/vr/ - Retro Games

none of them

Emulator + 120Hz LED backlit LCD + black frame insertion mod.

I've heard that a wall sized screen is best if you are playing pacman

ones that let you play the game at its original resolution or at whole number scales

>>837658

>>837693
>>837679
We get it

>>837658
Some LCDs actually look pretty nice although you'll still not be able to use games like Punch Out that rely on CRT tricks

no

test

>>837706
Modern LCDs look better than CRTs for static images. It's a pity they turn to shit as soon as the image moves (at least for console games, 120fps on 120Hz is just about tolerable).

>>837721
Not necessarily true; again it depends on the particular display

>>837706
>although you'll still not be able to use games like Punch Out that rely on CRT tricks
What exactly does the game do?

>>837725
The only LCDs that are capable of displaying 60fps input with good motion quality are extremely expensive professional ones with black frame insertion. These all unavoidably have excessively high latency.

>>837728
I've never played PO, but from what I understand the framerate gets thrown out of sync on LCDs

>>837728
nothing, it's an old myth that started when LCDs first came out and was actually true then, they weren't as responsive as modern ones and this >>837731 would happen, I wish people would stop ignorantly spreading this shit.

>>837732
Blah blah blah muh black frames

My Sony TV looks perfectly fine and the only thing it can't do are those games I mentioned which utilize CRT tricks

>>837732
actually, my LCD TV insists on 60hz when in computer monitor mode and it was a cheep as fuck Philips

op that filter algorithm looks like shit

>>837736
I'm still skeptical if PO can work on my HDTV. The reason I say that is because when you play SMB, Mario doesn't flicker when he gets hit. That's a red light that the TV probably still has too much lag for the game to work.

>>837738
Confirmed for never doing a side by side comparison with a CRT for a 60fps 2D fast scrolling game. Sonic the Hedgehog or Uniracers will make it so obvious even the most hardcore LCDfag can't ignore it.

>>837742
I couldn't even tell he was using a filter, so you are wrong

>>837738
Incidentally, OP pic is more-or-less how NES games appear on the TV. That said, I would still of course have a CRT around for those problematic games.

>>837746
I don't have a Genesis, but I could try out Kirby's Adventure since it has fast scrolling in some sections (eg. the Wheel powerup)

>>837742
Integer ratio nearest neighbor is the sharpest possible scaling, but the aspect ratio is incorrect. Here's the same image with nearest neighbor followed by bilinear (in horizontal axis only).

The blur can be reduced to barely perceptible levels by increasing the output resolution.

>>837756
And by "CRT" I obviously mean native resolution, not some shitty ED upscaling/frame interpolating garbage.

>>837743
as a test I just tried this on my LCD TV myself with FCEUX as the emulator, mario flickers when hit.

>>837764
>not some shitty ED upscaling/frame interpolating garbage
So in other words, you're relying on information about HDTVs from 2006

>>837768
This wasn't on an emulator, but a real NES with a 42" Bravia

>>837761
it looks virtually the same as non-filtered, why even use a filter at this point?

>>837765
Upscaling won't harm the motion quality, but it will harm latency. Anything that changes input:output frame mapping from 1:1 will harm motion quality.

>>837773
I don't think it would matter that much, if it produces flicker through an emulator I assume it would on a real NES as well

>>837765
>>837780
I do so wish you could actually set 1x1 640x480 on HDTVs

>>837779
Because Mario isn't supposed to be as skinny as in >>837742

>>837782
...but the emulator is probably not doing any upscaling. Also it's on a PC anyway so there's no NTSC -> digital signal conversion going on.

>>837790
maybe you should just use an emulator then

>>837784
as I said, I don't notice that much of a difference, do you take out a ruler and measure mario to make sure he isn't "too skinny" or something?

>>837783
Get a VGA monitor and a good line doubler (which can theoretically introduce only a single line's worth of latency, which is completely imperceptible). I have no idea if good line doublers actually exist.

This is probably the ideal solution for displaying console games. All the benefits of CRT motion quality, no ugly scanlines.

>>837796
That would imply there are consoles other than the DC which output VGA

When I get older losing my hair
Many years from now
Will you still be sending me a valentine
Birthday greetings, bottle of wine?
If I'd been out till quarter to three
Would you lock the door?
Will you still need me, will you still feed me
When I'm sixty-four?

You'll be older too
And if you say the word
I could stay with you

I could be handy, mending a fuse
When your lights have gone
You can knit a sweater by the fireside
Sunday mornings go for a ride
Doing the garden, digging the weeds
Who could ask for more?
Will you still need me, will you still feed me
When I'm sixty-four?

Every summer we can rent a cottage in the Isle of Wight
If it's not too dear
We shall scrimp and save
Grandchildren on your knee
Vera, Chuck and Dave

Send me a postcard, drop me a line
Stating point of view
Indicate precisely what you mean to say
Yours sincerely, wasting away
Give me your answer, fill in a form
Mine for ever more
Will you still need me, will you still feed me
When I'm sixty-four?
Ho!

>>837796
most TVs did not have ugly scanlines, this is just something "muh athenticity" kiddies that don't remember CRT TVs very clearly cling to and think they are getting "the true retro experience" when they use shitty scanline filters

>>837795
Here's a more obvious example.

Chrono Trigger, displayed with integer ratio scaling. Moon is wrong shape.

>>837809
Scanlines aren't that visible on most ordinary consumer TVs

>>837808
is this supposed to imply that everyone in this thread is "old" or something?

>>837816
that's exactly what I was saying in different words...

>>837828
>That's what the line doubler is for

Aside from the SNES, most consoles don't output RGB on stock models anyway

>>837798
That's what the line doubler is for.

>>837809
Most TVs did have clear visible scanlines. This is a side effect of the hack used to get 240p on a 480i display.

>>837819
And with fixed aspect ratio, the moon is the correct shape.

>>837825
The PVM autists are just that. Autists.

>>837828
>Most TVs did have clear visible scanlines
Not really. Like for example I have a 13" color portable from the 70s and unless you're like one inch from the screen, you can't see any lines.

>>837832
And good luck even finding a SNES RGB cable. Or a box to separate its composite sync.

>>837832
Then mod it for RGB, or add a high quality comb filter.

>>837837
not same guy, but the only way to do that on a NES is swap the PPU with a Playchoice 10 chip but then the color palette looks awful

and that doesn't even cover Atari era consoles which are RF only

>>837829
XD autism epic post

>>837841
>not same guy, but the only way to do that on a NES is swap the PPU with a Playchoice 10 chip but then the color palette looks awful
Ok fair enough, but I've never seen what the PC10 colors look like so can't comment.
>and that doesn't even cover Atari era consoles which are RF only
That's ok because those consoles suck and nobody plays them anyway

>>837841
PC10 palette looks superior to NES palette IMO.

And why would you want to play Atari era console games?

>>837829
to be honest I don't really care if some one is an "autist", it's that they are being "autists" over a false ideal, a vision of something from the past that was never true.

>>837847
Really. When you were like 8 years old, do you think you cared if your SNES was plugged into a PVM or some shitty TV/VHS combo set? Hell no, you didn't care as long as you could play DKC.

>>837849
>PC10 palette looks superior to NES palette
Fuck no, it doesn't

>And why would you want to play Atari era console games?
Hurr I'm not interested in X thing so therefore no one else is either

>>837852
what? but.... never mind... I'm not sure... yeah never mind... you guys will just read things how ever you want, won't you

>>837663
opinions
>>837829
opinions
>>837796
opinions
>>837779
opinions
>>837738
opinions
>>837736
opinions

>durrhurr my opinion is superior to your opinion
>hurrdurr my opinion is the only correct one

Some people like LCDs and some people like CRTs, stop fucking acting like one is wrong and one is right when it's entirely up to preference.

>>837849
>And why would you want to play Atari era console games?

I already covered that in >>837848, autist

>>837852
>b-but my nostalgia also i don't understand what a studio monitor is or that it would be used by the original devs while they were making the games

>>837841
As I understand, the 2600 needs RF to display its colors properly

>>837858
It does. NES graphics are unavoidably cartoonish because of the hardware limitations so they look good with higher saturation.

