/vr/ - Retro Games

The Joker

>>770041
I've heard this but I sincerely doubt that was all.

I always find it funny that Kefka's apparently pretty unpopular in Japan, and that a lot of the stuff America loves about him was from Woolsey.

>>770043

He's the epitome of mustache-twirling evil.
He's not based on a certain character, more of an amalgam of the best of the character trope.

>I found these translation of an Ultimania like book for FF VI that give us a whole lot of new information on Kefka. Enjoy.

Age: 35 year old
occupations: Large demon derived loyal retainer
height/weight: 167cm/48kg
date of birth: November 19th (Scorpio)
Blood type: AB
birthplace: Unclear
likes: Mirror
hates: General Leo
hobbies: Playing with Dolls

>For reasons unknown, Kefka is abandoned at birth. He is raised in a local orphanage where is he is physically abused, and develops autistic traits, growing into a taciturn child.

>At a young age, Kefka graduates from the imperial academy at the head of his class, and is brought to the Magitek lab in Vector, where he becomes the first Magitek knight. The process warps Kefka’s mind, and he realizes he exists only to kill. He worships the emperor, and by the age of 23 is promoted to commander of one of Gestahl’s troop battalion.

>At the age of 25, Kefka encounters the second ruin knight, an eight year old child by the name of Celes. He takes a keen interest in her, and trains her to become a hardened runic knight.

>At the age of 30, Kefka is promoted to prime minister of the empire, second only to the emperor himself. A year later, he is promoted to the position of chief of staff of the entire imperial troop. As one of the empires most brilliant minds Kefka accomplishes much in the name of the emperor, conquering foreign lands in his name.

>It is around this time that Kefka becomes interested in espers; this interest grows into an obsession with magic and the demonic, and Kefka eventually has a nervous breakdown. The breakdown is part of a long term effect of the Magitek process, which was unrefined during Kefka’s augmentation.

>>770073
>Due to Kefka’s mental decline, he is demoted. This happens, ironically enough, just around the time his protégé Celes Chere, now 15, is promoted to Admiral. The collapse occurs at the start of the 3rd imperial campaign. Kefka loses all good sensation in his body, and forgets his fondest memories, leaving with him only memories of his childhood abuse.

>Kefka begins to play with dolls, and his behaviour becomes increasingly eccentric; he begins to adorn himself with garish robes, and feminine embellishments, and his speech patterns and behaviour change appropriately. He becomes increasingly more violent, and has fits of anger, where he uses his magical abilities to attack soldiers who make fun of him. He gradually becomes the most feared man in the empire, a man who only finds beauty in death and destruction.

>>770048
It's not really the lines I liked about Kefka, it was the fact you saw just the right amount of him, and every time he was seen, he turned everything on its head.

>>770041
Not in the Japanese version. The Joker traits were added by Woolsey during localization.

>>770048
Yeah, apparently in Japan Kefka isn't nearly as funny or interesting. He just spams curse words and comes off as a brute.

I remember reading somewhere that Amano drew the characters for FF6, and they the devs/writers just gave them personalities and fleshed out their characters later.

If anyone could confirm, that would be great.

>>770075

Well yeah, a lot of that came from the way Woolsey used him. Apparently, as >>770112 said, he was just a dumb, crazy brute in Japan.

Woolsey made him a crazy fucker who was entertaining as fuck to have show up and positively nuts.

As much as purists hate him, Woolsey did some good shit there. He took a meh villain and made him iconic.

>>770126
Dumb, crazy brute?

... How so?

I think I remember reading something about Kefka's beliefs being inspired by Franz Kafka's writings, but I dunno if that was a theory or actual fact

>>770126
for some reason i read icomic

>>770176

From my understanding- and I am running from a 'this is what others have told me' perspective because I don't Japspeak- Kefka in Japanese is a crazy idiot.

He's not snarky, witty, or interesting. He doesn't have the bits of dark humor that make him amusing in the English version, There's none of the things that really made him interesting- if something of a Joker rip off.

He was just a jackass who wanted to kill everything and was apparently rather flat.

>>770073
[citation needed]

>>770121
That's pretty bog-standard for video games. Amano draws the art based on the direction of the art director. Scenario writers and such do the actual writing.

