/vr/ - Retro Games

>>783457
What I hate is opinions. You think it looks good quality, I think it looks bad. I think old games rely on CRT fuzziness to look good and you'll never convince me otherwise.

>>783467
I agree. Older games were created with that blurring in mind. Otherwise dithering wouldn't be a technique.

>>783467
>I think old games rely on CRT fuzziness to look good and you'll never convince me otherwise.

Now this is what I call an opinion. You don't use any technical terms, it's just that you 'feel' that it's the CRT fuzziness that made it look good.

Do you have any understanding of how display technology works or are you purely guided by emotion?

I do use one actually, and I really wish I had an actual CRT to play games on. Everything just looks awful, really.

There's the
>I need a Sony Trinitron and a composite/RGB converter mod in order to play my old games as crisp as possible
crowd

Then there's the
>I need to use shaders and filters on my emulators in order to muddy up the graphics because they are too crisp.
crowd
Both are anal retentive weirdos

>>783498
Which upscaler do you use, and what connection to you use from your console to the upscaler, and then from the upscaler to the TV?

I play my games on an old basement CRT with converge and color bleed issues.

<spoiler>Just like the developers intended.</spoiler>

>>783480
False. See >>763519

>>783487
I think he means color dithering look better when blurred through CRT.

Theoretically it's possible to build a scaler that works line by line (so it adds insignificant latency), and preserves clear pixels. I don't believe such a scaler exists. And even if it did, you'll lose the benefits of CRT flicker so scrolling/motion will look like shit.

I'm just jealous that you have to pay more than you do for a TV to get a nice scaler

>>783503
"As crisp as possible" actually means using a high-end CRT computer monitor and integer ratio nearest neighbor scaling.

>>783552
I don't agree with that. Most people's prejudices about post-CRT display systems are mostly based on the kind of horrible shit that de-interlacing causes as a result of plugging old consoles directly into a new TV or using a low-quality upscaler.

A high quality modern TV and a good scaler produces superior image to CRT every time, and arguably a more accurate one as well.

I dunno, I would love to get a Framemeister to bypass the shitty upscaling on my plasma.

Sure I could also play games on a CRT but my 42" is bigger and more compact (and, you know, works with 1080p content).

/vr/ hates upscalers cause they are poor

>>783562
Superior image, but inferior motion. Flicker is the only way to get sharp motion from low framerate content ("low" in this context meaning less than about 200fps).

>>783596
I agree to a certain extent with you, but you also need to note that CRT technology is standing still. Other display technologies are constantly getting better (and will eventually improve picture with motion), and none are multi-sync cable like CRT. Hence, scalers will remain valuable into the future.

>>783613
*capable

If upscalers didn't cost more than buying an old tv, I'd consider it.

>>783642
You can assemble a decent scaler for $100. That's more than $100 but it gives you all the flexibility you need with playing old consoles. It may not be Frameister quality but it's still decent.

>>783642
You can assemble a decent scaler for $100. That's more than an old TV but it gives you all the flexibility you need with playing old consoles. It may not be Frameister quality but it's still decent.

>>783651
Deets, brother. I need 'em.

Also what is the obsession with scanline filters or using things like the SLG-3000? When I play old vidya on old tv's, I never notice them and I sure as hell wouldn't WANT them to be there anyway.

>>783648
Would you be able to provide me with some more information about making my own? It would be a fun experiment for me.

>>783662
Well the famous DYI scaler is the GBS-8220 / Sync Strike / SLG3000 combo. You can get some of those components on Ebay for quite cheap.

I'm not a huge fan of scanlines, but I understand the purpose of the SLG-3000 in that combo. The GBS-8220 is a amazing scaler for the price but it's still not what I would call an accurate de-interlacer like the Frameister. The SLG-3000 is basically there to cover up for the de-interlacing mistakes of the GBS-8220 and it does that job very well.

I have both a PVM and an XRGB-3 to a plasma display. I use RGB cables going to both and the picture, IMO, is superior on the xrgb/plasma.

>>783582

>>783503

>>783716
The Sync Strike is completely optional as long as you use the 3 Red/White/Yellow plugs? Or does it do more than convert SCART to VGA?

CRTs are obsolete and hard on the eyes

http://www.solarisjapan.com/categories/XRGB/

A modern solution for playing old games

>>783457
>new televisions

>>783575
>Sure I could also play games on a CRT but my 42" is bigger and more compact (and, you know, works with 1080p content).

>Not buying an XM37
full pleb.

>>784474
>CRT
>Obsolete
Obviously someone doesn't play old video games or have anything to do with a video production pipeline. Go anywhere but /vr/ or /tv/, please.

>>783558
>Scaling
bah, just turn your video mode all the way down and center the picture.

