/vr/ - Retro Games

Fuck off back to your containment thread.

>>7274185
NOOOOOO NOT MY HECKIN CRT THREADERINO

>>7274185
We need more threads about retro games.

>>7274170
cuz you can go up down left right forward and backward thats 3 dimension of movement

>>7274170
>ignoring time dimension

>>7274170
>neeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrd

>>7274170
ok i'm interested in hearing your reasoning, how is doom not a 3D game and since when does this debate even exist

The only 2D thing are the maps themselves that are planes
But on top of the 2D plane they contain instructions on the height of eveything and where to build walls
Everything else is either 3D or a deliberate choice to save processing power

>>7274209

You stay stationary throughout the entire game. Your "movement" is the manipulation of a 2D picture being displayed infront of you.

>>7274349
You move left/right and forwards/backwards, but there is no *freedom* to move upwards beyond elevators or ramps, so at best its pseudo 3D. You can't aim on the y axis, and if there are enemies above on a different plane, you really just shoot directly in front of you and the bullets magically hit the enemy.

>>7274391
Sure, there are no models so nothing is modeled three-dimensionally in the way that we do now, but the way it works is pretty cool, and I'd argue it's just as 3D as anything we make now. What we make now is just more obviously 3D since we literally model them as if in a 3D space, but in the end it's just numbers determining where things are and how they are structured, and then rays from the camera determining what each pixel of the screen should show.

>>7274410
So if I don't include vertical movement it's not a 3D game, regardless of how it's made?

>>7274209
you can go all 4 ways, its 3d

>>7274424
yes. there are very few 3d games, only 2d games with 3d graphics.

It used to be called a 2.5D game.

>>7274391
that's literally every game.

>>7274391
mind = blown

>>7274391
yeah the manipulation goes in 3 different dimensions

>>7274410
So if you walked off the edge above the pit of acid in your own OP image, >>7274170, would you be able to simply back up and be standing back on the edge, or did the different elevation have an effect on your gameplay?

>>7274531
It would, but the lack of freedom to fully interact with your environment in 3D is why it's not true 3D. 3D space exists, but the player only really has freedom to move in 2D.

>>7274784
I just gave you a counterexample that refuted what you replied to it with. I'm not sure what else to say. You interact with the space in a third dimension. Did you mean to say it made poor use of its 3-dimensional nature?

>>7274170
>it doesn't have 6 degrees of freedom, therefore it isn't 3D
kys.

>>7274424
Correct.

>>7274349
I'm not him, my reasoning is there isn't a third vanishing point

>>7274380
>either
Just Pseudo-3D

>>7274443
>>7274453

No? I don't even know how to address this, because its so fundamentaly wrong. Just, no.

>>7274391
Why do they call games 3D when you sit in the same place not moving at all while playing them? They should be called 1D. Checkmate, atheists.

>>7274170
It was called 2.5D back in the 90s.

Graphics weren't true 3D (hence terms like pseudo-3D and 2.5D to describe it), but since elevation affects gameplay, the gameplay is 3D. If you want to know more about the oddities of the Doom engine, such as its inability to have any walkable area above or below another - and how some maps cleverly gave the appearance otherwise - just come to the FPS thread and ask an FPSchad.

>>7274391
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RtMMupdOC4

>>7275290
>He thinks hes right.
Cute

I've always considered Doom a 2D game. It looks 2D as fuck to me. Do 3D background models in a 2D game make it 3D?

>>7275687
MEDS.
NOW.

>>7274170
they do? why does this bother you?

>>7274438
Gayming forums in the 00's used to refer to Quake as the first fully 3D FPS, to differentiate from games like Duke 3D and Blood, which were 3D but had sprite art enemies and objects. Then there was Doom, which they called 2.5D. I wonder how many of these concepts still stand to this day.

>>7275726
Left is from a 2D game, right is from a 3D game.

>>7275793
you do realize what a 3D game is, do you?
Yes the sprites are 2D, but the engine and gameplay are 3D.