There's an old doujin written by the scenario writer for Figaro, Mash/Sabin and Edgar, called Figaro no Kekkon: Tales of the Desert that is a non-canon expansion of the brothers' life and Figaro life in general. Pretty good read, if not canon.

>>770224
>rather flat.

Pretty typical of Japanese writing, TBH.

When they're not busy taking a shit all over subtlety and ramming the story's moral down your throat every five seconds, they're making the villain as uncompelling as humanly possible.

>>770126
>Well yeah, a lot of that came from the way Woolsey used him
How does the fact that his appearances in the story are always at at an extremely important point where shit goes down have anything to do with woosley?

He's a Sephiroth ripoff

>>770247
:D

>>770224
Cefca's personality in the Japanese is a lot less funny. He's pretty much 'I WILL DESTROY EVERYTHING,' and is supposed to be 'creepy insane'. That's how most of his stuff reads.

>>770224
Characters in Japanese versions of things are very rarely snarky, witty, or interesting.

Bland is generally the norm, unless they really want to make someone stand out.

>>770242

Not so much that, but rather that he made Kefka a much different character than the Japanese version.

Yes, the 'we didn't see much of Kefka' thing came from the original script, but the things that made him memorable were more than 'he was a meanie meanface who did mean things', it was how he did. It was his attitude.

RAR EVIL villains are a dime a dozen, ones that do it with flair and manage to be entertaining in spite of their basic 'fuck the world' goals? That's not so common.

>>770253
>Cefca

>>770258
What's wrong with Japan? Like, seriously.

>>770240
>Pretty typical of Japanese writing
Why do people think that the writing in video games and anime is somehow indicative of every Japanese story ever written?

>>770272
Its the language, really.

>>770268

The same reason people say there hasn't been a good book written in the 20-21st century. They don't read anything besides the crap.

>>770265
Kefka/Cefca, same difference. Whereas he's more Joker-esque 'Fishmalk' to use a tabletop RPG term in the US, in Japan he's that 'look at him and he's just a harmless kook, but behind that kook is a murderous person with a disregard for everything'.

>>770268

Most Japanese writing is like that. It's not restricted to anime or games, or even movies.

Not to say good writing doesn't exist, but the pervading writing culture is like that.

>>770273
The language can be very odd; there are things people expect in English that just don't exist in Japanese. Acting and such makes it easier to deal with; it's the same thing that causes fan translators to add gratuitous English cursing to their translations.

>>770289
>it's the same thing that causes fan translators to add gratuitous English cursing to their translations.
No, that'd be the light "swear" kuso, while literally meaning shit comes off as more like damn or darn, and is said by everyone from gang members to schoolchildren.

He's a villain with a clown theme.

I love FF6 to death, but Kefka isn't really a character with enough depth to discuss in this way. That's part of why he works so well in strict opposition to 6's cast, but still, he's an evil clown and not much more than that. He's based on the idea of an evil clown.

Kefka is pretty much the Joker of vidya.
He just wants to watch the world burn because he is insane.

>>770273
What does language has to do with bland or cliched writing?

>>770272

Japanese is a pretty stilted and inflexible language. They do make use of a lot of loan words from other languages, but since they aren't symbolic like Japanese is they don't really mesh well.

Loan words just end up sounding like complete nonsense, as the Japanese approximation is phonetically similar but symbolically completely unrelated to the foreign word.

>>770292
I meant in general about the writing style, where people don't generally 'get' the writing style (which IS a bit more unusual compared to what English speakers are used to), rather than translation of the minor curse words (and sometimes not even curse words at all) into more 'adult' curse words by English standards.

>>770304
>Japanese is a pretty stilted and inflexible language.
This is what I like about it. It's always about what you say and never about how you say it. No elbow room for doubletalking. You either told a lie or you didn't.

>>770289
Sometimes those translations are an improvement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo1gm4pC1ck

>>770363
>there are still people who think this is a good translation
>There are still people who think this anime is worth watching regardless

I love Kefka, and think that he is one of the best villains in Final Fantasy(along with ExDeath, The Emperor and Kuja). Everyone says he is a Joker ripoff, and to be fair, yeah he kind of is, but nowadays the Joker isn't Joker anymore, and I played FFVI in the middle of the godawful Death of the Family Batman storyline, and the entire time I thought 'Why can't Joker act more like Kefka?' He's just great, a villain you love to hate but, at the same time, makes you shit your pants whenever he comes into the room.

