/vr/ - Retro Games

literally who
>gaymin journo
lmao

>>6602439
Rich Leadbetter has been reviewing Sega games before you even began sucking on your mum's teets, zoomie

Holy shit, bernieposter absolutely BTFO!

>>6602357
This interview is like 10 years old. Also
>would you like to see a new sega console?
Basically says, nah not really. Fuckin kek.
It must have been hard always flying the flag for the losing side when, you know, the success of your work greatly depends how well your subject sells. I read a lot of Nintendo magazines around 5th/6th gen era and man the journo's always came off as bitter when comparing Nintendo to the competition.

I had old gaming magazines that gave a lot of attention to the saturn. Needless to say, they were crazy about arcade ports, fighting games and jrpgs, even publishing their commands and story translated before they came out in american

>>6602487
He basically just says they don't have the money to compete anymore, which is correct. You need to be a billion dollar corp to release a console now

>>6602357
Stolar did nothing wrong.
If SEGA went with Kalinske and made the SHITTURN a 3D Console it would've btfo everyone else.

>>6602439
>not reading a 15 year old article with an actual developer because you got butthurt over some shitty kotaku article
peanut brain

>>6602508
>Mick:
>Do you consider the idea of Sega making consumer hardware again, perhaps a new handheld, completely ludicrous, and *either way would you personally enjoy seeing the SEGA branding on a console again?*

>Rich:
>Yes it’s completely ludicrous. Sega simply doesn’t have the resources to get back into the hardware market, and I’m guessing that it no longer has the technical wherewithal either. *I wouldn’t be hugely excited by a new Sega console*. I think they’ve got their work cut-out sorting out the software side of the equation these days, to be honest

>>6602357
>and that section of players are going to be into it until the day they die."
Very true, it's not like they're raising families or have important positions in life.

>>6602589
Accurate, yet they are a group all their own which can be marketed to, and more importantly, I've seen from here that okatu and weebs will pay for more and buy more than the average player. They seem to inherently understand that pirating the games they like means that they won't get more of them. Perhaps it's just the benefit of being a niche market; you see the same with board games and their fandom.

You can still see this even today with the Vita general on /vg/, the system is ded/10 yet it continues to hold an audience with its strong selection of niche appeal games.

>>6602541
The Sega of America guys had no say in what hardware was Sega gonna do next, they were just marketing corpo guys.

>>6602610
And that's where Sega of Japan fucked up, not listening to superior American intellect.

Also reminder Sega was founded by a based kike who was king of Japan's game centers.

>6602541
how do we get a global ban on australian ips?

>>6602357
Can you piss off you little autist

>>6602357
>The word back from developers was damning and third party publishers were getting much better results from PlayStation hardware than they were from the Saturn. The launch pricing was a disaster.

>No, the cock-ups were too immense. It would’ve stood a fighting chance in Japan if FFVII was Saturn exclusive, but the western world wouldn’t have paid any attention whatsoever. Sega were simply ill-equipped to market titles like that.

see saturncucks, even the interview admits your system was a piece of shit that only an autistic hipster turboweeb could love.

Sonygger cope.

>>6602821
>posts the same shitty thread every single day
>calls others autistic
The plague on you and your house, Sonygger

Shitturn Fag cope thread

>>6602541
>>6602787
>>6602821
>>6602901
>Angry Samefag Who Hates The Saturn
Rent-Free

>>6602357
getting filtered: the thread

The N64 and Saturn have no games.

>>6602976
Playstation has only shovelware

>>6603006
cope

>>6603006
Yup, PSX = home of the cringy shovelware

>>6602541

>>6602541
>ZOOM

>>6602357
Hey shithead if Sega would have listened to Bernie they would still be making consoles. Pandering to some weeb nerd little faggot niche is not going to make money

By the time Stolar joined Sega, the Saturn was already a flaming trainwreck. He was right to think forward and move on to the Dreamcast. Pricing it at $199 was a bold move, but wasn't enough to save Sega from fucking themselves over again.

>>6605289
Just like Atari is still making consoles after his great work with the Jaguar, right?

>>6605289
So much this. "Saturn" and "popularity" are two words that simply do not belong together. It's like some washed up old hippy getting a small audience talking about how he used to be someone.

>>6605289
>>6605406
SEGA is still around doing pretty well for themselves. How is your old pal Bernie doing lately by the way?

