/vr/ - Retro Games

something something isometric something something pre-rendered

>>6816886
Real 3D has never been tried.

>>6816886
They mean the game levels/map doesn't allow for platforms being above and below each other. It's kinda a bullshit reason to act as if it isn't 3D.

>>6816968
So is Build engine true 3D? I think levels can overlap each other on those games.

doom is just 2d made to look 3d
it's only made to look good in x and z axis which is why aiming vertically in the non-doom doom engine games looks like shit

>>6816892
That's an entirely different kind of fake 3D. OP is talking about stuff like Doom where you can't have rooms on top of each other and shit.

>>6816978
That would make them considered "true". It's honestly an arbitrary line to draw, or at least a poor choice of terminologies.

>>6816886
It's because the player character and enemies are 2D sprites, while the environment is 3D, making them 2.5D shooters.
While games like Quake only have polygons, making them actually 3D.

>>6817105
That's not accurate. They aren't considered 2.5D just because of sprite enemies. The levels cannot be observed in true 3D. Looking up and down only skews the walls to simulate a 3D space. You aren't actually rotating a camera in a 3D arena.

>>6816886
>>6817162

we had this thread like 2 days ago

stop inventing your own "akchually it is X" definitions
3D means 3 dimensions
Doom uses 3 dimensions in its graphics
It uses 3 dimensions in its gameplay
limitations imposed on it due to optimisations and map formats (like not allowing ROR) are completely irrelevant for that matter. By arguing the opposite you only show your lack of intellect or willingnes to see that you may be wrong

By gods I swear after that "Gametheory" idiots posted their stupid vid, every argument from which was pretty much immediately disproven as factually false with links to the source code and practical examples, retarded shit like this started to pop up with astounding regularity.
Stop parroting braindead e-celebs and start thinking for yourself

>>6817105
Thaqt's not what 2.5 D means, and whether enemies are sprites or not is completely irrelevant. You can make a game fuly 3D but have every actor be sprite, it wont be any less 3D.
2.5D isn't even a real thing. It's a misnmer for when either visuals or gameplay don't present a way to change all 3 axis, while another part presents all 3.
In Doom you can both move within 3 dimensions, and visuals represent 3 dimensions. Case closed.

>>6817075
Arbitrary? Not at all. Doom is 2D, Duke Nukem is 2.5D (elements of 2D and 3D), Quake is 3D. You are viewing a bunch of sprites at different angles and sizes in Doom and the playing space is 2d only. Now that's pretty clearcut.

>But 2.5D is stupid terminology, there are no 2.5D polygons.
I think the terminology is fine, think of it as an idiomatic number. Even in real math you have similar irregular ideas sometimes.

>>6817180
>Stop parroting braindead e-celebs and start thinking for yourself
I'm not one of the "doom isn't real 3d" fags, but why do so many use that dumb gametheory video as scapegoat? You never at any point played Doom with automap and IDDT on and made the same conjecture?

>>6817180
I haven't viewed a single e-celeb discussing the topic. Stop using their videos as a reason everyone else's view is invalid.

>>6817209
>Duke Nukem is 2.5D
How do you figure? His "look up and down" is just skewing. It's not really more 3D than Doom unless you have insight to some element I'm not privy to.

>>6817213
>>6817223
i brought it up because all the arguments are exactly same as that dumb vid, almost word for word. It's hard to believe someone isn't coming from watchingt when they repeat exact same arguments in exact same fashion. And all of them have already been discussed and disproven numerous times both here and on forums like Doomworld.

Ability to look up/down, using sprites for objects, or not having Room-Over-Room have absolutely no bearing on whether or not something is 3D.
Those are arbitrary requirements you set for yourself.
3D means 3 dimensions. Doom uses all 3 in both visduals and gameplay.
Can be proven both practically and via the code.

>>6817235
bruh duke clearly shoots up and down in innumerable different ways, so do many of the enemies. He also clearly goes up and down multiple levels all the time, did you play this game.

>>6817298
>It's hard to believe someone isn't coming from watchingt when they repeat exact same arguments in exact same fashion.
It's almost like it's a reasonable argument and a common knowledge limitation of the engine. Hell, maybe they took the opinion from us discussing it in past threads.

>>6817313
In what way is Duke's "shooting up" different from Doom? In what ways is Duke's "going up" different from Doom? Both Duke and Doom have elevation and vertical aim correction. Duke having a jump button is not enough for me to tack on a "0.5" dimensions.

>>6817298
Dumbass clown everyone knows Doom is 2D for the past 25 years. You're the zoomer coming in with all this youtube trash, stop bluffing and gtfo.

>>6817340
Vertical look and elevation in Doom is just trickery. Even if there is one or two possibilities on a z-axis it still doesn't make it 3d. There has to be innumerable z-axis. Otherwise beat-em-ups would be considered 3d. Do you accept that Wolfenstein is 2D?