If you can't get that, then I'm sorry,
I can't deal with sub 100IQ individuals

good luck in your life

>>7274170
>areas have height and width
>all entities in the game have a defined height and width (and mass)
>elevators and platforms can go up and down
>level geometry will block movement depending on height, a platform moving upwards can get in the way of a character or projectile and stop it right there
>whether or not the player or a monster can scale stairs will depend individually based on their hitboxes
>you can fall down
>you can be launched into the air by explosions
>some enemies can fly
>some enemies fall when they die, their death animation finishing when they hit the floor
>projectiles and attacks can fly above an entity's hitbox and continue past them
>projectiles can move upwards and downwards
>if an item is too far down when you move over it, you cannot pick it up

It seems that maybe you are confused by the fact that the game deliberately skips calculations for a few things, as well as Doom's vertical auto-aim.

>>7274391
>>7274410
>>7274435
>>7275234
>>7274784
These are all really weak semantic arguments.

>>7276080
>Yes the sprites are 2D
its a 2d game

>, but the engine and gameplay are 3D.
Tons of 2D games are 3D by that logic.

>>7276605
You stupid retard.
If you take Half Life 2 and replace all the 3D models with 2D cardboard cutouts that automatically face the camera, will not make it a 2D game.
The world is in 3D and you can explore in 3D.

I really hope you are trolling, because if you are not, then you are beyond saving at this point.

>>7276605

>>7275290
Every game is just manipulations of 2D pictures on your monitor.

>>7274170
I mean, video games are already an illusion so aren't we just splitting hairs at this point?

>I've always considered Doom a 2D game

>>7274170
>Hey, some guy on the internet said it's 2D, that makes it true!

That stupid retard doesn't even see the contradiction in his own video. Thank God he's dead.

>environment is 3D
>character only moves in 2D
It's a 2D game

>character only moves in 2D

>>7274239

I'm struggling hard in the Valiant Map 09, It's looks harder than the final map from the third chapter from Eviternity, but I won't use save

>>7277134
The character can move in 3 dimensions, so that is incorrect.

>>7277168
No, the character only moves left/right and forwards/backwards with pseudo up/down movement via ramps/elevators.

>>7277179
So he moves in 3 directions..

>pseudo up/down movement

>>7277185
No, he only moves in 2 dimensions.

>>7277179
Or you know, rocket jumps and gravity.

>pseudo up/down movement
Fucking retard faggot.

>>7277179
>>7274531 >So if you walked off the edge above the pit of acid in your own OP image, >>7274170 (OP), would you be able to simply back up and be standing back on the edge, or did the different elevation have an effect on your gameplay?
Answer this question.

>>7277360
The character cannot jump or crouch, and only moves up/down via elevators and ramps. You only have the freedom to move in 2D, thus the game is 2D.
>>7277660
I already did

>>7277706
If I break your legs and immobilize your head, will you turn into a 2D entity?

>>7274391
Congratulations, you have discovered how televisions work

>>7277706
>You only have the freedom to move in 2D
Incorrect, you can drop down ledges on your own volition (or be pushed off of a ledge), and you can also use enemy attacks to launch you upwards, this can be exploited to reach up onto ledges, which isn't even intended by the devs, it's just them thinking it would be cool if the attack sent you flying up into the air as a visual, but they did it by actually throwing the player physically upwards in the space of the world.

If there was no actual height in the game, this would not be possible.

Some things are 2d as far as I know (the maps, so you cannot have overlapping floors). But some elements are still in 3d. Player position is calculated in a 3d space, as well as projectiles. If it was 2d projectiles couldn't miss you vertically. Some elements are confusing, tho. Ennemies have infinite height so no matter where they are onscreen they are in front of you. You can eat invisible goblin punches from way below,and you cannot go under a cacodemon. Your path is blocked even if the cacodemon is way above you. As far as I know that's more of an oversight. Ennemies have infinite height, they aren't 2d.

>>7277858
>Enemies have infinite height so no matter where they are onscreen they are in front of you
Well, "infinite height" is a phrase that's used a lot, but it's kind of a misnomer, they all have a defined height (the Revenant's defined height is actually a bit lower than his actual sprites, for instance), so they can't fit underneath ceilings too low for them, or a door closing in front of them before they can clear it (and the tallest guy under a crusher starts getting mashed first), but the game doesn't make a different check for collision even if you're above them. Likewise, if you can't actually see the enemy, and he's way down below, your attacks will pass over his head if it's actually above his hitbox, while if he's visible, and within range, the vertical auto-aim will try to adjust your shots downwards towards him.