>>770082
Even then, Japanese Kefka had the goofy laugh and jester clothes first.

>>770032
Kafka

>>770407

That "goofy" laugh is supposed to be the stereotypical noblewoman's laugh, a feminine "OOOOHOHOHO"

The clothing likewise is supposed to be feminine. It only looks like a jester's outfit because it's garish by western standards.

His Japanese character is essentially a misanthropic queer.

>>770452
Oh Japan, you do love your misanthropic queers.

>>770048
The only thing I really love about Kefka is the music.
Kefka's theme was godly.

I've always found Kefka to be a terrible villain. Even for this,
>>770073
>>770074
It makes it more so if that is from an ultima. guide, because none of that could be interpreted from his representation in VI
>He's not based off the Joker
He sure as hell -acts- like The Joker.
>But that's Wosley translation
Having a nearly unspoken backstory while being described as
>so chaotic and unpredictable homocidal maniac in clown makeup
Doesn't help his case, coincedence or not. The joker has been written by countless authors, and honestly, you could shift a thousand joker subplots onto Kefka's character and not be able to try to care.
>Sephiroth ripoff
At least fucking Sephiroth has a decent villain to compare himself to versus
>DA JOKAH
Kefka's motivation of world domination only excuse is
>MADNESS
"Why are you doing this Kefka?"
>IM CRAZY
oh, ok, sorry for asking.
I wish I didn't come off as so assholish to VI fans, there are things I like and love about VI, and not one of those things is "Kefka". I'd label him as one of the worst FF villains right up there with Barthandelus. The difference being, I've never seen anyone give Barthandeulus praise as best FF villain. Happens every fucking day for Kefka.

>>770506
Really? I don't think anyone is near as bad as Zemus. He takes the cake for worst villain but then again FFIV really is the first FF to focus on characters, plot and a villain.

Either way, I like that his only motivation is madness. He's also a great foil to Terra.

Really, it's a shame that games back then had limitations on their script due to technical issues. Even FFIV has a very good base plot but the script is extremely lacking.

>>770518
Zemus was better than Kefka, for a lot of reasons. He wanted to dominate the earth WITH lunarians (not just HEHEHE CUHRAZY), he was your typical space invader, he did not -hate- his fellow lunarians initially, he just thought Earth was lacking and in need of better management by the superior...Lunarians. When they turned on him and put him to sleep , he got pissed. ZEROmus is just Zemus' hatred, but I digress.

>>770452
That's an interesting interpretation, I hadn't thought of that.
Guess I misinterpreted it as clown makeup.

>>770506
I'm Batman!!

>>770539
>Guess I misinterpreted it as clown makeup.

I imagine Woolsey counted on that.

>>770264
>Not so much that, but rather that he made Kefka a much different character than the Japanese version.

This is really overstated. Woolsey's Kefka isn't as completely removed from the Japanese translation as people always make it sound. Kefka leans more towards being insane in the Japanese rather than being zany in Woolsey's translation, yes, but he still has an occasional dark joke he throws in at inopportune moments. ("This village is so boring. Let's make it more interesting!" before setting Thamasa on fire.) Woolsey just took that and ramped it up in his dialogue. It's a fun change but not a drastic one.

Woolsey simply chose to emphasize some aspects and tone down others. There were some lines that were complete changes, like the Emperor's last words (which I feel sounded a hell of a lot better than the original Japanese), but Kefka's character wasn't this radical departure from the original that people make it seem. It's more of a refined interpretation of the character that worked better.

>>771232
>"This village is so boring. Let's make it more interesting!"

That's not a very funny joke :|

>>771330
Even the Woolsey jokes are more, "Heh." funny than laughing your ass off funny, come on.

>Nobody mentions Roman Emperor, Caligula
I'm pretty sure the comparison is made on tvtropes or something.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNwLDsOcG_0

>>771528
>them minnows

>>770452
>a feminine "OOOOHOHOHO"

That reminds me of this boss.

