which this is.

>>8560396
>What was different?
The game was worse in almost every way before the recent version. It's still worth checking out, though because the level layouts and bosses are totally different.

>>8559520
it's honestly not that good of a game, just stands out as an important and notable fangame in a long history

>>8558704
It was a different time. Anything less than full 3d would be seen as inferior

>>8560382
It's always strange to see people whine this hard about improvements, but I guess it just proves that you can't please everybody. The older versions are still available to download and play you know. If you want to play it like that you totally can. Why be this mad about it when the older versions are still there?

>>8560650
That's not necessarily true. You just had to hide it well. Mario Kart 64's racers are not 3D.

>>8560657
Mario 64 itself has a lot of sneaky 2D elements. Mostly spheres and trees.

>>8559979
This explains why Mirror's Edge was so short.

Are there any fully 3D 5th gen platformers or action style games that use sprites for player characters, come to think of it? It would be interesting to see what that would look like

>>8560657
They weren't hidden that well 2bh. If anything, that game proved that people could accept sprite-populated 3D if the game was good enough

>>8560679
Bulk Slash

>>8560692
Not for the main character

>>8559979
unless there's unique assets absolutely everywhere i don't see why this is a big deal. the adventure games didn't seem to have a problem making visually distinct levels with some depth and the boost games look amazing despite outright incentivizing you to blast through everything. it just doesn't seem like this is sega's problem with 3d sonic

>>8560679
Xenogears and Azure Dreams

>>8560667
mirror's edge has a perfect length for what it is imo, it doesn't outstay its welcome and the story is garbage anyway so the cliffhanger doesn't really matter
sequel was pretty bad but had some standout moments in the missions, making it this extremely limited open world was dumb as fuck

>>8560726
Those are top down though. I mean games where you can fully move the camera around.

>>8560725
Yeah, I've never quite understood this argument. Correct me if I'm being retarded but the difference between a big stage and a small stage in a game is mostly just a matter of inputting a larger number to make the ground longer, right? They're not literally modeling every square of ground. You have repeating textures and assets to take care of that.

>>8560651
>improvements
Art is subjective, the new SRB2 is an abomination according to my values.

And yes, the old version still exists, but it was never finished, and can never be finished. It will remain in limbo forever until the heat death of the universe.

>>8560862
Stop being a picky faggot then. The new SRB2 is awesome. You sound like a kid who refuses to eat his vegetables even if they've been sauteed in a delicious teriyaki sauce.

>>8560862
Deal with it

>>8560739
if anything 3d sonic could use more asset repetition, especially in the boost games where you're likely to blow through and not even notice an asset if it's only used once.

>>8560679
Dragon Ball Z Legends maybe?

>>8558727
based.

>>8558704
>instead of making a gif of him going fast, i'll make a gif of him bumping on shit

>>8560862
You, weirdly enough, are one of the most reasonable people I've seen on /vr/

>>8558872
>>8559818
based

>>8559981
A srb2-like game in jam's engine would've been great

>Smega FatTurd
Cringe.

>>8559779
>even ruined the music
i agree, which is why i made this: https://gamebanana.com/sounds/50211
there's some other stuff i dont like about the newer versions, but nothing even comes close to the garbage attempt at mania-ifying the original music

>>8558704
I fucking hate Sonic lol

>>8562269
this but replace sonic with niggers

>>8558704
I started getting into this game recently. Yes, the controls feel like dogshit, but require learning as you would any other game you pick up. If you grew up with DOOM with just keyboard, and no mouse, it will take getting used to. Haven't tried it with my Xbox controller yet.

The online servers are crazy with weird and "special" kids being usual retarded zoomer kids. If you're too bored to play the single player campaign, just hop into the "24/7 Vanilla" server and practice there and watch the retardation unfold of kids talking about why their balls are dropping and hating fags.

Pic half-related.

>>8559963
>Sonic never succeeded beyond 2D
Incorrect, SA games sold like hotcakes and were very well-received. Unsubscribe from your revisionist YouTube channels.