>>837862
Regardless of whatever they developed the game on, they meant it to be played on ordinary shitty consumer TVs

Besides, if you wanted to be accurate, you'd need to know the _exact_ model of monitor that Sega used when programming Sanic. Otherwise you're not authentic.

>>837852
I was playing PC games at the time of the SNES, but I imported games for my PS1, which I displayed on an Amiga computer monitor using a sync separator I built (thanks TI for sending the free sample LM1881).

>>837874
>if you don't buy the exact tv Miyamoto used to make SMB 1 on you're not doing it right!! b-baka!!

Just keep talking. Dem fallacies.

>>837865
wow, what a shitty troll post
it's like you literally just clicked a bunch of posts blindly since half of those aren't even related to each other, and one of them isn't even an opinion

A quick search of Ebay reveals many SNES SCART cables but none of the RGB cable that Nintendo used with their in-house monitors.

As I understand, Commodore 17xx monitors were used by game devs quite often, sometimes as late as the PS2 era.

>>837881
>>837865
oh, and to add to that, one is responding to filter guy and doesn't even have to do with LCD TVs

Why not a plasma TV? They don't lag as much.

>>837904
Look Mom, I'm reading info about plasma TVs from 2005!

>>837902
Burn baby, burn

>>837835
heh heh heh here I go

>>837902
Still sample-and-hold, might as well use a fast LCD.

>>837838
>And good luck even finding a SNES RGB cable.

I was gonna link you to retro_console_accessories or retrogamingcables, but it looks like the former's ebay store is down and SNES cables are out of stock on her personal store, and the latter only sells them for PAL consoles. I guess I got mine in the nick of time when I bought it earlier this year.

>>837913
Blah blah blah muh sampal and hawld

Seriously, these threads are the cancer killing /vr/

>>837868
>unavoidably cartoonish
lol, as apposed to what? High realism? That wasn't even in developers minds in that era
go back to /v/

>>837923
Exactly, so PC10 palette is fine.

>>837928
but with you attitude that not being realistic is bad belongs in /v/, not here
unless it was a case of horrible wording making it seem like you were implying something you were not

>>837939
>unavoidably cartoonish

>>837935
What horrible wording? I never said anything about it being good or bad.

And I play NES games myself, so obviously I don't care about the unrealistic graphics.

/vr/ CRT threads are as bad as /g/ mechanical keyboard or /o/ pushrod threads

Just use what you like.

>>837943
How is that bad? You're projecting your own biases onto my post.

>>837874
No one sensible gives a shit about what what the developers of a game worked on or what they "intended" for people to use, only what gives you the best possible visual experience.

>ctrl+f scaler
>nothing found

total idiots all of you

every modern LCD handles retro games well with a scaler

>>837958
If all you're interested in is static screenshots, or if all you play is low framerate 5th gen. crap, then yes.

This thread needs some knowledge.

First, this is the pinouts of a Peritel 7800 with RGB and composite.

>>837841
>>837848

>>837973
See >>837765

>>837949
sorry, I have a tendency to read all superlatives that are posted on this site as negatives since on most boards that's how this site works

This thread needs some knowledge.

First, this is the pinouts of a Peritel 7800 with RGB and composite.

>>837841
>>837848
.

>>837973
5th gen games look worse on HDTVs than 2D

>>838001
oh look, it's another eurofag that thinks everyone else are eurofags

>>837958
>durr muh $600 scaler

>>837996
See http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-gb/library/windows/hardware/gg463407.aspx

60fps cannot possibly look good without flicker. This is an unchangeable fact of human biology. This is no technological workaround.

>>838008
My HDTVs look fine for most stuff (games, movies, TV, etc) I don't notice any loss in framerate

>>838019
The problem is unrelated to framerate loss.

Also movies all have shitty motion quality, even The Hobbit's "high frame rate" isn't really high.

>>838008
Protip: Real life doesn't have flicker and it doesn't look blurry, does it?

>>838008
>60fps cannot possibly look good without flicker

>>838001
Second, this is a Playchoice running Super Mario Brothers. There's nothing wrong with the palette, it looks just like Vs. Super Mario Brothers. Nintendo tweaked it to look better on RGB displays. I'm so sorry that it makes Soda Popinski look purple but there are plenty of erroneous colors in the NES palette too.

>>838006
I'm a USAfag and unlike you, I don't insist on being ignorant. If you want to play Atari games in composite or RGB, that's the easiest way to do it.

>>838032
Real life doesn't have a framerate either.

>>838051
Try the non-interpolating non-upscaling CRT vs LCD side by side test with Sonic or Uniracers. Even my non-gaming family can easily tell the difference.

>>838050
oh, hi, it's "I have a playchoice 10 so I am better than you" troll again
please leave and go fap over your playchoice t0 arcade cabinet please

>>838063
but this has nothing to do with flicker and more to do with the fact that there is no delay issues, seeing the flicker is simply a side effect of this

>>838068
PC10 autists, PVM autists, sameshit

>>838076
Wrong. Without flicker the frame content (which is supposed to be a snapshot of a single point in time) is smeared out over the whole frame duration time. This is perceived as blur. Read http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-gb/library/windows/hardware/gg463407.aspx

The only other solution is to increase the framerate enough that the error becomes imperceptible. It's small enough to be just about tolerable at 120fps, but even that's not enough.

>>838095
See >>838032

>>838050
Third, on the subject of CRTs and scanlines. All non-dotpitch CRTs have scanlines, regardless of how visible they are. When playing vr games you would have to look pretty hard to find a TV shitty enough for the scanlines to be completely bled away but even then the scanlines serve as optical anti-aliasing. When viewed from the proper distance, the human eye naturally blends the jagged edges of the pixels. Consider the difference between this thumbnail (similar to normal viewing distance), full screen size (similar to close examination) and full-size, revealing the actual phosphorescence at work.

Even if you can't grasp this, and you've never seen the motion artifacts LCDs suffer at high speeds, and you don't play twitch games like Punch Out that make the delay impossible to ignore you still must be able to realize that when you play retro games on emulators with no filters whatsoever you are getting colors twice as bright as they were designed to be.

>>838068
The Playchoice isn't mine, I just provided the screen shot to illustrate the reason a Playchoice's PPU has a different palette from the NES and why it certainly looks very different from the emulated Playchoice palette in real life applications.

>>838084
>anyone who is more into my hobby than I am is an autist

>>838118
Real life has an effective framerate of about 1.85 * 10^43Hz. I estimate about 200fps is sufficient to make flicker unnecessary. Real life exceeds this by such a huge margin the numbers don't even fit in human imagination.

>>838158
I'm 10x the retro gamer you are, honey

Why have display threads become full of shitflinging?

>>838147
Look Mom, I'm using filters. Aren't I so special?

>>838165
You sure don't act like it.

>>838169
Ok autist, in what way am I less of a retro gamer than you? Have you ever played King's Quest on a real CGA card with the composite output? Yeah I didn't think so.

>>838147
In pixel art there is no such thing as aliasing. Pixel art does not sample anything, the sharp edges are in intended part of the image. Pixel art looks fine without scanlines, eg. >>837761

>>838171
It's not a filter.

>>838172
>he thinks pixel art was supposed to be blocky

Pixels are supposed to be dots, not squares.

>>838181
I'm looking at my PC monitor right now and they look square to me

>>838181
If they're supposed to be dots then it's not pixel art, it's sampled normal art.

>>838173
Quote: "you still must be able to realize that when you play retro games on emulators with no filters whatsoever you are getting colors twice as bright as they were designed to be"

>>838172
When Super Mario Brothers was created there was no such thing as "pixel art". It wasn't a media that douche bags chose to work in, it was a limitation of the hardware. Nobody was willingly creating sprites at lower than maximum resolution. They were trying to make them look as good as they possibly could with what they had to work with but no matter what kind of subjective, artistic argument you may use, these emulated screens are twice as bright and twice as saturated as they're supposed to be. This is not how they are supposed to look.