Been using the XRGB mini for a month now, and just recently got a scart cable for my psx. I definitely don't consider myself an obsessive videophile but the framemeister with scart yields a gorgeous picture on sprite based games (though I admit I grew up using solely composite for video games).

It really is a shame it makes games that switch video modes during gameplay unplayable.

>>784503
There are only a handful of CRTs still available for professional studio use, but they still face extensive competition from flat-panel displays.

Some games look "better" on CRT's than HD's in only certain circumstances. The only example I can think of at the moment is DKC series.

I personally love playing my retro titles on my progressive scanned Wii.

>>784446
Uh depends on the scaler. The GBS-8220 doesn't accept composite, only RGB/Component. Also the Sync Strike doesn't convert SCART to VGA, just cleans the sync on RGB and provides a convenient plug for SCART while doing it.

Filters are needed when using modern displays to emulate the authentic retro experience.
For example, in pic related the text of the sign is unreadable. In a real TV you can read it just fine

>>784627
On the other hand, with a NTSC filter we get a readable sign and a much better image overall.

>>784637
autoban

>>784627

To be fair, the text on the Inn's sign is still readable, it just looks much more like pixelated garbage than it does in >>784637

Do you have that picture where someone took the bricks in Figaro castle become more noticeable after a filter?

>>784708
>autoban
For what?

>>784683
Oh man, I remember the first time I plugged my NES into my 42" LCD, it was even worse.

>>784683
Turn the widescreen off. Problem solved.

I don't hate them (in fact, I've heard very good things about them), but it seems silly to me to spend hundreds of dollars on one when I can have a CRT PVM for a fraction of the price. I would consider getting one if I didn't have space for a PVM, I guess.

>>784627
>>784637
Interesting point, but please don't try to muddy the waters of upscaling and emulation filters. They have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Real upscalers don't filter.

>>784683
This picture is pretty much why you need an upscaler (even though I know its an emulator shot). This kind of thing can be caused by the TV itself trying to de-interlace the image with its internal upscaler, and then filtering to cover up its mistakes. Of course it does it pathetically, but a real upscaler like the XRGB range does it perfectly.

>>783457
WOW GET A LOAD FROM THIS FAG

IF YOUR NOT PLAYNG REAL HARDWARE THRU RF CONECTION THAN YUR NOT TRU RETRO ENUGH

Okay enough of that, you may think I'm crazy or straight stupid, but RF (when properly connected) gives this look to the games, it reminds me of my first times playing vidya. HD TVs make them look bad and having to buy expensive upscaling box-thingies just feels wrong. To each his own they say.

>>786573
PVM is a professional-grade monitor. Those things aren't cheap, nor were they what the games were designed to be used on (average shitty consumer TVs through RF)

>>786638
god so expensive better go get a second mortgage

>>786645
I can't find any at my local craiglist.

>>786648
damn that sucks, I literally had one in my hands for $25 just a couple of days after even finding out about PVMs

>>786645
>inb4 busted electron guns or screen burn

>>786660
Nah they're legit, there's a ton of video/movie production companies in Orlando

>>786608
I used RF all the way until halfway through my PS2. I never realized the red/yellow/white cables made the picture look much better because my TV was shitty anyway.

It wasn't until I bought Time Crisis 3 and realized the gun wouldn't work with RF that I went out and bought a TV with RCA jacks.

>>786670
>implying large OLED TVs when available combined with an upscaler won't totally school PVMs in every possible picture quality way

Processing adds lag, prevents video techniques dependent on the nature of CRTs, and most light gun games depend on the electron beam scanning (and those that don't still require zero lag).

A decent upscaler is miles ahead of the shitty internal scalers in TVs, but it's still not good enough.

>>786765
>prevents video techniques dependent on the nature of CRTs
HURR MAH SCANLINES

you can't even see them on most CRT TVs, hipster

>>786765
Lag is really only an issue when playing Duck Hunt

>>786729
>implying large OLED TVs are within any normal person's price range or will be in the near future

>>786771
>ignores the lag argument

>>786771

I wasn't even thinking about scanlines when I wrote that, but way to out yourself.

>>786772

Can't beat Punch Out with more than a couple frames of lag either.

It affects everything, but it's games like those two that really demonstrate the problem best by becoming flat-out impossible.

>>786780
not him but I'm going to have to test PO on my Aquos. I've never heard anything about it not working.

>>786784

Nobody said it doesn't work. Input lag just makes the Tyson fight impossible to win by pushing the necessary reaction time outside of human ability.

>>786784
The issue is in the "tells" the enemies have before launching certain attacks. When you take into account the lag inherent in deinterlacing as well as the variable lag when it comes to scaling, you usually end up in a situation where the "tells" don't appear until it's past the time where you can react to them effectively

Hmmmm - interesting. I have an HDTV that can do 1080i and 720p. So far, I haven't noticed any lag issues with my Wii and Punch Out, so maybe I'm just lucky. I would like to see what the success/error ratio is for HD users, though.

