/vr/ - Retro Games

When they merged with Enix

Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within

>>8504969
Enix
though, they've release some fun games among the sea of garbage through out the years.

>>8504969
You posted three examples of that

>>8504969
With FFVII

>>8504985
This is a historical fact.

It's the reason why we didn't get Xenogears 2 and why the current Xeno series - which supports an entire company on its own - is cucking Square Enix like a gang of five black bulls.

>>8504985
THIS LITERALLY
This is how they fell from grace, became broke, cheapened the FF brand that was otherwise definitely on its way to mainstream appeal.

>>8504969
the PS1 era when they let their writers take the brakes off. stuff like FF8 and Chrono Cross was the beginning of the end and the Kingdom Hearts clusterfuck was the logical conclusion.

FFX-II is the first irredeemably shit Final Fantasy, so that seems as good a point as any.

FF TSW was so embarrassing for everybody involved that it has been thoroughly memoryholed. But it’s the reason Sakaguchi lost his standing at the company and why square’s PS1 era of wild creativity and hit after hit turned into mostly safe mediocrity on PS2 and onward.

>>8505008
Seething FFVIII crybaby
>>8505473
>>8504985
The only good answers. The Enix merger was only possible because Spirits Within tanked Square. I also blame FF8, of course. It's cool if you like it but most peoole didnt to be forced to mash button during summons, autistically play cards, or farm enemies for mats just to get through the game. Also the story was dogshit.

>>8505473
>>8505494
The writing just got bad. The games started to take themselves seriously, and once that happens you simultaneously alienate the segment of your customer base that has good taste and appreciates good writing (small to begin with), attract the cringe autistic keyblade retards, and cheapen the reputation of your brand.

The franchise had a reputation for quality and there were high expectations in the 16-bit era. FF6 already knocked the brakes off and had ambitious concepts and sequences, a unique and memorable setting, and characters that were very well fleshed out by the standards of the time and had mostly relatable motivations. It was a great game, and it didn't take itself too seriously, and that made the gaffs forgivable and the whole thing easy to like. The writing was good and they knew when to inject levity.

Ff 1-3 shit
FF4 6/10
Ff5 8/10
Ff6 7/10
Ff7 10/10
Ff8 8/10
Ff9 6/10
Ffx 7/10
Ffx-2 7/10
Ff12 6/10
Ff12 international 8/10
Ff13 (never played)
Ff backstreet boys edition 1/10

>>8504972
/thread

>>8505601
The merger came after Spirits Within decimated the company

>>8505554
Square's management wrongly believed Sakaguchi was the Japanese Steven Spielberg and that Nomura was their "mainstream gaming guy." Add to that the abandonment of finances for anything not-FF.

Honestly that whole story is underrated in gaming history. FF7->Spirits Within has to have been the biggest surge in popularity followed by the fastest implosion a gamedev has ever had.

For all intents and purposes, there really wasn't a "merger." They called it that so Squaresoft could save face but the reality is that Enix was the surviving entity. The Enix executives all kept their roles while the Square side hemorrhaged talent. Tetsuya Nomura happened to be the last man standing and immediately went batshit crazy. While it may not be technically true in the paperwork, Squaresoft went defunct in 2001 in every way that actually matters. It's really no different than whoever owns the Atari brand name these days. It's not the same entity.

>>8505639
Very interesting and vindicates >>8505607

>>8505630
The Spirits Within saga is one of the most compelling stories in gaming lore because of how crazy it all was. Squaresoft bet the farm on CGI being the future of not just filmmaking but ACTORS. They thought they were going to get in on the ground floor of a paradigm shift where human stars are replaced by CGI "actors" who never age. They were pushing Aki Ross as a "digital actress." CNN was even doing puff pieces on the subject.
https://youtu.be/9xGAh3E-14Y

Squaresoft went so far as to build an entire studio in Hawaii under the assumption that they'd be churning out movies "starring" Aki Ross and others. The movie bombing wasn't really the biggest problem. It was all the investments surrounding the film. Had they been sane and just subcontracted out the film then a box office bomb wouldn't have ruined them the way it did. They basically got too big for their britches.

