/vr/ - Retro Games

>>8088254
It went downhill fast.

fuckin idiots
was it so hard to just make a 2.5d sonic game with the level design and music everyone loves and cuh razy effects and shit
instead they wasted ttime on this shit and whatever the hell sonic adventures and sonic 06 are
the fucks wrong with these japanese people

same with the metroid 64 shit

>>8088260
You try developing a game for those consoles, tell us how easy it is.

>>8088260
>the fucks wrong with these japanese people
It was being made by a western development team, not Japanese. They had trouble programming it and the poor performance is ultimately what caused all of the problems. It's really just a highlight of all the reasons why western game developers suck, but everything is turned up to 10.

Thankfully after the failure of that team, Sega shifted Sonic back to the Japanese team and a lot of the ideas from this game went into Sonic Adventure. It would have been cool to see this take on Sonic but let's just be real it wasn't meant to be.

>>8088254
that's what happens when your management is retarded and repeatedly sets you up to fail

>>8088260
A 2.5D game was going to eat shit in this time period, especially next to Mario 64 and Crash.
in contrast, SA1 was treated as the second coming of Christ at launch before people started focusing on all of the flaws like 4 years later

>>8088280
>let's see YOU do better
not an argument

>>8088280
Sonic Xtreme truly was a clusterfuck of a project. The lead programmer spent all his time developing his engine for PC thinking he could just recompile it for Saturn and it would just work. Needless to say when they did that they realize that engine couldn't even get single digit frame rates on Saturn.

POV software eventually did get the Fisheye engine running on Saturn at a decent frame rate without the fisheye effect, but apparently the team at STi got pissy about this and refused to use it. The screenshot here >>8088254 is actually from Chris Coffin's Boss engine after they were told to by Sega of Japan to scrap the fisheye engine entirely.

Wait I'm confused, how did they almost die?

>>8088304
Stress, burnout, overworking...

>>8088289
>Crash
Crash is literally a 2.5D game.

>>8088260
Easy to say with hindsight. Another 2D Sonic game would be laughed by everybody in 1996.

>>8088287
End yourself weeb.

>>8088314
imagine simping for people who couldn't even make a sonic game

>>8088260
>was it so hard to make a 2.5d game
I would think so with Tomb raider and Mario 64 being hot at the time but at the same time they released fucking Nights so who knows what the hell Sega were thinking.

>>8088310
nothing makes you look dumber than "correcting" someone who was right in the first place

>>8088256
>Downhill Zone

>>8088329
Crash is literally a 2D game with 3D graphics.

If only a certain butthole hadn't been a butthole about baka gaijin using his engine.

>>8088312
People were pretty easily impressed at the time. Make a game that's two thirds 2D, but occasionally you run down a tunnel. No one's going to call you out for making 3D games wrong, because that's literally Crash Bandicoot.

>>8088297
>but apparently the team at STi got pissy about this and refused to use it
>The executive was unimpressed by Senn and Alon's work, as the version he saw, ported from PC to Saturn by the third party, ran at a poor frame rate. Senn and Alon attempted to show their most recent PC version, but the visitor left before they had the opportunity.

>>8088339
The development of the game was disaster after disaster since the very beginning.

>>8088335
It literally is played in 3-dimensions

Ohhh I see, was it really that bad?

>>8088342
They were right to leave. Sega fucked up royally allowing Sonic to be handled by clowns. See the jank euro boys who made 3d blast.

>>8088310
Like, in Crash 1, environments and gameplay are fully 3D: you move around on all three axes, and the only thing I could vaguely think of to support your statement is the very rigid camera.
Even the segments presented as side-scrolling in Crash retain full 3D motion, and seamlessly transition to into/away from the screen gameplay because the only thing making them side scrolling is laying the levels out horizontally in relation to the camera in a 3D space.
Contrast something like Klonoa or Strider 2, which firmly fit as 2.5D -- Klonoa has basically no movement on its third axis even though the levels move in and around the third axis, like a set of twisting rails that you can go along, and Strider 2 is a 2D game period that uses 3D models for its visuals.

>>8088342
>The executive was unimpressed by Senn and Alon's work, as the version he saw, ported from PC to Saturn by the third party, ran at a poor frame rate. Senn and Alon attempted to show their most recent PC version, but the visitor left before they had the opportunity.

That was after the POV drama. Point of View software was a company that had experience working with the Saturn that Sega brought in to try and get the engine up to par on the Saturn. The latest build we have of their work is this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osHoP_emOoU

Apparently the STi people were really upset that POV was brought in and kept trying to work on their fisheye engine which is eventually what they showed to Sega of Japan's execs. That got shot down and they were then told told to use Chris Coffin's boss engine instead.

>>8088340
Castlevania: SOTN did the whole 2d with 3d effects and people bashed that game for being "outdated". People were really 3D hungry.

>>8088348
>Walk down hallway from left to right
>Run down corridor from back to front while something follows you
WOW ITS 3D

>>8088356
Why are you explaining this? No one who played Crash would call it 2.5d.

>>8088356
Parts of the game are outright 2D, but most of it is just kind of superficially 3D. because you're always running down these narrow pathways where you can walk left and right, just a little. It's not like Mario, or Spyro, or even Rayman 2, where the use of 3D space is really something that factors into level design.
I wouldn't call it 2.5D though. That's a very specific thing.