>>6602439
You're the consistently worst poster on /vr/ and I can immediately identify your particular brand of retardation.

>>6605601
Rehashing Sanic and Yakuza over and over is hardly what I'd consider "doing pretty well".

>SEGA is still around
No, the real SEGA died in 2004. Now they're just a rotting corpse being raped by Sammy.

>>6605653
SEGA is still around, still making arcade games. Still making millions in profit every fiscal year. And guess what... people will still be talking about SEGA once you are long dead and forgotten. Isn't that beautiful?

>>6605753
>SEGA is still around, still making arcade games.
AM2 hasn't made an arcade game in over a decade. AM3 doesn't exist anymore. Cope.

>Still making millions in profit every fiscal year.
Like I said, from Nintendy-tier rehashing, plus publishing other company's stuff.
If you think current year SEGA is as good as Retro SEGA, you're delusional.

>And guess what... people will still be talking about SEGA
Yeah... until the heat death of the universe anyway, then I win.

>>6605874

>>6602608
>niche appeal games.
That's a creative way to call pornography.

>>6602491
Imagine actually liking things instead of cynically trash talking games you have no interest in playing on message boards. The 90s were a wild west time.

>>6605902
seething

Imagine actually liking good GAMES instead of going in for the fucking style over substance trash of the PS1 and N64.
The Saturn was the best console of that generation and only people who cared about real games knew that. You forced Sega to make Sonic Adventure shit for the DC, but they also continued to make real goddamn games which you hated and masturbated over the garbage PS2 and Gamecube instead. Fuck you all for killing the last game company to care about actual goddamn videogames.

>>6605902
>giant a are you faggot fucking
???

>>6602357
Stolar did nothing wrong.

>>6606264
Fuck that longnose tribe supremacist

>>6602478
Nobody cares

>>6606243
yes sugar tits

>>6602357
>UK gamer act like Saturn "success"
Hat man gaming is one big sore loser

>>6606269
The Sega Shiturn fears the Jew.

>>6602541
>made the SHITTURN a 3D Console
The Saturn was designed as a 3D console and the designers had 3D in mind from the Start. That's why they went with fast and efficient 32-bit RISC architecture vs the Motorola 68020 that Sega of America wanted.

>>6606990
VDP1 being sprite-oriented held it back. SGI's hardware would've been much better for Sega, but the stupid Japs turned it down so they went to Nintendo instead.

>the ______ is ___ our ______

THE SATURN IS:
BLANKITY
BLANKITY
BLANK!

>>6607102
kek

>>6607027
SGIs hardware proved to be inferior with what Nintendo produced. Sega made the right choice. Sony however made the best choice that generation and engineered a far superior piece of hardware than either competitors for a multitude of reasons.

>>6607129
>just making shit up
What’s wrong with you?

>>6607132
None of what I said is made up. Thank you for conceding.

>>6607102
nice

>>6607027
Not really. We have no idea what SGI offered Sega back then. Only that Sega of Japan turned it down. For all we know it was much more primitive than what eventually ended up in the N64. And what ended up in the N64 was specifically designed for using cartridges where it can just read data directly. It has a very small texture cache as a result and it's why the Expansion Pak was required for the N64DD.

VDP1 being sprite oriented doesn't really hold back the Saturn either. If you understand it you can pull off good 3D on par with the PS1 as we can see from top end Saturn games and Homebrew developers. What holds the Saturn back more is Bus Contention and fragmented memory.

>>6607102
Is Stolar the biggest meme on this board next to Kalinske?

>>6607129
>SGIs hardware proved to be inferior with what Nintendo produced
Have you seen the average 3D Saturn game?

>>6607169
Quads are objectively worse and less efficient for 3D games than triangles, all because Sato insisted on supporting 2D games instead of realising that 3D was the future.

And no, Saturn can't do 3D as well as the PSX regardless of how skilled the programmer is.

>>6607321
In general the Saturn can draw more polygons than the N64. However the N64 can draw prettier polygons that are perspective correct and supports modern things like texture tiling and what not. So N64 can get away with drawing huge polygons that don't distort and can tile textures across them while the Saturn, and PS1 to a certain degree, can't. So it ends up with a trade off. N64 is going to pull a head for your 3D platformers/adventure games with big levels/worlds, but Saturn and PS1 are going to come out ahead for games that push more fine details like say a 3D fighters, or 3D platformers/adventure games that focus on more confined/tighter worlds. This is why you don't see N64 3D Fighters pushing models on par with Saturn and PS1 3D Fighters, and even fewer that hit 60fps.

