/vr/ - Retro Games

>>6603261
That's an example of a bad player. Why would you race ahead your first time playing a level like that? First playthroughs of Sonic games are cautious affairs. What you posted is the equivalent to sticking to the top of the screen in a shmup. First playthrough: learning the level layout. Subsequent playthroughs: figuring out the most efficient routes to reach new time and score totals.

>>6603269
I played sonic 1,2,3,&knuckles, mania before and none of the levels had such adversities at the very start.

>>6603261
Faggot

>>6603261

>>6603261

>>6603284
This is quite possibly the worst designed boss in such a beloved game.

>>6603261

>>6603261
He had time to react.

>>6603284
Agreed. After you're used to it, it's not a big deal, but making a boss unkillable if you run out of ammo in a MM game is dumb.

>>6603296
This is also stupid. It should have just been a bottomless pit.

>>6603385
>He had time to react.

No, not really. Spikes were first sighted at 3.453, and anything past 3.738 is too late to jump. This is a span of 285 ms. Average reaction time to visual stimulus is about 215ms, which would mean the player had 70ms to react minus the overall input delay of the setup. Clearly that is not enough and you're being disingenuous.

>>6603261
Absolutely based Sonic CD filtering spindashfaggets

>>6603261
FUCK YOU

>>6603261
You start op

>>6603285
what the fuck were they thinking with that design, it's practically unavoidable

>>6603284
>ammo doesn't replenish when you die
>your options for grinding for ammo is in a very narrow hallway where you are almost guaranteed to take damage

Boobeam keeps Mega Man 2 from being perfect.

>>6603269
speaking of scrolling, that's an actual bad design point

You could argue all of Dragon Quest II is poorly designed and I wouldn't argue, but aside from a lack of a world map I don't find the game particularly offensive until you get to Rone, or even just the cave leading to Rone.

>>6604081
I hate Rone

>>6603261
That’s actually clever. It’s a solid misdirection.

>>6603416
I wanted to just tell you I really appreciate you actually counted the frames, are you a speedrunner or fighting game player?

>>6603284

>>6603285

>>6603261
The game basically immediately informing you that the level structure in this one is going to be different is bad design? What's next Mario 2 sucks because you should be able to eat the first mushroom? lmao

>>6603261
Sonic as whole is bad design

>>6604081

DQ II and FF II are both dog shit.

But then again we are dealing with games that fall in the first 10 JRPGS ever made.

Atleast they led us to DQIII and FFIII

>>6603269
this, OP is a fucking retard

>>6603261
>>6603272
>>6603416
>>6604313
That's not a bad game design, that's just you guys being stupid and sucking at playing Sonic CD by spin dashing without looking ahead of you.

>>6603269
Exactly!

>>6604441
WHY did they plop in all these fucking doors? There's ZERO reason for this garbage. I'm so fucking mad.

>>6603261
N-no you're just a Nintencuck!

>>6604441
Which one is this?

>>6603269
This.

>>6604939
FF II.

>>6604965
>>6604349
>>6604340
>>6604010
>>6603912
>>6603273
>>6603269

If spindashing at the start of a level in Sonic is indeed a bad idea then surely there are numerous examples outside Sonic CD which will prove it?

>>6603261
>>6604969

>waa sanic is too easy
>waa sanic is too hard

>>6603269
>>6604340

>Game all about going fast
>All its fun mechanics involve going fast
>Actively punishes player for going fast at random

No, op is right, you autists need to sort your heads out. Sonic is all about speed, what sort of joyless fucktard crawls about the levels in sonic carefully and slug like?

>>6605072
Sonic 1 doesn't even have spin dash you imbecile.

>>6605121
Some later versions of it do, like Sonic Jam
and anyway the point is you die from going too fast, whether it is by running, spin dashing or using the super peel out in CD

>>6605127
No, the argument was that spin dashing at the start of a level is bad judgement so I wanted to see examples of that. Of course you'll die in plenty of levels if you just hold right without doing anything, but that is nothing more than a strawman.

