/vr/ - Retro Games

>>8347929
One could argue that it is not the greatness of Carmack that is making this feat impossible, but the shittiness of Amiga instead.

>>8347929
You're never going to get a game designed to run on a 486 @ 33 MHz running on a 68k @ 7 MHz.

A better question is why would anyone want to?

>>8347929
It'll happen eventually. It was recently ported successfully to TempleOS.

>>8347929
That rests solely on the capabilities of the Amiga 500, or rather, the lack of them for handling a game with sophisticated gameplay and graphics like that. PC had Doom because a 486 machine could do it, hell, a 386 machine can kinda do it if you make some concessions.

>>8348196
There's two kinds of guys on this subject, with the first one, he wants to do it for the fun challenge of it, he'll want to see if it's really as impossible as people say, and if they were wrong, he can flaunt his programmer balls for it. To him, it's all just fun and games.
Then there's the other kind of dude, who has some kind of inferiority complex over computer brands, and ties his ego to this shit, effectively making him like a 12 year old console warrior, except he's in his 40s and has been seething about Commodore going out of business for 27 years.

>>8348206
TempleOS isn't a physical machine, it's an operating system. You could put the effort in to make the game boot on an Amiga 500, but it's going to be a slideshow. People made Doom run on later Amiga computers, because in spite of needing a few tricks for that, those machines had enough power to work with.

>>8347941
> cool N64 game
> doesn't run on the SNES
> OMFG SPERRRRG THE SNES IS SHIT!!!!!!11111!!!!

>>8348369
Who are you quoting

>>8347929
Fuck the Amiga 500.

>>8348206
To be fair everything is possible with God.

>>8348626
Can a man become a woman? Checkmate christcuck

i actually thought there were ports of doom on the amiga and st, unless im thinking of wolfenstien instead.

>>8348664
There were, but they won't run on a stock Amiga 500.

>>8348664

yeah its wolf, there were ports of it done a few years back.

>>8348676

Ahh, i knew i def recalled seeing one of the early fps games running, somewhat badly, but nevertheless running on an atari st.

>>8348372
you? It's demonstration by analogy.

>>8348778
You were spergin', not quotin'

Forget the A500, it couldn't even work on the AGA machines.

I think there is probably a way to get it working in some sense. Not because I know much about the machine in question but just because so many things that I thought were impossible have already happened.

>>8348681
The Atari ST Falcon can handle Doom. It's a pretty rare machine, though. Hardly sold at all.

For Amiga you'd need an Amiga 2000 or 3000 which has a 68020 or 68030 CPU.

>>8348960
This is as close as you're going to get. It's impressive. But it's not Doom. http://www.indieretronews.com/2021/09/dread-wip-doom-clone-on-amiga-500-gets.html

>>8349734
Should also point out Doom was ported to classic Mac computers, which also had a 68k based architecture at the time. Apple would shift to PowerPC shortly after.

Doom can be made to run on the Amiga just fine. For a given value of Doom. You can get anything to run on anything else if you're willing to rewrite enough code and toss enough shit overboard.

>>8347929
>Amiga 50
>M68K

There are multiple M68K ports of DOOM, anon. Assuming there's no Amiga 500 version it's probably just that nobody bothered.

>>8347929
>no one has still managed to get it running on an Amiga 500?
Well the A500 now has Dread. A500 is about as powerful as the Mega Drive, a bit worse at 2D but better at 3D. What makes you think Doom could possibly run on a Mega Drive?

Amiger

>>8348661
Yes.

>>8349734
Looking at Falcon Wikipedia, it had a 32MHz DSP in addition to a 68030. We had a 25MHz 68040 Quadra and it couldn't run Doom full screen. It says the Falcon could play MP3s as well. MPEG 1 and 2 including MPEG 1 layer 3 had to be transcoded to something else because the 68040 wasn't fast enough. I'm sure that DSP was doing the heavy lifting.

The Amiga 500 had a 68k clocked slower than the Sega Genesis. Unless you bolt on extra hardware, there isn't a snowballs chance in hell it could be made to play real Doom.

>>8348885
>im a massive retard
Do tell.

Still mad that the Saturn port was botched because of Carmack's autism over texture warping. Even he, in retrospect, admitted he was wrong.

>>8353580
what's this about?

