/vr/ - Retro Games

>>7466921
Agree. Now what?

>>7466921
Strongly agree; an emphasis on story by hack writer trannys and faggots is how we now have video games that are more like shitty movies.

>>7466921
this philosophy produces fun games as the japanese have proven

>>7466921
Do I agree his games have the quality of porn that tries to have a story? Why yes. Yes I do.

Agree

Quake III was basically John Carmacks baby. No story. No single player. Pure gameplay.

>>7466921
god tier: subtle world building with lots of optional dialogue and item descriptions
good tier: basic, simple story -- can skip cutscenes
bad tier: shitty story and/or forced story segments
shit tier: retarded JRPG animu storyline with emo edgelord gayboy characters

>>7466921
Considering most of the shit we see nowadays, Carmack was right.

A doujin with a proper story is always superior.

>>7466930
>Missing the point this hard
Who cares

>>7466921
Where did the pixels go?
He's right unless the story is really damn good, which in some cases means they should have put it in a book or show, but there's more money in games almost.

I play games primarily for the gameplay. If the game is not good, how can the game be good?

>>7467050
>Quake arena can be solved
>Head explodes

>>7466921
Agreed. Story should ONLY serve to flavor the interactivity, even if it's a story driven game.

>>7467050
>video game
>can only be played digitally

>>7466921
Smart people like him are often morons in simple ways, because he couldn't see why stories help games, when stories have been with humanity since the dawn of man.
The market spoke however and concluded stories do matter.

It's true for the vast majority of games. I'm an MGSfag and MGS2 is my favorite game of all time, but games like that should be a novelty and an exception, not the rule.

>>7466921
Making a good story is difficult, but it doesn't mean it must be irrelevant.

>>7467135
>Smart people like him are often morons in simple ways
t. gigabrain
>The market spoke however
You do know why we care what Carmack has to say, right? Little game called Doom?

>>7467135

Stories help games, but they cannot overshadow the game itself, otherwise its total shit. He was just too based to give in to the worsening of the medium into the abysmal state its in today.

>>7467007
>seething this hard

>>7466921
Agree.
There are video game stories I really like but we’ve crossed the fucking line with visual novels, walking simulators, and narrative experiences. I hate to believe people pay money to consume such shit.

>>7466930
Cringed hard

>>7467135
a game with 0 story can still be a perfect game. a game with bad gameplay is bad regardless of writing or production value

>>7467186
>walking simulators
Open world and hopefully atmospheric games usually aren't that story heavy.

>>7467195
I really hope you're not defending walk simulators.

>>7467196
>doesn't like S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

I kind of agree and disagree. While I agree the gameplay is most important, the story is usually the first thing I check to guess what kind of gameplay and art I am in for. This last game I played that I was completely wrong on was Earth Defense Force, which my friend and I thought was dumb and childish but the gameplay was amazing.

>>7467201
lmao nigger, do you even know what a walking simulator is?

>>7467206
Do you mean like Gone Home and Dear Esther? Because I've heard it used to refer to open world RPG/FPS where you do a hell of a lot of walking.

>>7466932
Outside of multiplayer it's bland.

>>7467221
Yes, those are walking simulators. As in games devoid of gameplay, your own player agency being press forward while pretentious liberals jerk themselves off to their own writing.

>>7467186

I think visual novels are fine, because they literally have 'novel' in the name, so they're already admitting they're basically a story that you can interact with, idk.

Story is absolutley fine, though not necessary. I say go for the most bombastic, insane plotline you can come up with as long as you know GAMEPLAY needs to hold it up. i dare say, story elements can pull a player in deeper and meld with the gameplay, not a personal pick, but i know thats how FromSoft does a lot of the lore for the Souls games through subtle game play aspects such as items or perhaps a bosses attacks reflecting something about the plot

>>7466921
Disagree, it's a blanket statement that's true sometimes, not true at other times. Yes, who cares if ID-games have story or not, they are about shooting interesting enemies with interesting guns. But take away the story of a game like Morrowind, what's left? Not much, that game is basically a vehicle for the story and setting (and is one of the best RPG's out there).

>>7466932
And it was a boring game. It's barren, lacks content.

>>7467050
I bet you your life that if I took your favourite game, removed everything that's not strictly part of your definition of game (a system of rules), then you'd be utterly bored with it.

Enjoy [insert FPS game here] with no sound effects, no textures, all models are replaced with gray non-animated cubes, no context/setting/story etc.

>>7467165
>Little game called Doom

Doom had a story, and a pretty involved one at that (for the genre at the time). It had a wall of text explaining the story at the end of each episode.

>>7467194
>a game with bad gameplay is bad regardless of writing or production value

I counter you with Morrowind. You can't tell me Morrowind has good gameplay, you just can't. The game is more than the sum of its parts.