>>786765
CRTs have 1ms lag. High quality LCD displays have 2ms lag, OLED has 1ms just like CRT. Good upcalers have something like 0.5ms lag.

>>786789
That's incorrect. It has nothing to do with the game speeding up to impossible reaction speed, but because some HDTVs produce lag that results in the picture being 1-2 frames behind the game's processing.

>>786795
>OLED has 1ms just like CRT

OLED should not have issues with fighting games (in fact modern tourney fighters are played on OLED PC monitors), however it would still be impossible to play DH on it.

>>786794

You're not going to intuitively notice a fraction of a second of lag, even while it ruins your game of PO. Your perception simply isn't that fine.

>>786796

The 2ms GTG pxiel update doesn't work the way you think it does, and is not the main source of lag anyway.

>>786796

Nobody said the game speeds up. Losing a few frames will cut the time you have to react, possibly pushing it outside of your ability.

Uhh, forgive me for asking a silly question, but are you still using component cables?

Personally, I have only seen the image delay thing happen with coax/composite hookups - if you are still getting it using composite, your only hope is, as others posted, that your set has a minimal signal processing game mode.

>>786795
This is without considering the fact that deinterlacing, by its very nature, HAS to introduce lag in order to work.

I was playing it on some random 36" LCD LG model and there was no lag whatsoever. It really just does depend on the TV. I was also connecting to the TV via a VGA connection + VGA box, but I'm not sure if that has anything to do with it.

Add this to the myriad of reasons why plasma is the superior technology compared to LCD.

I have a 26" Samsung LNS2641D that has had no lag issues with and does have a "game mode" that I never use. I think they've worked out the kinks with games on their newer HDTVs. I haven't tried any virtual console games though.

>>786821

Newer games take the processing of modern TVs into account and will not put the player into a situation where they have to react within 200ms.

>>786817
That's why every upscaler has some lag as I said above, but good quality upscalers has extremely minute amounts of lag. Probably not enough to make a negative difference with Punch Out!!

>>786821
I have a 42" Bravia and have tested all the following games on it

NES:

SMB
DH
SMB2
SMB3
LOZ
AOL
Castlevania
Kirby's Adventure
Bad Dudes
Balloon Fight
Mario Bros
Maniac Mansion
Double Dragon
Dragon Quest
Dragon Quest II
Mega Man 1
Lode Runner
Bubble Bobble
Kiwi Kraze
Pac-Man
Ms. Pac-Man
Donkey Kong Classics

SNES:

SMW
LTTP
YI

NES:

OOT

Aside from (obviously) Duck Hunt, all of them work on this TV with no apparent problems

>>786838
upscalers that deal primarily with 240p do not need to actually do deinterlacing (waiting for the next field), they can just scale the complete image as soon as it's available

>>786845
>NES:
>OOT

Whoops, meant N64

I'm new to all this retro stuff, but I was wanting to play my NES again, and all I have is a 21" CRT monitor that accepts VGA input. I know it's not really about upscalers, but is there a converter that'll take RCA video signal and convert it to VGA?

>>786843
That's the problem. Most TV manufacturers don't bother with proper 240p support because it's not used by broadcast signals. Obviously it's different when one uses a scaler specifically designed for this signal.

>>786852
It would need to not only convert to RGB, but also "step up" the scan frequency to 31Khz

>>786852
It'll be tricky. NES to my knowledge doesn't output RGB at all. RGB to VGA is easy, but anything else to VGA (except for component) is hard as fuck.

Expensive upscalers like the Framemeister can take composite (yellow cable) and output whatever you want, but of course it's a hell of a price.

This is all very interesting to me. So where can I go to read all about this stuff?

whenever i play anything it's either on emulator, on my Wii through an Emulator hooked up to an HDTV (sometimes i switch the cords around. there's one with RCA and then there's another that has 5 cords, i believe it's called component i'm not sure) or on the original system with RCA cable on one of those old fatback TVs. Educate me on this stuff, thanks.

somebody mentioned input lag and that got me wondering

>>786845
>reading comprehension

Aside from Zapper games, lag doesn't actually stop them from working. It just makes reflex based goals harder, or in some cases impossible to beat.

>>786864
Best gaming upscaler resource ever is this website
http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/

>>786852
>is there a converter that'll take RCA video signal and convert it to VGA?

It's completely pointless to convert a low fidelity analog signal to a higher fidelity type of cable.

The missing fidelity isn't going to magically appear out of thin air to fill up the extra bandwidth the VGA cable will provide.

>>786870
no idea but Mega Man 1 is a fairly difficult game and I can reach Dr. Wiley in one sitting quite easily, but then of course I know it like the back of my hand.

>>786864
>and then there's another that has 5 cords

Three for component video and two for stereo audio.

