/vr/ - Retro Games

>>6743378
Bulk slash, burning rangers and pds are probably the most impressive. They’re all great games but graphically at the lower end of the PS1

>>6743378
Most early PS1 games like Tomb Raider and Resident Evil were also on Saturn and just as good. So there's that.

>>6743378
What's unimpressive about bulk slash?

>>6743397
Because it looks a step above SNES Mode 7 and less like true 3D rendered graphics. Doesn't help the main character is a sprite. The level of pixelation and wobbly polygons is also always present, which is why I liken the most impressive Saturn 3D to the average PSX. It at least had perspective correction unlike PSX, but Wave Race 64 came out a year earlier and looked a generation newer.

Sonic R looks pretty good

>muh graphics
At least bulk slash ran consistently at a stable frame rate rather than trying to impress with flashy effects that would look dated 2 years later anyway.

>>6743384
>They’re all great games
Wrong. They're all mediocre.
>>6743397
It's shit.
>>6743587
Too bad it's not a good game.

>>6743512
>Because it looks a step above SNES Mode 7 and less like true 3D rendered graphics
Are we talking about just the floors here? Even those are several orders of magnitude more elaborate than anything mode7 does.

>>6743512
Welcome to the first 3D gen, while N64 has generally better polygons, it has worse textures and performance

>>6743597
>Too bad it's not a good game
Is this bait?

>>6743671
Not him but Bulk Slash is overrated as hell like every other Saturn "hidden gem". You can beat it in an hour first try without dying a single time.

>>6743597
Are you trolling, bulk slash is the worst of the 3 and its still goor. Burning rangers is pretty damn cool and pds is one of the best rpgs ever made

>>6743694
Yeah its a really neat short game, fun to just pop in on an afternoon after work. Probably one of my favorite games to wind down to.

>>6743579
For a Saturn game

>>6743786
It's shit you absolute retard.

>>6743694
Oh I remember you, you didn't even get an ending when you beat it. It's weird that butthurt can compel people to beat games so poorly. Bulk Slash is better than everything on the N64 still.

>>6743882
>Bulk Slash is better than everything on the N64 still.
The anon you're replying to is a faggot, but you're also a faggot for uncalled for console warring.

>>6743890
Don't be stupid anon.

>>6743882
>you didn't even get an ending when you beat it.
Yes I did. Let me guess, you didn't though? What'd you play it on easy?

>>6743668
>worse textures
Than Saturn? No way dude. It's so pixelated idk what I'm looking at.
>performance
Ehhh no, they're the same at worst.
>>6743651
In terms of colors sure, but in terms of tech it doesn't look impressive for the time.

>>6743651

>>6743694 Nice Mode 7.

>>6743882
>Bulk Slash is better than everything on the N64 still.
The Saturn impoorter delusion is in full force.

>>6743694

>>6743939
To be fair the game does have 3D structures, check out the drawdistance on em though.

>>6743967
name one (1) problem with this

Is Saturn emulation good yet? I feel bad not getting to experience the games for it other than the port of Nights.

>>6744072
the Mednafen core on retroarch/bizhawk is fucking fantastic
Kronos is allegedly good too but I haven't tried it

>>6744082
I'll look into it. Wish I could afford the console and games but it's too out of hand now.

>>6743668
N64 has the best everything
Check out Goldeneye and Mario 64

>>6743694
>>6743967
This looks so fucking cool i love this
I wish id bought saturn shit before it got expensive

>>6744106
There aren't enough games like it out there, give it a try however you can. It's short too but different endings for every girl.

>>6744057
it looks like fucking ass, the thousands of multicolored pixels abstracts even more than the 64's vaseline blur, like I'm looking into a childs bin of lego bricks.

how do I get the other waifus in bulk slash

>>6744057
looks pretty nice, actually
sharp, and easy to read graphics, good and consistent frame rate, looks like it controls well
nothing to complain about, really

>>6744620
I cringe every time a nincel expresses his braindead opinion.