>>8088362
3D graphics, mostly. A lot of people still didn't really get what 3D gameplay was. I mean, ff7 is arguably not even a 3D game.

>>8088260
>metroid 64
" I had no idea how Samus could control with an n64 controller.'

NIGGA THERES A DPAD AND 6 BUTTONS RIGHT FUCKING THERE
What are you!?!? STUPID???

>>8088392
This is the man who insisted Other M be made the way it was made. Yes, he's an idiot when it comes to this area.

>>8088254
would the saturn have been better off if it just committed to high quality 2d games?
was it at least better at 2d than the ps1

>>8088410
so what, did they just accidentally make a game that people liked? it feels like all these japanese devs are totally boneheaded and stubborn. at least when a western game stumbles the devs will be honest and not double down on mistakes

>>8088392
>>8088410
>>8088417
Give Metroid to Retro
Give Donkey Kong to Rare
Give Zelda to Capcom

Nintendo should have just done this to be honest

>>8088417
I think Sakamoto is one of those developers who never really understood how to develop for anything past the Super Nintendo. If it's not a SNES controller, or something close enough to, like a GBA, he just turns into a gibbering imbecile.

>>8088421
Retro didn't exist in the N64 era. Those people were making Turok games.

>>8088368
Goddamn you're either stupid or trolling

>>8088329
>2d gameplay or movement

>>8088335
Yeah, crash has 3d rendering and 3d movement, but the gameplay is essentially 2d. Why are you being so contrarian about the OP's use of '2.5' when it's fucking obvious what he means and your own "proof" shows this loosely defined term applies to 2d type gameplay. Hopeless.

>it's artificial 3d!!!!!

>pretending not to know what people mean when they say Crash Bandicoot is basically 2D
Look at this level.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrKUmx0Ngx0
I mean, come on. No one's criticizing your favorite game. It's okay.

>>8088469
>criticizing a ps1 game on /vr/
dont bother, praise is the only acceptable thing you can do here

>>8088474
I'm not even criticizing it. That's literally what I like about it.

>>8088469
yes, i know what he was getting at. crash barely uses the third dimension, but it's still 3D, not 2.5D.
if he'd said "resident evil 4 is literally an FPS." would you have defended him? you'd know why he said it, but it's still obviously wrong

>>8088580
I think it's better to get at the essence of what a person is saying than to gripe about semantics.

>>8088410
He also forgot the Gravity Suit even existed during Other M development.

>>8088312
And yet how many Pokémon games just kept using the same basoc game over and over again?

>>8088348
It's also not fun compared to Mario 64 or Sonic Adventure.

>>8088335
This statement contradicts itself.

>>8088368
That's correct, though.

>>8088314
>weeb
Join the 41%, faggot.

>>8088607
>I think it's better to get at the essence of what a person is saying than to gripe about semantics.
Unfortunately, most of the morons posting here do not share that perspective.

>>8088314
>weeb
>on a weeb website
You don't say.

>>8088294
but your baseless bitching is?

>>8088348

>>8088254
More like Sonic Xcrement.

>>8088412
It had excellent 2D capability, but when you had really good developers at the helm it had 3D that arguably rivaled PS1 as well. Look at stuff like Virtua Fighter 2 for a good example, Burning Rangers and Deep Fear looked really slick as well. Shining Force III was a JRPG so it's not really intense 3D, but the battles in that game are spectacular. It's just a shame it was a nightmare to program for apparently.
I think they could have really made a go of the combined 2D and 3D effects that were used in games like Shinrei;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHeek-aZBK0

>>8088386
hmm the world map was fully 3d. yeah in the town's you're running on a pre-rendered backdrop, but the illusion of 3d was enough back then.

Chris Senn finally got to make a sonic game years later...and it was Sonic Boom and it was awful. so bad he wasn't asked back for the sequel. We dodged a bullet. this wouldn've been Sonic's Bubsy 3D

If we got a game based around Sonic R it'd already have been better. sonic R did a good job with doing Sonic's speed in 3D.

>>8088254
And one of the stupidest ideas ever conceived (no, it wasn't innovative for the time).

It's akin to digging the foundation for a house and then trying to pour the cement in only to realize the foundation is too small for the amount of cement you have.

>>8088438
>Yeah, crash has 3d rendering and 3d movement, but the gameplay is essentially 2d.
The only thing vaguely 2D about it is the fixed camera. Actual 2D.5 games dont have 3D movement.

>>8088362
Sotn was a massive success

>>8088287
>sonic adventure was the upside to this

So it was that bad, huh?

>>8088254
Sonic Xtreme should have been a 2D game like X-men vs Street Fighter, and Megaman X4.

>>8088321
>Sega
>thinking

>>8090671
SOTN became a success through word of mouth. When it first released sales were poor due to bad marketing.

>>8088376
It's hallway design, let's call it what it is. It's the missing link between mario and uncharted.

>>8090707
And?

>>8090703
At least Sega managed to last longer than Atari did as a hardware maker, that's for sure.

