/vr/ - Retro Games

>>8352529
gun wasn't in the centre of the screen

>>8352529
It was a step down from Quake in basically every department. Even with a "not a Quake sequel" viewpoint, even when examined on its own, it's still not enjoyable.

boring tech base with shitty cyborgs instead of unique gothic/satanic + tech look
bullet sponge enemies
boring levels
concept that didn't bring much new and was quickly overshadowed by HL and multiplayer shooters

Not much at all. Gameplay is very strong. Soundtrack is very strong. Like many people I prefer the theme of the original, but I don't hold it against 2 for going in a different direction.

>>8352529
It starts out okay in the first few levels, then crates happen. Crates upon crates: Hanging crates, watery crates, conveyor belt crates - it's a rough start after the first few levels.
It starts to smooth out nearer the first half or so.

Quake 2 had storyfaggotry before HL.

nothing, kino game

>>8352663
Quake 2 has an intro you can skip, Unreal and Half Life don't.

>>8352670
Not talking about that, it is one of the earliest examples of some retarded story being dumped on you for no reason instead of straight forward action is what I meant.

>>8352730
meh, I just don't care.

>>8352670
>Unreal and Half Life don't.
I like Unreal's intro more than HL's. For one, it's playable. Rather than stuck in a monorail car, you can move around, collect stuff and get a hold of what happened via translator messages. Oh, and the moment where you exit the Rikers out into the plains of Na Pali.

>>8352529
slower and the controls felt shitty guns felt slow and shitty

>>8352529
peed when they supposed to crap

>>8352730
>Not talking about that, it is one of the earliest examples of some retarded story
Aliens fight earth and you retaliate. It's fairly straightforward, I'm not sure what game you're confusing Quake 2 with.

It has better multiplayer than Unreal

>>8352529
Literally nothing.

Quake II was alright, most people who played it at the time of its release enjoyed it well enough. From a present-day standpoint, it suffers from a lack of distinctive gameplay features which could draw people back to it, and it doesn't make up for its shortcomings with the endearing personality or humour that is found in games like Duke Nukem. Beyond the soundtrack, Quake II has no charm. It's the sweaty, unsmiling, long-haired kid who listens to Slayer and collects Games Workshop miniatures, never once questioning the excellence of his own taste, never finding it too adolescent because he is an adolescent.

I also think people generally enjoyed cyborgs and dismal factories more in the 90s than they do now, those things have lost their novelty over the years.

More like what went wrong with Id.

Id's lifetime project was Quake. It's already mentioned as early as in Commander Keen, as a 1st person game fully in 3D. But back in the day, technology just wasn't there, so Id decided to work on other projects, also 1st person games, but not 3D, gaining experience, while they waited for technology to advance. By the mid-90s, technology finally got to the point that Id would be able to make their dream game. When it was finally released, Id was left without a sense of purpose, they were like "what do we do now?", and Romero (the "idea guy") just left. So they followed Carmack's lead and focused on tech demos, all impressive, but bland and soulless.
It was only decades later, after Carmack also left the company, when Id, after cancelling Doom 4, received an ultimatum by their boss Bethesda ("release a hit game or we're going to close you down for good"), and was forced to give up most of their IPs to other developers, that Id finally "woke up" and found a new sense of purpose, resulting in Doom 2016 and Eternal.

>>8352596
Yes but what's in those crates?

Gameplay is a bit slow but it's still more fun to play than Q1

Xatrix's expansion is the most fun SP I've had in any Quake

>>8353043
they flew too close to the sun

>>8353043
>Id's lifetime project was Quake. It's already mentioned as early as in Commander Keen, as a 1st person game fully in 3D.
Wrong. Quake was mentioned on Commander Keen as a top-down RPG. It doesn't have anything to do with the "real" Quake from years later.

>so Id decided to work on other projects, also 1st person games, but not 3D, gaining experience, while they waited for technology to advance.
Doom IS a 3D game with Z-axis and height values. Don't be stupid to fail into that e-celeb myth that "Doom is 2D" because that was debunked several times.