>>8505443
What's crazy is how many PS1 era IPs they abandoned in the wake of their ambitions. Its like they got so big that they decided that video games were suddenly beneath them. It has the same vibe as when a band's lead singer decides that he's going to go solo because he assumes everyone just wants to see him and the band is holding him back.

>>8505607
The merger was in the works for years, TSW delayed it but it also gave Enix the high ground they needed to turn the terms in their favor, see >>8505639

>>8505598
Mildly retarded take

>>8505630
>>8505667
I didn't know they got quite this insane. It's hard to imagine being so out of touch with reality that they thought all that shit was a good idea. Even out of touch with what made them money and got them on the map in the first place: fantasy adventure games where cute little cartoon characters ride giant birds, fly blimps, sing opera, and save the world. Imagine if instead of Spirits Within they had hired Studio Ghibli or somebody like that to make a Final Fantasy animated film targeting children. Beautiful animation, a fairly simple adventure plot that teaches some sort of lesson, recognizable character designs built off of their strong preexisting intellectual property, maybe a talking turtle, a moogle village, that sort of thing. They would've smashed it and made a fucking shitload of money on the movie and merchandise. Sad.

>>8506073
I think it's important to remember that Squaresoft went from nearly closing shop in 1987 to releasing Final Fantasy VII in 1997. Its like what happens when you give an 20 year old star athlete a multimillion dollar NFL contract and then act surprised when he goes crazy. They saw George Lucas spouting his nonsense but also making very popular Star Wars prequels that TECHNICALLY were "revolutionary" in a purely technological sense and made the assumption that the future of filmmaking would be some kind of sci-fi fantasy lunacy.

>>8505483
X-2 is a great game though. It's just got the worst story

>>8504985
Pretty much this. It sidelined all other Square franchises outside of FF and DQ, and there weren't as many experimental/one off games. SquareEnix has gotten significantly better over the past few years. No where as good as they were on the PS1, but much better than during later PS2 and PS3 era.

You know what? FFX feels like the last “classic” Square game and the first “modern” Square game at the same time.

>>8505667
>>8506073
With how people (me included) were impressed by FF7's and FF8's CGI cutscenes I frankly believed the same thing as them. That in the future that sort of thing would replace actors because it was so realistic. It's weird to me seeing how shit it all looks now in retrospect. And of course I was just a kid, those are executives who should know better.

>>8506095
That doesn't seem relevant at all. Square from 1987 to 1998 was a reasonably conservative company. FF7 was a game that made all the right decisions as far as NOT changing designs that worked well during the 16 bit era, for the most part.
>>8506073
>Imagine if instead of Spirits Within they had hired Studio Ghibli or somebody like that to make a Final Fantasy animated film targeting children. Beautiful animation, a fairly simple adventure plot that teaches some sort of lesson, recognizable character designs built off of their strong preexisting intellectual property, maybe a talking turtle, a moogle village, that sort of thing. They would've smashed it and made a fucking shitload of money on the movie and merchandise. Sad.
My thoughts exactly. At the time, I didn't think in terms of Studio Ghibli specifically or even anime, just that it was really weird that a Final Fantasy movie seemed to feature grays and browns, bland character designs, and more of a pure sci-fi feel than a fantasy feel (it looked like Alien to me).

>>8506228
yeah because it is.
It's got some Uematsu, but not all.
It's got traditional combat design, but with the signature active-time element removed
It's got traditional environment exploration with random encounters, but no overworld dynamic.
Character designs are from the same guy that did FF7, but now going all-out on weird but still sex appeal.

>>8506258
>it was really weird that a Final Fantasy movie seemed to feature grays and browns, bland character designs, and more of a pure sci-fi feel than a fantasy feel (it looked like Alien to me).
Everything in that era was moving towards soul-less "realism". You can see that on super hero movies. Look at X-Men (the original 2000 movie) you don't have Wolverine wearing his yellow costume or Cyclops wearing his blue costume, everyone is wearing black, almost like they are ashamed of the source material and want to be seen as "grown up". The same sentiment made Dr. Doom no longer a wizard in the FF movie because a grown up movie doesn't have silly magic stuff, you need scientific realistic explanations even if it's just "radiation mutated me somehow". Also the same reason Galactus is just a cloud in the sequel instead of a goofy purple guy. Or why the demons in the Doom movie are really aliens from another dimension. So considering these sentiments at the time they probably thought having dragons, giant swords and wizards with colorful costumes was not serious enough for a grown up Hollywood movie.