>>6605129
>spin dashing at the start of a level is bad judgement
Because you go too fast and you're unable to see incoming objects. Why are you arbitrarily picking spin-dash only?

>>6605136
Because >>6603269 argues that spin dashing would be something a bad player would do, but in reality that is the only level in all 5 classic Sonic games in which this is actually true. In other words, he's trying to present an exception as a general rule.

>>6605098
i think its proposital troll, "lmao go fast" and by the second world you are playing wait simulator with the lava and those insta kill presses.

>>6603285
There's actually a bit of genius in this. That goomba teaches "mushrooms are bad" but the first mushroom you trigger right after it, which is deliberately hard to avoid, teaches "but some are good". This design appears throughout the Mario games.

>>6604490
It's a Wizardry thing, there were many rooms in the Wizardry games that would force an encounter and have nothing of value in them. The encounter rate in those games is actually very low, IF you know what rooms to avoid.

>>6605150
>"lmao go fast"
This was not a thing prior to the Dreamcast games and was reinforced to an absurd extent by the GBA games onwards.

>>6603261
Nice shader, what is it?

>>6605220
Sonic Advance 2.
Original Sonic Advance has the same speed as 16-bit trilogy

>buy
>heal (60)
>yes
>buy
>heal (60)
>yes
>buy
>heal (60)
>yes
>buy
>heal (60)
>yes
>buy
>heal (60)
>yes
>buy
>heal (60)
>yes
>buy
>heal (60)
>yes
>buy
>heal (60)
>yes
>buy
>heal (60)
>yes
>buy
>heal (60)
>yes
>buy
>heal (60)
>yes
>buy
>heal (60)
>yes
>buy
>heal (60)
>yes
>buy
>heal (60)
>yes
>buy
>heal (60)
>yes
>buy
>heal (60)
>yes
>buy
>heal (60)
>yes
>buy
>heal (60)
>yes
>buy
>heal (60)
>yes
>buy
>heal (60)
>yes

>collision chaos
>he collided
>it was chaotic

seems like good design

>>6605140
I didn't write "spindash" once. I wrote
> That's an example of a bad player. Why would you race ahead your first time playing a level like that?
Racing ahead on your first playthrough is bad. Doesn't matter if you're in a ball.

>>6605457
>buy heal
Good taste fellow footfag.

>>6605225
xm29 plus royale

>>6603261
lmao
never got killed by this thing once
you have to be extremely high iq to understand sonic cd though, so i won't call you a retard even though you are

It's funny imagining all the big brained people in this thread pretending to slowly and meticulously make their way through a Sonic game like it's fucking Dark Souls or something.

>>6603261
I have never in my life started a new Sonic level by spindashing ahead. That player collided with the spikes and died, yes, but what if there were platforms or alternate routes or a pit? I wouldn't want to miss those things by going really fast at the start of a level. This isn't the way to play Sonic, I'm glad they were punished for that.

You're supposed to notice Amy and not speed ahead. You're also not supposed to spindash ahead into the unknown, there are always hazards in Sonic games like lava, pits, spikes, badniks with hazards to the front or back of them, and so on. Spindash is for clearing hills you've gotten stuck in, breaking through walls, or speeding through a level you've already memorized. I'm not saying you have to go slow through Sonic, but the appropriate way to play a level for the first time is always to start off by walking and then build up speed as you run, spindash is always too fast for a first attempt at a level.

>>6605568
Huh?

Rev limiters in Gran Turismo. This really fucked me in a-spec.

>>6605670
Now you understand how Sonic's fanbase is the most autistic of them all, maybe even surpassing MLP.

>>6605625
>xm29 plus royale
Gracias.

>>6603261
I've honestly done this a couple times. Collision Chaos and Wacky Workbench have terrible level design. Stardust Speedway and Metallic Madness make up for it though.

>>6603261
Still waiting

>>6604969
You obviously don't have much experience in playing Sonic The Hedgehog, do you? There are plenty of traps and dangerous objects to look out for. Which is why we have to play through the entire level first before we even think of using spin dashing in an area. Because there are plenty of spots where you can fall, land on spikes, fall into lava or get crushed.

