/vr/ - Retro Games

Mario Odyssey is the worst.

>>8329180
Super Mario 64 is not a collectathon. Emphasizing certain elements of its design spawned the collectathon genre.

>>8329180
peaked with this

Collectathons are the JRPGification of platformers.

>>8329187
Suffers from way too many moons
>>8329208
Agreed, perfect pacing and game length

>>8329231
>>Suffers from way too many moons
>suffers from having too much content
Just find them all 4head

>>8329180ario 64 is literally a puzzle platformer

>>8329180
Most of the "collectathons" I play are not platformers, actually.

Are the LEGO games from Traveller's Tales collectathons?

>>8329305
Then they're not collectathons. A "belt scroller" needs more than scrolling to count as one.

Collectathons are definitely the weaker form of 3D platformers. There's games like Crash and Maximo that have actual challenge and games like Jack/Ratchet that have a proper sense of adventure. And then there is running around looking for widgets.

I'd say the best is the Banjo Series since those are at least charming.

Personally really like Spyro, but that's because I played it recently on my PSX and it managed to click. Not a fan of the OCD of it all, but at least Spyro does really well with the puzzle-like aspects blending in well. Banjo just seems miserable, personally.
>>833076
I'm biased since I grew up with so many 2D platformers though, and I'm glad collectathons exist for those who like them, but they don't seem like the proper evolution, rather just another fork in the road. Brother loves Ratchet and Clank, even the edgy ones, because the weapon variety was really fun.

>>8329330
Hell yeah

I don't really see stars as collectibles, they're just goals.
It's like when you explored a bit and found secret exits on the 2D Mario games.

>>8329283
No. you can try for years and never make this a thing. its incredibly forced.

>>8329208
based and ecopilled

>>8330869
Mario 64 is a strange example because collecting a star ends the level which doesn't suit collectathons at all, but all progression is still gated behind collection. I think of it as a strange artefact of it being super early 3D, the devs knew they couldn't pack as many levels in as they did for the 2d games so they compromised by remixing each level with different star goals, and had to gate them because if you could do the first star of every level in order the game would feel smaller even if it was the same size. The same principles were noticed and improved on by other games that became what we now know as a collectathon.

Kinda similar to crash in that they weren't pure collectathons but had collectathon elements out of necessity because of the hardware limitations they were working with.

>>8329228
Holy fuck

>>8329208
This is also one of the easiest collectathons to 100% there is. I remember watching the infamous Bonesaw 100% speedrun of the game and despite not using any glitches I know of, he 100%ed the game in 2 hours. And it's not like it was super expert playing, he actually fucked up constantly.

Generic answer but this is by far the worst. It’s funny because it has everything stacked for it. It’s got great graphics, music, tight controls, diverse gameplay, the world is full of life and you can tell they poured loads of time and effort into it, but it fails in the biggest possible manner in the gameplay department. It’s not fun to play. It’s the perfect example of ‘more does not mean better’. The whole thing would be eons more fun if they didn’t do stupid shit like limit bananas to each Kong or have massive sprawling levels that force you to constantly backtrack just to grab another stupid trinket to open another door to go to another area. I enjoyed myself playing this at first, and by the time I got to Fungi Forest I absolutely just couldn’t stand it any longer. Only powered through just to say yeah I’ve beaten it 100%. Best collectathon is probably fucking Jak and Daxter or some shit, I don’t know

>>8329180
Best that I've played is Spyro. Don't really have a worst because I never played a lot of these.
Maybe the Gex games on PS1, but I actually liked those too.
Modern day, SM Odyssey is godly.

>>8329180
traditional platformer:
>challenge based on skill
>need to git gud to get further
>every level visited just once
>can't beat level? only choice is to git gud
coomlectathons:
>challenge is in coomlecting
>just walk around every area for coomlectibles
>backtracking for more ""hidden"" coomlectibles
>can't beat level? just google and find where an item is
"thinking man's" my ass

>>8331378
Collecthons are a weak genre but your post is cringey as fuck. Can't you criticize something without resorting to meme-speak. You aren't even providing a real point of why the genre is bad, just stating you don't like it and describing what you do. You even bring up points that are outright wrong like implying that googling where gems in Spyro are is something people do.