>>6744625
You literally just find them in the levels. The first one is easy to find, but the others are found the same way. There's one in each level. If you finish the game with one, you "unlock" them and you can pick them from the menu.

>>6745050
>mentions 64's "blur"
It's not a nintendo fan, it's a playstation fan.

>>6745104
Oh no he acknowledged N64 looking like a smudgy pile of vomit, must be a playstation fan to accept reality for what it is

This looks better than the average PS1 game.

>>6745112
Seething snoynigger

>>6745115
we both know who is the seething party here nincel

>>6745112
Sony fans are the quintessential console war shitposters, so it isn't really a surprise. They hate the fact other 5th gen systems like N64 and Saturn have people who like them.

>>6745117
You can’t prove anything I’m just an innocent poster that you’ve decided is a nincel. I’m not the one you were talking to earlier.

>>6745124
Penchant for liking visualized cancer is the only proof I need
>>6745121
Saturn is an excellent console, don't mingle it with an atrocity for challenged children

>>6745127
When did I ever say that? I just called you a snoynigger.

>>6745127
>Saturn is an excellent console, don't mingle it with an atrocity for challenged children
Based, fuck the play station

>>6743694
Holy shit that game looks awesome! Thanks anon, I'm definitely getting Bulk Slash now.

>>6745114
how

>>6743378
You are either delusional or blind

>>6745297
t. delusional AND blind

>>6743512
Clearly delusional.

>>6745298
post example of a good looking 5th gen 3d game

>>6745297
enjoy your sub mode 7 3D rendering, shouldve just stuck to 2D shit.

>>6745303

>>6745306
>>6745307
>emulated screenshots

>>6745309
Post something better from the Shiturn then.

>>6744057
Nothing really - it's some nice 4th gen action gaming.

Of course the only 3d structures in it are the buildings and there all the exact same one polygon structure with an atrocious draw distance. It's like a sped-up SNES or even Sega's 32x might pull something similar off. It's hardly full 3d.

obvious bait, you retards

>>6745298
>>6745306
clearly delusional

PS: it's not mode 7

>>6745315
That's not possible, sorry.

>>6745368
No, just a step removed from it. hardly 3D even.

>>6745373
Dude, the 32x ran Virtua Racing better than the Saturn. Pathetic.

>>6743378
tomb raider on saturn looks better than on ps1. Nights into dreams looks better than anything on ps1. In that generation nothing in 3d looked impressive in the sense you are expecting.
You are so inept that you didn't post an impressive 3d psx game, with the impressive 3d graphics a psx (hot) has.
The only thing that was impressive during the psx and saturn era was the prerendered or drawn animations in the intros or cutscenes. I feel like you don't understand the first 3d console generation at all.

>>6745394
>psx (not) has.

>>6745374
Again, that's not possible, sorry.

>>6745373
>>6745378
damn... that's just... sad!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLU9JJY9SJY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQPIqRNQu1E

>>6745374
It's sad that you don't understand anything about hardware or game making at all but instead spout such nonsense. Go with god anon. I will pray for your immortal soul.

Panzā doragūn tsuvuai

Although what is and isn't "actually impressive 3D" is of course entirely subjective.

>>6745459
The way saturn handles 3d I don't like to call it 3d. The hardware was designed to scale, rotate abd distort sprites and thats basically how it achieves its 3d. I find this more impressive looking at what it achieved.

>>6745464
>The way saturn handles 3d I don't like to call it 3d
Because you're a complete ignoramus. 3D is "true 3D" if the game engine has a z-axis. There is no other requirement, no specific technique or method of polygon generation necessary. You sound like a zoomer in Comp Sci who just redefines things he doesn't understand arbitrarily.