>>838147
>and you don't play twitch games like Punch Out that make the delay impossible to ignore you

We already covered this multiple times in the thread. PO relies on CRT tricks to work and has problems with LCDs. There is no need to keep bringing it up.

>>838184
I use software black frame insertion so it cancels out.

>>838189
They're not squares if they're not upscaled.

>>838198
And they made use of the pixel boundaries to increase the effective resolution, which means the pixel boundaries are not "aliasing" and anti-aliasing is counterproductive.

>>838203
See >>837738

>>838206
There's no standard for number of subpixels per pixel. Nearest neighbor upscaling literally makes the pixels bigger.

>>838215
Not my problem if you're blind or retarded or more likely just in denial about something even non-gamers can easily side in a side by side test.

>>838175
That's real neato (not even joking I really wish I knew about that little trick back in the day) but if you're one of those guys then don't you think it's pretty hypocritical of you to call console enthusiasts who endeavor to get similar ideal quality autists?

>>838215
Shut the fuck up.

Nobody cares that you have low standards and can't tell the difference. I bet you think frame skipping in emulators when it isn't running full speed is fine too.

>>838219
Ok and what is this "ideal quality" strawman you keep bringing up

>>838216
And that makes everything ugly.

It's why filters exist, to hide ugly blockiness from upscaling

>>838225
I do know your mom has very low standards which is why your nigger father abandoned you when you were two years old

>talking about quality graphics on retro games with like a couple of colors and fuzzy analog video signals

>>838239
Really. It didn't bother anyone playing the games back in the day to use a shit portable set in their bedroom, did it?

>>838232
>get backed into a corner
>show your true colors as a /b/yard

It was to be expected

>>838201
No it doesn't. There are games that do rely on CRT tricks, (i.e. transparency on the Genesis) but Punch Out isn't one of these games. Someone was lurking in one of our CRT threads and got the wrong impression then posted it earlier in this thread. The reason you can't beat Punch Out on an LCD is because it demands reactions that outstrip the response time of the display (when it upconverts from composite). Punch Out is certainly not the only twitch game that this is the case with but it is a very demanding game that most collectors probably own and can experience for themselves.

An RGB modded NES or Playchoice using a 120khz LCD could probably negate this lag but that also would be autistic right?

So basically if you ever want to beat Punch Out (or Spy Hunter or Solar Jetman or dozens of others) you HAVE to be one kind of autist or another, right?

>>838239
The epitome of autism

>>838229
There is nothing imaginary about the word "ideal"

>>838253
That was the entire fucking point. PO utilizes CRT tricks that cause the framerate to fall behind the game's processing on HDTVs.

>An RGB modded NES or Playchoice using a 120khz LCD could probably negate this lag but that also would be autistic right?

At this point, I doubt the word "autism" even means anything anymore

>>838263
You still didn't provide a definition for this "ideal quality" bullshit you keep bringing up.

>>838264
LCDs having imput lag on upscaled games isn't a "CRT trick".

Color bleed and transparency on Genesis, where the game relies on the colors bleeding together to create the impression of a solid color is a CRT trick.

>>838258
Pot, kettle, black

>>838270

That doesn't apply since I'm not acting like I'm from /b/

>>838280
Right as you keep yelling autism in every other post

>>838273
>LCDs having imput lag on upscaled games isn't a "CRT trick"

Nitpick, nitpick, nitpick. If that's not what you mean, then...heck, light gun games. That's certainly a CRT trick.

>>838273
>Color bleed and transparency on Genesis, where the game relies on the colors bleeding together to create the impression of a solid color is a CRT trick

If you mean NTSC bleed, that's an artifact of the video signal, not the display type

>>838295
>I'm afraid you're just projecting at this point

See >>838270

>>838286
I haven't said anything about "autism"

I'm afraid you're just projecting at this point

Still waiting for this nigger to explain what he considers ideal quality

>>838268
An ideal is subjective, but to most people - in the context of a display - it means the best possible speed, accuracy, and motion.

>>838306
Ok that's just fine. Got it. Just use any old CRT and all your games up to and including Punch Out will work perfectly.

If it were just this, I'm fine. We could agree on that. Where we run into trouble are those autists who tell you that if you're playing your games on anything less than select Sony displays, you failed at life and may as well an hero.

>>838297
Sorry, but if you think sample and hold motion blur is "fine", then you clearly have no standards. Then you start shitposting relentlessly when you get called out on it. I think it's within my right to call the kettle black for being black.

>>838325
It wasn't me who keeps relentlessly shitposting his warped strawmen about sample and hold blur.

>>838335
not him, but lemme explain a little bit about S&H blur. basically the flicker creates a "pause" for your brain to finish processing the last frame.

>>838323
I agree. Last night, I mentioned about my Beaumark TV and got run out of the thread on a rail. Never mind that all retro games will work absolutely fine on it with no scaling/lag/blur/whatever crap. It wasn't acceptable to the hipsters.

>>838335
I'm so sorry you can't face the facts and realize your little "Sony TV" is flawed when it comes motion quality if it isn't 120hz with black frame insertion to simulate a CRT refresh flicker.

>>838343
Did that TV have only composite or something?

>>838349
Whoawhoawhoa. He spends the entire thread denouncing anyone who doesn't play their retro games on select Trinitrons and now he's saying Sony TVs suck? Make up your mind.

>>838351
Nobody is talking about Trinitrons you fucking retard

>>838350
It did, but I guess that's fine for pre-SNES stuff

>>838359
And I quote:

"I'm so sorry you can't face the facts and realize your little "Sony TV" is flawed when it comes to motion quality

>>838343
And you. You need to face facts that your off-brand 80s TV that you found on a sidewalk curb is shit.

>>838351
We're talking about LCDs in this thread, not CRTs.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove

>>838361
See, there's what I mean. Just having a CRT isn't good enough. It has to be the right brand of CRT or the hipsters won't speak to you.

Plebs.

>>838364
I wasn't the guy who posted that

>>838323
Nobody ever says that, Dude. People ask what the best displays for retro games are and we tell them. The Sony studio monitors really are the best. That's just an answer to a question. The recommended models do YUV, RGB, SVideo, and Composite with tons of adjustments and high quality. They have aperture grill technology which does mean sharp scanlines though and some people don't like that which is fine. They also don't have the best comb filters for composite so there are better options out there for NES.

We have other highly preferred displays, Samsungs, Toshibas, Thomson RCAs, and a guy just impressed me with a Magnavox on Genesis in the current CRT thread. I personally have a Panasonic project I'm working on that I'll post detailed pics of later.

None of us that actually use a lot of CRTs are saying that there's a one and only you MUST have but we do give our information about what's top tier, what's 95% as good (and $10 thrift store available) and what you might as well avoid.

Yes you can beat Punch Out on your old wood console TV but there's no reason to when you could have a MUCH better experience of it with a TV that can be had for a few dollars.

>>838364

We're talking about LCDs in this thread you ignorant piece of shit.

>>837796
>I have no idea if good line doublers actually exist.

http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/Main_Page

http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/XRGB-mini_FRAMEMEISTER

http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/framemeister.html

>>837658
OP if you want your retro games to look amazing on an LCD display, this is as good as it's gonna get.

Alot of people will probably scoff at the price tag, but honestly, if you'll go out of your way to buy a bunch of somewhat pricey retro systems, "rare" OOP RPGs from Square, Enix, and Working Designs, you can afford an XRGB.

>>838373
See >>838239

>>838379
FUCK OFF, MARKETER

>>838373
>The Sony studio monitors really are the best

I'm real sure if you went to a kid's house in 1991, that his Genesis was hooked up to one of those.

>>838380
?

>>838367
>>838343
We only tell you that TV is C- grade because we want you to have the best possible experience. You asked us what we thought of it and the truth is you could do way better.

I had a 27" RCA set. Great TV. Had S-video and everything.

Wasn't good enough for the hipsters because hurr shadow mask

>>838373
>They also don't have the best comb filters for composite so there are better options out there for NES

Actually comb filters are irrelevant since they're designed for standard broadcast NTSC. They don't work on the NES's goofy video signal.