>>786885

I don't think MM1 absolutely requires reactions you can't compensate for at any point. Try beating Mike Tyson in Punch Out.

If you have lots of lag he's just going to wreck you and there's nothing you can do about it.

If you can dodge his punches based on his tells but can't counterattack, then you've got a fairly fast (but still not fast enough) setup.

>>786869

Whoa, this is bit much for me, thank you. I was thinking a lot more simple, because I'm a layman when it comes to this stuff. Maybe some basics and then I'll come back to this one later.

>>786898
There aren't really any simple websites I can think of, just all balls on. If you have any questions about upscalers just post em and I'll see if I can help you out.

>>786895
>Try beating Mike Tyson in Punch Out

Err, just how am I to do that when I don't have this game to test it with?

It's as I said earlier. In all likelihood, a good scaler will only produce minute amounts of lag to the point where PO is not affected.

>>786953
>not having Punch Out

I am appalled by you.

Get a copy. It doesn't even have to the Tyson version. Mr. Dream has exactly the same moveset and timing.

>>786959
would the XRGB be ok?

>>786959

I've never heard of someone beating PO through even a Framemeister. It has to run in B0 mode, so you're getting at least 2 frames of lag from that alone.

>>786980
Yes but certainly not cheap. Of course any 13" Chinese shit CRT TV from like 1992 can be obtained at a Salvation Army for $5 and it will play PO and Duck Hunt without a hitch. You may want to keep such a set just for those problematic games.

>>786981
Were they using it on an LCD or plasma? because the latter will always have less lag.

>>786981
I doubt that will make any significant difference

I can test Street Fighter on my HDTV because this game is said to fall apart on them.

>>786991

To date I haven't seen it done on either.

>>786993

It's enough to end a game of PO.

Makes for much smoother gameplay than the typical 6 frames for games without such tight timings, though.

XRGB still doesn't allow light gun games to work though...

>>787005
No because they work by detecting the electron beam as it's passing down the screen. No beam=no zapper.

>>786995
I've played in fighter tourneys and all of the modern games are played on HD displays, not oldskool 15Khz RGB monitors. Apparently there's a myth circulating that they're still played with CRTs when it's not true, even for the elite-level guys.

Boot up Battletoads. If this game can be beaten on an HDTV, then it's proven its worth.

>>786645

>Orlando

MAH NIGGA

>>787006

The NES Zapper in particular doesn't work that way. All it does is flash a fully black screen followed by a black screen with a white target box on it in the next frame. If it sees one frame of black followed immediately by one frame of white, it registers the hit.

It would theoretically work on any display with sufficient contrast, but even one frame of lag breaks the timing necessary.

A couple of guns work the same way, like the shotgun for the Magnavox Odyssey.

Scanning beam tracking is a different technology, originating from oldschool computer light pens.

>>787008

Modern fighters are designed with LCDs in mind, and if you have two human players playing on the same screen they have the same handicap as far as input lag goes anyway.

>>787029
>>787008
You're both full of shit; in fact modern fighter tourneys are played on OLED PC monitors

>>787029
>It would theoretically work on any display with sufficient contrast

This is not true because I've used the Zapper on some pretty shitty CRT TVs where the background was gray (no black to speak of) and it didn't prevent the thing from working.

>>787040

The monitor they use at EVO is the Asus VH236H.

Which is a, you guessed it, LCD.

http://testyourmight.com/threads/asus-vh236h-lcd-monitor-the-best-the-evo-monitor.4502/
http://dromstruction.com/lag-test-for-led-version-of-the-evo-monitor-vh238h

>>787045

Then you still have sufficient contrast.

It's not a matter of debate. We know very well how the Zapper works, not least of which is because you can actually read the patent for it.

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/4813682.html
http://mentalfloss.com/article/26875/how-did-duck-hunt-gun-work

>>787073
Which basically puts a pin in the balloon of CRT hipsters who insist that all HDTVs have horrible, skullfucking lag.

>>787090

Something like SFIV is designed to be played with LCD lag. It has no bearing on retro games designed for CRTS.

>>787090

All of them don't insist that and calling people hipsters is immature and stupid, it's like nobody really knows what words means anymore

it has lost all significance and when you say it my head wants to jump off of my shoulders, can't you go 2 seconds without making someone who isn't you into a strawman?

fuck

>>787093
>Something like SFIV is designed to be played with LCD lag

right after you got done insisting lag makes games unplayable, you turn around and say it improves the quality of them

ITT: People still relying on info about HDTVs from 2006

>>787098
>herp derp

It certainly doesn't improve the quality of SFIV. They just allow you more time to react to animations (and especially the AI) to compensate for laggy LCDs.

Retro games made for CRTs are not so forgiving. They had no reason to be.

>>787094
i bet you'd like that, wouldn't you hipster

>>787130

b-but i don't wear plaid anon-kun