>>8558704
So I was thinking about what it would take to port this game to the Saturn and then I finally internalized why the Saturn sucked at 3d. No uv mapping, how are you expected render all the non rectangular geometry this game uses without uv mapping.

>>8558713
nah it would of done alright,sure it would of been compared to mario 64 alot and slammed as inferior but sonic fans would of loved it for its sense of speed

>>8558745
retard take,the saturn could easily handle a modded doom engine which is all srb2 is

>>8559779
check out sonic smackdown anon,let that heal you

its awesome

>>8559935
mania sold and forces flopped,you are wrong

>>8559981
no cause the draw distance and the speed of sonic having to be nerfed to a crawl so assets can be loaded in quick enough made it shit

sure it looks good BUT! sonic is literally going slow af and why? cause the world is tiny in jam and even then the saturn struggles to draw everything,now imagine sonic running at even his most basic adventure speed not inc boosting......yeah nah

the main reason 3d sonic games sucked for so long is the tech and storage capacity was simply not there to render quick enough a world around a character that can run as fast as sound or to store the amount of data needed to build a believable world,so they always had to slow him down or build the game around boost corridors which are much easier to load in for hardware but make the game boring and restrictive.

its only in the last few years the hardware has been able to give what sonic needs,IE sonic utopia,and even sega knows it hence frontiers.

>>8562446
if you pulled it off you would be a literal hero to the sonic community,go for it man

>>8558713
You mean like bulk slash?

Does anybody know if Windows 98 supports SRB2?

>>8562558
What was the western reception of Bulk Slash again?

>>8562604
You wanna narrow down your criteria a bit more, I think it’s too broad

>>8558731
>Based. Fuck pixelshit.
NES dev here, being one generation ahead of Atari level graphics is kinda spooky.

>>8558872
Depends on what your looking for. As a pixel enjoyer, I like Playstations dithering a bit better.

>>8559981
Couldn't you pull off what 3d Blast and Mario Cart 64 did and pre render the 3d assets into sprites? That way you could save space while keeping up the illusion that it was all rendered in real time. The 90s reviwers pog over "next gen graphics" while you keep the poly count low.

>>8562742
That's exactly what X-treme was going to do. In that particular early build anyway.
there's a mod to add those particular sprites to SRB2, which looks pretty good actually.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmShRillMgk

>>8558704
Sega should've told Sonic Team to make a Sonic game for the Saturn's launch
Like, no Mr. Naka, you can make your fruity little clown game AFTER I get my guaranteed million-seller

https://youtu.be/SzhcXHPavgk
this game is the only 3d sonic worth its name. just look how packed the level is with things to explore

>>8558713
Just like Mario Kart 64?

>>8562880
Mario Kart 64 at the time didn't have competition. That hypothetical Sonic would've been pitted against Mario 64, Croc, Crash Bandicoot...

>>8559979
It's an arcade game

Sega knew 3d platforming was shit and was only forced into doing a 3d Sonic for the Dreamcast when everyone else was doing 3d platforming shit.
Face it, the mid to late 90s was the death of videogames thanks to shit like 3d platformers being praised despite their horrible, laughable flaws.

>>8563253
ok retard

>>8560630
>>8559779
>it's worse because....it just is!
The worst kind of autism...normalfag autism

>>8563349
I'm not elaborating because it's literally clear as day when you take a look at each version. There's really nothing more that needs to be said.

>>8563641
Your autistic preferences are not clear as day to the rest of us

>>8563194
Not necessarily. It could have released prior to Mario 64 and Crash Bandicoot had they not been stupid about it.

>>8563740
You might have me confused with the anon who prefers classic srb2

>>8563767
>had they not been stupid about it.
well that was the main problem with Sega overall.

>>8563641
I see a straight forward linear progression. The early versions are kind of charming in a low end fangame kind of way, but that's it really.

>>8563802
I'm the anon in support of the newest versions. I'm not the one claiming that srb2 has been "ruined" ever since it became a better game.