>>838394
The point being that we're talking 8-bit graphics produced with a fuzzy analog NTSC signal. There is a limit to how much quality you can get out of that.

>>838394
>We only tell you that TV is C- grade because we want you to have the best possible experience

Do I also have to wear thick glasses and flannel shirts to have the best experience, perchance?

>>838389
I don't understand your point. Are you saying that typical and best are synonymous? Are you the same person who demanded I define the word "ideal"?

Somebody's getting a dictionary for Christmas!

>>838398
In short, it doesn't matter what you use a NES with because the filters only work with 180 degree phase shift.

OP, you only started this thread to piss people off.

Go away.

>>838389
And I'm real sure my local thrift stores have 20 PVMs in them and not 20 TV/VHS combos.

>>838392
Who told you that? I like that TV. That's not the set that smudgy Alucard pic is from is it?

>>838414
That was the guy's Beaumark with the CV3 screenshot

>>838384

>marketing

Okay, I'll bite. How exactly is trying to provide links to the OP about a device that can help his situation marketing?

>>838389
You appear to be confusing "retro authenticity" with getting the best out of your video games.
One doesn't buy a PVM to replicate being a middle-class suburbs kid with an old Orion, but to make his games look the best they can. There's no reason to buy inferior products for the sake of some contrived authenticity.

>>838416
youmustbenewhere.jpg

Every CRT thread (or most of them) has a marketer who denounces CRTs as obsolete radiation cannons before dropping a recommendation for an XRGB scaler. He may even be the guy starting these threads.

>>838418
See >>838405

Aside from which, Genesis is composite only anyway so not very useful on PVMs

>>838409
That may be, but not everyone is able to have access to a CRT, or may not even want one. Sad but true.

>>838415
I go to thrift stores all the time. Yesterday I saw a 26" WEGA with YUV for 9.99 and a 14" Samsung with YUV for 6.99

>>838426
enjoy your unplayably laggy Punch Out, faggot

>>838424
Ok that's very nice but it's not good enough for the hipsters who only allow select Trinitrons/PVMs

>>838418
IOW, sacrificing authenticity for hipster-ness

>>838417
Well it definitely sucked, and not just because of shadow mask. Arcade rasters use shadow mask and they're pretty sweet.

>>838440
Then you haven't been paying attention to these threads

>>838421

Really? I've almost never seen anyone bring up XRGB units in /vr/. Most people here never even heard of them.

>>838438
...but arcade games are using RGB monitors, not composite

>>838432
Quit calling people hipsters for using a certain type of TV. Just because someone wants the best quality out of their games doesn't mean they're a hipster.

The word "hipster" should be a bannable offense on this board

>>838432
You seem to not feel good enough because your television isn't a high-tier trinitron or PVM, which is stupid
If you're displaying the consoles correctly, and at least using a CRT, that's good for you!
Obviously you're sacrificing picture quality, but if you're happy, then that's that- there's no need to attack people who do own high-end monitors and label them as "hipsters".

>>838432
1) I'm one of the crt people and we don't do that
2) A WEGA is a Trinitron

>>838448
Like I said, I had an RCA which was a very good TV but it died so I had to get rid of it. But not good enough for the autistic hipsters here.

>>838453
>I'm one of the crt people and we don't do that
You might want to tell that to the autist who's been raging through this entire thread how anyone who has less than a PVM should go back to /v/

>>838439
Wanting your video games to look the best is in no way "hipster". I can't fathom why you're building this sense of superiority over not owning a high-end display.
If you're happy with what you have, that's utterly fabulous, but getting angry over people recommending displays is absolutely ridiculous.

>ctrl+f
>autism
>21 replies
>ctrl+f
>hipster
>10 replies

why.jpg

>>838436

Calm down dude, I would never advocate the "LCDs r da footur" shit for even one second. Some people just don't see the appeal of owning a CRT, as dumb as it sounds.

>>838470
>I can't fathom why you're building this sense of superiority over not owning a high-end display
Actually I'm only building a sense of superiority over the people who think they're superior just for using a certain display type

This board is shit now

Using a Wega isn't hipster, but using pro studio displays is since nobody ever played those games on them back in the day and they wouldn't have even been sold to consumers.

>>838425
http://www.retrorgb.com/genesis.html

>>838480
After spending $$$ on a box to connect that to VGA

>>838479
WE ARE SUPERIOR, YOU STUPID AUTIST

>>838497
See >>838323

>>838443
Guess not.

>>838439
How exactly is wanting to play vidya on a CRT monitor/TV "being a hipster"? Are you the same guy spouting the "hipster" shit in every CRT thread?

>>838459
I'm sorry (and surprised) your RCA died but I have to assume that, when it died, you came to one of our CRT threads asking for advice on a replacement and maybe when we told you to try to get something from 2000-2005 with YUV inputs and that, unfortunately Thomson stopped making RCAs by then so you can't get one with YUV that maybe you took it as an insult to your dead friend. If you did, I'm sorry. I love my old RCA that sits on top my fridge and faithfully displays my analog RF broadcasts. Deepest blacks ever, sets a standard that makes LCDs and projectors look shitty to me in that department.

>>838464
Where are this person's posts? Because I don't see them.

>>838501
Thomson made CRT sets until 2004. They definitely had models with component inputs.

>>838476

Wouldn't be so bad if everyone just simply ignored the shitposter and silently reported him, but I guess even /vr/ isn't capable of doing that.

>>838505
Of course you don't see them. Because you are that person.

>>838508
>Wouldn't be so bad if everyone just simply ignored the shitposter and silently reported him
Which one? Everyone in this thread is shitposting.

>>838484
Wegas have only been around since 1998.

>>838506
I've never seen one but if I did I'd probably buy it.

I play on a new LED screen but I take my glasses off while I play to give it that vintage blurred look.

>>838521
Ok, but that falls within the 5th gen so still in retro territory

>>838508
it used to

>>838529
There was a 32" RCA at my local thrift store this weekend. And I'm planning to go back and get it.

And no I won't tell you my location so you can beat me to it.

>>838509
If you think I'm saying that only PVMs are acceptable for retro gaming just because I'm saying they're generally the best for retro gaming means you are very badly misinterpreting mt posts, to the point of ignoring 85% of what I'm saying. You must have a horrible persecution/inferiority complex.

>>838487
Don't exactly know what you're talking about, but this means we're in agreement that the Genesis outputs RGB, right?

>>838540
lol well I'm in Columbus, Ohio and I can tell everyone that Wega was at the Salvation Army on Morse and the Samsung was at Goodwill on E. Broad. There's also some guy on Craigslist with three little Sammies for $25. I've been on the lookout for YUV sets under 20" ever since this one guy told me there were none to be found.

why is this still here
if you want to discuss your plebian bullshit go back to reddit

>>838379
Ctrl+F "latency" on all those pages, no matches.

Therefore the default assumption is that it's shit. It's your responsibility to prove otherwise. How many microseconds of latency are added when converting from RGB 240p to RGB 480p by line doubling? Can it even do 240p to 480p line doubling?

I don't give a fuck about any of the other features, as they are all completely useless and inferior to much cheaper solutions.

>>838923
I'll accept oscilloscope traces or a timing diagram from the datasheet of the chip you're using (assuming it's off the shelf).

bump

>>838923

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBwwLV1SDxM

That's one.

There a few forums discussions, namely here-
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33450

Unfortunately it's over 100 pages, so you'll have to look for yourself for now. I'd suggest singing up if you have questions, it appears that thread alone is the most discussed on the net, concerning the XRGB series.

>Therefore the default assumption is that it's shit.

So by that logic those shitty, generic scart-to-HDMI converters on eBay are better solely because they're cheaper.

>It's your responsibility to prove otherwise.

Look, I don't mind helping out but it ain't all on me. There are plenty of good articles and discussions about this thing on various forums and such.

>How many microseconds of latency are added when converting from RGB 240p to RGB 480p by line doubling?