>>6745464
>moving goalposts

Every game is 2D after being projected onto a monitor

>>6745474
I consider it praise of the Saturn to say it does all this with 2D techniques

>>6745518
How is the ability to freely manipulate quad vertices in any axis a "2D technique"? The Saturn was undeniably designed for 3D.

>>6745530
scaling, rotation and distortion

>>6745531
Techniques that since their inception have been used for 3D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-SrMyjljSM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89wnSkENud0

>>6745535
Yeah and I think it's pretty cool it achieves 3D with 2D games

>>6745536
I don't understand, what is 2D to you about the Saturn? How are sprites used as primitives and freely manipulable in 3D 2D?

>>6745539
For all intents and purpose the saturn handles quads exactly how it would handle sprites, it's a very different way of achieving 3D.

>>6745548
>it's a very different way of achieving 3D.
Not really, only difference is quad primitive instead of triangle and no UV mapping. I think you vastly overestimate how different Saturn is to "conventional" 3D.

>>6745556
I'm actually giving it the credence it deserves over conventional 3D

>>6745558
Quad rendering with no UV mapping was conventional in 1993 when Saturn released.

>>6745539
Both the Saturn's distorted sprites and the PS1's textured triangles only operate in "2D", but anything you can use to represent a 3rd axis makes it 3D.
The reason Saturn's quad's get criticised harder for being "2D" is because pretty much EVERYTHING that you need for 3D is handled weird on Saturn. I mean everything. Every time you try to do something fundamental to polygon rendering you'll butt up against a limitation that makes no sense for a polygon rasteriser but makes more sense for a sprite engine.
That's what makes the Saturn "2D", not because you can't manhandle it into doing 3D, but because it requires manhandling. Meanwhile the PS1 is the other way around, it requires a bit of finessing to render 2D graphics without errors because it was optimised for 3D first.

>>6745569
The PS1 doesn't require any extra work for 2D, devs at the time even praised it saying it was the easiest 2D system they ever worked on. It has a specific mode to render 2D elements as 3D flat billboards with no perspective issues, it's a very modern way of doing things. It's definitely different - at the time Saturn was more traditional with dedicated layers and acceleration for each part from sprites to backgrounds, but the PS1 solved the same problem with a slightly different way that was just as easy and more flexible.

>>6745539
>>6745556

Imagine playing this dumb and having a bunch of buzzwords around for what is clearly 2.5D if that, where you have a little rotation, scaling and distortion. You're a wanker mate who has no idea what you're talking about.

>>6745539
>>6745556

Imagine playing this dumb and throwing a bunch of buzzwords around for what is clearly 2.5D if that, where you have a little rotation, scaling and distortion. You're a wanker mate who has no idea what you're talking about.

>>6745574
Sorry, I don't mean to imply the PS1 was "bad" for 2D, I mean that in the hypothetical situation where you had to bitbang the GS registers to draw 2D "sprites" you'd have a few teething troubles to work around.
In reality you wouldn't do that, you'd be using the provided libs that have all that shit worked out already and yes, that is FAR FAR easier than working with a traditional sprites and tiles setup.

>>6745576
>2.5D
What is 2.5D about an engine with all three axes you colossal fucking retard.

>>6743378
It's a good game and all but damn, bitch shut up when I get hit already.

>>6745598
Stop getting hit bitch

>>6745592
He's just a lonely autist trying to fill his day. Maybe eventually a kindly therapist will teach him how to have civil conversations, but for now this is what we have to put up with.

>>6743378
Burning rangers is one of the few Saturn games that attempts a contemporary rendering engine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYs2O29l0Uk
At the time, your 3D game was expected to have full texture mapping, Gouraud lighting and transparency; but while the Saturn can do all of those things, they each have unfortunate caveats. Very few games put in the effort to work around those limitations, instead tending to just use flat lighting, or mesh transparencies everywhere amongst other things.
Sonic R is also quite impressive and the guy behind most of the tricks explains how it works on the youtubes (though sometimes I think his memory might be slightly off as sometimes it sounds like he's skipping steps in the explanation).