>>6605889
>Everyone I hate is autistic
>Gets triggered by the Sonic fanbase
t. Triggered Nintendrone

>>6605931
shut up chrischan

>>6605919
No, I am exactly the opposite. If you have any examples of levels in which spin dashing at the start will kill you, feel free to share.

>>6605931
>9gag

They re-used this boss way too much, and he was never challenging, despite the different environments they put him in.

>>6603416
>ur being disingenuous

Homosexual

>>6605947
>>6604969

>>6606014
the memories come flooding back, I died there too

>>6605947
>>6604969

>>6605934
>anyone who defends Sonic is an Asian dude named Chris Chan
What a weak insult. LOL

>>6605951
What's 9gag?

>>6605947
Someone already posted it before I could...

>>6606014
>>6606029

Definitely prime examples of not to spindash at the start.

>>6603285
Literally no way to know to avoid this because there was no button prompt.

>>6606029
How do pretentious fags say these days; My expectations were subverted?!

I unironically love Metropolis Zone.

The ultimate in bad design: LJN's X-Men. You all know the horrible details of actually playing it-- ugly graphics, bosses and characters that all play and look identical, bizarre enemies, retarded AI, forced to select two characters even in a one player game. But the honest worst part of it is the last level. Not for difficulty, but because to get there you have to beat all the other stages... and then put in a cheat code.

To learn the code, you have to beat 30 "special" enemies in a stage. Sometimes they're a different color, but not always. After you do, part of the post stage text is highlighted. Copy down the highlighted words and you get a message:
>THE LAST MISSION. CAN BE REACHED FROM THE MISSION. SCREEN BY PUSHING SELECT AND SEEK THE ADVICE OF THE LABEL TO MAKE IT TO THE FINAL MISSION.

"The label" in this case means the actual label on the NES catridge itself. Printed there in microscopic text is the rest of the button code. Words you wouldn't be able to even read while your game is inside your NES. So you'd have to turn the game off and take it out of the console, notice the tiny letters, and then replay the whole game all over again to have a chance to enter in that button code.

>>6606189
>I unironically love Metropolis Zone.
I love it as well. It is my favorite zone in sonic 2 because getting good (aka going fast most of the time) requires skill, and you're actually being challenged in them.
Maybe that's why I prefer Sonic 1 over 2.

>>6605956
This
As shitty and uninspired as the NSMB series is, at least they sort of made boss arenas match the theme of the world you’re in

>hold right blindly
>"bad design"
Play modern games, you dumb children. Talk about ACTUAL bad design...

Retro games didn't hold your hand, they made you learn about new obstacles that were going to be introduced into the upcoming levels. That's why the spike trap is at the start of the level. You'll fall for it, but you'll only go back a tiny bit. You didn't lose progress, but now you know this could happen again, so the next time you fuck up, it's on you.

>>6605956
Good example. Bad design isn't just constrained to difficulty spikes or seemingly unfair challenges, it's also really boring repetitive stuff too. Really strange how even as the game got harder and harder this same boss would show up.

>>6605457
>Nintendo Power's strategy guide issue recommends a turbo controller for buying Potions en masse.
LOL

>>6606194
Sounds like a case of programming so bad that they had to try and cover it up by calling it a "feature".

>>6605956
That boss did actually have slightly harder variants. You probably killed them too fast to notice, they all go down as easily.

I have no screenshots or videos but
>Sonic 1
>Marble Zone act 2
>That part where the lava starts coming after you

All of this is fine right up until

>Let's put this spike trap here that actually punishes the player if he performs perfectly and doesn't hit anything. If you do this part without running into the blocks and losing speed, you literally can't see it until it's too late and the spikes pop up crushing you instantly.

Also, Labyrinth Zone in general is pretty poor game design, you've got this character all about speed, you stick him in water so that he literally cannot go fast? They do this again in the Master System version, and it's even worse there since it causes the game itself to slow down if even one object besides Sonic appears on the screen,

>>6607628
They originally wanted Labyrinth Zone to come after Green Hill Zone.