>By the mid-90s, technology finally got to the point that Id would be able to make their dream game.
Quake was not their dream game. Actually the development process was very rough because of several disagreements. Romero wanted to make a medieval game with melee combat, Carmack wanted a pure sci-fi shooter, Sandy wanted a horror lovecratian game. They ended mixing everything in a rushed manner and Romero was not satisfied with the end result, frustrated that the game was just like "Doom" again.

>So they followed Carmack's lead and focused on tech demos, all impressive, but bland and soulless.
Ok, I agree with this.

>>8353104
Decent levels with the start of some great enemy improvements, it's good. It makes replaying the base campaign a lot of fun, too.
Also manages to have an even more unappealing start than the original campaign, so I can only recommend it to people who already enjoy Quake 2.

>>8352535
>>8352537
This
It was a polished space shooter with gore (tm). I played through it and don't remember much. Still a great game, phenomenal soundtrack, probably the best part actually.

>>8352529
A great game that for some reason had Quake II as the title instead of something else. So idiots refused to accept it as a great game because they wanted more of Quake (which already was diluted with hundreds and hundreds of map packs)

singleplayer campaign was pretty shit.
multiplayer fucking owned.
blaster is cringe.

>>8352529
everything

Quake 2 was substantially better than the original in every way, and I loved NIN at the time. The multiplayer was revolutionary. Quake 3 was simply evolutionary and single player mode was nonexistent. I'd say I was disappointed in Quake 3, but I was too busy playing Unreal Tournament 99 to care.

>>8352537
>bullet sponge enemies
nigga what, most enemies go down easily, especially compared to Q1

>>8352596
you mean the whole unit called 'warehouse' has crates all over it?

/vr/ hates it so that makes it good on its own. The gun animation is very satisfying and the music is quite good. Yeah the grey techbases do get a bit excessive but its experimental unit hub structure isn't bad, just not that memorable. If it wasn't presented as a Quake sequel, people would regard it more fondly

>>8353292
>you mean the whole unit called 'warehouse' has crates all over it?
That level is called "warehouse", the whole unit is "bunker/station" - and crates are through the WHOLE unit, not just warehouse. Realizing what it is won't make the crates anymore appealing to people.
The unit after is where things start to pick up.
>>8353237
They didn't think to call Quake "Doom 3" so it's weird they did this with Quake 2.

>>8352529
You made this thread

Q2 on N64 will forever be the best Q2

>>8353337
Quake 2 isn't bad, it was praised like a motherfucker for years even into Q3A era, it suffered at the hands of tim willits autism, the AI is unfinished as the model ai itself due to a sudden code change after Q2Test came out. Monster and map textures also got axed and many promotional screenshots shows stuff with more detail than what it came out.

Decino dissected all of quake 2, and there is a ton of unused stuff there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aBJ0fw-43s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFgGzDrj7OM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ro_SqyEqK4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcttNNjq0hg

In all good cases, source ports restored most of it, and mission packs are inhumanly hard.
Bonus to the fact that you can play vanilla single player and custom maps on mission packs, meaning that their new asshole AI will be used by the game.
and yes, Vanilla Q2 SP an maps using Rogue or Xatrix AI is a whole new level of BDSM

>>8353337
>That level is called "warehouse", the whole unit is "bunker/station"
no, I'm pretty sure the manual refers to the whole unit as "warehouse", like in the point where it says how to jumpstart to a unit
>Warehouse Unit exec warehouse.cfg

>and crates are through the WHOLE unit, not just warehouse
yeah, given the whole unit is "warehouse", or at least it was before someone decided to rename the unit post-release

>>8353475
>Quake 2 isn't bad
Yeah it's great, I usually recommend Mission 64 in the Doom thread.
The early storage level is just an understandable deterrent when trying to get into it.

>>8352529
>Tim Willits
>creative game designer and level designer Sandy Petersen being ousted by Tim Willits
>the creative and skilled level designer (but also somewhat unreliable worker) John Romero taking a hike before development even starts
>no muzzleflashes
>Quake brand when it didn't really have much at all to do with the first game
>Tim Willits canning lots of the more advanced A.I stuff for no good reason

>>8352535
>even when examined on its own, it's still not enjoyable.
I don't agree with that, it's still a decent game by its own merits, the first hour of the game is slow but it picks up afterwards.