>>8558704
Most likely. Its one of the reasons they shit the bed. All their IPs from the Genesis didnt follow AT ALL. Where is golden axe? Wheres shinobi? Fuck wheres vector man??

They tried to do a streets of rage 4. Which eventually became fighting force and released on all platforms.

It really really needed a sonic game and other home sega games. Its why with the dreamcast. The dream launched with a sonic game.

>>8563740
>>8563802
>>8563349
When I posted >>8560630 I was referring to CLASSIC srb2. I should have worded it better.

>>8563820
>Where is golden axe?
Golden Axe: The Duel did exist, but it was a 1v1 fighter.

>>8563820
Sega have always been kind of weird about this. Why did they drop some of their early hits like Alex Kidd and Space Harrier so fast? They could definitely have carried those franchises on. They just didn't. New things took priority.

This thread taught me that there will always be that ONE autist out there somewhere going against the grain, whether by ego, contrarinism or because they're that genuinely mentally ill. Nothing short of a systematic culling will be left to do.

>>8563897
True but thats a forgettable bad game but yeah i guess it technically did exist
I know its been beaten to death but they shoulda ported golden axe death adders revenge
>>8563912
I think alex kidd had a really early genesis game that basically coulda been a master system game and then boom dropped.

>>8564026
>I think alex kidd had a really early genesis game that basically coulda been a master system game and then boom dropped.
It was a terribly shit game

>>8563912
There’s only so much you can do with Space Harrier and its gameplay. >>8564026
Alex Kidd in the Enchanted Castle is atrocious. Easily one of the worst games for the system

>>8558858
There's nothing about BSP trees that makes performance worse (than what, exactly?)

Stop talking about things you don't understand.

>>8558829
>Plus, a BSP engine can't do loops.

Quake uses BSPs and can do stuff like loops.

>Build doesn’t use a BSP tree anon. The the VDP is too slow for any raycasting engine to work well.

Nothing being discussed here uses raycasting. Build doesnt, and neither does Doom despite it being a common misunderstanding. Powerslave on the saturn uses a custom engine, not build like the pc version. I suspect it uses BSPs internally like the pc version of Quake, but I'm not sure.

>>8563820
There was a Shinobi action game on Saturn, along with a Golden Axe game and Sonic games. They just weren't the "console war" "killer apps" you seem to have wanted

>>8562470
Damn it's like 3D HAD BEEN AROUND FOR OVER 20 YEARS BY THAT POINT OR SOMETHING DUDE

>>8558871
>Not him, but I didn't know the console ports didn't use Build, that's interesting.

Duke Nukem Total meltdown for the PS1 actually uses a port of the Build Engine. The levels use the same map data as the PC version, but textures were cut down in size to work within the PS1 hardware. PS1 port is the most accurate version of Duke 3D on 5th generation consoles. But it suffers from a bad framerate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1xve5sk1_4&t=22s

The Saturn port was rebuilt from scratch using Lobotomy's Slave Driver engine. The original Duke 3D 'build' levels had to be redesigned and the layouts were changed to work within the confines of Lobotomy's Slave Driver engine. Build can do 'impossible' geometry, and overlap sectors over each other and there are times when level geometry just couldn't work in a real 3D environment. So the Saturn Duke 3D maps had to work within real 3D space. Also, the Slave Driver engine is missing many features from build, like moving sectors, moving tram cars , swinging doors (replaced with 'star trek' doors). Etc. It was a nice version of Duke 3D on the Saturn, but the most inaccurate port of it too. The N64 port is much closer to the original PC game than the Saturn port. The N64 port uses a modified Build engine with 3D polygon rendering. Though, many of the maps were redesigned in this version too.

>>8558745
>Sonic Extreme initially tried this approach but the results were too poor to be usable
Its because the retard programmer was coding for PC instead of native hardware, of course its not going to work.

>>8558704
SRB2 was made with some of the same flawed design principles of the SA games. So, same mistakes just earlier.