Heretic is on the same engine, and actually does calculate for collision above a Thing, letting you pass above an enemy or stand on top of him.

>As far as I know that's more of an oversight
I think they just didn't bother with the calculation, since the original game doesn't actually use very much 'verticality' in its levels at all. Doom 2's maps are a lot less flat, and they could probably have updated the engine very slightly for that, but for whatever reason didn't (perhaps they figured the performance savings were worth it).

Also, just to add for the argument about height, Cacodemons will actually have to descend or ascend to get an angle on you if you go in under a ledge or into a tunnel, as level geometry will block them from shooting at you.

I wouldn't be surprised if OP has not once looked at the source code, and has never actually programmed in his life.

>>7278130
I've never looked at the source code, and I can tell you OP is retarded based on how the game behaves when you play it.

>>7277706
Then you need to reread it and assess what the answer to that question MEANS, because your movement in 3D space having an effect means that it affects your gameplay and thus plays as a 3D game. Go over the question and answer it as many times as you need to understand this.

>>7274391
no games are 3D because you play them on a monitor with 2 Dimensions

>>7274410
>but there is no *freedom* to move upwards beyond elevators or ramps

So? This is literally "nuuh uhh that doesn't count". Fuck you fake opinion fag

>>7274438
"2.5D" is not a technical term. Doom is a 3D game because it have a Z axis and a height value. That's it.

>>7274784
You are fucking retarded.

>>7276091
/thread

>>7274391
How are you sure that's not how reality works?

>>7277179
>pseudo up/down movement
>character's z axis variable gets changed
>character's z axis is checked against geometry for collision, falling, collision with enemy rockets, etc.

Not allowing overlapping sectors vertically is just a map restriction for optimization, it doesn't mean the map doesn't describe 3d areas, which it clearly does.

>>7274170
Projectiles can fly above you

>>7274391
retarded logic

Doom is 2.5D, it has 2D graphics, but 3D movement.

>>7275747
After the PS1 came out 2.5D was also used to describe games like Pandemonium where they rendered in real 3D with polygons but the player's movement was restricted to a 2D plane. This 2D plane would often rotate to follow the level geometry such that you were moving around in full X,Y,Z but you never had control of what the forward/back vector actually did.

>>7274391
While you're being facetious, here's something that might blow your mind. The player as the "camera" is not actually moving around from the perspective of the 3D engine. The player's camera is the origin point and all the world geometry is transformed relative to the inverse of the origin point. In that way you are more right than you might have thought. From the perspective of the rasteriser, the game world moves around you, not the other way around.

>>7280953
Doom's renderer takes into account 3 dimensions for each object displayed aside from the HUD, so that part is 3d.

The main restriction in the graphics is that it only supports 4 degrees of freedom (fully unrestricted would be 6, but vanilla doom doesn't support rolling or pitching of the camera).

>>7274784
By that logic, someone in a wheelchair exists in a 2 dimensional world

I don't give a shit, honestly.
I started playing Doom 2016 (fantastic) recently and had The Ultimate Doom, but never installed it, now I did and I'm having a blast. The sound and look of everything is so satisfying just to kill lots of enemies.

>>7274391
All of the pixels on your monitor that you're looking at are NOT the game.
They are APPROXIMATIONS of what's happening with the code.
If you want to be the ultimate faggot then all of it doesn't matter anyway because you're trusting the chemicals and electrical activity in your brain to tell you what you're seeing is correct. So you're just a trusting cuck to other's truths.

>>7276858
Fact do matter. Not your shitposting, anon.

>>7281589
You ignore facts anyway. See: this entire thread.

>>7280569
That's pretty deep man..

you can literally have an enemy projectile fly above your head. (would hit you in x/y but has different z so it doesn't)
or fire a rocket down a staircase because of autoaim and have it fly at an angle and not hit the wall above. (happens in e1m4 for example)
or some secrets can only be accessed by walking off of a higher platform and landing on/beyond a wall that you can't normally climb over. that implies there's a z component to your position.

>>7276605
> Tons of 2D games are 3D by that logic.
Super Mario Bros. is 2D.
New Super Mario Bros. is 2D despite containing 3D geometry for certain objects.
Super Mario 3D Land/World is 3D.

If Sonic 3D Blast is 3D, Doom is. Both make use of elevation and height in gameplay and it makes a difference. I'm sorry that you didn't see a polygon and got scared, anon.