>>8352537
>with shitty cyborgs instead of unique gothic/satanic + tech look
How were the Strogg not novel and unusual for their time? I love the gothic stuff in Quake 1, but a lot of it has been done before. Cyborg monstrosities made from harvested humans is at least new.

>bullet sponge enemies
Did we play the same game?

>>8352529
no soul

>>8352535
>every department
The music is way better

>>8352663
which is weird, because Q1 feels like it has a story, even though there isn't one. It's just so atmospheric

>>8352529
to make the graphics work on the new hardware cards they wanted to use, the texture filter and shading had to be compromised and ended up giving every surface an effective material property absurdly reminiscent of rubber. Thus the weapons in particular which are plenty of the screen look, and looked at the time, completely stupid

>>8352529
To make the graphics work on the new hardware cards they wanted to use, the texture filter and shading were compromised and ended up giving every surface smudged textures and reflection properties that combine into a surface absurdly reminiscent of rubber. Thus the weapons in particular, which fill much of the screen, look (and looked at the time) completely stupid

>>8353801
Fuck that george costanza looking faggot and fuck romero too

>>8354145
While I do not disagree, that is actually for the worse. The music is too distracting. The minimalist soundtrack was a perfect fit for a game like Quake.

>>8354156
> Q1 feels like it has a story

Not when there are portals with Easy, Normal, and Hard written above them. Right at the beginning this thwarts any possible story immersion, unless we assume that the demons made these inscriptions due to their good sportsmanship and sense of fairness.

>>8353801
>How were the Strogg not novel and unusual for their time? I love the gothic stuff in Quake 1, but a lot of it has been done before. Cyborg monstrosities made from harvested humans is at least new.
Goth had been done before and after. Satanism had been done before and after. Tech base was done and after. But not all 3 at once. Q1 is the only notable game that did it.
Strogg was somewhat new. But it wasn't really all that amazing. OK, they're angry half machine half humans. It's not something so cool it's gonna save a boring setting. I barely even remember how they looked and to be honest I don't care, they looked like edgy 90s action figures in the "twisted fucking psychopath" aesthetic. Maybe they were better than Q1, but at least Q1 had awesome levels. Doom had more iconic enemies by a mile.

>>8354771
>Goth had been done before and after. Satanism had been done before and after. Tech base was done and after. But not all 3 at once. Q1 is the only notable game that did it.
Quake is only “tech” for a strict ninth of the game, and Doom already had a good progression of “base” to “hellbase” to “hell”.
You play Quake 1 if you want a grim and gloomy fantasy setting shooter and you play Quake 2 if you want a grim and gloomy hightech one.
>Strogg was somewhat new. But it wasn't really all that amazing.
They’re the main thing that got me into the game. Good variety, good sound, good looks, some of my favorite shootan enemies. It was also fun finding out what they do to people as it’s told through the level design.

>>8352529
I personally enjoy Q2 much more than Q1. The second expansion wasn't great because of the turrets, but other than that, I think it's an excellent game and I replay it far more often than I replay Q1.

>>8352529
>doom
>the brown version
>people love it

This is when I knew society had fallen.

As good as Q2 may be, Q1 is legendary and its atmosphere still unsurpassed even today.

>>8354156
It has a barebones one like Doom. Small, unobtrusive, and adds just a bit of flavoring at the end of each episode.

>>8354728
That's just a glorified interface, if you can't just gloss over some small fourth wall breaking stuff at the beginning and then not enjoy the dirty and spooky tetanus-dungeons later, that's your own problem.

>>8354973
>You play Quake 1 if you want a grim and gloomy fantasy setting shooter and you play Quake 2 if you want a grim and gloomy hightech one.
I agree, I greatly enjoy both. Quake 2's main problem to me is the branding, and that Tim Wallets held it back from being better.

>Good variety, good sound, good looks, some of my favorite shootan enemies.
There really is some great variety in the enemy roster in 2, and I think they had good imagination as for how to build nasty cyberorganic robotic monsters.