>>770258
>Characters in Japanese versions of things are very rarely snarky, witty

What, pretty much every doujin game character is that.

>>770363
Amen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVpwJbLLivU

>>770335
But that's why Japanese video games and animu come across as so poorly written. You're translating from a relatively straightforward language into one that's pretty reliant on context and inference, so it comes across as very stilted. I much prefer localizations over "pure" translations.

>>770452
I guess that'd explain why only he and Miss Cloud are able to equip the female-only gear in Dissidia despite not having a vagina, despite characters like Kuja and The Emperor looking more the part to a Western eye.

Kefka's Dissidia art did make him look like a big fucking dumb trollfaced mook instead of the tantrum-throwing sassypants we tend to imagine

also what the flying fuck is that "wriggling finger" emote that nearly every FF6 character has supposed to even convey. like what emotion is that.

>>771587
Dunno if you realize this, but doujin games aren't exactly mainstream.

> four elements air, fire, water, earth, actually there were 5 elements, nu, the void.

A big theme in the games is that there is balance for everything, ying yang, while the heroes used the 4 elements to serve their purposes, the villain used the void or was the void, enuo, exdeath.

Finally in this game there is a human avatar for the void, a human that struggles to find meaning in what the heroes do, a nihilist that despises all that is irrational all that is human, and seeks to return everything to a much simpler understandable state. Return everything to the predictable, rational and cold void.

There were 4 very important manga/anime series around the time of FF7's creation. 3 of the 4 of them were really blowing up at the time.

Berserk
Battle Angel Alita
Gundam Wing
and Evangelion.

I may not know the origin for Kefka, but I know Sephiroth's. Griffith + Zechs Marquise.

>>771665
>talking shit about FF6's wriggling finger
GET OFF MY PLANET

he is probably based on the european/italian arlecchino. but then again who isn't based on arlecchino?

every other jester figure is based on him. Batman's Joker, Skyrim's Cicero (the only half-way brilliant character that carries that whole shitgame all by himself narratively) and so forth. there is fucking long tradition in theatre and he has his origin in Italy. the theatre relation can be seen in FF6's opera house, and Figaro(!) castle of course.

I'm fairly sure it's where they got their inspiration from.

>>772160
this. saying it's just Joker traits wouldn't be enough at this point. it goes back way far in history.

>>772160
lol_I_trol_u.jpg

>>771735
Touhou

>>772160
that and this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainousHarlequin

explains it a bit as well. it's a popular trope these days

>>770247
I know you're joking but it's actually not too far from the truth, just reversed. A lot of what FFVII did was an attempt to recapture what the developers had done for FFVI.

>>772163
The fun thing about this is that arlecchino as known today originated in my home town. You see street performers in the city centre dressed garishly as arlecchino and pulcinella amongst other characters from the comedy of art, or setting up portable puppet stages featuring the characters in February each year. They can be quite obnoxious.

I understand arlecchino originated in Sicily during the last century of the Emirate and migrated northward but changed so much in the five to six centuries that followed that the current form is hitherto relatively unidentifiable with its origin. Either way, the impression of arlecchino on Kefka's design is undeniable.

>>771752
I never thought of Kefka as a Final Fantasy anthropomorphic personification of the Auditors of Reality. Interesting idea. Identifying him with them, though, might imply he may not actually be evil, per se.

>>772221
I actually pointed out that it ties to Arlecchino because I study theatre history and our professor gave us pretty much the same historical conclusions you gave although that was just a very small part of that.. I find italian theatre history as well as opera tradition absolutely astounding. shame about italy's recent cultural affairs decisions though.

>>772221
>Either way, the impression of arlecchino on Kefka's design is undeniable.

the italian FF wiki points that out as well.

This guy?
Darth Vader repurposed to survive the ending and be an elder brother instead of a father.
Pretty obvious, but hey.

I get into a lot of FF6 v. FF7 arguments because I believe there is a good reason to do so. They're very similar games, and if you're that similar, there is a reason to contest.

But FF4 is a property that picks no fights, because it stands in its own field, minding its own business.

Does anyone get an FF6 vibe when watching David Lynch's Dune?

Or a Dune vibe when playing FF6?

Because I have a feeling Japan liked it a lot.