>>8353584
I think (not totally sure what he's referring to) this is about the time a developer was basically making Doom again from the ground up on the saturn and it was going relatively well. Then Carmack came in and instead demanded that there be a direct port made and as a result doom on the saturn is a hot fat shit.

>>8351879
If I remember correctly the issue is less about the CPU and more about the Amiga's video hardware that makes it unable to run it fast enough.

>>8353580
The jaguar port of doom looks and runs better than ultimate doom on ps1 too thanks to this.

>>8353406
>The Amiga 500 had a 68k clocked slower than the Sega Genesis
they are both 7.16Mhz but the Amiga loses 20% CPU speed during active render due to the memory mapped video

>>8347941
You take that back!

>>8354252
>>8353580
>>8353584
Jim Bagley claims he had super port of Doom in the works which gave a consistent 60fps, on the Sega Saturn. John Carmack went something like "This texture warping looks like shit, use the original rendering instead."

The resulting port of Doom isn't well optimized for the hardware, and Carmack said something to the effect of "In retrospect I should have allowed for more experimentation." I think there's probably a lot more to this than what's been told, because the entire console port is just put together like absolute shit, the audio code in particular is exceptionally retarded and contributes to much of the slowdown, it's a very inefficient port in many more ways than just the rendering.
Considering that games such as Powerslave and Duke Nukem 3D, ported by Lobotomy Software using their Slavedriver Engine, purpose made for the Sega Saturn, and ran quite well, didn't ever look at a consistent 60fps, I suspect that Carmack's complaint about affine texture warping may have been a lot more significant than Bagley lets on.

tl;dr Saturn Doom is a bad port, but it's likely not all the fault of Carmack's autistic whims.
It could have been a good port with the right effort, considering similar first person shooters on the system.

>>8348626
based

>>8356954
They had to scrap the entire hardware-rendered Bagley port and hastily come up with a software-rendered version that works on the Saturn's infamously arcane dual CPU setup.

>>8356662
nope, genesis is actually 7.67. they used a weird clock to get every last bit of power they could out of it.

>>8356602
Doubtful considering that "running DOOM" in some cases already means massive graphical downgrades. If it can display graphics then it can display DOOM at some level. Hell, even if it can't display graphics you can render to ASCII.

>>8347941
It's shitty, but it's still better than megay drive and sneshit.

>>8347929
Nobody ever talked about Doom on a Amiga 500, when Doom came out we had Amiga 4000's with '040 CPUs.
What a weird post.

>>8348316
And 486 even as a CPU is way newer than even the Amiga 500 itself

>zoomers these days think what computers like Amiga could do was shitty back in the day
lol

>inb4 muh 30,000 USD workstations

>>8358316
What, do you think the Amiga 500 was competitive in any way but price by 1993? It was hardly the most powerful Amiga computer of the time, it was many years old by this point.

>>8358312
Yeah, and the Amiga did get Breathless and Alien Breed 3d which were decent Doom clones. They both came out in 95-96.

>>8358769
Amiga 500 came out in 1987, not 1993...
Amiga 500 was extremely outdated by 1993.

>>8358769
>Amiga 500 was the only Amiga ever made
why are you posting?

>>8359304
>>8359308
OP's question was Doom on the Amiga 500, a machine which as you say was rather dated by the year 1993. This anon >>8358316 infers that people responding that the Amiga 500 lacking the power to do something like Doom are criticizing the ENTIRETY of the Amiga line, that they are suggesting no Amiga computer ever could run Doom.

Obviously, that is not true, just because the Amiga 500 specifically was outdated and underpowered for the task of Doom, doesn't mean that later Amiga hardware was. Eventually, Doom would get proper ports to machines like the Amiga 1200, and it's just as good as on a 486:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhOxrYF-SdI

More spiffy Amiga machines could likely run Final Doom fluidly.

Carmack was talking about the AGA machines when he said the Amiga couldn't handle Doom. It couldn't because the AGA models still had outdated planar graphics which were totally unsuited for the game. The man knew what he was talking about never mind 25 years of frantic Euro demoscener attempts to disprove him.

>>8357367
but he was right that Amiga's memory mapped video steals CPU cycles while the Mega Drive's port mapped video doesn't

>>8359540
>OP's question was Doom on the Amiga 500
Which is extremely stupid, as dumb as asking why Doom doesn't run on a 286.

These days we have both DOS and Amiga source ports of Doom that are much more efficient than even the original DOS port. 68020 based ECS Amigas playing Doom at native resolution over 10 FPS, etc.