>>8564858
Elaborate on that

>>8559779
>>8563810
Which old version is the cutoff for that one dude's autism, I wanna go into both it and the latest build blind for the first time and see if he's full of shit
https://wiki.srb2.org/wiki/Versions#SRB2_TGF

>>8565332
v1.09.4 is the definitive version. V2.0 is where they started screwing things up. Through "Deep Sea Zone" is an ok addition. Absolutely hated the new castle eggman.

>>8565361
>v1.09.4 is the definitive version
It's definitely the one with the most SOUL, but in terms of content and presentation it's objectively inferior to the post-2.0 versions.

>>8565332
OP here: Finished v1094
>blitzed to the end as Sonic
>tried to get al 7 emeralds as Tails, fucked up
>succeeded at getting them all as Knuckles
It was only just OK. Quick thoughts:
>Controls for turning sucked, level design wasn't terrible, but nothing noteworthy. Second zone is the only notably fun one all the way through.
>Special stages were bullshit, I'd only found 7 chances total across the entire game after searching with Tails and Knuckles. Having to do SS5 and SS6 back to back was hell, the timer was zeroed out on my victories on both of them.
I really don't see myself recommending v1094 to anyone. Downloading the latest v2290 now to compare.

>>8567808
You want to do "24/7 Vanilla"" server?

>>8567808
>>Controls for turning sucked
Are you referring to not being able change trajectory whilst in the air?
The code has an interesting mechanic where the absolute horizontal speed is capped, and in this case no additional speed will be applied, but due to the way this is coded, if you are in the air moving forward, and turn left 90°, you will not change direction because the speed cap is still in place. To change direction in the air you have to turn beyond 90° such to decelerate your forward motion to disable the speed cap.

That's another point about control. A 3d Sonic at launch would use a clunky digital control scheme before analog control became standard. Even if a launch 3d Sonic looked utterly amazing, Mario 64 would still upstage it with the better control. And more realistically, a 3d Sonic wouldn't have looked or controlled very well. By the time Sega could answer Mario 64 with an analog controlled Sonic, Saturn was already dead

>>8567808
Bumping for this

>>8565332 >>8567808
OP again; just finished Sonic's campaign for the first time with 5 of the emeralds, and did half of another lap in the same save for the others. Of the two SRB2 builds I've played, latest build is no contest the better one.
>controls for turning feel so much more natural, swerving around corners is so fluid
>level design is denser and richer with cool level gimmicks, slope-jumping exists now and feels incredibly fun to plan movement around
>Special Stages chances are nice and common, the N.i.D. minigames themselves require some practice (6 and 7 are tough) and are a joy once you've gotten them down.
v1094 does it's best to superficially resembles a Sonic game, v2290 is *actually* a Sonic game, and a fun one. Very exited to try out the other characters.
>>8567820
How does multiplayer work? I'd love to fool around with /vr/ anons

>>8571484
Can't forget to mention the amount of replayability that 2.2 has. There are multiple routes to take per level, and even more characters to choose from as well. Bosses are much more fun and unlike 1.09.4, the final boss is actually something awesome and not pathetic. This is why I didn't even explain why the newest version is better, it's so obvious to anyone who's not mental.

>>8571484
V1094-kun btfo

I don't like what I hear about future versions, but I personally had a blast with 2.2

>>8571668
What's up with future versions?

>>8571706
Most if not all of the original team is gone due to internal drama, and they plan on removing the thok.

God damn I wish this game was on the Saturn

>>8571712
No thok? That fucking blows, it was so fun and satisfying to use.

>>8562842
what they should have done is hired a yakuza goon to shoot yuji naka in his kneecaps and throw him in toyko bay with bricks strapped to his waist and got someone competent to make the sonic game

>>8562842
Sonic wasn't successful in Japan. It wouldn't have been a guaranteed million seller. NiGHTs sold way more copies than any of the three released Saturn sonic games together.

>>8558727
>greatest console of all time
He's not talking about Super Nintendo and Xbox though.