>>8088260
In 5th gen there was so much pressure to take 2d series that worked perfectly fine and perfectly reinvent them into 3d, despite experimental control and limited 3d ability. As well made as Mario 64 was, a 2.5d Sonic would have been as much of a disaster as a shitty 3d attempt at Sonic. Sonic Adventure isn't aging well, but in the late 90s it reasonably met the commercial and critical demands of a Sonic game in 3d. Saturn was hurt by a lack of a Sonic game but in the long term the Sonic IP was spared by not attempting a slow and clunky 5th gen game

>>8089165
Every video game is 2d

>>8090753
Just barely, and as time goes on atari has the bigger footprint in history. Sega squandered their reputation. Atari defines the home console market before the NES. Sega at their peak was just their competitor.

>>8090785
Sega made and still makes games that have a lot of fans. Who actually plays Atari games these days, apart from as a kind of curiosity?

>>8090750
SOTN only sold 1.27 million which was good for a 2D game but poor compared to the big 3d games at the time. Another 2D Sonic game on the Saturn no less wouldn't have been a big system seller.

>>8090795
I honestly can't believe Atari collections are still being made today

>>8090803
All I can imagine is they make enough money off that audience of people who go "hey, Atari", and then play the games for about five minutes.

>>8088254
Sonic, Ramiel is sneaking up on you! Watch ooooout!

>>8088417
>>8088423
Never forget that Gunpei Yokoi was there too, on top of who knows what kind of talent. A great flaw in these games is fans assuming that one guy was the sole reason for its success. It's some primate thing we have in our brains, I swear, like people who suck Miyamoto's dick yet don't know who Tezuka or Koizumi are at all. That kind of person is the reason that kickstarters created by one person with a rep get to be overhyped disappointments.

Crash bandicoot is very linear, but it is not 2.5D
You are not locked to an axis

>>8090986
thats irrelevant to the conversation dude

Did it turn Chris Coffin into a tranny?

>>8091078
i'm fairly certain yokoi was the guy who actually got metroid, and the series died with him

>>8093239
Yokoi is the only person who has ever understood that kind of exploratory action thing that is or was Metroid. This includes all games made after him even by Indies and Konami
His death is the most insane dark comedy in the world

>>8093256
>T.doomer sack of refuse

>>8093623
tell me why I should pretend to like hollow knight again

>>8093256
Absolute rubbish take. The big names aren't what makes the games what they are. Also Metroid isn't liked or understood by japan as a whole, but we're not talking about that in this thread.

>>8093626
You don't need to like Hollow Knight, anon. Go on your way to whatever other thread you wish.

>>8093668
>Kicking me out of my favorite genre
Stop. Come on. Be a human.

>>8088260
3D was the fancy new thing at the time. 2D games were seen as outdated

>>8088254
You ever work on a job you just don't give a shit about? Be it retail or office work and you gotta do some real tedious shit and don't care when it gets done cuz you're getting paid either way? That's what happened with Xtreme.

>>8093712
I've never had a job

>>8088287
Wow, imagine knowing this little about this games development. They were forced to repeatedly start over by SOJ you retard. Sega had no interest in making a sonic game and intentionally sabotaged it for Nights. SOJ wanted fucking nights to be Segas mascot

>>8093712
Not really. The sad thing is they really cared but were incompetent and unprepared. There’s a reason x-tremendous has people interested and not the dozens of post 06 titles besides Mania.

>>8088254
sonic x-treme doesn't get enough hate. it's where everything went wrong. adventure is a salvage by comparison to this catastrophe. it should have been so easy without any gimmicks

>>8093739
>SOJ wanted fucking nights to be Segas mascot
That's so very sad and embarrassing in hindsight.

>>8093712
>>8093743
The team literally almost killed themselves to try and complete this hopeless project, they were that dedicated to it.

How dense do you have to be to think that developers AND publishers AND audiences wanted to do 2D in the era where technology was becoming more open. Nigger, Sonic 3 was originally envisioned as being fully 3D but the tech wasn&apos;t there in 1993. Granted, the tech of the Shiturn, wasn&apos;t amazing either, which is why the platform barely had any 3D. In the Dreamcast era, it would be unnacceptable to not make 3D Sonic, because it would make you look like you&apos;re 1. Increasingly irrelevent 2. Bad devs 3. Getting destroyed by the competition.<br>
<br>
Go ahead make a cute reply saying you always hated 3D or it aged badly or some other tone deaf nonsense. You don&apos;t know what it&apos;s like to be a dev. You don&apos;t even have the brain to understand that early 3D walked so later games could run. NOBODY wants a stagnant indrusty besides actual autists looking back retrospectively.<br>
<br>
I don&apos;t think any 2D rehashes of existing games were best-sellers in the 3D era, outside of Yoshi&apos;s Story, which is garbage, and a bitch move by Nintendo. Unless you&apos;re couting JRPGs as 2D and rehashes, which is honestly a pathetic and pedantic place for your arguement to die on a hill.

>>8096514
Nah, wrong

>>8088254
This demo predated the incident with programmer's health, in fact pretty sure it predates the whole fisheye camera concept.

>1994
Early Sonic Crackers 32X experiment
>1995
Saturn alpha demo running on boss fight engine.
>1996
Fisheye builds seen at E3, failed negotiation to borrow Nights engine, devs forced to scrap fisheye build and switch to older 3D boss engine for the whole game.
>Christmas 1996
Devs almost die of fucking pneumonia or something.
>New Years 1997
Bernie shitcans Sonic Xtreme since it failed to meet Christmas and he knew the Saturn couldn't be saved at that point, Sonic Adventure starts development just a few months later.