>>7467502
Competitive Quake players often played with no textures to better contrast opponents with the background

>>7467502
WTF? You've gone way beyond the limitations of minimizing story. Even chess has more details than that.
>>7467503
>It had a wall of text explaining the story at the end of each episode.
So a few paragraphs of story, per episode, and not during gameplay.
"It's expected to be there, but it's not that important."
Also I don't know how you can say Doom had involved story for the genre when it was one of the first games of the genre.
Do I really need to start listing /vr/ games with more story?

>>7467143
Just that there's never been a good story in a video game.

>>7467504
>You can't tell me Morrowind has good gameplay, you just can't.
What is the gameplay of an open world WRPG? Combat, character progression, exploration, questing, and dialog.
The combat's pretty bad in most areas. I can make a better argument in favor of it, but I'll give this as a freebie since it's jank as hell.
The leveling is wonky but functional, but the items are great. The alchemy set the standard that none of the following games met.
Exploration is top notch, another best in series. It's rewarding, novel, and well crafted.
The quests are usually complex, some are linear or fetch quests but there is a lot of variety and the larger ones are very well designed.
Dialog. Once again, best in the series, which matters because story is in fact part of the gameplay in a Role Playing Game, checkmate Carmack.
But seriously, Morrowind does have good gameplay.

>>7466921
>It's expected to be there
no

>>7467190
>seethed hard

>>7466921
Disagree. Depends on the game.

>>7466921
It really depends on the type of game. Ideally for any game, all aspects will be fantastic including story, but a point and click needs a good story a hell of a lot more than a shmup.
Having a good context to involve you emotionally with the action of the game does help though. I highly doubt Devil May Cry 3 would have its reputation as one of the best action games ever made if it didn't have an amazing story with ridiculously high budget cutscenes and was just a bunch of meaningless random fighting in rooms.

>>7466921
Modern games are only heavily focused on story because the people involved on them are not skilled enough to make something good, so they compensate with a truckload of shit stories and a very basic gameplay to serve that story #4daplayas

>>7467727
Dumb take.

>>7467502
I don't know how you can bet my life on your projected opinions after I make a post like that.
Obviously I would and do enjoy it, hence why I wrote it.

This >>7467579
but with most FPS games, among others.
It's very easy to play a game for the gameplay longer than anything else. You think I replay doom for the graphics, sound, or story. It basically melts away into nothing inherently.

When it comes to most multiplayer games, things like music sound settings get turned to 0 and swapped out with my own pretty quickly. I want to play the game. The game is what's fun and the only unique aspect of video games.
If I wanted good music, good art, good etc. I'd go for media that puts it as primary. In the same way something marketed as a "game" should prioritize gameplay above all other aspect.

Someone else pointed out as well that things like the OoT randomizer exist.
They take a game that's well regarded, remove all critical story text, remove any semblance of order, change the graphics literally at random, and as it turns out, the game is still good in one of its distilled and shuffled forms.
Scenario for scenario, all variables changed, the game is purely good and a lot of people choose to play it. 20 years post release.

That image divides puzzles from games but if you include Puzzle games then this is infinitely more true.
You think anyone cares about the magical fairy girls story in puzzle game #749357578476
Is it the graphics that make people want to play Tetris? etc.

>>7466921
It explains why he hasn't put out an interesting game in the last 20 years.

>>7466921
Carmack is just a hack that posts nonsensical ramblings on twitter and works for kikebook. He literally has done nothing since building the doom and quake engines.

It's like shut the fuck up and go back to making FPS game engines faggot.

>>7467743
>>>/v/
>>>/lgbt/
>>>/reddit/

>>7467579
So? That has almost nothing to do with what I wrote

>>7467609
>WTF?

The point is: A video game is comprised of different parts. The parts each have importance, to varying degrees depending on genre. You can't just say "it's a game therefore story is useless" (well you can, but it's retarded)

>So a few paragraphs of story, per episode, and not during gameplay
It still had a story, and a setting that was heavily influenced by that story. More so than many contemporary games, though not all of course. Thus the quote rings a bit hollow when not even he who made it follows it

>Do I really need to start listing /vr/ games with more story?
Do whatever you want, but cherrypicking never proved anything

>>7467617
Quests can not be considered part of the gameplay , but not story, since they are entirely based on how well they are written, as is the dialogue. That's more part of the story of the game, imo. The gameplay would pretty much be the moving around, the combat, possibly how the levelling system is structured.

>>7467786
>Obviously I would and do enjoy it, hence why I wrote it
I too know how to lie

>>7466921
if he was a women the tables would be reversed

Depends on the game.