If anything you just made people that don't like collectathons look like neurotic retards that are incapable of forming coherent sentences and probably never interact with other humans outside of 4chan shitposting.

>>8329180
Most collectathons have really garbage platforming.
Banjo-kazooie is the big example for this. No unsafe jumps, no punishment for poor movement, level design is incredibly flat.

>>8331296
The minigames are the worst part of dk64.

>>8331106
>but all progression is still gated behind collection
I mean sort of, "collect" isn't really a fitting word imo since Mario 64 has approximately one "collectible" in the whole game, the Star. Even coins can't be collected, they're just part of a Star in each level. I guess "collecting the coins" gets you a Star but I feel like people look back at Mario 64 and try to fit it into a collectathon box it doesn't really fit in. Some of its innovative game design concepts influenced collectathons, that's all in my opinion

>>8331546
Might as well call Zelda a collectathon since you need to collect triforce pieces/medalions/instruments/crystals or some other thing every fucking game.

>>8329187
Not retro, idiot.

>>8329305
I think the modern open world genre is pretty much a continuation of the collectathon. Tell me Breath of the Wild isn't a collectathon.

>>8331751
Maybe if you're an autist that zeroes on the the fact that sometimes you pick up items inbetween doing everything else.

>>8331378
In a well designed one, it's the thing that comes in-between entering the level and picking up the collectible that makes it fun. The collection aspect should be thought as an incentive to engage with the level design.

>>8331756
The core game mechanic is exploring the world to collect orbs. It's just a bigger Banjo Kazooie.

>>8331296
dk64 is only bad if you go for 100%. If you only collect just enough to beat the game you can avoid all the annoying shit

>>8329180
The holy triforce of 3D platformers
>Banjo Kazooie
>Jak and Daxter
>Super Mario 64

Nothing more, nothing less.

>>8331762
For sure. I've done the full complete run of DK64 and it was absolutely insane, not enjoyable at all. I did just a quick 100 golden banana play thru and it was highly enjoyable.

>>8331761
The design is borrowed from Far Cry. I guess that's a collectathon too. If you're an autistic fuck that zeroes on that you collect stuff while ignoring everything else then anything can be a collectathon. The whole point of a collectathon is that the stuff inbetween collecting has no substance.

>>8331783
>what are shrines?

>blocks you're path

>>8332201
>none of them are better than Super Mario 64
Impressive how hard Mario 64 stonewalled the 3D platformer genre for much of that generation by setting the bar so high

>>8332210
>none of them are better than Super Mario 64
All of them are

>>8331280
(and that's a good thing)

>8332227
>haha what if I implied well regarded game... actually BAD??? better make sure not to elaborate since then they'll realize i'm just shitposting for you's

>the ideal collectathon is pretty much a metroidvania focused even more on platforming.
>the collectibles should always require platforming skill plus moves and items that you collect, and ammo/upgrades.
>all moves/items should also be platforming focused or else it becomes zelda.
>each collectible item objective should be treated like the flagpoles in SMB, just requiring more moves and skill to get to as you progress.
>nonlinearity is another core feature as the game should be explorative. if its linear, then it is just a platformer. so collectibles should be obtainable out of order in many cases but also unlock areas.
>ideally different areas can be unlocked depending on the order you collect. for example you collect enough stars to unlock one of 2 doors. once one is chosen the other will not have enough stars available from previous levels to unlock so you must collect them from the newly opened door.
>story context is optional but welcome since you're getting to know the setting.