>oh help we almost die from working 17 hour day and sleep in office
no that's 'cause you're Americans. Japanese programmer do this all the time and don't whine about it.

>>8093712
I have, mainly because of stuff like this getting thrown out immediately by shitty management. There was a project that was in development long before I started this one job I had, was meant to release before I started there, and finally released three years after I started.... only to get shut down a week after deployment. Dummy IT director called that move "a huge win" on our part.

>>8096559
Wow! Sounds like living a dream! Japanese people are so fucking smart.

>>8096559
but they do die from it. the government has had to step in because it's an epidemic

SAHNIQUE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_t-g5tOuS6o

What if x-treme came out and it looked like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s_a3qZYkOg

>>8096872
Those Nights stages look cool but Dooom engine was not designed for platforming IMO. Plus no loops.

It's hilarious to me that the producers and developers at Sega Japan presumably saw and played Sonic R for months and thought it was good enough to release.

It's fascinating and difficult to decide which is more embarrassing between Nights and Sonic R as a system mascot/seller

>>8096934
>It's fascinating and difficult to decide which is more embarrassing between Nights and Sonic R as a system mascot/seller
Bug.

>>8088692
Allegedly he saw footage of a cutscene with Samus wearing the gravity suit and complained that she looked silly wearing purple and told them to change it to a glowing light instead. Fucking baffling.

>>8089187
The thing about the Saturn wasn't that it couldn't do 3D well, but that it was difficult to develop 3D on it. Once you got over the hurdles and had the system figured out you could certainly make a good looking game, it's just that a lot of third-party devs were either unable or unwilling to get it working when they could have just made a PS1 or 64 game instead..

>>8096895
>Dooom engine was not designed for platforming IMO

The engine is perfectly capable of it, but the default player physics settings are horrendous for it. This game is clearly a drastic overhaul of absolutely everything, so I wouldn't judge it base on what a nightmare platforming is in your average doom mod.

>>8096872
SRB2 is the best transfer of genesis sonic into 3D, probably because it was started before sonic adventure was even a pipe dream
it's awkward at times, and the camera is obnoxious to work with, but it's exactly what sega should aim for

>>8097002
Bug! is a great game

>>8096872
There's a mod that puts the Xstreme version of Sonic in the game. It's pretty cool.
https://mb.srb2.org/threads/xtreme-sonic-the-most-xtreme-pk3-out-there-v-1-4-1.28110/

>>8096559
I thought I remember hearing how some Japanese guys were surprised at Western work culture when they visited Rare's offices and they were like "Sorry m8, I put in my 8 hours for the day. Time to head off to the pub. See ya."

>>8096872
This and Sonic Mania are best looks of what Sonic Saturn should've have been.

Well guys, I think one thing we can ALL agree on, is that sonic is extremely gay, regardless of 2d/3d, the system, etc.

>>8097679
i'm a sonic fan and i agree

>>8088254
>ninpen manmaru penguin (1997)

Why does this game look way more impressive than any of Sega's official attempts to make a sonic game? It has great draw distance and graphics for the Saturn. They could have at least used this engine to make something.

>>8097739
Sega let the devs use the NiGHTS engine to make that game.

>>8088254
Why? Naka. Racism is bad

>>8088260
There wasn't enough time. Mario 64 and Crash 1 (technically) wasn't 2.5D, at the mtime these were fully 3d titles to people. Kirby 64 likely would be the only game to be seen as "not as 3D" by coparision, but would Sonic work if he tried to do that?

Imo they should have just teamed up with Traveler's Tales and just said fuck it and "copy" the Naka engine to remake Xtreme with the direction of 3D Blast. Had 3D blast had a better field of view, with R like level structure mixed in, and the game would have been passible for the time before SA1 happened. Letting the Japs gatekeep who can use Sonic is why the series is trash to this day. The best content was when they were forced to work together, the worse shit is all Jap only, like CD (fuck you gameplay is dogshit, Knuckles Chaotix, 06, etc etc. While the US infused games were the better games like S2, S3K and SA2.

>>8097753
>the worse shit is all Jap only, like CD (fuck you gameplay is dogshit, Knuckles Chaotix, 06, etc etc
but Sonic 1 had no involvement with americans and that's still the best Sonic game of all time.

>>8089165
>2D assets
A 3D game is defined by "majority. If you see 3D models everywhere, move in 3D more than 50% of the time, AREN'T locked to a path that only lets you go up down left right for more than 50% of the gameplay, it's fucking 3D. It's not JUST the gameplay because execs never classified the term as such. If it "feels 3D" it is 3D. But we've come to terms that a game that uses more 3D assets than 2D ones already keeps it out of true 2D, so now you have to either stick to 2.5D or 3D with hallways. Crash is 3D with hallways, he was NEVER locked to a path, unlike Klonoa or Kirby 64. And games like your pic or Starfox SNES are NOT 3D games, they are 2D with projected/illusioned 3D effects. It's just a 2D spite with a visual to look 3D. You're not moving forward, you're just static with left and right movements, like in Sonic 2's special stages.