>>772515
>But FF4 is a property that picks no fights, because it stands in its own field, minding its own business.
Fuck yeah, brother.

>>772128
>VII having good character design influences is one reason it was better than VI
I'm going to go there. Amano may have a signature artstyle that works well in some areas (VHD) but god damn if Final Fantasy and him -never- meshed well, especially when trying to spritify those designs. Dear god.
As far s influences, there's a famitsu interview out there where Kitase flat out admitted to reading berserk during the production of VII. Given that Cloud was originally black-haired (and supposedly more muscular, though none of the originals showed this) you can clearly see where the ideas came from.
Despite production "starting" right after FFVI, the actual concept for VII was only in production for one year, 1996. It was rushed and incomplete (I'm actually making a video series about this stuff)
Ironically, modern FFs have 3-5 year production times and are arguably overdeveloped or completely lacking in plot+characters.

>>772160
>Batman's Joker
Maybe modern incarnations, but no, the original Joker had nothing to do with your pretentious mythological studies. Conrad Veidt was the entire physical manifestation of the character from the film the man who laughs. It literally has jack shit to do with the Joker. If Amano got his inspiration from Harlequin designs, w/e, but please don't start pretending you know the history of character developments you have no concept of. There is an actual Harlequin character in the DC universe, its not the fucking Joker.

>>772968
FF4 for the DS is in my opinion the perfect marriage of Amano, super-deformed sprites, and the 3D style.

I want to see the same thing done for FF6, but done right, because THAT will be the superior game.

>>772926
I liked that movie, but while watching it with friends I could feel what a clusterfuck it was for anyone that didn't read the novels, oh my god.

>>772968
>Ironically, modern FFs have 3-5 year production times and are arguably overdeveloped or completely lacking in plot+characters.
ARGUABLY overdeveloped?
Oh come, come. There is no argument. That's what they are. No question.

The excelsior demand for graphics have slit FF's fucking throat. Once you've committed ideas to a subterranean render-farm of computer towers, there is no chance of going back and nixing story elements you had to make them better.

Chunky pixels are IDEAL for telling FF stories, because workshopping details to make them better are a fucking snap. But oh no. The consumer will turn his nose up at it if you try that shit now. They won't buy it.

We progressed in graphics too fast. I want to put both thumbs through the eyesockets of someone who bitches about the graphics in Bioshock Infinite. What, is THAT not smoothed out enough for some people? Fuck sake I hate HD.

>>773027
You watched it with friends expecting a good movie? Oh dear lord no.

You need to go in with your brain bending like a reed in the wind. You have to expect to love/hate the next amazing/shitty thing you see. It's the most wonderful/awful movie ever made.

>>773067

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7J9_S9NMCY
FATHER
THE SLEEPER HAS AWAKENED
THE SPICE MUST FLOW

I think that sums it up the movie.

>>770073
>kefka
>autistic

yeah I'm gonna go ahead and not take this for any value. Sounds like a fucking roleplayer's shitty headcanon.

>>771625
Miss Cloud?

>>773310
I assume its Cloud from FF7 in drag.

Ever play FF7? He has to dress up as a women to get into Don Corneos mansion.

>>772984
reported for fucking pissing on me for no reason and being a nitpicking dumbfuck. don't you have any frigging manners at all, you brainstroked douche? I never implied there wouldn't be any different sources for that specific character. I just mentioned him from the top of my head and you try to give my shit about it like the autistic homofaggot you are.

go shit in your own mouth next time before you try to open it, you retarded stupid little asshole.

>>772515
It takes a lot tonally from FFII, but nobody likes that one, so it gets a pass.

>>773703
I'd like that one if I could figure out where to go next.

And I hate the battle system.

>So was Kefka based on anything/anyone?

Nihilism?

Kuja was basically a riff off off Japan's youth and their obsession with pretty boy bands.

>>773809
That's a pretty long way of spelling David Bowie.

>>773835
That was Zidane though.

>>773852
...

No.

>>773894
The guy's a mutated muscular David Bowie.

>>770073
>770073
What's with Japan's need to make everyone so goddamn young?
>Second only to the emperor
>At 30.

>>770282
Like how the pervading writing culture in the west is twilight fan-fiction?

>>775120