Honestly neither Spyro nor Mario 64 suffer because of this cause they're such a joy to control, and you get open, atmospheric spaces to play around with those controls. The things you do might be mundane but even moving around is fun, so who cares. And even then, there are challenging gauntlets in both games, it's not like it's all wandering around walking into things. Jak 1 and Ratchet 1 too, even if most of the fun in Ratchet comes from the awesome weapons. Banjo on the other hand has charm in spades but every move you do feels like shifting a gear, every interaction like pressing a button. It's weird, never liked them as much as other 3D platformers. Have to replay them, might click more with me.

>>8330768
>mentioning Maximo
Omega good taste, those games are not only awesome but underrated as fuck. I like Mario 64 cause of the control depth, but something like Maximo scratches my action game itch like no other 3D platformer, even if the mechanics aren't as deep. I still consider them the best 3D Castlevanias, since they're not really that much like a GnG.

This game has linear levels but is 99% a collectathon, which I think is the ideal direction to take pacman.
It could be even better if it had true collection based progression, and with the levels still in this hallways/crash style, just in big labyrinths instead of A to B.

>collect crystals as a pure formality just to prove you made it to the end of the level, absolutely no challenge involved in finding or collecting the crystal
>they probably only put this in to justify why you could do each warp room's levels in any order
>make it possible to destroy the crystal by spinning into it, forcing you to die or restart

what did they mean by this?

>>8329180
>collecting
>thinking

>>8332227
Shit take coming through.

GOAT

Mario 64 isn't even really a collectathon, no more than you "collect" keys/locks and goalposts in SMW. Hell, Yoshi's Island could easily be considered more collection-oriented than SM64. The stars are just the logical conversion of goalposts to a 3D space.

When I think of collectathon, I'm thinking of Banjo and DK64

>>8333987
Can't tell you how many times I've had to replay levels in Crash 2 because I forgot to touch the stupid fucking crystal before the exit like a total dumbass

>>8329208
>>8329231
>>8331280
Jak and Daxter is great but I it does seem too short. The first village has 4 levels, the second has 3, the third has 2 and the last just leads into Gol and Maia's citadel. most people could 100% it within 4 hours.

>>8329283
Mario has always contained puzzles.

>>8331456
Rare had zero clue how to make 3d platformers.

Why does every game have to be batshit hard to a lot of fuckers, anyway?
The 3D Mario games are fun because they're more laid back. Sometimes people don't wanna play Ninja Gaiden.

>>8334559
If want to play a bunch of platformers that have no challenge go play the indie games. They also come with "comfy" aestetics to appeal to low test players and some inspiring tranny protagonists.

>>8334935
You seem like a fun dude to hang around with. Can't you just not be a fag?

>>8334945
If your feelings are hurt by what he said it's probably the truth.

>>8332229
What?

>>8331762
Exactly, people forget that for most people back then the goal of 100% in games like this wasn't even considered until the game was beaten

Collect-a-thons are never good unless you get a reward for doing so

I hated the change to these in tooie. The reason was the worlds were too big for notes to be fun and that they'd be too spread out and hard to find, but I think putting notes to guide you and look for while running around so slowly would've helped the game.
Unironically should've done the exact opposite of what they did and instead upped the amount from 100 to 1000 in each world. Just dont make us recollect them each time (although putting transparent ones where they've been collected would be welcome).

Also, if they ever make a new game, they should steal the treble clefs from mario galaxy/odyssey alongside permanent notes.

>>8337049
>Unironically should've done the exact opposite of what they did and instead upped the amount from 100 to 1000 in each world.
dear god no! should've said 200 or 250.

>>8334950
>If your feelings are hurt by what he said
That's what you'd love to believe, isn't it?

my three favorites:
1. Jak and Daxter
2. Banjo Tooie
3. Mario 64

>>8338272
>filtered by the 8000+ notes to collect in AU tooie
git gud

>>8331280
>This is also one of the easiest collectathons to 100% there is. I remember watching the infamous Bonesaw 100% speedrun of the game
Do these people who speedrun already know where everything is?