I have no idea, but i hear it's supposed to be ridiculously low. It varies depending on settings and models. I know the older ones are supposed to be near zero since it used VGA for the output. The FrameMeister only offers HDMI-out, which makes sense as newer HDTVs are phasing out VGA left and right.

>Can it even do 240p to 480p line doubling?

That's exactly what it does. It takes pure RGB and perfectly line-doubles.

>>839303
So your argument is basically "trust me". You're marketing scum, the least trustworthy kind of person, so that's not good enough.

>>839441
>wants me to spoonfeed everything to him because he's too lazy to actually read the links provided

>continues to cries marketer

Well fuck you, I tried.

>>837658
Op, just delete the thread, it's gone to shit. Just save your pennies and pick up an XRGB, but take time to research first.

CRTs are obsolete display technology. There are modern solutions like XRGB for playing older games.

>>839603

>CRTs are obsolete display technology.

I Disagree, but good on you on recommending an XRGB.

>There are modern solutions like XRGB for playing older games.

You cant play light gun games with it. Just a heads up.

this thread could have been good
instead, it sucks

>>839598
>>839603
Line doublers are not a solution for replacing CRTs, they're a solution for allowing consoles to be used with superior VGA CRTs. They do nothing to fix sample-and-hold blur.

>>839621
You can play Zapper games, not scanning guns

>>839689
How many more times you gonna keep ranting about your imaginary sample and hold blur, kiddo

Protip: Flicker does not improve motion quality. I powered up an old XP box with a CRT monitor just to post this. It's running at 75Hz where flicker becomes invisible. Yet I don't see any blur.

>>839715
>You can play Zapper games

Proof plz

>>839786
I dunno for sure, but if it can reduce lag to a low enough level, it should be possible since Zapper games depend on being able to do super-fast flicker. Other guns can't work because they detect the electron beam instead.

>>839720
You have completely failed to understand sample-and-hold blur.

1. Flicker at 75Hz is in fact visible. Flicker is visible well into the kHz if you move your eyes fast enough.

2. Whether the flicker is visible or not is irrelevant to how it affects motion quality. Even if you literally can't see flicker at 75Hz, it is still there and it will still look better than a native 75Hz LCD.

If you increase the refresh rate enough then the flicker does become irrelevant, but such monitors are not available (except possibly by overclocking that Chinese 4K panel on Blurbusters). You need about 200 to 300Hz.

>>837858
what dies the PC10 palette look like?

>>838253
Couldn't you just play on a CRT display? I mean, I have my NES hooked up to the composite input, but it's still a CRT, so it should be fine for beating Punch-Out or those other games you mentioned.

>>839831
PO will work on any and all CRTs from a 1957 Philco to a 2005 Wega

But. That's not what the autists want. They won't accept you into their little club if you just have any old CRT. Oh no, it must be select approved models. Never mind that the great majority of CRT TVs essentially work the same way. Instead we must have this ADHD obsession with Muh scanlines and Muh PVMs even though millions of people played those games on regular old 80s-90s TVs with no problem whatsoever.

>>837658
>What LCD screens are the best for vintage consoles?

CRT tvs.

>>839903
>still replying to this thread

scanlines are actually useful, since games running at substandard resolutions look like total garbage when blown up on a 50 inch screen.

>>839927
It...looks like shit!

>>839927
Scanlines obscure the details of the pixel art. It would look better with sharp pixels and no scanlines.

>>839927
Arcade games like the original shinobi ran at a high enough res, they don't really need scanlines to look good.
Arcade games made before the 90s seem to have a really shitty, low contrast pastel palette, though, nothing that tinkering around with MAME sliders doesn't fix.

>>839962

No, it doesn't. It just looks like blocky shit. Only pixel purists jack off to everything having huge, perfectly square pixels

>>840078
Lots of games have rectangular pixels.

>>840102
CRT look (good motion quality) is unrelated to pixel sharpness.

>>839962

that's wrong, without scanlines you can completely see the game

ideally there would be scanlines on every other row, and then more scanlines on the remaining rows, so that every picture would be nothing but beautiful scanlines and you wouldn't see any of those ugly pixels that crap up so many old games

>going out and spending hundreds of dollars on an LCD tv for retro games
>CRTs are being given away for practically free

Are you dumb?

>>839831
>>839869
Look, Guys we're just glad that people play retro on CRTs period because then the advantages become apparent and once that happens for dudes they really have no reason other than extreme apathy not to go ahead and spend five or ten dollars upgrading their CRT to something really good. It doesn't need to be a PVM, they're just the best, all things considered but, honestly, punch out hooked up in composite may look better on a Magnavox. I'd like to see that guy that posted the X-Men on Genesis screen to show us NES.

>>840214
Without scanlines you just see double the pixels, shifted up a line. Hence "line doubling"

>>837832
umm... Famicom titler, Mega Drive / Genesis 2, Sega Saturn and PS1 all also come stock with RGB.

>>840406
Titler still needs a mod. French Famicom has cheat RGB stock and French 7800 has RGB stock, too.

>>840415
*French NES

>>839803
You would need to get it down under a single frame(I believe), which is currently impossible.

>>840385
lolwut

>>840423
>What is 240p?

I'd love to use an XRGB with a nice low lag LCD. It'd certainly be a lot more elegant than his hulking PVM i have currently... Unfortunately I'm not in the position to spend about the cost of the PS4 on a scaler. So I'll stick with my PVM. IF you have the money though, pair one with that EVO ASUS and you have a really nice setup

>>840451
I find it hilarious that the lowest lag LCDs are cheap-ish/budget models.

I beat Gradius and Punch-Out just fine with my NES and SNES hooked up to my Samsung flatscreen. Get fucked, armchair pseudoscientists.

>>840484
Bullshit you did.

>>840484
Why did you need an SNES?

Why doesn't a company just make a flatscreen in which all the pixels change at the exact same time in parallel?

>>840498

Because muh Gradius 3

>>840484
Pics or it didn't happen

arino beat Prince of Persia on an LCD, and that game requires very precise controls

Does anyone know what specific brand of LCD he plays his games on?

>>840508
Already been done, and it's a terrible idea because it increases latency. Other than that it looks almost identical to line based updating.

>>840696
It's the quick reaction aka twitch that highlights delay. PoP requires timing, but the human brain can compensate for delay. In fact, if I remember right PoP is made to have some delay. Also the backgrounds don't scroll even though the hero can move pretty fast. He might have noticed some tearing of the sprite but he wouldn't have cared. Only us so called autists care about tearing, apparently and we all know there are no autistic Japanese people...

>>840696
He beat the SNES version, which runs like an N64 game. Control precision is completely impossible at that framerate. Running it on an LCD isn't going to make it much worse.

>>840721
It's rare for a modern LCD to have tearing. Tearing usually happens when people configure emulators wrong.

>>840721
Punch Out doesn't scroll either, does it?

>>840749
No, there shouldn't be significant tearing in Punch Out. It's just good to highlight the delay. Iron Mike throws some random punches and ge only gives you like one frame lead for you to react to. 10ms delay? You're punched out.

>>840787
Depending on the display, aren't some under 10 ms?

>>840792
I'm just throwing out 10ms as a theoretical point. That's why it's a good game to gauge delay with. The longer the delay, the lower on the circuits you'll be able to rise to no matter how much you practice.

>>840738

Turning on V-Sync introduces input lag.

But I'm pretty sure it's POSSIBLE for a game to be written such that V-Sync doesn't introduce input lag. I think what happens, though, is most games have input and video output happen sequentially, instead of being done in separate threads.

>>840817
Protip: Most retro games are V-synced. For example, the NES PPU doesn't let you alter its VRAM or registers except during the retrace.

>>840792
>Depending on the display, aren't some under 10 ms?
Technically, but that's only at the top left corner.
Even the quickest take ~20ms to do the whole screen.