>>7467050
>>7467786
Yikes

>>7467502
>responding to copypasta

>>7466921
I would agree, but games can put a strong focus on story if there is little to no combat/gameplay rather than bad combat/gameplay. I would consider adventure games and """RPGs""" like Disco Elysium that are basically adventure games with dice rolls to fall in this category. They may be closer to interactive novels and puzzles than pure games, but they are generally considered video games, so there is reason to have games that emphasize story and visuals at the expense of gameplay. For the sake of clarity, any RPG that does intend to have frequent combats should make fleshing out that system their top priority. If you're too lazy to make an interesting RPG system, just make an adventure game.

>>7467850
>>7467926
>>7467942
You're on a retro game image board on the weekend. What are you expecting?
People to not like video games? People to not talk about video games? People to lie about liking video games?
What mental disorder is this?

>>7466921
BIG
AGREE

I never really understood why people gave Story such a big weight when the medium is actually made to fucking P L A Y, it literally has game in the name! It's partly the reason why everything is going to shit right now and everyone gets rid of trademark videogame elements in order to embrace "immersion" for all the s o y faces who want to have a "unique story experience"

>>7466921
Then why most eroge has fuck huge stories?

>>7466921
>mostly enjoy lengthy VNs for my porn
Uhhhhh

>>7466921
100%, lorefags have autism

Was he right, /vr/?

>>7466921
Yes with the only exception being Conkers Bad Fur Day, which was written so intelligently that it still isn't fully appreciated

>>7467828
Not an argument.

>>7467171

>>7467201
A walking simulator is a game where you walk down a series of setpieces and things happen. The most gameplay thats involved is "click E to activate next setpiece". Stalker is far from a walking simulator.

>>7467061
That's how I feel too. Gameplay > music > atmosphere in order of importance for me, and then I want just enough of a decent story to enhance that atmosphere.

But I guess there are a lot of people who don't care that much about gameplay who would disagree, they don't desire deep mechanics and having to figure out how to play, they just want the gameplay to be minimal interference between cutscenes. I don't really understand how anyone enjoys that though, it's like watching a movie but having to press buttons on a remote to start and continue every scene which feels tedious.

>>7466927
>fun jap games with no story
Where, its all story with shitty gameplay outside of party games.

>>7466921
Agree to a certain extent but it's worth noting Carmack himself would later change his mind on that with Doom 3.

Either way: True Chads Choose Carmack
TCCC™
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X68Mm_kYRjc

>>7466921
I do agree.

>>7467171
>You missed the point but nobody cares
>SEETHE REKT COPIUM RENT FREE
imagine being this fragile

Conditional. For Carmack's games he's largely correct, Doom is much better without a real "story" (see: Doom3 and some of the shit in nuDoom) but there are games where a story can help bring the world to life and really motivate the player.

There's not a binary yes/no answer.

>>7466921
True for any games that are not RPGs or Adventure. Those need story and lore. Everything else can do without it.

>>7468083
>>7468265
seethe harder little man

>>7466921
strongly agree, story is only distracting

The problem with story in games is that most writers, from retro times to today, are complete hacks. Most of the games heralded as having great stories cant compete against halfway-decent films or books.

It depends, some games can take advantage of a story or even be story focused, but yes some games would do better without any real story.

Like I really wish they kept the story minimal for the likes of Sonic and Pokemon as more story made the game less enjoyable particularly in Pokemons case because you cant just skip the friendship fixes everything cookie cutter dialogue, now they are even adding unskipable cut scenes.

>>7466921
Disagree. Story can mean so much, even if it's just the art-style or environment. Carmack has no say in the matter, because he's a coder and it's all he's good at.

>>7466932
and got BTFO by unreal tournament.

I don't think there's a single one-size-fits-all answer to this question.

To some extent arcadey, gameplay focused games and those that basically interactive cartoons/novels are going for totally different things and can't directly be compared.

I agree and that's why i hate all modern games. here is a never ending cut scene (you sometimes can't skip) and here is another one. here is a never ending badly written dialogue of a character you couldn't care less about. gaming should be about game play. all modern games are like interactive movies where you can play a bit between cut scenes.
Hideo Kojima can also fuck off. dude shouldn't have gone straight to film but his stuff is too embarrassing to be turned into a film so instead he makes "games" with awkward cut scenes that take AGES. do you fucking know what a GAME is, Hideo? sorry no one let you make movies so you have to exploit the video game medium.

>>7466921
At the time this was true but now coomers can't get their nut unless it's "step sibling or some other fetish tier shit involved

Disagree.

>>7466921
Disagree. I personally don't mind cutscenes if they are important, but I have to agree they are a problem because they interrupt gameplay instead of telling the story through it, I think we are at a transitional period where games are still figuring out how to implement the story through interactivity, it's really hard to remove cutscenes from games if you want to make a more complex story, but I have seen some games trying to change that, Obra Dinn for example does this extremely well even if the story itself is nothing remarkable.

>>7466921
Not necessarily, it depends on the game. It's good to have some games that emphasize story more, and some games where the story isn't the main focus. Variety is nice.