>>8329180
>best
i started playing Spyro 2 the other day and i have to say, it's one of the best game of it's genre on that generation, even beating Mario 64 and Banjo
>worst
Bugs bunny lost in time
idk man i liked it as a kid and tried to play it again for nostalgia but couldn't even finish the second world because of how boring it was

>>8331762
Fuck off DK64 is the most satisfying 101% of any collectathon

>>8338662
Sell me on it

>>8329208
Above 90% of 3d platformers by actually having some good movement

The best collecathons are the ones that consider 100% to be bonus content. Ones that are geared up for everything to. be collected on every playthrough are generally more tedious. It's part of the reason ones like DK64 get criticised so much, most youtubers and internet critics who talk about them tend to be collectathon autists who want to 100% every file they start, when really the design is more that kids can play through to the end credits, then a few months later can come back to the same file and have another 10 or so hours of original gameplay on the same file.

>>8338802
>The best collecathons are the ones that consider 100% to be bonus content.
This is why SM64 is so based, 70/120 Stars is perfect.

>>8334935
He's right though, a platformer doesn't need to be hard to be fun. Good and fun movement matters first and foremost.

>>8338667
It's just so satisfying that "all coming together" feeling you get when you're at the last part of a level and the last remaining collectibles are gotten at once, the last big banana, the last blueprint, the last banana balloon, (usually in one area if you've got a route that makes sense and aren't just walking back and forth aimlessly), getting them and hearing the Kongo drums beating and the monkey screeches congratulating you for picking up the 100th banana, it's so satisfying. I play the game with each kong individually each with their own unique routes in the level, and each playthrough ends with that "all-coming-together" feeling. And of course it's satisfying to see not just 100% but 101% on the main menu.

>>8338872
102% isnt worth it huh?

>>8338893
102% is accessing the secret testing room, but there's nothing really to do there. Kinda cool tho

have things like skill trees and maxing out meters/progress bars replaced collectathons in modern gaming?

>>8339016
no retard those are rpg concepts

>>8339018
I know where they come from you clown. I'm asking if they've replaced the trad collectathon as game functions that fill the same void of wanting to 'complete' a thing by coming over it. Apply some basic reading comprehension before you reply.

>>8329180
Ape Escape is the only one I've ever really enjoyed.

>>8339027
>I'm asking if they've replaced the trad collectathon as game functions that fill the same void of wanting to 'complete' a thing by coming over it.
collectathon is a genre not an overarching game design concept
what are you fucking retarded dude?

>>8339027
Completionism is not exclusive to collectathons, any genre can theoretically have that as a mechanic. So it's not a replacement of the collectathon in particular.

>>8329283
Going to be genuinely honest here, I've never managed to do the chest star without trial and error. Did the game ever hint at a pattern of some kind?

>>8339238
you're pretty much supposed to do any of those with trial and error provided you don't just figure it out the first time, and remember it from then on if you're coming back later. i don't really think the game hints at it other than shocking you.

granted though, they're usually in an easy to remember pattern; i like to remember them by which direction i walk to the next chest

>>8331296
Best collectathon is Banjo Kazooie for being the complete opposite of DK64. Relatively small worlds, no back tracking, worlds designed to be 100% on your first run.

>>8329180
>Cuckoldry: the thinking man's pornography

>>8329231
>Too many moons
Hard disagree. Nintendo learned the 1up lessons. It was somewhat fun at first getting all these 1ups in 3D Land, but it got old when you started getting 700+ of them by the end of it
So, uh, why not actually make these 1ups being actual substantial collectibles?
And there we have it, Odyssey

>>8333954
patrician taste my friend, pac man world 2 is a masterpiece.

>>8337049
>>8338272
200 is too much, just look at yooka laylee
condensing notes in tooie was the wrong idea though. literally only 17 notes per world made it feels empty

>>8334485
but they had great sound design

>>8331456
Why do try hards want to be punished so badly? Get a dominatrix already

>>8340553
If there is no challenge there's no depth.

>>8340801
But he's just wrong. There are falls that kill you, especially in rusty bucket bay or in the sky world in the sequel. There are precision platforms that you can fuck up like in click clock woods. The game punishes you by resetting your notes if you die. But besides that, even if you played it perfectly and never died, the game is still fun. Just screams try hard behavior complaining about this.