>>7274410
>but there is no *freedom*

There's literally code for handling movement on the z-axis in the game.

Doom is a 3D game. If you can't accept it being in the actual game code, then you are just factually wrong.

literally nobody says Doom is a 3D game, this is a troll thread predicated on a strawman argument.
Doom is a 2.5d game. The gameplay itself is 2d, but the levels of the game incorporate depth.

>>7285709
>the levels of the game incorporate depth
They don't; visualization/rendering does. Height has no weight on the gameplay at all beyond that.

>>7285712
>Height has no weight on the gameplay at all beyond that.
Factually incorrect. You cannot walk up sheer walls in Doom unless they are under something like 16 units (so, stairs).

>>7285713
So?

>>7275747
System Shock had a full 3D space first and Terminator Future Shock was a full 3D FPS in 1995.

>>7285312
OP is a faggot but the Doom engine couldn't render a full 3D block. It lacks the bottom floor.

>>7274170
in a sense no game is 3d anon

>>7274410
holy shit anon. 3d = 3 dimensions. you can move up and down, left and right, and forward and backward. That's 3.

>>7275793
doom eternal/16 have sprites too for things like smoke and blood.
actually, the pinky on the right is really just a bunch of sprites anyway, all connected and tilted in different directions.

>>7276858
Who are you quoting?

>enemies have infinite height to compensate for the fact that you can only aim left/right and forwards/backwards because the game is not really 3D but we will pretend it is
The state of Doomcucks

>>7286014
The hit detection doesn't ignore the z-axis, if a monster is down in a pit and you shoot over the pit, the attack will pass over him, the vertical auto-aim only works if the monster is actually in your view.

>>7286014

>>7285012
>If Sonic 3D Blast is 3D

>>7285794
Dimension translates to the mere existence of an axis in space, not to one's capacity of movement in said axis.

>102 posts
why do people reply to these idiot fucking threads

>>7274170
Well kinda

>>7285012
Sonic 3D Blast is cosmetically 3D, Doom is spatially 3D.

>>7285776
This has nothing to do with something being 3 dimensional.

>>7286424
>not to one's capacity of movement in said axis.
This is why we say 2.5D

>>7274170
Doom, like all video games, is a 2D projection. None are 3D. The only 3D games we have are real-life games like chess, battleship, and sports.

>>7274170
Why do people pretend Doom is not a 3D game? They even have to invent their own unique definition of "3D", that does not match mathematical or geometric definitions, for it to fit their narrative.

>>7286014
Infinite height only applies to monster/monster/player collision, and was done to simplify the calculations.
Collision detection for projectiles and hitscan still used all 3 coordinates.
Next game on exact same engine - Heretic - implemented full collision detection for every object so you could run on decorations like barrels and fly over/under monsters with wings of wrath powerup

>>7288449
2.5D on itself is a misnomer, used only in videogame discussion. It means that either graphics or gameplay present only 2 dimensions while another presents 3.
Examples: RCT has height in its gameplay (even if its descrete), but doesen't show it visually. Players say it's a 2.5D game.
Pandemonium shows environment with 3 dimensions, but player is only allowed to move in 2. The gameplay is 2D, while environment is 3D, so Pandemonium is considered a 2.5D game.
Wolfenstein 3D/BlakeStone/Catacomb Abyss - they show 3 dimensions visually, but no player or monster can move in Z-axis. It is a 2.5D game.

Doom presents all 3 dimensions visually, player, enemies and all other entities have the capacity of movement in all 3 dimensions. It uses 3 dimensions in both gameplay and visuals, so it is a proper 3D game.
The room-over room limitation is irrelevant, unless you invent your own retarded definition of "3D" so you could clame whatever inane bullshit you want.

>>7288449
Fuck right off. That's like saying that my goddam apartment in reality is 2.5D because I can't fucking fly to the 3rd floor, and have to use stairs or an elevator.

if this game was totally 2D then why do projectiles have a vertical factor that allow you to go above and beneath them? and yes I know the rocket explosions are infinite height

>>7288538
You can jump/crouch and move your head around freely to look in the up/down position and at various angles though.

>>7289212
Argument rotates back to >>7286424

>>7289212
you can go up/down on elevators in Doom though
You can freely fly in all dimensions in Heretic too