>>6745620
How do you define "contemporary rendering engine"

>>6743378
You are big dum dum

>>6745592
I never said the saturn could not force 3d but as with 4th gen consoles it's software-based and almost always you can see it's clearly being held up by duct tape.

Sure some Saturn games like Tomb Raider, Quake and Sega Rally are 3d, however like when genesis etc. try to do these things you can really see how limited they are in doing it, there is no proper hardware for it. Even Quake - a game with notorious portability - the entire thing had to be rewritten with amazing creativity to try to force a decent frankenstein version of it.

>>6745707
Tomb Raider had better draw distance and water effects on Saturn than on PS1 though.

Saturn only got good with the 4MB RAM cart, everything is trash. Saturn 3D is so ugly.

>>6743512
The saturn does not have perspective correction (outside of vdp2, if that's what you meant)

>>6745720
It's not really fair to compare saturn to PS1, PS1 3D is the best of the generation. Saturn can do very novel effects that make some of its own games very visually striking.

>>6745720
That Saturn screenshot looks artificially dark. Other than the dithered thrust they don't look that different otherwise.

>>6745731
>PS1 3D is the best of the generation.
Oh please, N64 has by far better 3D by any standards.

>>6745720
Shhhht, adults are talking here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90ibFVjhkFk

>>6745731
>PS1 3D is the best of the generation

There are so many issues with ps1's 3D its not even funny.
First of all, it doesn't have any 3D hardware. It has a 2d triangle rasterizer and texture mapper. I guess the geometry co processor helps with 3d math, but any cpu can do that.

For a 2d texture mapper, it's fine I suppose. But the rasterizer is petty poor. My rasterizer than runs on a 7MHz 68k does a better job. Where's the subpixel accuracy and fill convention? Surely Ken Kutaragi could have read about that when he was doing research.

Saturn is just as bad (worse in some ways) but since a lot of low poly 3d has square walls, quads work a bit better, as a wall split into two triangles with affine texture mapping makes an obvious diagonal seam, and the lack of subpixel correction makes the two wall halves wobble independently. The saturn was harder to program though and generally couldn't keep up geometry wise. It also had its own insane quirks, used forward texture mapping causing overdraw, which consequently broke transparency, etc.

The n64 had actual 3d hardware, it's too bad they fucked up the texture caching.

PS1 was just the only sane and easy to program console that gen, which is why it succeeded.

>>6745753
It's all carefully considered, anon. Yes, they could've used better and more powerful off-the-shelf components for the PS1, but they didn't. They had a target budget for the system and it all worked out in their favor. It's a stroke of genius when you think about it. It's bare bones and all done with then readily available components. It's very easy to get at least some acceptable 3D out of the system.

And most off all: the system was cheap...so damn cheap...and they still got filthy rich from selling it.

>>6745753
Its funny you say that about the triangles vs quads because despite the obvious seams the Saturn's 3D looked noticeably janky in comparison. I actually like Saturn's 3D, it has character, but it looks weird compared to PS1 and N64.

People tend to forget that most Saturn development was halted by the end of 97... up to that point, most games between PSX and Saturn were comparable

>>6745737
Yeah it gets all the important things right in a 3D game, massive fog walls that limit your view distance to 15 feet, indiscernible models that blend in with the muddy textures, and most important for gaming, a blazing fast framerate of 20 on a good day.

N64 was a paper tiger, PS1 was performant. Come back when you have more than 10 games that run at 60fps.

>>6745778
PEE-ASS-WON HABE MUCH BETTERER 3D

YADDAYADDAYADDA BLAH BLAH BLAH *sonydronie noises*

>>6745797
That's an excellent model so I don't know what you're trying to say.

>>6745801
That everything on PS1 looked like shit from the get go, at least for me as PC owner.

>>6745778
I agree, was just making a note that in some cases, janky quads can be a little better than janky triangles.