When you look at what Sega was aiming to bring home from the Arcade, it becomes more clear why they turned down what SGI was offering.

>>6607349
>When you look at what Sega was aiming to bring home from the Arcade, it becomes more clear why they turned down what SGI was offering.
No that makes no sense at all actually. Daytona would've run way better on whatever they had planned.

>>6607169
Except that wasn't an issue, since the Saturn could use a RAM cartridge as well, and even one that ran at the correct frequency, instead of the bodge-job Nintendo did with the Xpak.

>>6607342
>Quads are objectively worse and less efficient for 3D games than triangles
There's arguments that can be made in favor of either side. Especially if we go back to around 1993 when this was being developed and standards weren't established in the industry yet. Considering Sega's 3D Arcade hardware was using Quads at the time it makes sense that they went with Quads.
>all because Sato insisted on supporting 2D games instead of realising that 3D was the future.
The PS1 also supports 2D Sprites that are also 4 sided. The big difference with the Saturn that gives it an edge with 2D isn't VDP1, it's VDP2 and all it's background layers. The main reason Sato went with quads was because him and the rest of the team had no experience working with actual polygons and 3D accelerators like AM2. Their experience was with System 32 and sprite scaling/distorting tech. They weren't able to pull anyone from AM2 as AM2 was busy making arcade games.
>And no, Saturn can't do 3D as well as the PSX regardless of how skilled the programmer is.
I didn't say exactly as well as. I said it can pull off good 3D that looks on par with the PS1. Which when you look at top level Saturn stuff, that definitely is the case. Yeah PS1 stuff that came out after the Saturn was dead may be beyond what we saw from the Saturn in it's life, but who knows what developers could have pushed out of the system if it was still on the market.

>>6607353
It makes perfect sense as at the time they were aiming to port things like Virtua Fighter and Virtua Racing. And the Saturn was able to run Daytona USA and Sega Rally just fine as evidenced by the port of Sega Rally and the later Circuit Edition port of Daytona. The original port was just rushed.
>>6607359
The RAM carts didn't come out until mid 1996 and that was only 1MB. The 4MB one didn't come out until late 1997. 2 years after the release of the Saturn. The SGI hardware needed more RAM to work from than what the released Saturn had + the 4MB Cart. Other wise it needed to work off of Carts. Sega wanted to go with CDs as they were cheaper to produce and gave more space. It's why the Jupiter project was eventually scrapped.

>>6607385
That Circuit Edition port was so disappointing. It looks and plays nothing like Daytona. Either way I'm sure that whatever SGI came up with was better at 3D than the Saturn, that's not a very impressive feat.

>>6607390
>That Circuit Edition port was so disappointing. It looks and plays nothing like Daytona.
Which has nothing to do with it's graphical performance.
>Either way I'm sure that whatever SGI came up was better at 3D than the Saturn, that's not a very impressive feat.
No one but Sega and SGI saw what SGI came up with. Sega wasn't offered the N64 in 1994. They were offered a half baked chip set that they turned down because they didn't feel the performance was up to what they had for the games they were looking to port(Virtua Fighter).

Finally, can you show me a 3D Fighter on the N64 that runs at 60fps with the level of detail on the character models that say Virtua Fighter 2, Fighting Vipers, Fighters Megamix, Last Bronx, or Dead or Alive have?

>>6607380
Due to architectural particulars, any Saturn game that could/would hypothetically look as good or better than later PS1 games would involve notably more development time, in order to squeeze the required performance from its convoluted hardware.

>>6607396
>No one but Sega and SGI saw what SGI came up with
>They were offered a half baked chip set that they turned down because they didn't feel the performance was up to what they had for the games they were looking to port(Virtua Fighter)

>>6607404
Which if the system had done better for it to still be on the market when late gen PS1 stuff was coming out, that wouldn't have been an issue. The PS2 is proof of that.