>SNES hooked up to HD monitor with S-Video
>aspect ratio is fine
>either no lag or I'm too pleb to notice it (probably the latter)
>looks fantastic because S-Video
I guess I miss out on stuff like dithering caused by CRT blur but this is still pretty passable given that I don't have a CRT

>>840721

You're forgetting that there are sword-fighting parts of the game that require the same category of reflexes and reaction as Punch-Out. By this I mean: it isn't predictable, the enemies are pretty random and you have to use the right attack or counter-attack depending on what quick frames of animation you see the enemy attempting.

>>840827

That's nice. I'm talking about emulators' implementations of V-Sync, though. The input lag is noticeable, at least in Nestopia.

>>840832
That's why stuff like using PVMs with RGB is a joke

Protip: The graphics were designed around NTSC artifacting and blur. By making the image look as crisp as possible, you lose the original effect the devs were going for.

>>840817
The way I do it is to introduce a delay so that reading the input, emulating the frame, rendering the frame, and swapping the buffer all happen in sequence as fast as possible, and then idle again after the buffer swap for as long as possible. This needs good realtime performance from your OS to work reliably.

I really need to do some objective latency measurements with photodiode + oscilloscope.

>>840832
pics or it didn't happen

>>840843
The graphics in DOS VGA games are the exact same style, and they were obviously not designed around those artifacts. The original devs would have preferred higher quality from consoles too if that was possible.

>>840838
This just made me think.

I don't watch much GameCenter, but didn't Arino have a considerable amount of difficulty with Parappa? Isn't it likely that the LCD could have been what was making it so difficult?

>>840832
Compare side by side with a proper oldschool CRT (no upscaling, no interpolation), with a fast 2D game, eg. Sonic or Uniracers.

Look at the sharpness of the scrolling backgrounds. You'll never be happy with your LCD again.

>>840864
Don't have either game so I can't really compare
Something would happen to the backgrounds?

>>840857
NES actually doesn't even generate RGB colors, but NTSC. Also look at some games like SMB3 and notice how they outlined everything in black to cut down on dot crawl.

>>840869
I have Kirby's Adventure which does some fast scrolling. Will have to test.

>>840857
Well it's a case of being partially right. Yes, some few funky effects rely on signal smear but for the most part precision looks better.. If you're playing one of the 0.5% of Genesis games that use this and it's important to you then it's easy enough to flip over to composite mode or, easier still just turn the sharpness way down.

>>840869
Any motion looks blurry on a sample-and-hold display (except with really high framerates that are impossible with consoles). Fast scrolling backgrounds are just the most obvious place to see it.

BTW, in the case of games running at a framerate lower than the refresh rate, motion will look terrible no matter what display you use, so don't bother doing the comparison with an N64 game or similar.

Consider for example Apple IIs. They generate color entirely with NTSC bleed. No NTSC=no color.

>>840883
I still think that's super neato. It blew me away when I read that article.

I highly doubt the composite upscalers on hdtvs properly blend native Apple II or c64 colors though.

>>840882
Motion looks fine on my HDTV except occasionally watching sports

>>840894
It has nothing to do with scaling. The colors are a trick of NTSC chroma bleed. Also C64s don't use this trick.

>>840896
Yes televised sports is another revealing example because of the quickly scrolling backgrounds.

>>840896
Movies run at 24fps, so they are a case of frame rate lower than the refresh rate. Normal TV runs at 60i, which is typically deinterlaced to 30p, so again motion quality is poor.

Try the side-by-side test with an old-school CRT TV and a 60fps fast scrolling 2D game. It's really obvious when you see it in person.

>>840896
That's why you get a plasma. Sports are definitely better having seen them running at Target.

>>840882
motion's looked pretty fine to me so far, but then again I haven't played many fast games. Unless you count Outrun but I don't think that's the right kind of fast

>>840910
What happens when you use a 6th gen console? (all 480i)

>>840915
SMB has some mild smearing on the backgrounds

I have in my NES collection:

SMB
SMB2
SMB3
Bad Dudes
Donkey Kong Classics
MM1
Castlevania
Double Dragon
Bubble Bobble
Kirby
Pac-Man
Ms. Pac-Man
Zelda I
Zelda II
DQ1
DQ2

The only game I can think of off-hand that would be a good motion test is KA as I already mentioned

>>840917
There won't be much difference between 6th gen consoles running 480i on a crt vs an hdtv. The crt may look slightly better but the hdtv will run 480p (and probably way above) and look better at those resolutions, unless you put it up against an hd crt then it's personal preference although most people prefer not to haul around hundred pound hd crts.

>>840883

Dude... is that why Wizardry looks like this?

Does my Apple II emulator just need a NTSC filter to make it look proper?

>>840917
I don't care about 6th gen. Good thing too, because 480i will never look good on anything. Even a CRT can't save it.

I think that all this CRT fetish it's just a childish paranoia. Soon we'll see thread about adult gamers that for enjoying more the retrogaming experience will dress as they were kids, painting pimples on their face just like they had.

>>840960
No, that color is intentional. It's effectively monochrome graphics modulating the NTSC colorburst. You could get better looking graphics out of it with careful design, but there's really no way to avoid text looking like shit.

>>840960
Real NTSC would look way softer and fuzzier than that

>>840962
If they wanted to do that, they'd use some old woodgrain set, not their pwecious PVMs

>>840973
Yes that's pretty accurate. We're far more likely to have ponytails than emo bangs.

>>840969

I'm saying the only decent Apple II emulator for windows doesn't have an NTSC filter

>>840968

So, even to Apple II users on classic original hardware way-back-when, Wizardry had these ugly as shit colors?

>>840938
Perfect example, the curtain raise animation at the start of SMB3. The number of pixels scrolled is constant each frame, which makes the difference even more obvious.

>>840993
>So, even to Apple II users on classic original hardware way-back-when, Wizardry had these ugly as shit colors?

Well...sort of. But actually a lot of Apple IIs were used with monochrome monitors so that the only colors anyone ever saw were green.

>>841001
That's what I had.

>>840993
Try King's Quest

>>840938
Try out DQ. These do 60 fps scrolling.

>>841006
>That's what I had
Yeah a lot of schools were way behind the times and still sporting Apple IIs into the 90s. Mine had Tandy 3000s and IBM PS/2s.

There's still smear/blur even on CRTs due to phosphor persistence

try this: run your mouse pointer around the desktop. notice how much it smears because the monitor can't update the screen fast enough. That's what we mean by motion blur.

>>841009
Good example. Checked it out, very obvious difference with this game.

>>841015
This was the 80s for me.

>>841023
Yes, but it's extremely minor. It's less than I get with software black frame insertion on a 120Hz LCD, and I consider than tolerable.

>>841027
Ok you were two years old drooling on your uncle's Apple II keyboard. Whatever.

>>840960
Good explanation of Apple II graphics here:
http://www.filfre.net/2011/10/mystery-house-part-1/

>>841025
Right. LCDs physically cannot turn their pixels off fast enough to achieve the same fluidity of CRTs.

I have a VGA CRT monitor and I instantly notice the response time difference vs LCDs

>>841043
It's very little to do with pixel switching time. Modern pixels can switch pixels in 2ms, that's going to add an extremely small amount of blur. The majority of the blur isn't on the screen, it's in the human brain. We didn't evolve to correctly interpret such unnatural motion as you get from a sample-and-hold display.

See >>838008

>>841038
I was in elementary school. My dad did sell computers, we had a kaypro at home then a TI that belonged to us. The computer labs in my elementary school were IIe's with composite monitors but we only got like 45 minutes a week with them. The computers in my gifted class were IIc's with monochrome monitors but we were allowed to run way more stuff on them. The IIc's with monochrome monitors seemed better to me for some reason.

>>841057
you realize that real life doesn't have flicker

>>841071
You already posted this, and it's still just as irrelevant, because real life still doesn't have a framerate.

>>841057
I don't think motion blur is that big a deal because otherwise they wouldn't have gotten rid of CRTs.

>>841080
Also, McDonalds is the height of gourmet cuisine, Britney Spears is a great musician, and reality TV is high quality art.

>>841096
not him, but I worked at Best Buy and nobody wants those hefty antediluvian monstrosities back. Have you tried staring at a CRT on your PC for more than a few minutes or trying to adjust the convergence on them?