This isn't up for debate, Sonicfags have used this same shitpost to call boost titles 2D games when they aren't anything like the classics or advance or even fucking Rush, which is firmly 2.5D (which is only because of Sonic's model being 3D, otherwise it's still basically 2D completely) and it needs to fucking stop. People don't fucking get video game design, and it's tiresome seeing people think they do.

>>8093739
>Wanting a gay twink to be SEGA's mascot
Why are Japs like this? They needed not 3 nukes, but 4.

>>8097751
Then why didn't they use NiGHTS to make a Sonic game!? It's probably the best 3D engine for the Saturn.

>>8096559
>and don't whine about it.
Yeah, they just die off like fucking faggots.

>>8097807
they did, but by the time development on it started it was deemed that the Saturd was not our future so it got shifted to the Dreamcast instead.

>>8097807
Naka didn't wanted to make a Sonic game anymore, and aan when the Westerners tried to do it for him he threatened SEGA he would rage quit if they let them use it.

>>8097856
WOW, WTF did the NA did even do to him?

>>8097860
It's called "Jap pride". All Japs are xenophopic with the west, but SEGA let it kill them off in the process of it. Boom was sabotaged by SoJ. Mania was gatekeeped from getting a sequel because they wanted more control over it when Taxman didn't. They also didn't think Mania would beat Forces in sells but it did. every example of good for Sonic outside of Japland has always been shuned on by the Japs.

>>8097801
amen, retards btfo

>>8097801
>And games like your pic or Starfox SNES are NOT 3D games, they are 2D with projected/illusioned 3D effects. It's just a 2D spite with a visual to look 3D.
I'm too lazy to touch the rest of the post, but this bit is just baffling.
Starfox on SNES doesn't have any illusion of 3D, it draws polygons and textures (only a rare few surfaces are textured, but that's for performance) and has the camera and all object calculations in three dimensions.
I have no idea why you'd bring it up there in that context.

>>8097957
Well I was thinking of mode 7 and mis remembered that game technically did use what is typically "3D programming" despite how shit it ran. So think of F-Zero instead.

>>8097002
If we're judging Bug! by 1995 standards it's not that bad. You can tell the devs vaugely understood gameplay, and ways to make gameplay interesting using new tech. It's probably like a 7/10 on a good day in 1995 or 6. Not bad, just weird, old, and a curiosity. Some people may even like it for that reason.

The part that's really funny about Bug! is the fact that it's the utter definition of a stupid-looking scotformer. Nothing about the art, music, or style is good in the slighest, compared to a Mario, a Donkey Kong, and, obviously, a Sonic. The fact they used the word "bitchy" on the box for something so lame? It's hilarious and really sums up the lack of style and appeal the game has. Not saying that Sonic is impossible to stop because games in the PS1 era obviously succeeded.

Sonic is Sonic. NiGHTS is no Sonic. Bug! is no Sonic. For the record, I'm glad that we never got a Sonic in the Mars style. It's meant to be momentum-based platforming with good framerate and freedom. The tech wasn't there yet.

>>8088304
Pneumonia

>>8097860
>>8097862
Its also that Naka isn't very good and he was probably worried that if they could make Sonic games without him he'd no longer be a superstar there. Lucky for him they were incompetent anyway but an American team being able to run Sega's flagship title must've been an embarrassing proposition to him.

Aww look, Sega of America are making a game all by themselves without Japan. Isn't that really cute, guys? This can go on the fridge with the other baby pictures.

>>8098304
God, the camera in that game gives me a headache. Fuck all of those games that shift the camera every time you change direction. It also follows along oddly with your vertical position.

>>8098304
SoULLL

>>8097862
>All Japs are xenophopic with the west
Maybe they used to be, but that's clearly not showing to be the case in recent years.

>>8098445
japanese are too self aware and now all modern japanese games have to flaunt
>LOOK HOW JAPANESE WE ARE, AREN'T WE WEIRD GAIJIN? HAHA CRAZY JAPAN

fuck i hate modern games

>>8098446
>LOOK HOW JAPANESE WE ARE, AREN'T WE WEIRD GAIJIN? HAHA CRAZY JAPAN
Name 5

>>8098480
No dude, fuck off.

>>8098445
>>8098446
We're getting way too deep into retarded meme territory right now. You obviously have very low observational skills if you think there wasn't *always* a Westaboo element in tons of Japanese games, which was arguably *stronger* in the past. A lot of old games in Japan today are viewed as weird old shit with lots of English text in them by younger people. All those games like Mario, Sonic, Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, Resident Evil, etc were basically all made by geeks outside of the normal society who wanted to create something that looked Western. It's not really an exagerration to imply that the game industry in the East was pioneered by Westaboos and the majority of the best games were made by them. It's especially strange that you're using Sonic the Hedgehog to prove this point as well.

>>8088368
Still is, because you also can jump and move sideways in a corridor.

That's just like saying as if Pacman World is a 2D platformer.

>>8098517
Sonic 2's special stages are 3d platforming confirmed

>>8088260
If only they had decided to copy Doom's engine and make a sonic game with it...

But then people would complain about the lack of shuttle loops I guess

>>8096872
This with left-right camera controls on shoulder pads and Sonic Generations controls makes this the perfect 3D momentum platformer

>>8088260
>was it so hard to just make a 2.5d sonic game
Well, yeah, it was.