>>6817383
>Vertical look and elevation in Doom is just trickery.
Doom doesn't have a "look up and down." Not without source ports. What you described is Duke 3D. And it's still trickery. It's literally skewing the walls, not rotating a camera.

>>6817340
Hexen is in same engine and has jump button, as well as object-over object and limited ROR.
>>6817419
Both Heretic and Hexen on exact same engine have look up/down in exact same technique Duke uses.

>>6817346
>"everyone knows Doom is 2D for the past 25 years"
zoom zoom
Discussions on the topic started back when Quake came out. And most people agreed that Doom was 3D, even if it was limited and worse implementation than Quake.

also
Carmack said it's 3D.

>>6817383
>>6817180
>It's a misnomer for when either visuals or gameplay don't present all 3 axis
Betemups are 2.5 D because while they present 3 axis in gameplay, they don't present 3 axis visually - sprite just moves up and down, not "in and out".
Wolfenstein is similarily 2.5D in a different way, while it presents 3 axis visually (and very limited), it only has 2 axis in gameplay.

>>6817427
>Both Heretic and Hexen on exact same engine have look up/down in exact same technique Duke uses.
That's fine, but I never claimed "the engine couldn't do it." He said "Vertical look IN DOOM." It's not in Doom. Even if it's in later idtech 1 games.

it's actual autism. nobody would consider doom 2d but the autists on here who were no doubt also insufferable smart asses at school who nobody liked. you move around a clearly 3d space, you can peek around corners, your perspective is constantly changing as you move thru the world. there are no fixed cameras. you move thru the environment. 3d. it literally does not matter what your autistic technical distinctions are. everybody in the world with eyes recognises doom as a 3d game. that is the only definition that matters

>>6817427
Imagine someone trying to argue that Doom is 3D and Duke Nukem is 2D.

>>6817450
What the sacriligious fuck are you talking about? I said "vertical look in Doom is trickery", as in any vertical look that's implemented or appears to be in Doom is trickery. I was placating you. You're the one trying to somehow argue Doom is 3D and has some sort of vertical shit remember?

>>6817479
Looks 2D to me

>>6817427
I'm willing to agree to the perspective that Doom is 3D, but the average beat-em-up is absolutely not 3D. There is no rendering of a third dimension, even if it is calculating your jump height in some form. Rendering is the important aspect people actually care about when discussing 3-dimensionality in games.

>>6817479
>as in any vertical look that's implemented or appears to be in Doom is trickery.
There is NO VERTICAL LOOK IN DOOM. I don't know how I can be causing confusion here. There's no uncertainty in what I said. DOOM HAS NO LOOK UP AND DOWN.

>I was placating you. You're the one trying to somehow argue Doom is 3D
I'm not. I never claimed Doom is 3D. I'm asking how you award Build an extra .5 dimensions when it's the same as Doom but with mild perspective stretching and a jump button.

>>6817493
>the average beat-em-up is absolutely not 3D. There is no rendering of a third dimension

>>6817427
>Betemups are 2.5D because while they present 3 axis in gameplay, they don't present 3 axis visually

I don't see what you trying to argue about

All 3D computer graphics are fake shit on a 2D scream I don't understand how anything can be actually three dimensional in tiis fucking box it's a fucking COMPUTER SHUT THE FUCK UP
I HATE 3D GAMING
IT RUINED EVERYTHING
AND IT HURTS THINE EYES
MINE EYES

Sierra "3D" adventure game

>>6817209
Arbitrary. You just picked some element that bugs you and decided it ruined the 3d.

>>6817525
no third dimension anywhere in either gameplay or visuals
weak bait

>>6817515
>I'm not. I never claimed Doom is 3D. I'm asking how you award Build an extra .5 dimensions when it's the same as Doom but with mild perspective stretching and a jump button.

Because you can go and shoot in 3 different directions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6JcZv3wPuU

Asked and answered, wow.

>>6817559
3 different orthogonal planes* you know what I mean.

>>6817559
It's the exact same with Doom. Doomguy can shoot up and down with vertical aim correction. Duke can shoot up and down with aim correction. It's why the D-pad is still pheasable to control duke without a mouse.

The only difference... the ONLY difference... is that Duke SEEMS to be looking up and down because the walls are stretching to simulate his perspective change. It's not anything but the very trickery you attributed to Doom's non-existent vertical look.

Alright man I give up, have a nice life.

>>6817540
>not 3D
wrong

>>6817587
Kind of a bitter way to end a discussion, but alright man. I'm glad you see it my way.

>>6817601
>I'm glad you see it my way.
This guy...

>>6817605
If you have an argument left, I'd love to hear it.

Saying Doom is real 3D is like saying trannies are real women

>>6817623
Doom is 3D
Trannies are trannies
have a nice day

>>6817623
You aren't on /v/. Please stop obsessing about trannies.