It sucks.

>>841096
>using music as the basis of an argument on quality when it's one of the most subjective mediums there is

>>841110
No I have never stared at a crt for more than a few minutes.

>>841110
I used a high end CRT for years. It was comfortable enough to look at and had no problems with convergence. I now use a 120Hz LCD, which is a slight step down in motion quality, but more convenient because of smaller size. I can emulate 60fps games at 120fps with black frame insertion and it looks close enough.

>>841118
The point is most people don't give a shit about motion quality, they just like what's popular. Most people still consider 24fps movies acceptable, that's worse than running a 60fps game on a sample-and-hold display.

>>841123
Then you're apparently underage. The eyestrain those damn things make is terrible.

>>841130
>>841110
YOU ARE AN IDIOT. WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT USING A CRT TO DO MS OFFICE, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT USING IT FOR THE VERY NICHE PURPOSE OF RETRO GAMING. SUCK MY BALLS.

>>841130
If you played real games instead of faggy JRPGs then it would only take about 30 minutes to be fully entertained and it wouldn't be an issue.

>>841135
Ok then good luck convincing Sony to resurrect the Trinitron so some nerd can play his Colecovision with no lag

Lemme tell you about the wonderful Gateway aperture grille monitor that was given to me:

>less sharp than shadow mask CRTs
>grays all had a reddish tinge to them
>adjusting the convergence was almost impossible

>>841152
Surplus supply currently far outstrips demand. It probably will continue to until oleds catch up.

>>841168
>inb4 some autist protests that OLED is Hurr sampal and hawld

>>841168
>>841172
It's imaginable that OLED will eventually be bright enough to simulate a CRT raster. Even updating multiple lines at once could be acceptable. There's a tradeoff between latency and brightness here, and it won't cost much latency to get a very big increase in brightness.

>>841180
As I said before, in the world of computers the ultimate answer to everything ends up being to throw more power at it. It just takes a certain amount of time. As far as displays go, it'll probably line up about right in the ten-more-years kind of time frame.

>>841129
>Most people still consider 24fps movies acceptable, that's worse than running a 60fps game on a sample-and-hold display.
>being this autistic about frame rates

>>841228
Go watch some Showscan. We've had the technology for movies to look acceptable since the 70s.

>>841228
No sorry, 24 fps is not ok in this day and age. It existed because film stock was expensive in the early days and that was the least amount they could used and still have an acceptable framerate.

tl;dr we've been restrained by the limitations of 1920s technology far longer than we should have

>>841304

Film stock is still expensive

>>841304
You ever wonder why LOTR switched back to 24fps after it's original 60fps showing?

Unless you want all of your shows and movies to look like soaps.

>>841332
It's 2013, why the fuck are you shooting film?

>>841349
LOTR was never in 60fps. The Hobbit is 48fps only in the 3D version, which is a great improvement over 24fps but still not enough.

>>841351
"People don't use typewriters anymore or index cards at the public library or carburetors in cars. Why then should we still use film?"

-- George Lucas

>>841349
So your only argument against 60fps films is that you're not used to it.

>>841349
>>>/mu/
You'll fit right in.

>vinyl
>shoegaze
>noise
>you can tell it's good because it sounds like shit

>>841356
The point I'm trying to make is that 60 frames is too distracting and disorienting, would render all the special effects which have been perfected for decades useless, and would take up much more storage space (both on a disc and on reel) as opposed to sticking with 24 frames.

Games need to stick to 60 frames, because they have no post processing effects to help with the illusion of movement, movies are quite different in that regard.

>>841371
No it does not. Unlike you I actually have watched Showscan, and it looks fucking awesome. You're the kind of asshole holding back progress.

>>841379
Yeah, and I have actually watched movies on my friend's 240Hz television

It looks like I'm watching a fucking soap.

>>841385
Interpolating bullshit. True 240Hz TVs don't exist.

>>841371

No

It means that we need new techniques to take full advantage of 60 fps in film

>>841385
>It looks like I'm watching a fucking soap

Took the words right out of my mouth. It looks tacky and made for TV.

>>841391
They're called "panning" and "action scenes".

Interpolated framerate multiplication is the temporal version of those scale3x type emulator filters.

>>841407
So it makes it look better?

>>841371
>dont evolve

Fuck you, the future is higher and higher fps. In 10 years everything will be standard 120fps/hrz.
Movies cannot evolve any more. The only thing they can do currently is have a higher fps and a higher resolution.

>>841393
You've been conditioned to think that way by movie studios

>>842417
Not really. 24 frames looks to be about the same level of motion that real life does.

>>842421
No they do not. They very well do not.
http://boallen.com/fps-compare.html
120fps looks god-like, and you clearly do not own a 120hrz monitor.

Archon is one NES game that I wonder if it can work on LCDs. The Basilisk is one fast fucker. I hate that guy since it's hard as fuck to even see his tiny projectile coming at you.

Whereas the computer versions are quite a bit slower and easier.

The response time difference of LCDs vs CRTs is noticeable to me easily. Never liked how it feels like you're wading through molasses on the former.

>>842430
>I once thought TV and movies should all be 60 FPS. But a comment by Naim Sutherland made me think twice.

>The goal of motion pictures is not to recreate reality, it's not even to show reality. I want to create a little psychic link between you and my pictures. I want to suck you into the world of the story, suspend your disbelief and make you forget about yourself and your life and just be in the moment of the film.

>By not showing enough visual information, we force the brain into filling in the gaps... it draws you in even more. It's part of how you let go to the point where you can laugh or cry or feel tense or afraid or elated.

Haven't you guys even seen The Hobbit? It looks fucking weird.

>>842503
The near absense of motion blur in the 48fps version of The Hobbit says otherwise, to me. Just as it is with action games, action movies could definitely use a bump in framerate.

Shame the movie itself sucked, but hey, it was damn beautiful to look aside from the CGI.

>>842503
That's an excuse.
You don't "fill the gaps" in any meaningful sense if shown a movie at low framerates. The whole "filling the gaps" is when there's something you simply can't see, hear, or otherwise be directly shown. It's the only way to make horror work, give the viewers an image of their own instead of some dumb looking monster.

Just like CGI, higher frames can better enhance the movie, but unlike CGI you cannot rely on it.
Like people keep saying, it works especially well for action scenes and the like, because you can see things much more clearly.
A higher framerate would do nothing to hamper or degrade any aspect of a movie, and would improve most things in a visual sense.

People sticking to an archaic standard is pointless.

>>842507
I didn't see the 48fps version, but from what I heard it made stuff like big sweeping shots of the location scenery look crisp and beautiful, but stuff made for the film looked worse; rooms looked like sets, people's faces looked like make-up and prosthetics etc. It shattered the illusion that's normally there.

I think if the film starts anything, it'll be a mix of 24 and 48 in film; 48fps for action films and movies with epic grandeur, and 24fps for dramas and so on.

>>842527
> rooms looked like sets, people's faces looked like make-up and prosthetics etc.

But that's how movies always look to me, but I'm the kind of person that loves seeing details like that and specifically looks for things that show how special effects were made in movies. I don't at all see how a framerate can heighten or lower one's suspension of disbelief. Some of the makeup in The Hobbit was really lousy, but it would've looked just as lousy as a still image, nevermind in motion of any kind.

As for the backgrounds, I never had that feeling at all. It's not like the Star Wars prequels which had backgrounds that consisted entirely of CG. They were definitely real and I never felt anything different than I normally do watching movies. I mean, yeah, some of the shots were very awkward, but that's largely due to Peter Jackson pushing for 3D, forcing actors to do takes by themselves and then splice them into the final product.

I don't know; we're getting way off topic as is.

>>842527
FPS does not impact how sets or people look. Resolution would do that.
FPS only impacts how you see things in motion.

If anything, a higher fps helps with the viewers suspension of disbelief because it looks more natural and realistic.

And if anyone says a higher fps looks unrealistic, they need to go outside or something.

>>842553
It's like you don't know a damn thing about film

>>842559
It's like you hate progress and are content to stick with dating standards.
Do you still use PATA and 2.5's on your Pentium 2?