>>8506073
>Imagine if instead of Spirits Within they had hired Studio Ghibli or somebody like that to make a Final Fantasy animated film targeting children
Hire Toei to make a Dragon Ball styled Chrono Trigger anime. Do the same for Dragon Quest. Job done.

>>8506095
Well said. I hadn't considered the Star Wars prequel connection. It's wild to think that anybody saw that and decided to hitch their horse to that wagon.

>>8506258
I think FF7 was the beginning of the end in that they let things get too edgy. They did a great job with the game, but it set a precedent and it opened the door for more of that later on, and that was a mistake.

>>8506303
I remember this trend, too. I'm glad it petered out.

>>8506258
You don't think it's relevant that a company that sold 10 million copies of a game was on it's last legs only a decade prior? That windfall could easily go to people's heads. Remember that a lot of these guys were not that old at the time. They were 20-somethings in the 80s and obviously 30-somethings in the 90s. It would have been party time.

>>8505598
>FFX 7/10
kek good one

>>8506298
I remember reading that for FFX they were going for something unlike anything else. Previous games in the series always borrowed (or stole) from other things. So for FFX they went really left field on purpose.

>>8506396
>FFX 7/10
>kek good one
Right? A solid 5 in its best moments, the slampig of FFs.

>>8504969
Kingdom Hearts

Nah, FFX is Square's best game and is full of soul. FFX-2 was closer to what you're saying, but I'd say Kingdom Hearts or Musashi Samurai Legend is when the shift happened

>>8506437
It's the only FF from 1-12 I've never managed to complete. I only manage to play it for 30mins before thinking "fuck this" and forgetting about it for a few weeks. I've tried many times and gotten about 20 hours in but it just never grabs me enough to bother to complete it

>>8506459
>FFX is Square's best game
It's not embarrassing like 12-15, but let's not get carried away.

I don't get why people don't like 12.

>>8506503
The only one that comes close is 7
X is better

>>8506520
I like 12, but it was also a game butchered by execs. And I even like Vaan too.And the story was super boring, a huge step down.

>>8506520
>>8506552
Zodiac age may be one of my favorite games in the series. I was ready to throw my controller through the window because the trial mode Judges kept kicking my teeth in. The story felt unfinished. There's no real fall out from defying the Undying

>>8504969
>leppypeppy fan smash render
neck yourself OP

>>8505598
>Ff6 7/10
ahue

>>8504969
i legit hate toriyama's same face.

FFX-2 is more fun than FFX
Square got fucked by the movie, simple as that. They should have just made Advent Children in 2001 instead, since that movie was successful.
There's not many big-name Japanese dev companies that have survived the 2000s. Is there even a single one? Capcom and Konami are shells of their former selves, SquareEnix is full-teenage girl now, Tecmo, Namco, SNK, Hudson, Sega, etc are all beaten up, some are dead.
Nintendo stands alone, and just barely.

I know the game is godawful (and not retro) but picrel reminds me of when Squaresoft was creative and experimental, instead of endlessly fumbling with sequels and licensed crap

>>8506258
Square betting everything on a remake of Aliens from 15 years ago is the most baffling part

>>8505598
>Ff9 6/10
>Ff6 7/10
Pull your shorts down, I'm gonna black you.

>>8504972
See I dunno about that, FFXII and DQ8 are still some of the best games of their respective series

>>8507253
>FFX-2 is more fun than FFX
Correct.

>>8507530
to add to that I think game quality in general has declined since 7th gen, hence why we are on /vr/

>>8507253
From Software figured out how to AAA.
Koei has given up on their bread and butter, but diversified, and Gust are bigger than they used to be as a result. Koei made some cool games with Team Ninja. Atlus was bought by Sega, but is doing well.