>>6605289
based Bernie, keep fighting the good fight

>>6607409
PS2 managed to pull it off due to having an install base twice as large as all the other consoles combined (owing to many people buying it for its DVD play capabilities, at a time when higher-end DVD players still cost a fair bit). It's easier to entice devs into making games for your shitty arch when you're the biggest game in town. At best, Saturn would still be trading blows with the N64 for a distant 2nd place finish behind the PS1.

>>6607405
Yes really. From what info has come out on the subject that's honestly the best conclusion we can come to. When SGI went to Nintendo with it Nintendo had their own team of Engineers work on polishing that shit up into what eventually became the N64. And we know what Sega was offered their team didn't feel matched the performance of what they were developing and wouldn't be good enough in time for the 1994 release date they were shooting for. So from that we can conclude that what Sega was offered wasn't the N64, but instead something far less polished.

The whole mythology that Tom Kalinske has tried to spread that there was jealousy and feuds between Sega of Japan and Sega of America, and that Sega of Japan kept the Saturn secret from Sega of America has been disproven by countless other people involved in the company during that time that only idiots would continue to believe it.
>>6607421
>PS2 managed to pull it off due to having an install base twice as large as all the other consoles combined
Which is what I was touching on when I said "had the system done better for it to still be on the market when late gen PS1 stuff was coming out."
> (owing to many people buying it for its DVD play capabilities, at a time when higher-end DVD players still cost a fair bit)
This is a myth that has been regurgitated so long people now take it as fact.
> At best, Saturn would still be trading blows with the N64 for a distant 2nd place finish behind the PS1.
Which was enough to keep Japanese devs interested and even some western Devs like EA. What pissed them off enough to drop the system was the announcement of the Dreamcast.

>>6607432
>So from that we can conclude that what Sega was offered wasn't the N64, but instead something far less polished.
Still would've handled 3D better than the Saturn. They should've refined what they were offered instead of designing the clusterfuck that was the Saturn.

>>6607432
>Which is what I was touching on
Investing the devhours into writing an engine from the ground up specifically to use a single architecture would have only happened if the Saturn was wildly successful, which is simply impossible, even in the best-case optimistic scenario. Even if Saturn would have sold 2.5x what it did in the West, it would still be way far from the PS1, thus mostly ignored by devs, unless Sega decided to moneyhat them (and I find it highly unlikely that, even with the better sales, Sega would have the funds to constantly moneyhat titles).
>What pissed them off enough to drop the system was the announcement of the Dreamcast.
Western devs had dropped the system some while before DC was announced (admittedly, in great part due to SoA's retardation). In EA's case I remember some fuckery regarding Sega Sports, and EA being pissed off at not having exclusivity for sports titles.

>>6607443
>Still would've handled 3D better than the Saturn.
How do you possibly know that? Sega of America was pushing for a Motorla 68020 CPU. And if that's what CPU they had paired with this SGI chipset I can assure that it definitely wouldn't be able to compete with the dual SH-2s in the Saturn.
> They should've refined what they were offered instead of designing the clusterfuck that was the Saturn.
Put yourself in their shoes. It's 1994, your console is to release in November. You've already started producing libraries and software for it as well as devkits, some of which has been sent out to developers. Here comes your American branch with this system that uses an expensive SGI based chipset that's not polished and is most likely buggier than what you have. It won't easily integrate into your existing design that you're putting into the final stages of R&D right now, thus requiring a whole redesign. SGI most likely wont have enough chips ready for you to release in November either. Finally the system isn't really performing as well as what you have from what you've been shown. Most likely because it's still very early prototype hardware. What do you do? Throw everything out and start R&D over on the hopes this chipset will work out? Or just go with what you have that's almost ready?

>>6607450
> Even if Saturn would have sold 2.5x what it did in the West, it would still be way far from the PS1, thus mostly ignored by devs
Didn't stop them from developing for the N64 which was just as convoluted when compared to the PS1. And it was also far behind the PS1 in sales by comparison. And again Japanese Devs and devs like EA were still pushing out stuff for the Saturn.
>Western devs had dropped the system some while before DC was announced
They started with the "Saturn is not our future" comment at E3 1997. Which was effectively an early DC announcement. There's a reason Sega of Japan wasn't happy with that and other BS Stolar did between then and the DC launch. Which is why they ultimately fired him.
>In EA's case I remember some fuckery regarding Sega Sports, and EA being pissed off at not having exclusivity for sports titles.
That was after they were already pissed about being burned by Sega dropping the Saturn early.