>>842539
I mean it's that the difference between the real and the artificial is made jarringly obvious, like, you can instantly tell a real rock from a fibreglass one, or whether a castle was a real one from a location shoot or a set built for the film. It's okay if you consiously try to pick out this and that, but films work by suspension of disbelief: that is, if you don't try to pick apart the illusion, it won't jump out at you jarringly.

This is what I was talking about originally, I'll clarify: it's NOT that people were able to pick out the details because they knew beforehand it wasn't real, it's that the difference between what it's supposed to depict and what's actually there is jarringly noticeable and in-your-face the moment you see it, you can't not notice it.
A succesful film in this respect is one where this difference is as seamless as possible.

but as I say, I didn't see the 48fps version, so I can only report on what I've heard from other people.

http://boards.4chan.org/g/res/34865850

I know one of you guys did this. Fuck you, /vr/.

>>842625
what are you talking about, there were CRT threads in /g/ before /vr/ existed

/g/ has vitriol too

>>842625
I don't think we're that stupid.
The only thing nowadays that works on CRT etc is retro games.

>>842676
And anything that requires motion

>>842691
I'm pretty sure watching a Blu-ray of the season 2 of Game of Thrones looks better on my monitor, and there's plenty of motion in that.
Same with watching HD re-masterings of Monty Python.
Oh, and playing any game that can do 120fps.

I love CRT's as much as the next guy, but they have no place in anything made in the last 10 years.

>>842406
Depends on your tolerance for artifacts.

>>842421
From my own personal testing with LEDs and signal generators, you need about 20000fps to perfectly replicate real life under all viewing conditions.

>>842503
Anti-progress bullshit. How am I supposed to be sucked into the world of the story if it all turns to blur as soon as something moves? There's a reason all movie action scenes are so unrealistic, and that's because it's literally impossible to show realistic ones at 24fps.

Also fuck those ridiculous "punching" sound effects you get in any fight scene. If you had a high framerate then realistic punching would seem brutal enough without them.

>>842527
You can always see sets/makeup/etc. Higher framerate doesn't change that. If the movie is good you will be too focused on the story to bother searching for tiny visual flaws.

>>841025
I try this on a CRT and no blur

Plasma master race reporting here.

>>846560
Should probably turn the widescreen off

How does the motion quality rate compared to LCDs? I think it ought to be at least somewhat better.

>>846561
If you want to test motion quality, 5th gen games are the wrong way to go since they only run at 30 fps

>>846560
Looks great!

>What LCD screens are the best for vintage consoles?
thats like asking what piece of plywood is best for a mattress

>>847907
>what piece of plywood is best for a mattress
depends in your budget...

Any.

People claiming CRT is objective better has fallen prey to the placebo effect. Just go LCD. Don't be a fucking hipster.

>>848897
Until you want to play Duck Hunt ;)

>>848907
And Punch Out and the assorted other games that rely on CRT tricks

>>848903

Oh no, I can't play with the Zapper. Trade-off being a television with a vastly superior picture, I think I'll manage.

>>848909
It's a sad day when no input lag is refered to as a "trick"

Just buy a half decent CRT anywhere in town, hook that shit up to your retro consoles and play some goddamn games. Make yourself a nice little retro corner in your room or house.

The fact these fucktarded threads keep popping up just means that mods aren't doing their jobs. Just ban TV threads on /vr/ and be done of it, only way to kill cancer is to cut off the tumor.

>>848903
>>848909
>being this retarded
>responding to an obvious troll and underage kid
>>848924
CRT threads have been a cornerstone of /vr/ since the very beginning. They definitely belong here as retro gaming is one of their most popular uses these days and we need a place to actually discuss the technical side behind everything so that people don't go around calling input lag "CRT tricks".

I have a Samsung 46' lcd and it runs my nes/snes/n64 perfectly when plugged through the AV inputs

>>848938
Holy shit dat projection

>>848940
Ok but I bet it doesn't work when you try to play >>848903 and >>848909

>>848940
Except that is literally impossible, and you'd notice a difference if you had spent any real length of time in your life gaming on a CRT screen.

>>848938

I like my left ballsac as much as the next guy, but if cutting it off prevents me from dying, by all means... chop that bitch off.

>>848948
My Sony HDTV is bretty gud although it does sport some deinterlacing artifacts. Of course nobody's claiming it can be 100% of a CRT.

>>848951
>muh projections
>>>/v/

>>848959
>I have a Samsung 46' lcd and it runs my nes/snes/n64 perfectly when plugged through the AV inputs
>perfectly

>>848963
sorry, meant to reply to >>848940

It sucks how it used to be that all TVs were CRTs that worked exactly the same and you could always know a game was going to work and display correctly. Whereas now every goddamn TV is different.

>>848959

Indeed. It's more about...

How much space you have in your gaming area (provided you have a modern home theater and play modern games and have a lot of modern consoles)

And how much your autism kicks in when things aren't exactly so. I personally have the room for an extra CRT and I used a CRT for retro gaming, but if I didn't have the room or need to make space, I would dump the shit in a second.

>>848959
>bretty gud
Kill yourself, you stupid Krautchan faggot

>>848970
You can buy any crappy 13" portable CRT at a thrift store and all your retro games will work perfectly on it. Space should not be an issue.

>>848947
>>848948
I have not tried duck hunt, but I have heard elsewhere that it wouldn't work. I could go ahead and try it and report the results if anyone is bothered enough.

I play enough nes games that I know when there is lag. My parents have a 720p plasma that can not play any AV input games without lag. Mine does not lag. It did lag some games, but works perfectly if you disable the stupid 120hz software (its easy to find in the menu)

Specific tv I have is:

Samsung LN46C630 46-Inch 1080p 120 Hz LCD HDTV

http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-LN46C630-46-Inch-1080p-Black/dp/B0036WT3RA

I could take a picture of it, but I'm lazy. I have the tv, and it works perfectly. I can do the block puzzles from Megaman, or play Zelda1, or play F Zero X without any lag what so ever.

>>848978
I should also add that I can do the wall jumps in super metroid without any (lag) problem.

>>848978
Zapper games can't work because they depend on super-fast flicker that an LCD cannot do because it's physically impossible.

>My parents have a 720p plasma that can not play any AV input games without lag

Old shitty set from the mid-2000s. Obvious.

>I could take a picture of it, but I'm lazy. I have the tv, and it works perfectly. I can do the block puzzles from Megaman, or play Zelda1, or play F Zero X without any lag what so ever.

Generally they consider PO the acid test. This game dicks with HDTVs in such a way that you can be 4-5 frames behind and can't beat Mike Tyson.

>>848990
To make a long story short, about 80% of games will work on HDTVs, but the other 20% fall apart.

>>837663
>oh boy here we go

>>848995
>but the other 20% fall apart.

Give me a few examples of the other 20%. I am no good at punchout. I can't get past the bald guy in the second league, so I wouldnt be able to tell you if there was that minute of a lag.

I would be interested in trying out other games. I am curious to know if there is some nearly undetectable lag.

>>848998
Of course you can't beat him because your piece of shit LCD fucks the game up

>I would be interested in trying out other games. I am curious to know if there is some nearly undetectable lag

I know that many fighter games have problems, sometimes shmups, and Guitar Hero

Boot up some SMB. If Mario doesn't flicker when he's hit, then the TV is not fast enough to allow you to play PO or Zapper games.

>>849014
>Of course you can't beat him because your piece of shit LCD fucks the game up

Basically any of them

because dose game resolutions BE TINY NIG NOG

ALSO DON'T FILTER YOU FUCKS

>>838253
Feels bad knowing that I'll never beat Punch Out. I'm just too damn slow. I managed to beat Super Macho Man on the friggen Animal Crossing version on an LCD screen, but I'm just unable to beat Tyson.

>>849108
I am absolutely certain that it's impossible to beat Mike unless you're using a CRT

>>849118
I've managed to knock him down twice and survive to the third round. I'm sure it can be done, but not by me. Certainly not by me.