Daily reminder that Minecraft has sold 100 million more than the entire final fantasy franchise

>>8507673
daily reminder, how much a game sells is not indicative of how much I like it or care

>>8507673
nobody cares

>>8505483
FFX-II is objectively better than FFX and I'm tired of pretending it's not.
They both suck but at least FFX-2 has way more fun customization and waifus

>>8506095
>Its like what happens when you give an 20 year old star athlete a multimillion dollar NFL contract and then act surprised when he goes crazy.
>it’s the money it’s not because they’re a n–

>>8507530
SE can't interject in DQ's production, Horii owns the rights and has the final say on how they're made.

>>8508061
as far as I'm aware that wasn't his role in DQ8
he was the writer

>>8508064
His company Armor Project holds the rights to Dragon Quest. That's how he could afford to take 5 year breaks between the mainline games. No one's really in position to boss him around.

it's kind of funny thinking back now as a young teenager who didn't really delve into how well these companies were doing financially or really anything but the content of the games themselves, and i assumed "oh, square must have just decided to take on this little company that does those dragon warrior games" when in reality it was the other way around

>>8507530
>DQ8 not a significant stepdown from 5-7
Sure

>>8508082
DQ8 was a level 5 game
>>8508090
>7 better than 8
Way to out yourself

>>8508086
I didn't even know Enix or ever heard of any of their games, I just thought Square changed their name.

>>8508154
Really?
You never played soul blazer, illusion of Gaia or terranigma?
None of the Dragon Warrior games?
Not even actraiser?

>>8508156
Only after growing up a little and discovering emulation but that was well after the merger.

>>8508149
>DQ8 was a level 5 game
Armor Project is not a developer, it's a company created by Horii to hold the rights to DQ.

>>8508187
What’s the point you’re trying to make?
That Squareenix had zero involvement in DQ8 so it’s exempt?

>>8508196
No, the point I'm trying to make is that DQ's development can't be pressured by a publisher, because new games can't be made without the go-ahead from Horii's company. Level 5 made DQ8 because they were commissioned and granted the license by Armor Project, then SE stepped in when it was time to roll the game out into the stores. That's how DQ has always been made and published, even before the merger.

>>8506393
No, because I know how long a decade is.

>>8506503
Kids born in the 90s actually believe X is a great game.

>>8508149
7 is better than 8, anon. It and 5 are easily the best games in the series

>>8508156
the first three i honestly thought were eurojank for a lot of my life

>>8507238
>I only briefly saw Dragon Ball "Z" in my life

When they teamed up with Electronic Arts

>>8508358
>not seeing goku, launch, bulma, tien, roshi in the DQ 3 box art
>not seeing gohan, trunks & videl in DQ8
>not seeing android 17 in DQ11
fuck off toriyama you're drunk.

>>8504969
FF8, it showed that hubris had made them clueless and willing to go full steam ahead with truly retarded game design that no one really finds enjoyable to play.

Sqeenix is the poster-boy of out of touch tone-deaf corporate and hierarchical Japan.

>>8504972
This

There was a pretty in-depth discussion surrounding Square's downfall in some thread over on /v a while back that went under the radar, but it was pretty interesting.
Apparently, the theory goes is that Nintendo had huge beef with Square after they bailed on them during the 90s after working with them for so long, that they saw them as the next Sega to deal with, one as a dangerous competitor.
When Sakaguchi went to Hollywood to work on the film, there was a lot of problems even before the film got released like rewrites of the script, change in settings, render farm technical problems from contracting noobs out in LA and pressue to cave-in and so on.

Theory goes is that someone didn't like that Square was on their way to beating the 3D Animation game before their competitors could understand the technology so they made sure to damage the company as much as they could, and the only way to do that was by looking at the potential competitors Square had at the time.

(Also btw; this idea that Square wanted to distance themselves away from games is a myth, since they were even planning on making more films that weren't just FF in name alone and were hoping to go even further with the scale of their games as well. Chrono Trigger was supposed to make a huge comeback but a shit tonne of internal staff problems made it impossible to happen.)

The decline of Squaresoft was caused by The Spirits Within.
The decline of Square Enix started with the end of the PS2 age.