>>6607460
>Or just go with what you have that's almost ready?
Considering what was almost ready was having a hard time running Virtua Fighter, the flagship game for the platform early on, I would delay it and work with the SGI version.

>>6607476
>Considering what was almost ready was having a hard time running Virtua Fighter,
Considering less than a year later they had a better port of it up and running and a stellar port of it's sequel right around the corner along with Sega Rally and Virtua Cop, I think that argument goes out the window.

>>6607483
Releasing a better port later and giving it away to early adopters was a kind gesture but the damage was already done. The fact it was given away is a tacit admission of guilt.

>>6607475
>N64 which was just as convoluted when compared to the PS1
It was way less convoluted than the Saturn, and that's important. It had one CPU, one GPU, and a pseudo-unified memory pool, unlike the 2 CPUs, 2 GPUs, and whatever the fuck passed for a memory system in the Saturn.

>>6607489
Yet has nothing to do with the graphical performance of the hardware and is irrelevant to this discussion.

>>6607492
This is a broad oversimplification of things. You can find interviews from developers of the time mentioning that they felt the N64 was just as complicated if not more complicated than the Saturn.

>>6607494
When the launch titles disappoint it speaks to the overall performance of the hardware.

>>6607497
That was more due to the (admittedly odd) limitations of the N64 architecture, than actual design logic. It was, in a way, the difference of having to make a steering wheel out of glued toothpicks, versus making a two-piece steering wheel that also happens to be located in the back seat.

Hardware doesnt matter, it is MARKETING which sells games. People need to be told what to buy, what to think, and what to play. And Sony did understand that better than anyone. All this Sony make.believe and opinion shaping bullshit still echoes back from comments on this very board. As any proper Psychopath Sony understood that the average person will always side with the perceived winner. And thats what Sony has been posing as ever since. Read their corporate drivel, its quite hilarious.

>>6602735
> superior intellect
> best ideas sega of america had was putting a 32-bit CPU into a cartridge to extend the life of a system based on hardware designs from 1986
> fails in spectacular fashion
> this is superior intellect
Also reminder that American's are completely delusional and live in fantasy land.

>>6607503
Again, when a better version comes out less than a few months later, this argument goes out the window. And even then it must not have been that disappointing since at launch in 1994 the Saturn outsold the PS1 in Japan thanks to Virtua Fighter.
>>6607508
When I'm left trying to figure out which example in the analogy is the Saturn and which is the N64, I think it's safe to say it you've failed to make your point. Why don't we listen to what Factor 5 had to say on the situation:
https://www.ign.com/articles/1998/02/25/whats-wrong-with-music-on-the-n64

>>6607510
>American's are completely delusional
You might wanna add guillible to that.

>>6607515
>less than a few months later
Five months later.

>>6607510
No, SoA's best idea was bundling Sonic with the Genesis whereas SoJ wanted to bundle fucking Altered shitty Beast, which is the only reason SEGA is even relevant to this day.

Thank your American masters, peasant.

>>6607489
You're completely misinformed about virtua fighter and Remix on the Saturn.

Keep stolar great again

IDK but saturn is prolly my top console of all time. Try to stop me.

>>6607509
Oh yeah, like the ouya. Or the gamecubes massive ad campaigns in britain. And the way stadia is being marketed, its the next big thing. Do u not even invest. Bro?

>>6609004
just emulate bro

>>6609120
>emulate

>>6607515
>Why don't we listen
Factoer 5 never developed a single Saturn game, so it sounds like a bit of ass-pull hyperbole.
Fact is, the N64 was not *that* complicated. Yes, the lack of a dedicated sound processor was quite noveld for the time (it would ironically become the standard for regular PCs after nVidia stopped producing the SoundStorm integrated mobo accelerator), but it was just newtech, not actual design complexity (like that 8-chip monstruosity that was the Saturn).
The only difficulties in coding for it were the ridiculously small memory caches devs had at their disposal. SGI designs wanted loads of memory, legacy of being developed from renderfarm tech, but having lots of memchips would make a mass-consumer product prohibitively expensive for the mid-90s. Nintendo gimped the design, with the halfway measure of using the Xpak (which, however, didn't work exactly as the already-existing internal memory).

>>6608991
Bernie already did in 1997.
Cope & dilate saturntranny.

>>6611846
mental health is not your future :(