>>6745769
Subpixel accuracy can be done with a single addition and subtraction per scanline. Maybe an extra bit or two of precision sent to the gpu. Would have easily been worth it. I wouldn't expect perspective correction on something as early as the ps1, but I bet if someone had come up with the quake trick (correct every 16 pixels, interpolate between) it could have been doable for cheap.

>>6745832
Don't try to bullshit here unless you designed and built your own hardware, nerd.

>>6745306
It does look like shit.

>>6743694
>>6743882
There are 7 girls to find in the game and you have to finish with all to make them available early for a next play, they also improve skills. Did you find them all?

>>6745791
Compare RE2 on PS1 and N64 and come back to say if the character models are worse.

>>6745847
I don't know that much about hardware design, and never claimed to, but I know the feature I'm talking about only requires two arithmetic ops per scanline and 1 extra bit of precision (more would be better though). Doesn't seem too expensive.

>>6745874
They could've incorporated the R3010 FPU into the design to give it more grunt, but that component alone is as expensive as the CPU.

shoulda coulda woulda

>>6745894
Except that's not in any way comparable to two one cycle ops per scanline plus an extra bit or two per coordinate. Those bits are thrown away after the subpixel correction step and the remainder of the graphics chip doesn't need to handle them.

You don't need a fpu for good rasterization or texture quality anyway.

>>6745873
Resident Evil 2 N64 not only took TWO (2) extra years to come out compared to the original, it looks worse, has inconsistent background sizes with an obscene amount of compression, ultra blurry FMV thanks to interpolation and is ultimately an inferior way to play. Textures are fucked, sounds are fucked, backgrounds are fucked, and models are of course: fucked.

RE2 N64 is a novelty, but an inferior version from start to finish.

>>6745874
Yeah but they didn't. End of story.

>>6745961
yeah but whatever quality ps1 assets has, the gpu completely bastardizes them lol

>>6745746
Nooooo N64 is supposed to be shitty

>>6745791
>exaggerating so greatly some issue that plagued some bad games
>denying and even making excuses for issues that plagued even the PS1s best games
Sorry but the N64 was a more capable machine that at it's peak made games the PS1 could never dream of running like Conker or Perfect Dark. The FPS was often sub 30 because of how much the developers pushed the hardware.
>muh texture cache
literal mouthbreather, N64 had double the texture cache of the PS1.

>>6745801
it jiggles like jello

>>6745961
you realize all of your complaints come from not playing on a CRT? PS1 games look like ass on new monitors, there's so many jaggies and pixels that the mess of mosaics obscures so much. I have no idea what I'm supposed to be looking at. Levying this criticism at the 64 while ignoring it when its just as present, if not more so on the PS1 is just fanboyism.

>>6746581
I have an extremely high end CRT and use component video on a PS1 with HDRV cables, trust me I know how much better PS1 looks compared to its competition. Porting over shitty N64 assets and replacing the much higher resolution and fitting Spyro assets does not make the PS1 original look bad, it just goes to show how inadequate the N64 assets are in comparison.

>>6746590
You sound autistic.

>>6746596
You sound like a bitch

>>6746590
>this level of sonygger cope
admit you are still jealous of other kids at your school who had one over 20 years later, consolewarring faggot.

>>6746590
>muh set up autism
They literally look no different on a CRT, you're a hairsplitting sony shill

>>6745797
S O U L

Same game. Looks like shit on N64. Looks SOULFUL on the PSX.
I say this as someone who likes N64 games.

>>6746560
>literal mouthbreather, N64 had double the texture cache of the PS1.

yeah but the ps1 could use textures of any size, and the cache would load it in dynamically.

n64 is more like texture scratchpad, it's managed manually, and you can only reference up to 4k of texture per polygon or something (there might be a way to switch things out while it's drawing, but if there is it's probably extremely tricky)

>>6746605
>jealous of console owners
I had capable gaming PCs throughout the 90s, why would I be jealous of console pleb budget gaming?