>>8098512
Not all Japanese devs were Westaboos but many of the biggest ones like Capcom definitely were.

>>8099096
looks like ass

>>8099096
>f only they had decided to copy Doom's
Japs don't care about western games, expeically during the 90s anon. Naka bashed on of one the devs that later went over to work on Jak and Daxter for this exact reason

Even if SoA looked at Doom and thought, "what if Sonic could run on doom?" There's zero way they'd vision what SRB2 ended up, SRB2 only works on hindsight instead of actually being a logical engine to make a Sonic game from. The original Doom didn't even allow Doom Guy to jump, SRB2 is just pure luck to have happened to be honest.

>>8100054
Doomguy can jump. This has been debunked.

>>8088368
The engine could easily handle fully-3D levels in the vein of Tomb Raider or Gex, the issue is that its optimization didn't allow for such things and believe me Crash is ridiculously optimized to where other developers were crying foul and accusing ND of having a bespoke dev kit.

>>8098304

>>8100054
Doom doesn't have jumping strictly because Doom doesn't have jumping.
In terms of the engine, jumping is as simple as setting the players' vertical speed to go upwards on the press of a button.
I'm still surprised that with Doom 2's added verticality, they didn't change a few things (like letting you move over the heads of enemies -- all the data to implement this sensibly is present, but player-enemy collisions ignore object heights because again, in Doom 1, there's very little verticality).

Still, you're absolutely right that it isn't a sensible engine choice. No slopes, no vertical camera rotation (seeing beneath you is pretty important in a platformer), first person, etc, etc.
SRB2 used it because in 1999, it was basically the only option they had for a freely available 3D engine for a hobbyist to use.

>>8100317
There are ways in OG Doom to gain upwards vertical speed, but there's no real jump implemented.

>>8100317
>>8100414
I thought it was literally impossible to make DG move up on the "grid" since it was techincally just a projection to make a 2D drawmap into a 3D like space, but I guess I was mistaken.

>>8100338
Is this real? She's so sexy! I wonder if this was added just because "the little mermaid" was out then and lots of dads and brothers were like 'I would totally fuck that mute bitch'

>>8088260
Could a metroid 64 have been good?

>>8088896
Pokemania ended in 2000. People had already seen it all from Sonic by the time S3K came out

>>8099096
>If only they had decided to copy Doom's engine and make a sonic game with it...
>But then people would complain about the lack of shuttle loops I guess
There's also the fact the Doom Engine can baerely run on the Saturn. Hell SRB2 can't even run on Dreamcast without getting single frame digits

>>8097063
>probably because it was started before sonic adventure was even a pipe dream
Both started development in 1997?

>>8100625
There's no actual reason it couldn't have been good. You were seeing the DNA of what would eventually be Metroid Prime come together at Acclaim with the Turok games and Armorines. They could also have made something like Jet Force Gemini, or just straight up made a sidescroller. Sakamoto's weird autism about not understanding analogue sticks is why it didn't happen.

>>8100574
For an example: Doom 2 didn't add any jumping or change Z collision between monsters and players, but what it did add was the Arch-Vile enemy, setting aside that this is still one of the best enemies ever designed for a first person shooter in the year 2021, what its attack does if allowed to complete is to jet you up in the air.

This was added really just for visual effect (and because you don't have that much air control, so it slows you down for a split second), but Doomguy does actually get properly launched up into the air, and theoretically this can be exploited, letting you leap over barriers and reach spots you aren't supposed to.
People would exploit this, to the point that there's secrets in the Final Doom expansion which are only reachable by letting the Arch-Vile monster boost you upwards, and then there's "Arch-Vile Jump" a fan mapset where every level is a puzzle, where you have to use this jumping to solve and exit each level, without dying (because actually being hit by that attack hurts like fuck, so you can't do it too much without available health pickups or invulnerability powerups).

This can also launch other enemies up into the air as well, how far up will depend on their mass, the Baron, Mancubus, or the Cyberdemon achieve no lift at all because they're too heavy, but Zombies and Imps will fly high, and it's pretty funny to look at. Potentially they can be thrown up towards some ledge they're not supposed to, where potentially another Arch-Vile could resurrect their dead body (the other troublesome ability they have), thus the Imp himself has unknowingly exploited physics and reached forbidden places.

>>8088254
>Naka quite literally REEEEEEEEEEEEE'd at the mere idea of lending his Nights engine to the Americans

And to think he wasn't even the one responsible for Nights being good

>>8100785
>Yuji Naka is an uppity, self-absorbed faggot
Sonic-niggers have saying this for years. I really hope that rumor of Lizuka banging Naka's gf during the development of the Shadow spinoff is true

>>8088356
dilate

>>8088321
wait is nights a bad game now?

>>8100824
always has been, the hell?
precursor to balan wonderland

Its a shitty attempt to combine an arcade game and a home game and making neither

>>8100824
it was always borderline unplayable trash.

>>8100834
>>8100828
t.

>>8100840
Hate this faggot with a burning. Roaring passion. What a cunt.

>>8100840
you will never be a woman.

>>8088254
Why didnt they simply make a faster Mario 64 or faster Crash? Literally all they had to do was copy the games and put Sonic skins in it, fucking retards.

>>8100935
Would the Saturn have been physically capable of something on the scale of Mario 64?