>>6817623
>women are women regardless of their body parts
Yes my dude

>>6817623
>bringing trannies in a technical videogame discussion
shows how much of a gay faggot you are

>refresh page
>4 replies in a row all replying to my shitpost
Damn... so this is the power of the rule changes....

>>6817649
>act like a faggot
>get called a faggot
Damn...

>>6816886
just stop it

>>6817209
doom's gameplay mechanics would be different if it was purely 2d with no 3d computation

>>6817623
There should be a rule similar to "americans will always bring up black dicks" but for /v/ and trannies

>>6816886
To make a long story short, Doom fakes 3D by having sprites that rotate and morph relative the camera. It only has height, visually, because there's a vertical offset coded into the game. Quake is actual 3D, with polygons, and a vertical axis rather than just a visual-only offsetn.

>>6817694
>doom's gameplay mechanics would be different if it was purely 2d with no 3d computation
It would be Wolfenstein.

>>6817697
You're not really above him for citing yet another /v/ meme.

>>6816978
I think they actually used some cheap trick to simulate floors, but it's the same as Doom's engine ultimately. There was even a joke that build engine was "held together with duct tape" because you could barely do shit with it and had to use tons of work arounds.

Or at least that's what I hear.

>>6817872
I know but it would be better to take their retarded memes and use it against them. Then again, that's literally what happened with soijak, it was a shit meme and now you can use against literally anyone and end a discussion

>>6816951
What about the 3DS?

3D = polygons

explain how is daggerfall 3d while doom isn't

>>6816978
there's just invisible teleports to make you believe there are rooms on top of rooms with the exception of those flat bridges

>>6818569
Because nobody made a game theory on youtube about it for kiddies to parrot.

>>6817868
yes, and that is quite different from doom

>>6817880
Build engine was made by a 19 years old

>>6818606
>>6817346

>>6816886
Someone told me Crash Bandicoot isn’t a 3D game because the levels are on a track and you can’t move the camera

>>6817846
>It only has height visually, because there's a vertical offset coded into the game.

It considers height in collision detection
And the vertical offset is in the map data (there are two vertical offsets per sector, not just one), not "coded into the game"

>>6816886
If you can't understand the difference between Quake and a game where you can't fucking look up or down, I don't know what to tell you, kid.

>>6817180
If the game is 3D then why do objects in the scenery have only one sprite that faces you regardless of direction?

>>6817595
How did a nigger become Robin Hood and then get stuck on a rock in the sea looking at a poster from Spencer's flying through the sky?

>>6823631
that's the plot of king's quest 1, obviously

>>6816886
Raycasting not projection

>>6823651
raycasting is still 3D

>>6823624
stupidest argument yet
Because devs were too lazy to make extra sprites
nothing stops you from making them, and all it takes to putt it into the game is name sprite the same except numbers 1-8 instead of 0 for angles.
somebody even made rotation sprites for ammo back in the day, but nobody uses them as they were ugly

>>6823665
No it's not lmao. Try coding both and tell me how similar they are. Doom is literally just resized strips of wall based on distance to the player. That's nothing like projection at all. You might be thinking of raytracing which is different.

>>6816886
You've posted this exact same thread how many times?

>>6823678
It's fucking pathetic that people like you would come here and act like some authority, overturning decades of conventions and terminology, all because you decided you fancy it another way. The fact that all your enemies and almost everything you see are sprites puts it firmly in the 2D or 2.5D category. If you don't like that suck a dick. Just stop misinforming others.

You need x,y,z axis to be 3d
Doom has all 3
Doom is 3d

>>6817075
>at least a poor choice of terminologies
That's all it is. People who say it's true 3D aren't being entirely honest about its limitations. If you can't move one floor over another in 3D space then it is limited in it's 3rd dimension. But it is taking z height into consideration. It's 3D but not fully featured.
2.5D isn't a good descriptor either though because it DOES have all 3 dimensions represented mathematically.

I would just call it limited 3d or something. But 2.5D is a bit jokey-er and was accepted for a long time before that YouTube whoever went on a rant and called it 2D like a moron and now every pedant on the internet has to push up their acktually glasses and be a never-ending cunt about it.

>>6817180
>daily true 3d thread
>someone still angrily replies to it
4chinks userbase sucks

>>6824404
Whether Doom, or Wolfenstein, or 3-Demon, the whole selling point was that it was VISUALLY in 3D. They knew the limitations back then and were fine with the term 3D to describe the games. Now that game engines have more ability and range of movement, it's today's players that want to retroactively claim that the old 3D games weren't real 3D. In 20 years, some new game in the future with more lifelike features will cause young players to claim that the games being made today weren't real 3D because they lack the new feature of the future. It might even be possible that people start to get snooty about ray tracing in that way.