>>6605072
>>6605121
also i'm pretty sure if you were going spindash speed sonic would've avoided the trap lol

>>6603261
speaking from my first time, i was too intrigued with this weird new pink hedgehog character to just autisticly blast past her

even if so, you died literally right at the start of the zone. even if you got a game over you could still just continue from exactly right there. what's the problem exactly? sonic cd has much more prominent level design problems than this

>>6605220
the speed was like the only thing sega advertised in genesis commercials. it was its supposed advantage over the nes and then the snes

doesn't help that cd has an extra GO FAST move on top of the one sonic 2 gave you

>>6606014
this one has a ramp to naturally slow you down. you absolutely have enough time to react to it

>>6606029
imagine getting to metropolis zone act 3 and thinking that blindly spindashing is a good idea in it

also i like how you have to invoke the most notoriously bad sonic zone of all time in order to defend cd

>>6609470
How is it bad? I really liked it.

>>6609476
i don't recall hating it much either (wing fortress was much more problematic as a kid) but there's just a lot of ways to die in it and it has enemies that can kill you more efficiently than any other like the mantis

>>6609470
Metropolis Zone isn't a bad zone, Nintendrone.

>>6609497
yes it is. there are also bad mario levels

>>6603261
>plays Sonic
>complains about bad design
What were you expecting?

>>6606232
Play games by companies that know what they're doing.

>>6604020
That's the point. It's all deliberate. It forces the new player to learn the importance of jumping. Then notice the placement of the question mark block. You're going to accidentelly hit it and the mushroom will come out. Then it will richochet off the pipe and come towards you. This teaches the player, even on accident:

>The importance of jumping: it is how you navigate the level, avoid and kill enemies

>Question mark blocks can be hit by jumping from underneath to reveal their contents.

>The difference between "good" and "bad" mushrooms. Goombas are enemies that kill you on contact, power-up mushrooms make you large and have an extra hit point.

Almost like it's a deliberate and well designed game.

Caterkiller.

>>6603284
I replayed it recently and honestly don't get why 2 is the most popular of the bunch, both the stages and bosses are pretty shit compared to 1.

I got stuck on the last level of Final Fantasy Mystic Quest. There was nothing to indicate that you could climb the mast of the ship. I only remember like 2 other spots in the game where you climb a latter. It was by complete accident that I figured out you could climb it.

>>6603261

Something similar to the Immortal. 3D isometric type game?

>>6610889
I agree. However, I find this ost the best in the whole series:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFeL7kTw2CU

>>6606029
>>6606014
I like how the only 2 examples also come from the most notoriously bad classic Sonic zone.
Really tells you everything you need to know about putting a hazard that will insta-kill you if you spindash at the start of a level huh?

Out of the 80 acts in the classic Sonic games, only 3 of them do this bullshit.
>"b-b-but t-t-they're t-t-teaching y-y-you n--not to go f-f-fast unless y-y-you know t-t-the game i-i-inside out!!!"
No, they were just poorly designed levels with poorly designed starts, if every level were designed like this in classic Sonic then the games wouldn't be nearly as beloved as they still are and always have been.
I love classic Sonic, but you don't have to act like a tryhard going "hurrr durr u just got hit cuz u try too hard 2 go fast!". You can admit flaws when they're pointed out to you, you know?

>>6604349
>sucking at playing Sonic CD by spin dashing without looking ahead of you
Ah yes, I missed the button that let you pan the screen to the right.
What a retarded post. To look ahead of you would mean that you've already moved forward, meaning you literally can't spindash ever.

>>6603416
I appreciate this post.

>>6603261
ITT examples of well designed games that made a weird choice as opposed to actual shitty design.

If those spikes were solid blocks then SSZ3 race with Metal Sonic would be dumb and inconsistent: he broke wall perfectly fine in CCZ, why he can't do it later on?
It also serves as good way to show how dangerous Metal is - spikes are probably worst obstacle Sonic has to deal with, and for Metal they are nothing.

>>6603261
this is actually in the game? guess sonic cds off the list.

>>6611428
i think thats just you man.

>>6603385
Totally had time to react he just watches himself smash those spikes like durrrrr