>>8360690
I'm glad that we can agree about OP's sexual orientation.

>>8356602
>If I remember correctly the issue is less about the CPU and more about the Amiga's video hardware that makes it unable to run it fast enough.
this is exactly the reason why.
>>8353406
>It says the Falcon could play MP3s as well. MPEG 1 and 2 including MPEG 1 layer
that's because the Falcon had a dedicated DSP. the amiga did not.

>>8359621
yeah, but that speed is lost when moving data from cart to ram. the bus is painfully slow.

>>8351921
>What makes you think Doom could possibly run on a Mega Drive?
32X

>>8363256
>>If I remember correctly the issue is less about the CPU and more about the Amiga's video hardware that makes it unable to run it fast enough.
>this is exactly the reason why.
No, the any CPU lower than a 68020 is just too slow do to the conversion from chunky to planar for the video chipset, it's not that the video hardware is too slow, it's that Doom does not use it and wasn't programmed for it and the CPU has to do it.

That's why it's also no problem with faster CPUs even on the same hardware, a 500 can play Doom if you have a CPU expansion. Big box Amigas even had RTG and related which was literally VGA, would have ran Doom fine with even a slower CPU.

>>8347929
Doom came out the year after the Amiga 1200 came out, the 500 was quite an old model at the time and it just won't be able to run Doom at full speed. But one huge problem the Amiga platform had was that a lot of software houses decided to keep focusing on the Amiga 500 after it was obsolete which left the AGA-models lacking in software.

>>8363393
That's an expanded Megadrive and even then the port was quite crap. No way in hell a stock Megadrive could run it at a playable speed.

>>8363393
32X doom got a romhack recently that tries to fix a majority of the issues, it's how the port should have been to begin with
https://youtu.be/_ZA64eNXdaE

>>8349734
>68020 or 68030
Not even. That’s like the bare minimum and it’ll run like shit, at single digit frame rates. To run it comfortably you’d need a 68040

>>8348206
glowies BTFO'd hell yeah

closest thing I can think of is the Blood port for Amiga and it runs quite poorly
https://youtu.be/lxxaP_dObqQ

>>8363560
A 33MHz 68020 can get 8+ FPS on average at low detail but full screen with a ECS chipset. That's far better than most people with 386's played it back in the day.

>>8359540
That Amiga 1200 has a PPC accelerator though

>>8363546
>>8363560
The Amiga 4000 with a '040 had been on the market for a year already when Doom released. It also had VGA chipset based graphics cards that didn't need chunky-to-planar video conversion. Would have ran Doom better than most 486 machines at the time.

>>8348664
>wolfenstien
>stien
>ie

Why are you Americans so blind when it comes to IE and EI ??

maybe if it works doom it runs on everything

Also anything thing. How the fuck did amigas get this expensive. Like holy shit man. 1 grand for a fucking A2000? You used to be able to buy them for nothing since nobody wanted an ugly tank sitting around

>>8363610
Big following + not that many units (still a lot but compared to things like Macs, C64's, PCs, etc the numbers for anything other than Amiga 500 were pretty small)

>You used to be able to buy them for nothing since nobody wanted an ugly tank sitting around
That's the same with anything, 10-20 years ago you could find high end CRTs or Amiga 4000's or X68000 or SGI workstations, etc for pennies because that was the point where they were getting pretty useless for everyday usage and people wanted to get rid of theirs, while not being rare enough or old enough to be "special", at least Amiga always had a fanbase and most Amiga fags I know always had several, even when they were cheap, it's just that the average person was selling theirs and the market was loaded, so prices were low.

>>8363624
>10-20 years ago
Bring me back bro I wanna buy an a4000t and sgi without shelling out fucking a million dollars

>>8363630
I remember a time where thrift stores had Amiga 1200/4000 machines for 25 bucks, sometimes with 68060 upgrades, etc

>>8363637
Fuck that sounds like a gold mine

>>8363638
If I only knew I would have bought so many more

>>8363643
Thrift stores tend to not have computers anymore. Not even junky pentium 4s are there anymore

>>8356954
based retard Carmack

>>8363649
Yep, things have changed a lot.

>>8356954
>>8363656
Carmack has said/done a lot of dumb shit, just because he's intelligent and talented doesn't mean he can't be wrong.
We're talking about the guy who said in a interview that "multithreading in games will never be a thing" which is ironic considering games like 2016 Doom and Doom Eternal runs better on 16 low end cores than 8 high end cores since it scales really well with hardware threads.