>>8507516
h-hot ...

>>8504985
I would at least respect Spirits Within if it was dumb fun like Advent Children, but it's just boring. And it has basically nothing to do with Final Fantasy except having something resembling the lifestream and a guy named "Sid".

>>8510159
I think with Mistwalker forming and making a few great games after leaving square-enix, it's clear where the main talent was

Why are you fags saying Enix is the fault here when it's square that's the shittier company

>>8510270
Lost Odyssey was a better Final Fantasy than several Final Fantasies.

>>8509673
There's nothing really unique about FFVIII. Square just stole from 90s anime cliches for it instead of D&D or Hollywood films like they had been.

>>8504985
>THE VOICES ARE REAL, THE ACTORS ARE NOT
or whatever the tagline was.

>>8504969
Post PS2. Though there are still good games.

>>8505667
>>8506243
>>8506073
It wasn't even just Square that had the idea. Go look up D and D2 for a similar idea.

Literally right after FF7 came out. PE, their first post-FFVII sucked balls.

>>8508265
>people born in the prime to play gaming like good games
Shocking.

>>8508156
The first 3 and Act Raiser weren't popular games and we didn't even get Dragon Quest 5 or 6. Not shocking someone wouldn't know what they were.

>>8509874
Sounds like stupid schizo bullshit.
>n-nintendo is totally to blame for all of my issues with a company EVER!!!!
Probably a dreamcast baby still upset that their fave system died

>>8504972
Came here to post this.

>>8507530
You're wrong. FFXII is total dogshit, soulless and awful. Sure, FF is worse now but it was as significant step down from 10 and 11 (first expansion included, which was partially developed pre-Enix)

After Portopia

>>8511693
Kids have no taste, when you grow up you should learn to detach and consider from a critical point of view. Most don't, but early 90s millenials seem particularly bad about the for some reason I don't yet understand.

>>8507472
Western-developed Square-Enix games aren't really Square-Enix games. They're Eidos games, same publisher behind Tomb Raider, Deus Ex, Thief, Legacy of Kain, and Hitman that Square-Enix bought in the late-2000's and basically use as their "Western division."

>>8505443
>can't discuss video games without being up black dicks
You should take a break from /v/ for a while.

>>8506397
apparently 9, 10 and 11 were all being developed around the same time
9 was meant to be a homage to the old games and in turn 10 went out of its way to be as different as possible
11 was them experimenting with multiplayer

>>8504969

3D graphics and cheap storage media ruined them. They'd still be great today if a wizard had appeared to magically force them to keep everything 2D and skip all the animation and voiceover bloat. So basically, Sony killed Square. (Or rather, Moore's Law or some relative thereof did.)

>>8505554

Bad writing is fine if it's colorful and concise, though. Final Fantasy had nonsensical, overambitious stories from the very start. But they worked because 3D graphics chips and optical discs weren't around to allow them to be anything but concise. (The "colorful" part was never a problem.) Again, the advance of hardware technology killed Square.

>>8505598
>Ff backstreet boys edition 1/10
Kek. I Want It That Way is the foundation upon which all K-Pop and white suits in anime were built upon

Maybe this makes me a naughty betch but I love almost all of the Final Fantasy games still. I think XIII and XIII-2 are vastly underrated and I like XV too.
Also pic related is one of my favorite games ever. So I still like Square

>>8511702
go back to /v, shill

>>8512071
>11 was them experimenting with multiplayer
11 wasn't an experiment. 11 was a blatant "holy shit look at how much money Sony is raking in from (no-name franchise) Everquest subscriptions, we need to get in on that ASAP"

>>8504969
I unironically have never stopped liking Square and still get excited when they announce a new ip.

Of course they have nothing on golden era Square but I still like them, the most too.