>>8100959
No. Closest thing to it is Croc and it sucks and has shit tank controls

>>8100959
You could do it. There are real issues (namely texturing) that would cause problems, and you'd probably target 20fps instead of 30, but it's not some absurd impossibility.

oddly enough, doing something the way Spyro does for drawing, where it aggressively avoids drawing textured polygons would be quite feasible on Saturn
plus, the mode-7 style "playfield" you can draw via VDP2 can allow for easy wide-open spaces with zero geometry penalty
the Saturn doesn't draw gouraud shaded polygons nearly as fast as the PS1 does though, so you'd still have issues

>>8100662
Doom for Saturn was a shitty rushjob after Carmack vetoed the hardware rendered version because of texture warping.
The PS1 version does crazy bullshit like rendering the screen with a bunch of single-pixel wide polygons, and was quite well optimized for the machine. Still a bit choppy, but a pretty good effort.
The Saturn version is a hasty port of the 32X version's all software drawing code... but with all the added detail of the PS1 version levels (minus the colored lighting), and running with a larger screen size.
Given that the Saturn's SH-2 CPUs aren't that much faster than those in the 32X, using more detailed stage geometry and more resolution and everything with this codebase is just a recipe for disaster.

>>8100824
It was always an odd score-attack game that never ever ever explains that fact and was marketed head to head as something like Crash or Mario.
Bad? No. It's fun when you get a grip on it, and the graphics are pretty nice. Sonic Team really knew what they were doing with the machine, although they're also a bit too willing to just stop drawing polygons no matter where they are on screen (an issue that extends to Burning Rangers)

but like, it sure as fuck shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as either

>>8088260
You have to keep in mind that in the mid 90s 3D was the big craze. It didn't matter that consoles could barely run that shit beyond a slideshow framerate and tons of jank; if your game wasn't 3D it was a fucking joke. And so to have the main mascot of your company be "backwards 2D" at that time wouldn't have been a good look.
Yeah, it would've been amazing to get a high-quality sprite art Sonic game on Saturn with some cool effects and maybe layered background/foreground effects with the player getting to move between paths through different layers or something, but it still would've been written off as a joke because it wasn't 3D like Mario or Crash

>>8100574
>since it was techincally just a projection to make a 2D drawmap into a 3D like space
Doom's levels are basically a set of heightmaps. There's a 2D map of level sectors, and each sector has floor and ceiling heights. It's not general purpose 3D, but Doom makes good use of the fact that its levels aren't just flat.
IIRC, they went with this because it made designing levels easier -- if you could draw it on paper, you could do it in Doom, and then you could add vertical shifts of the floor and ceiling after doing that drawing to actually make use of the third dimension.

>>8101021
do you think SoTN was a cult game or something?

>>8101042
It had mediocre sales at release. Not quite a cult game, but it was still the sort of thing that was a slow-burner that picked up over time rather than being a smash hit. And it's a game notable for bucking the trend, but that doesn't mean the trend of the time didn't exist. 3D was in, 2D was out.

>>8101020
>Doom for Saturn was a shitty rushjob after Carmack vetoed the hardware rendered version because of texture warping.
I suspect that the texture warping must have been quite excessive to get 60fps on the Saturn, if it even did, which is another thing I doubt. Looking at all available builds of this port, it's kind of really shittily put together in its entirety, even early on, and it differs little between builds, so there must have been quite a lot of time spent not working on the game at all.

There's gotta be a lot more to the story than Jim Bagley lets on, he must have been wrapped up in another project and focused on that instead, or his team were all slacking off.

>>8101038
Indeed, and it's quite easy to work fast building maps that way, maps which will be three dimensional in the end (modern fanmade software like Doom Builder and Ultimate Doom Builder makes it ten times as fast and convenient even). Moving to Quake, John Romero noted that building levels was much slower than Doom, since the map data was all fully 3D, their in-house software also didn't have a lot of the nice quality of life features that modern programs like TrenchBroom have.

>>8101020
>Doom for Saturn was a shitty rushjob after Carmack vetoed the hardware rendered version because of texture warping.
Saturn does a pisspoor job with render distance so it's already off the table. Only way it could have worked is if you made Sonic was slow

>>8101081
There were some FPS games on Saturn which worked well enough, Hexen, Duke Nukem 3D, Quake, Powerslave.
I figure that with the right approach, you could make a pretty alright 3D Sonic game on the Saturn, even if it won't be Super Mario 64 tier on the technical level.

>>8100054
Powerslave was popular in Japan, but mostly because of Death Tank.

>>8101087
It was hard enough actually nailing those kinds of levels with a good draw distance. You don't move as fast as Sonic would in games like Duke Nukem. It would probably take 3 years just to get 1 or 2 levels right. Even with the Nights engine the best they could get was that Sonic demo where Sonic was slow as molasses and only moved in 8 directions

>>8101087
The issue is that sonic needs speed. Speed needs large areas and high framerates. Hell, the entire purpose behind Sonic being a thing was to demonstrate how much more powerful the Genesis was over the Nintendo by how it could pull off Sonic blitzing through levels. 3D sonic never would've worked on the Saturn for the same reason 2D sonic never would've worked on the NES.

>>8088254
Still better than Mario 64.

I think something akin to Willy Wombat would have worked, running to an open 3D environment wile moving the camera with the shoulder buttons, the Sonic character could be prerendered too.

