/vr/ - Retro Games

no

no

good think there's a trillion user made maps available that fit any style you may like. go nuts

>>6535821
Doom's a collectathon?

>>6535821
no

>>6535821
Doom already did a lot to make key hunting relatively painless. I think that was even a point in the original design document.

This rule was badly abused in the 90's

>>6535821
This question warranted it's own thread. We need at least 7 DOOM threads up simultaneously at all times.

>>6535821
No, what would it improve? Like, Knee Deep In The Dead could for instance have all its keys replaced with switches that open doors, omitting the keys altogether, but how would that make the levels better?
The keys gives the player a simple and straightforward objective without convolution, that they perhaps don't offer much practical difference from what could just be a remote switch action I don't think is a problem.

I don't think any of the original Doom or Doom 2 levels are labyrinthine enough to be confusing to navigate, short of the small literal maze in E3M7.

>>6536110
Not everyone is good at mapping, is just the thing. I think bad use of that thinking lead to a lot of people irrationally hating any and all backtracking, however how minor, however how well done.

>>6536291
Backtracking when done right is okay. A great map in 90s FPS leads you all around, shows you all the great and interesting gimmicks on the way but leaves you with the feeling that you made actual progress. That's the gold standard however and not many map builders pulled that off.

>>6536412
Might add that a great map, for example in the BUILD games, should leave you plenty of opportunity for exploring on your own and even alternative routes to a goal...or even just cool parts that are "just there" but feel like they belong. Also clever secrets.

Keys are a good way to make players take detours and let the devs reuse areas of a level in different ways

>>6536412
>Backtracking when done right is okay.
I agree. When thing is good it's good.

no

>>6536437
You funny fucker. Eat shit.

>>6535821
So every level is a linear tunnel? No thanks

>>6536930
Isn't that how modern FPS work?

>>6535821
keyhunting was the best part of doom and you know it

>get blue key
>run to the other side of the map
>blue door opens a door with the red key inside
>run all the way back to the other side
>open the red door
>get the yellow key
amazing

No

Think about it like this.If TNT Evilution had no keys it would still be a slog due to level design choice no?

>>6537005
TNT uses a lot of progression not using keycards, i.e. linedef triggers, shootable walls, switches, etc. I'm sure it would be just as obtuse even without keycards. It would probably still be boring due to easy enemy placement.

>>6535821
Aside from maybe a few maps in Episode 3 the levels are simple enough to navigate even without the automap. Learn to navigate, zoomer. Pay attention to the landmarks, the corridors aren't samey.

>>6535821
Without keys, the only way to keep the levels from becoming a Halo/CoD straight line would be to use switches and walkover linedef actions in their place. But then you realize that one of the biggest benefits of Keys is now missing. Doors locked by keys are often color coded, and often shown to the player before the key itself, which helps the player remember a point in the map to return to after obtaining the key.
This is why "switch hunts" are generally frowned upon in the community, as they often lack anything to signify what the switch actually opened.

>DOOM WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER AS A BORING LINEAR HALLWAY WALKING SIMULATOR LIKE HALF-LIFE GUYS
Fucking idiotic children, please stop playing videogames.

Getting those keys is a major trigger for certain spawns. When you're going in blind and codeless, you don't know that something is gonna pop up in that hallway you have to go back to to unlock a door. It's an effective way to create tension.

>>6537189
Based and redkeypilled

>>6537189
Why not just have more collectibles? And I'm not talking about collectibles that are mandatory to be picked up. If you're familiar with open ended roguelike RPGs, they have a lot of collectible items that motivate you to check every room and keep the exploration engaging. Have an inventory system too to store medkits, ammo, and upgrades to be used later.

Switch hunting and key hunting are equally shit.

>>6535821
I don't understand all the backlash against keys, they allow the level to be open enough for the player to explore as they want in a non-linear fashion but also allow the gating of content to ensure some of it is accessed through the proper sequences linearly. It's just a mechanism that can be used well to make a level better or poorly to make a level worse, they aren't inherently bad and make things worse outside of brainlets who get upset about them because they can't remember where to use them.

>>6537215
How the fuck can you shit on switch and key hunting while unironically suggesting the genre be turned into a collecthon? People loved not being able to beat Jet Force Gemini unless you rescued all the tribals, oh and Donkey Kong 64 now that was a classic.

>>6537230
>I don't understand all the backlash against keys
Zoomers grew up with CoD and need all levels to be linear squiggly lines littered with explosion set pieces and AI buddies that do all the brain stuff for them otherwise they get bored extremely fast.

>>6536110
Fun fact: Romero's rules aren't necessary to make a good level, specially that one. They're just rules Romero applied to his own levels (that apart from E1 all suck).
The fuck does he mean by "better understand the 3D space" anyways?

>>6537215
Doom has lots of secrets that often contain powerups and strong weapons.

>>6535821
Yes, it would have been a lot better if it was just rooms crowded with monsters waiting to be exploded with rockets, the most satisfying thing about Doom is killing two or three zombiemen with a single shotgun shot, dozens of them with a super shotgun, splintering cacodemons using the BFG at Tricks and Traps, "perforating" your way out using the plasma when cornered by a legion of demons and spectres.
Killing is where the fun is, the puzzles can go fuck themselves. In fact, Doom II became a lot more fun once I memorized the route to each key since it stops being "hunting" to just mindless killing.

>>6535821
no

no

>>6535821
press F11 in-game to turn down your gamma, OP.

>>6537242
I'm suggesting that no collectibles should be mandatory, can't you read.