>>8507253
>Capcom and Konami are shells of their former selves
Capcom has never been more successful than now.
>SquareEnix is full-teenage girl now
This is nonsense. Their problems are bad business decisions and short-sighted greed.
>Tecmo
The nioh series did extremely well. Koei is one of the most requested developers out there. They made three houses, persona 5 strikes, hyrule warriors etc.
>Namco
Tekken is huge, Tales of Arise was a success, Ace Combat 7 was a success and they want to continue the series, the Dragon Ball games are gigantic successes.
>SNK
Is having a renaissance
>Hudson
Got bought up years ago by Konami
>Sega
The last time Sega was doing as well as now was 2005.

/vr/ is the ultimate board of retards talkinga bout things they know nothing about.

>>8507253
Capcom are literally the only ones that are still making games with their roots in mind

>>8505494
ff8 is a babby tier easy game, you literally get access to water within 5 minutes of starting a new game and not only that but it only takes like 2-3 battles to get hundreds of them and it's just as powerful as mid/late magic like firaga/thundaga etc

>>8504969
Final Fantasy 8

>>8506073
good take but too wholesome for 4chan

>>8512691
It's still amazing to me that XI was good despite being a blatant ripoff and square not really understanding any of the things that made everquest good.

It shows how talented a company they were.

>>8504972
>>8504985
fpbpspbp

>>8509620
>proving my point
get out normalfag

>>8507530

>DQ VIII

Developed by Level5

>>8504969
That would be the fifth generation of gaming.
At least Dragon Quest is still pretty good but that's only because it hasn't ever done any massive changes to the formula or setting.

>>8515509
and DQ1-5 was chunsoft
and DQ6-7 was heartbeat
only DQX and DQXI were develpoed by square internally, and really, only DQX was, because DQXI 3DS was by toylogic and DQXI ps4 had heavy outside assistance.

After KH2

>>8515729
So I looked at the credits of DQXI and basically, the cutscenes, 3D models and art direction was by people who worked on square for years, but everything else, like the level design, the writing, the programming, the battle system had no square enix involvement.

>>8514672
I think that video game companies in the late 80s to early 2000s spoiled us, i mean how many classic games and franchises where realeased in that period, compared to the last 15 years where most games where mediocre at best you can see why so many people consider classic companies to be a shadow of their former self

Much of it is because games cost a billion dollars and several years to make these days. It means the suits and bean counters took over and the development teams, now several hundred people, aren't equipped to experiment. Back in the 80s and 90s you had teams of 5-10 people and the products, not costing a small fortune to develop, meant the teams had a lot less oversight and micromanagement. Mortal Kombat's fatalities and GTA's entire premise came about essentially by accident. Those kinds of things just don't happen anymore. Plus the computer tech of the day evolved at such a rapid pace everyone in the industry was constantly trying to one up each other. The relative stagnation today means game design also stagnated.

>>8515509
Level 5 was specifically chosen to work on DQ8 by Square-Enix

>>8516836
>Hino's competitive spirit was fired up with the context of the selection process being framed as a contest, and Level-5 completed its prototype in December of 2001. When it was presented to Horii for his evaluation, he was shocked by both the quality of the demo and the strong technical understanding of the PlayStation 2 hardware the company demonstrated. Level-5 was selected as the developer of Dragon Quest VIII and Hino was appointed as the director, which caused much surprise among Japanese fans of the time as none of the company's staff had any prior involvement with the series. Regardless Hino and his staff proved themselves to be more than capable developers, with VIII being the only time that a title experienced no delays from its announcement to release.

>>8505598
>Ff 1-3 shit
What filtered you from those games?

>>8516947
FF3 filters everyone at the last dungeon.

>>8516947
ff1 is good
ff2 is you know
ff3 is genuinely shit lmao. "jobs as key items" is such an awful idea.

>>8504969
Unironically when all the normals hopped on he bandwagon after FFVII. Basically anyone who "got into it with FFVII lol" can suck a dick.

After that Squaresoft started to decline into dumbness, and then when they merged with Enix, Enix being the predominant half, further cucked Square IPs into the dirt.

>>8516956
>Enix being the predominant half, further cucked Square IPs into the dirt.
in what way did Enix hinder final fantasy development when the first "enix" IP that was even developed by square enix was DQX in 2012? enix didn't take up any of squaresoft's resoruces for anything.

>ynr "final fantasy: unlimited" getting cut from 52 to 25 eps