>>8101107
Yeah, I think an FPS-style engine wouldn't work. You'd probably want a racing game engine, really.
You'd probably end up designing levels like racetracks. In fact, at the time, that would probably be one of the more obvious ways to satisfy the need for long courses while still going fast.
It'd certainly be decried later on as being too linear, but in 1995/1996, it would have been a fairly natural evolution, all while most developers didn't know jack shit about 3D design.

I think the biggest issue is that you might end up also deciding that controls in the vein of Sonic R would be good enough, and good god, that game handles like ass (Knuckles controls half-okay, I did all of the emerald and medal collecting with him).

>>8088254
I can't believe this wasnt the inspiration for Lost World. then again, would it have been good in the first place? the series has been known for letting you blast loose through levels, and further levels would have you slow down into some forced generic platforming. I feel like it wouldve been no better than 3D blast

>>8101123
The insurmountable issue is that isometric platformers suck balls and can not be good games.

>>8088287
>Repetitively mogs japan in every technical aspect
>Sometimes even on their own hardware with no documentation to work off of
>But somehow are bad
Weebs. Not even once.

>>8100824
no but zoomers hate it because they can't grasp the concept of retrying a level until you're good at it

>>8088254
I actually think about this a lot when I'm having to work long hours on projects I hate, that are driving me insane.
At least I have an end goal. I could have been these fuckwits.

>>8102985
Jeff gerstmann doesn't like nights
That means I don't like nights
Simple

>>8088254
And? I slept for 2 months under my desk to get the logistics system and software for our company up and running. All part of the job of a programmer. If you are just in for the money then forget it.

>>8103724
>I slept for 2 months under my desk to get the logistics system and software for our company up and running.
...and did they pay you a bonus?

>>8104306
Yes. Point is you can't expect an easy going life anywhere in software development...unless you're a script kiddie or some maintenance monkey.

>>8103724
Imagine bragging about being a slave

>>8104481
I prefer that kind of culture to the one we have now in companies
Games are bad because it's just a bunch of normies who 'have lives' instead of nolife nerds who sleep at their desks

>>8101020
>The Saturn version is a hasty port of the 32X version's all software drawing code... but with all the added detail of the PS1 version levels (minus the colored lighting), and running with a larger screen size.

No it's not. It's a port of the PS1 version. It renders everything as VDP1 sprites in strips trying to mimic how the PS1 does it with polygon strips. The problem is VDP1 isn't really designed to do this very well or efficiently. So there's tons of additional user coordinate commands being used on VDP1 which really kills the performance.

32X Doom on the other hand is a fork of Jaguar Doom with some help from Carmack himself. It's actually a very good port for the time limited more by the small cartridge size and the fact it was rushed to be a 32X launch title. Fans have reported the Jaguar code to 32X and have gotten this kind of performance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKz9ItBdodw

If 32X can do that with slower SH-2s, Saturn should be able to match or exceed it.

>>8104481
We all are enslaved one way or another. I have the obligation to give my kids a good life, anything else comes second.

>>8104515
Best of luck to you.

>>8098304
Baby want busty nakey mermaid!

>>8104515
If Autismio Carmack had not rejected the first Saturn port...sure.

>>8100802
Iizuka is an even bigger faggot, nigger. He's the reason Sonic died after SA2.

>>8100824
No, but people don't like Yuji Naka anymore after the blunder of Balan Wonderworld.

>>8102985
/thread

>>8103706
>Lord Faggot hates thing, therefore I hate thing
Anon...

>>8104539
If 32X can do plain old software rendered Doom at full screen at 20-30fps, there's no reason the Saturn can't.

Carmack helped with the 32X port and knew what the SH-2s were capable of. I'd imagine Jim Bagley's fabled 60fps VDP1 accelerated version was probably a texture warping mess and Carmack vetoed it probably thinking "Wtf are you doing? You should be able to at least match 32X and Jaguar with software rendering on these CPUs."

>>8104539
Jim Bagley is lying, his first draft was not running in 60fps, and the texture warping made the entire game look like it was underwater.

>>8104561
Yeah, Carmack said "In retrospect, I should have allowed for more experimentation." which some people interpret as a full admission of guilt and that what Bagley says was the absolute truth.

>>8101042
It wasn't that successful.

>>8104515
>If 32X can do that with slower SH-2s, Saturn should be able to match or exceed it.
Without question, Powerslave and Quake already proves that you can do a fast first person shooter on the Saturn

>>8105550
Does the port of Duke Nukem run well on the Saturn too?

>>8105673
It runs ok.

>>8105673
Excellent due to the slave driver engine.

>>8104523
I'm sure your wife's boyfriend will be a better father to them than you ever were anon.

>>8104523
your kids will end up resenting you for being an absent father

>>8096872
It was until they ruined it. 1.09.4 forever, fuck nu-srb2

>>8106604
You know nothing.

>>8104515
Damn, you're right.
I wonder where the fuck I read they used the 32X code then.

>>8088896

>basoc

>english isn't my first language!
>you knew what i meant!

>>8097739
lol, try actually playing it. I did, it's marginally better than Bubsy 3D.

>>8088254
I'm surprise that Xtreme fangame never came to fruition considering how productivity Sonic fans are.