>>8340801
Play Kirby's Epic Yarn

>>8340809
muh flat level design

>>8340809
You can find a few challenging moments here or there. They are not very common and even at their worst are not very intense or long. And it's not liki e t hff the game doesn't give you so many easy collectables to meet your quota.

Banjo has a charming world but now that we are not kids playing our first 3d game the lack of challenge is a major strike. It doesn't need to be crash or maximo level but come on.

>>8340909
>now that we are not kids playing our first 3d game the lack of challenge is a major strike
Not really, I don't feel the need for every game I play to rock my shit. Games can just be something fun you play to pass time and that's okay.

>>8329228
>>8329283
>>8330768
>>8331751
>>8332291
>>8333954
>>8339016
>Collectathons are the JRPGification of platformers.
>Mario 64 is literally a puzzle platformer
>Collectathons are definitely the weaker form of 3D platformers.
>I think the modern open world genre is pretty much a continuation of the collectathon
>the ideal collectathon is pretty much a metroidvania
>This game has linear levels but is 99% a collectathon, which I think is the ideal direction to take pacman.
>have things like skill trees and maxing out meters/progress bars replaced collectathons in modern gaming?
Some of you have kernels of truth in your statements but just for shits & giggles, see: >>8331783
>If you're an autistic fuck that zeroes on that you collect stuff while ignoring everything else then anything can be a collectathon.

>>8329180
I don't really consider SM64 a collectathon but it is very good. I also really like ROM hacks. I think some of the Star Revenge games like 6.25 and 3.5 that let you stay in the level after collecting a star fit the collectathon label more

/thread

>>8334559
Your dopamine receptors get fried once you've played a large number of games. In order to enter a flow state, the task at hand can never be too easy or too difficult to accomplish. This is why most experienced gamers will move on to increasingly difficult games.

>>8332291
>if its linear, then it is just a platformer. so collectibles should be obtainable out of order in many cases but also unlock areas.
This is why pure platformers will always be the best genre. No padded bullshit getting in the way of fun gameplay. You might as well play pinball as play a metroidvania or collectathon.

The Sega Saturn port of Croc is so...incomprehensible to me. Not really because of the game itself, Croc is a solid fun platformer...but it shipped like THIS. A chunk of American Versions and EVERY PAL version have this glitch. How the fuck?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq78WwiPJGQ

>>8343636
>How the fuck?
>>Sega Saturn
Hmm...

>>8343045
>Collectathon which shows you during a cutscene that you can never 100% it
I went back to this game once to get the last 5 or so lums in the final level, and forgot to access the L button menu when I was able to again in the final batlle. There was no change to the ending.
Does getting all of the lums change ANYTHING?

>>8340909
as an adult i find kazooie harder than tooie just because i barely played kazooie as a kid and have little to no knowledge of the game.

>>8344025
I can't even imagine being more familiar with Tooie than Kazooie

>>8342520
>ultra-realistic edgy internet in 2011 render of video game character is acceptable

>>8344050
Tooie is slightly more complex and is a true sequel because it builds on the mechanics and world of kazooie. Also had a lot of fun in the mini games with my brother which kazooie didnt have. I wasnt allowed to play shooters so i was pretty excited to run around shooting eggs at each other. Some of those arenas were really great.

>>8344010
You can get the 1000th lum once you have the other 999, it's in the cave of bad dreams which makes sense when you think about it

>>8344052
more acceptable than the furfag shit in the center pic, yes.

>>8343045
Interesting game in that it was a borderline collectathon but not really. Goal was mostly making it to the end of the level with a little collection gating, levels were more or less linear and not exploration based. I feel like this one was ahead of its time in that it was full of cinematic setpieces (the spider attack, the ship chases etc) that foreshadowed a lot of Gen 7 game design.

>>8329208
This and Rayman 2 were the only ones who ever did it right