>>8352529
Slower gameplay.

Lovecraftian elements gone.

Stroggs are fucking stupid lore-wise and visually.

Terrible slow guns with dumb properties.

Metal Soundtrack is good but a step back instead of horror atmosphere.

Boring compared to Quake 1.

Quake: SOUL
Quake 2: SOULLESS

>>8355202

As much as i can tell this is a shitpost from a mile away, i have to agree here.

Quake is an ugly mess that doesn't pick up until you get the grenade launcher, and for all that people like to harp about the "godlike physics" and movement on the engine, that surely did not translate to any singleplayer experience outside of speedrunning, i.e autism.

Quake 2 is fine as it is, i think this is less a case of people underrating it and more that the first is vastly overrated. Niggers really take a sideways glance at Arcane Dimensions and think "Ah, yes. The vanilla quake experience".

>>8352529
It was an evolution while people expected a revolution.

>>8353168
>Doom IS a 3D game with Z-axis and height values.

Nah, it only has height values for individual sectors. Monsters and objects are still in purely 2d space. You can't run under a Cacodemon floating up high, you can push switches after they sank into the ground in Doom 2 map 1, etc.

People who shit on Quake 2 tend to do so purely based on aesthetics. There is nothing inherently wrong with a sci-fi cyborg realm. I quite like it, honestly.
Rather, Quake 2 suffers from sluggish gameplay. Pretty much every aspect has been made to feel heavy and slow-paced.

Nothing will ever top tapping 3 and making a flick shot towards a hitscan enemy trying to ambush you. Pure fucking adrenaline.

>>8356386
This post fails to acknowledge projectiles not being infinitely tall.
>>8356397
At least you say "pretty much", that leaves leeway for some things that don't feel heavy and slow-paced. Namely the movement.

>>8356441
>This post fails to acknowledge projectiles not being infinitely tall.
Wait, really? So if you're shooting a pistol at a demon on a high enough platform you won't kill it?

>>8352529
The title. They should've called it something else.

>>8356375
>>>8352529 (OP)
>It was an evolution while people expected a revolution.

I don't know. It still was a revolution. Keep in mind that this is the game that made OpenGL universally accepted across all 3D accelerators and GPU's. All of the major card manufacturers were patching in OpenGL just to support Quake II and GL Quake. The Khronos Group came in later to take control of OpenGL and manage its version updates. Early implementations were inconsistent.

It was all about multiplayer. I'm guessing you know who Dennis Fong was, right?

>>8352529
Sure as fuck not the multiplayer, which was the whole reason they even made the game. The single-player was only there because they thought people expected it.

>>8356671
"Quake" was basically the umbrella term that id Software used for all their games in the late 90s.

Dull.

>>8356835
I played against Thresh on an Australian Q2 server once. He had an awful ping in the 800s from being on the wrong side of the world but raped me six ways sideways anyway.

>>8353014
this. It's a lighter Seinfeld effect. There weren't 100s of 3d FPS being shat out of every region of the world with terrible performance, and questionable design like the 2000s on. Quake 2 seems like a half-ass game/tech demo because it was the first one like that. I played it back then and it blew me away. I did a playthrough a few years ago and it was very meh experience. At the time, it was a good game with some cool things going on. 8 years later after it's release, a bunch of slavs could shit out Q2 in 3 months and sell it in the discount software section. That doesn't make Q2 a shitty game to me

>>8356835
Ironic, because Quake 2 feels like to shit to play on a LAN with its 10Hz tickrate. Both Quake 1 and Quake 3 default to 20Hz.

>>8356441
>Namely the movement
Gimping the air acceleration to the point where you have to be extremely precise with the strafing?
It was so bad that the Quake 3 pro mod restored some of the air control.

>>8352529
OpenGL.

>>8352529
As it turns out, audiences didn't want video games, they wanted expository walking simulators like Half Life.

>>8357935

>>8357928
>Gimping the air acceleration to the point where you have to be extremely precise with the strafing?
"Yes, but.."?
Not that I don't agree, it's more to the 'heavy' feel they were trying out but you'd be faster - yet stiffer - in Quake 2 from 1.