>>8363658
Are u based in Europe? I can’t imagine even seeing an a4000 consistently in a thrift store during that time period in North America.

>>8363668
Yes I am
I remember even second hand clothes stores having boxes with 0.10 cent price tags on them of old consoles/computers, full kits with cables, games and extras, everything, just pick up the box

>>8363669
I heard from someone who worked in a recycling facility that they used to crush Barbie and hot wheels pc’s by the pallet 10 years ago. Funny how times change.

>>8363674
Yep, indeed
It's like people who would destroy old computer parts for gold, while these days you could get 100x as much money from some of those parts that they destroyed by kilos just to get a little gold

>>8363678
I remember people having boxes full of Pentium Pro CPUs to get gold from, while it was just a few pennies of profit per CPU. Nowadays they would sell like hotcakes even if you sold them for 1 dollar a piece and you'd still profit more with less work, in reality you could easily get much more for a single CPU though.

>>8363556
The 32X port was lacking in many ways, but framerate, resolution, and controls, were its strong point.

>>8363591
>I before E except after C
>except all the times this retarded-ass rule doesn't apply

>>8363821
>rule
We're talking about names anon, there's no rule
The word is Stein, not Stien, grab a dictionary

>>8363591
Because the Americans don't fucking speak German, what the fuck do you expect, Claus? I don't expect them to speak my language or get the rules of it either.

>>8364003
Because it's a name

>>8363591
>Goes on a place mostly populated by Americans
>Is mad when they don't know how to pronounce German words

>>8364904
>nobody who took part of making and naming Wolf3D was german
your point?

>>8363827
I was pointing out how stupid the rule is, since it has so many exceptions.

>>8357645
Cope

>>8364004
So?

>>8347929
I miss moot like you wouldn't believe.

>>8365845
>My team killed more people than your team a century ago so my ignorance is justified

This is how americans sound. Yes, I didn't capitalize your demonym on purpose. Go eat something with a lot of fat somewhere else, will you?

>>8364904
>goes on a website
>imagines the way that strangers pronounce the words they type
>not only that but they imagine that the words are being pronounced incorrectly
critical mass level of autism

Yes he was right and Amiga fanboys have yet to prove him wrong or do anything but a Doom "clone" that needs a 68060 accelerator board to run higher than 6 fps.

>>Yes he was right and Amiga fanboys have yet to prove him wrong or do anything but a Doom "clone" that needs a 68060 accelerator board to run higher than 6 fps.
>posting before reading thread

>>8347929
>Does it speak to John Carmack's programming efforts on Doom that it decades later, even with the source publicly available, no one has still managed to get it running on an 8MHz 286?

>>8366120
Why are you reading even more bullshit into what I said, you goddamn spastic? I'm saying it doesn't fucking matter that someone who doesn't even speak your language doesn't get it right, do you lose sleep over people in fucking Burundi not knowing how German works? Because I promise you they're even worse at it than the Americans.

>>8348206
You have to be shitting me

>>8357192
>>8363656
>>8363661
There's exactly zero chance that Bagley ran Doom at a consistent 60fps on the Sega Saturn (which is what he claimed), and that it looked at all good.

>>8368541
It's pretty cool, it doesn't have sound yet, but it works.

>>8368548
>There's exactly zero chance
So Carmack was lying?

>>8368548
>There's exactly zero chance that Bagley ran Doom at a consistent 60fps on the Sega Saturn (which is what he claimed), and that it looked at all good.

I love how this is now accepted fact, despite the only source is the guy responsible for Saturn Doom.
There are no FPS games on Saturn that even approach 60 fps. Not even close. If he actually got something running at that speed, Carmack probably took one look at the resulting pixelated mess and vetoed it for good reason.

>>8368541
It's a OS.
Doom also runs on the same OS Amiga 500 uses, it just don't run on a stock Amiga 500.

>>8363821
weird

>>8368575
Lying about what? That the game had heavy affine texture warping, and that he should have considered another approach than the one they went with?

>>8368582
Exactly! Again, Powerslave and Hexen didn't get to fucking 60fps on the Saturn, but Bagley says he did with Doom? There's no way he did without the game looking like a funhouse mirror at all times.

>>8347929
literally who