>>7469110
Kojima makes long cutscenes, but his games also have great gameplay, usually with lots of fun options for messing around and interesting secrets. I think Kojima does a better job than most telling game stories.

>>7469984
>but his games also have great gameplay,
Lmfao, Kojimadrones actually believe this...

>>7466921
I can't ejaculate if there's no story (at least if I have fapped that day or even the day before, when I'm more starved it doesn't take much to come).

>>7466921
if someone asks me about a game i played i don't wanna be like
>it's about so-and-so and there's this and that
i'd much rather say
>so i was at so-and-so doing this and that
in other words, it's my story

IMO, the problem with modern games isn't that they give too much focus on story. It's that they try to present their stories like a blockbuster movie, with constant scripted spectacle setpieces and cutscenes galore. Even the "RPGs" of today can't escape this at times.

>>7468195
Never played a bullet hell, have you?

>>7470467
Meanwhile games like Animal Crossing, Stardew Valley, and Undertale being widely successful and well received shows that people want games with characters they will enjoy interacting with or see interacting with each other. The Tales series is built heavily on this to where fans go ballistic if the characters aren't good but the game and story is, and Mana Khemia despite being one of the weaker Atelier games gets praise for its cast.

>>7466921

Definitely agree. The moment when games started to prioritise story and 'experience' over actual well-designed gameplay was when shit started to go downhilll

>>7466921
agree, that's why Doom 3 with its fucking PDAs fucking SUCKS

>>7468754
Pokemon being an RPG, it should have more story and dialog to get me invested.

>>7467504
but Morrowind is a crap game, lol

>>7466921
lore > narrative

>>7466932
And it was extremely dull if you weren't into multiplayer.

This entire thread is just /v/.

>>7471308
>being an RPG requires story
Why? Is it not enough for you that your goal is to collect all the badges, beat the elite 4, and complete the pokedex if that's your thing.

The story is what you make it, who the fuck cares about the idiotic goals of some team that wants more land or more water. Pokemon should have placed importance on making your journey through the region unique to the player instead of making everyone's playthrough the destined 10 year who is the only one capable of stopping a major crime syndicate and battling literal gods.

>>7466921
I disagree, if only cause there have been plenty of great video game stories that have carried otherwise just okay games. A retro example would be Planescape.
A story doesn't make a game good by default though and bad stories can also exist. This doesn't mean that story in video games can't be important though, just like gameplay in a game can be bad but that doesn't mean that gameplay isn't important.

>>7470471
Terrible example since bullet hells are one of the worst genres out there that suffer from stale copy paste gameplay and a complete lack of anything original or interesting.
Once you've played like 6 bullet hells you've basically played them all.

>>7466921
No. He's sure is great programmer, but just like almost all natural born mathematicians he's one big autist. So naturally he can't into abstract artistry shit like art direction, aesthetic, story and delivery. Sure you can bring up Quake and Doom as games with pretty unique and distinct style but such qualities were acquired by, well, sheer luck.

>>7466921
I think story can really elevate games. The problem is, even in 2021, games are still kind of seen as kids' stuff. Sure, more people might play games now. But only manchildren really get into them. So the standards are lax to the point that writers that would fail in the film, television, novel, or even comic industries can find success and even awards in video game by doing the exact same shit that kept them from getting hired in those other industries.

>>7466921
We don't even know if he holds this same opinion now, the quote is from the early 90s. And to me he never seemed like the kind of person to care about the game part, he just wanted to make new code to do shit people thought was impossible at the time.

>>7468195
uhh plataformers?

Both Carmack and Miyamoto agree on the same principles and both are ones who have pushed the industry foward more than anyone else

>>7466921
>this is what anti-storyfags want all games to look like

Disagree. I was playing the new Mario last night and actually thinking about this sort of logic. I shuddered when I thought of a video game landscape that never evolved past bing bing wahoo.

>>7468059
He said this, then offered nothing of value to compete with them on the N64. He forced Nintendo to rely on a fucking Western developer and sales in the US to keep the N64 alive. I don't know what the logic behind the N64 was, did he truly think no one would ever be impressed by a big cinematic game like FFVII?

>>7466921
It depends on what genre the game is. Games like Doom and Mario don't need a good story but it would have been nice if it did. RPGs however need good stories for people to care.

>>7466921
agree. the key here is...it's not THAAAAAT important. you can have story in a game. that's cool. have your text scroll, cutscene, dialog, etc. but get it the fuck out of the way of my game. i don't play games FOR story. many normies do.

>>7472246
would still play over final fantasy

>>7473080
This

>>7466921
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Every aspect of a game is a component in a machine; if one part is shit, the machine will be shit.

>>7466921
I have no idea who this retarded faggot is but he is 100% dead fucking wrong and he needs to be canceled.

>>7466921
I agree. If I wanted a good story, I'd read a book.