>>8356386
>Nah, it only has height values for individual sectors. Monsters and objects are still in purely 2d space.
Wrong, wether or not an object can pass over or under any world geometry will always depend on if its height and width can actually fit, if a ledge is low enough to be scalable ot can be dropped down from, if a path is wide enough. Projectiles and hitscans must also match the height of monsters or players to make a hit, or it will pass above or below, continuing past the target.

What is true is that explosions have infinite height and only checks for width, and that monsters and players cannot pass over or under each other.
Some people are confused by the vertical auto-aim, but what happens here is that shots are adjusted vertically to compensate for the lack of vertical mouselook. If the target isn't actually in your line of sight, the auto-aim will do nothing to adjust your shots towards the target in question, and your projectile or hitscan will go straight forward as normal (and this is regardless of if it is another player, a monster that is idle, or active).
This is easily demonstrated by placing a monster in a pit or down a ledge, and firing towards it, if the sector the monster stands on is also an elevator moving him up and down continuously, one can also easily demonstrate physical height.

There's also the matters of the player being able to scale ledges and stairs, be moved up or down by elevators, being able to drop from heights, and even a specific enemy attack which launches the player up into the air, not just visually, but physically, and this effect can be exploited by the player to reach places they normally couldn't reach (in the Final Doom expansion, this is utilized deliberately, being the only way for the player to reach a certain secret area in a level, if you kill the monster, you miss this secret).

>>8352529

nothing faggot. you played the story once, and then played 1k hours of mp. player mods were awesome as well.

>>8353168
>Romero wanted to make a medieval game with melee combat, Carmack wanted a pure sci-fi shooter, Sandy wanted a horror lovecratian game. They ended mixing everything in a rushed manner and Romero was not satisfied with the end result, frustrated that the game was just like "Doom" again.
Not entirely.

Everyone was on board with Romero's initial idea, an open world fantasy RPG with a dark and gothic setting, the idea of Quake and it being an open world fantasy RPG had long been discussed and spitballed by the guys, they had played a lot of D&D in the past and were strongly inspired by this (and guys like Sandy had long roots of his own with pen & paper RPGs of various kinds, including but not limited to D&D, such as writing The Call Of Cthulhu).
There were a few preliminary attempts at getting Quake off the ground in the past, before and after Doom, but it never took off due to tech limitations.

However, by the time its development started for real lot of the visuals were drafted out or finished while this was still the concept, Sandy had lots of input here still and he was pretty much in his element when it came to working with the visuals, much of the textures, architecture, and even the models, existed while Quake was still supposed to be an RPG.

>>8353168
There was two problems though, the first is that Carmack wanted to make Quake do true texture mapped 3D in software rendering, and like Doom he was using Binary Space Partitioning to make this happen, but this was a really complex and difficult development, it took a long time for many things to happen, and as a result there often wasn't a lot any of the guys could do to actually build the game yet, thus guys like Adrian and Kevin would spend much time waiting and just drawing up textures to kill the time.

The other is that Romero's focus had REALLY shifted by this time, using the lack of much of an engine as an excuse, he would go and work on side projects like Hexen, Strife, DWANGO (mind, most of these were critically successful and made them all a lot of money and demonstrated what their tech could do), and he would spend much time out of the office to talk to the press, or spend much time playing Doom deathmatch, either with guys like Shawn, or random fans online.

Their egos, and the scope of the project, would come to a head, and as it became clear that Quake wasn't going to become what it was meant to be anywhere close to deadline, five months from then, people like Carmack had suggested the approach of "Fuck it all, let's just take what we have now, build it into a shooter game like Doom (which we can do fast), and then we'll use this engine to start on a different game after we're done with Quake."
Romero was still attached to the original vision, and was strongly opposed to this, he eventually decided that he was being stifled at iD Software, and that Quake would be the last game he made there, and made plans for the future. As everyone else agreed that the development was unsustainable, and they should just salvage what they have, he begrudgingly went along with this approach, and they all get to work on making the game Quake would become.