What about that Shenmue techdemo? It looks better than any PS game.

>>6746621
i wish there was an option to disable bilinear filtering in more n64 games. would give it more of a old school look

>>6746621
>cherrypicking

>>6746639
lol

>>6746621
They both are obviously dated. Does this prevent anyone from playing and enjoying them? No. Why this nonsensical drama? Are you people still playing games or are you just complaining all day?

>>6746624
>PS1 could use textures of any size
No, it could use only up to 2kb, but had superior memory due to CDs

>>6746626
you defend sony to the death says otherwise. actual pc owners don't waste their time going to such lengths arguing about shitty outdated tech on a Mongolian basket weaving board

>>6746642
>cherrypicking + emulation

>>6746596
>>6746605
>>6746613
nincel COPE

>>6746717
your brain on jaggies

>>6746676
I did no such thing. This is my first post in this shitshow of a thread.

is it me or nintendo apologists come off as a bit mentally ill or something, eh?

>>6746728
Yeah, it's the hyper-aggression.

>>6746728
Sony shills come of as several times more mentally ill since they feel the need to cope over their competition having fans over 20 years later. I thought you guys won, why so insecure?

>>6746728
Take your meds schizo

>>6746778
>>6746761
Yes, this kind of attitude is exactly what I'm talking about.

>>6746663
you're right, i got incorrect information from somewhere

I wish there was a way to apply the N64 filters to PSX games.

>>6748030
I don't, pixel art looks best when it's clean and discernible.

>>6748323
t. millenial who thinks pixels were clear back then

>>6748334
sorry faggot we don't live back then any more

>>6748402
>>>/v/

>>6743378
Toshinden URA

>>6744072
It's been good since about 2005 dude. However there is still massive input lag in both the major emulators.
SSF is the way to go. Fastest, most compatible, most accurate, least amount of input lag and has features the others don't have like actual 3d trasnparencies and proper de-interlacing.

>>6743694
Is this a finished game? Where are all the art assets?

>>6749331
man there are a lot of shitposters on /vr/ recently

>>6745114
Agreed

>>6749317
the mednafen core for saturn is pretty great anon, it's not worth using the stand alone emulators for saturn

>>6745735
nah, playstation and saturn handle lighting differently. early playstation models had only 32 light levels as a result of that, until sony fixed it by upgrading the RAM: https://segaretro.org/Sega_Saturn/Hardware_comparison#Revised_PlayStation

>>6743694
I think i once payed like 39$ for a 40 minute ova

in other words fuck you what i do with my time is my business

Oh hi guys, you havin' a stupid thread again? Nice.

I always want to say that saturn had the most soul but the psx library is just unbelievable

N64 is for children, Playstation was for artists (also autists like me)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JV8dObW05A

>>6750571
Another insanely overrated Saturn game.

>>6750601
Yeah, unbelievable on how much trash it had.
Also N64 is more for jocks, what with all the FPSs and sports games.
Saturn was the true ludo system of 5th gen.

>>6750603
Suck the shit out of my asshole

>>6743512
yup

the project z-treme homebrew for saturn is really impressive, it even has true transparencies https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPYEiDwZbRc

>>6743512
You talk like a fag.

>>6743512
I count that as a plus. Aesthetically it's all very consistent and pleasing.

>>6743597
Thank you for your valuable contribution. You're clearly passionate about games.

>>6745707
Quake wasn’t known for “portability” at the time just because it is now. The port while not perfect is quite impressive. And software rendering? I don’t think you have any idea what you’re even talking about.

>>6745874
Yeah you have no idea the hardware available at the time do you? Or what functions were even common? What quake did was not a cheap “trick” and was a ridiculously impressive game at the time. So hush you child

Slave Drive engine games like Powerslave and Duke Nukem 3D.