>>8353270
>blaster is cringe.
Found the railfag

>>8356386
You are a fucking idiot mate. EVERY entity in Doom have height values. Just open it on Dehacked and see for yourself.

"Infinitelly tall" actors are a thing that was put on the Doom engine for performance reasons. It doesn't have anything to do with the Z-Axis. You can easily disable it on the source code (which is what Crispy Doom does).

Watch this and stop being retarded: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYGJQqhMN1U

>>8356386

>>8359136
>EVERY entity in Doom have height values. Just open it on Dehacked and see for yourself.
Even better, he can open Doom in a map editor (any of the Doom Builders is really easy and straight forward, it even has a first person 3D mode), then see that monsters all have a collision box with height and width, and he can see that if a monster is for instance placed in a space which is too small for him, either it's too short or too narrow, the monster will be stuck because he can't fit.
Someone should really make a level for the vanilla game, along with a recorded demo, which demonstrates all of these things so that a person can see in real time where level geometry and the physics are at play and how they affect how Things can interact with and move through their environment.

Also, Heretic came out just a year after Doom, it uses the same engine with just a few changes, including monsters and players being able to move above and below each other. Heretic doesn't just use this for combat, it also uses this functionality to create floating bridges of glittering sparks, which they player can walk on top of to climb and cross chasms.
It's only just a few lines of code for this change.

>>8359114
love me some railgun
it still wasnt quite hitscan with the lag and all

>>8352529
everything it did would be done better by unreal the next year, so quake 2 never had enough time in the limelight.

>>8357921
Mad at lans that happened over 20 years ago

>>8352529
>>8352535
So you guys weren't around for deathmatching.
Sad.

>>8360641
I was, shit was tight as fuck.

>>8352529
Nothing. Q2 was a great shooter, even if its art direction was a bit unimaginative.
It was a transitional title between Doom and Half-Life schools of design. It still had elements of the keyhunting, its levels were structured like real military bases, but they was of an alien race so appeared kinda mazelike and abstract, it had seamless transition between maps but they still were parts of larger levels. Partially, that was the reason why it paled in comparison with Half-Life and especially Unreal. But bear in mind, it beat Unreal by half a year to the market, and Half-Life by 11 months. Back then, it was a lot of time, and for that time, Q2 was king. In modern perspective, of course, nothing stands off about it besides the soundtrack - it wasn't a trendsetter like HL or that much of a technical marvel which Unreal was.

>>8359104
There was another problem still. Around 1995, it was decided to reform the organization of all of Id. All walls were torn down, individual devrooms were abolished, and the entire team was made to work in the same room, all beside each other. That way, they could have instant assess to each other’s input and assistance, and also allowed them to keep an eye on those that spent too much time NOT working. This new arrangement increased bickering and infighting tenfold, fueled by higher stress levels due to the loss of privacy and personal space. Nevertheless, it was long lasting, as it was still in place as of Doom 3’s release, almost a decade later.

>>8357395
Basically this. I grew up on Q2 and didn't play original quake until a few years ago, and I realized how much better of a game original Quake is.

>>8352825
>I like Unreal's intro more than HL's. For one, it's playable. Rather than stuck in a monorail car, you can move around, collect stuff and get a hold of what happened via translator messages.
Understandable, but the playability and short length also made it not stand out that much. I felt like it was a smaller part of the first level, not an event per se.

>>8360815
>it had seamless transition between maps but they still were parts of larger levels.
The way levels would connect within their units was also interesting. On a revisiting replay I’ve been really impressed with the backdoors and other few alternate paths leading into other levels.

>>8352529
Deviated from Quake 1's themes and formula.

>>8356835
Everyone played against Thresh even when he had issues, he would beat anyone with all types of handicap even up to Q3A.

>>8357921
trying tooo hard Alfo.

>>8360815
Q2 Engine was good to make "movies" too.
Something, SiN and other games took advantage and made it good with their cutscenes.

>>8356835
I'm well aware of him. Isn't he some sort of business entrepreneur these days?

>>8360641
Dm, TDM, freezetag, ctf, 3 way ctf, rocket arena 2, kots2000, vortex, rob the strogg (lol), jailbreak... and many more