>>6537260
Nah, Doom only had a few powerups that are triggered instantly, 9 weapons that can all be acquired like 30 minutes into a game, and almost no permanent bonuses. If the player was given an item storage to be used in a boss battle or something later it would incentivize them to collect invincibility spheres for example. The ammo backpacks were pretty good at incentivizing exploration too, but picking more than one doesn't give you any permanent bonus. Doom needs like the ammo backpack that would increase the health cap too. Turning Doom into an RPG would be pretty fun actually, gives you a reason to find and kill all the enemies.

>>6537198
kys doomnigger

>>6535821
Wolfenstein was even worse. But honestly fuck people who defend keys.

>>6536135
Doomfags need they own separate board or go to /vg/.

>>6537345
doomtards are fucking autists who will shit on you for using a modern source port.

>>6537327
Sounds like you just want to play an RPG, which is not what Doom is.

>>6537345
There's one faggot that keeps making threads outside of the general, and I'm 90% sure he's the same faggot that brings up half life at every given opportunity. He's a literal autist and a general waste of space.

>>6537354
half life ruined fps forever

>>6537420
kys

>>6535821
I do op. I hate key hunting in old FPS. Thank god games like goldeneye and perfect dark put an end to it.

>>6537352
Yeah doom is toddler's first fps game.

>>6537448
I mean, I was a toddler when I first played it 25 years ago, I guess.

>>6535821
>wanting game to be mechanically simpler and shallower
I bet you are a consolepleb

>>6537005
Not having keys would not improve TNT's good levels, and certainly not its bad levels.

>>6537420
There you are. Get help.

>>6537327
>9 weapons that can all be acquired like 30 minutes into a game
You should try playing pistol start if that bothers you; play each level like it's the first where you only have a pistol and 50 bullets. It makes every weapon spawn and secret more important and a well-paced level will make even something like the chaingun or SSG a treat to find.

>>6537420
You're like a retard eating rotten bananas out of garbage cans. Moving from can to can, complaining that discarded coffee grounds have made the bananas too gritty and distasteful. But there you go, into the next.
Find a new hobby if this one is "ruined", retard.

>>6537328
kys halfzoomer

>>6538106
>1998 game
>zoomer

reported and saged

reported and saged

>>6536954
Best part of doom for me as a kid was finding fan made wads that had the most cyber demons

>>6537189
Unless the switches were color coded

>reach door
>no key
>look around
>find key
>now can open door and progress
It is satisfying. Reaching an area that can't be cleared with current equipment, and then finding the equipment that allows you to clear that area is one of the most basic and satisfying ways that a game can reward the player.

>>6535821
The levels are incredibly easy to navigate if you're not retarded. In fact the keys are there to guide you through sections up to the exit rather than giving you one giant map with no guideline on where to go next.

>>6540627
Doesn't make it not boring and repetitive.

>>6540627
this is probably the best post in this thread...you see a yellow door you cant open, so you know something good is behind that door. you go searching for a yellow key, and when you find it, you immediately remember that door from earlier and go back to it

>>6540617
this too

>>6540606
Problem with doing that in Doom is that people already associate color coded doors/switches with needing a key. So it will very likely lead to people running around trying to find a key that doesn't exist before realising it isn't needed. Alongside that, you might as well just be using the keys to begin with if you insist on color coding them.

>>6540687
Then go fucking play CoD you limp wristed nigger cock worshipping zoomer faggot

>>6540687
OP wasn't asking about your sex life lol.

>>6540747
Doom is the CoD of classic FPS games.

>>6540687
>boring and repetitive.
It's a very specific minor detail to really find boring and repetitive.
It's like saying the simple act of having to activate a switch or teleporter to exit every level gets boring and repetitive.
Its an empty complaint that says more about your tastes in general more so than the game in question.

no

>>6535821
>Does anyone else think Doom would've been miles better if there were no keys? Action is great but every single stage is padded with a search for keys and maneuvering through samey looking labyrinths..
this is what led a bunch faggots to made brutal doom

>>6537448
That's Wolfenstein 3D

>>6536941
Isn't that why I'm still playing DOOM?

>>6540687
You're wrong.

>>6540606
>lets just do everything the keys already do, the game would be better that way
Legit question, are you inebriated or have you at some point sustained a serious head injury?

>>6537349
On this board? That's seldom seen, even people who aren't interested in gameplay mods will widely recommend PrBoom+, Chocolate Doom, and Crispy Doom.

>>6541281
Brutal Doom is pretty shitty, but you're still playing existing Doom levels which all use the keys like before.

>>6536958
>exploration is amazing
Yes, it is. Following a fucking hallway for 5 fucking goddamn hours like your precious goddamn pile of shit Half-Life is not.

>>6542319
So how's life at the asylum?

>>6542319
fuck off dwterminator

>>6535821
name a more iconic duo

>>6535821
>samey looking labyrinths..
If we were talking Wolf 3D, I'd understand this comment. But Doom's levels are pretty distinctive and varied.

>>6537249
Like it or not Romero's maps are the most beloved ones of the first game and influenced future level design. They were also followed by Tom and Sandy.

>>6544359
Doesn't mean they're good. Look at how many people love Fortnite or PUBG and all that other crap.

Doom Eternal zoomer wrote this thread.

>>6542418
>not berserk punching every demon you come across

>>6544419
Doom 4 and Eternal have keycards. OP's just being a conrtrarian fag for (you)s

I still don't understand how to use keys in my own maps.
Present a door you cannot enter
Place key further ahead
Then look back to door, or spawn in enemies when key is collected

>>6537345
Exactly, why the fuck are there always at least 2 Doom threads at any given time? I love Doom and Doom 2, but at some point the discussion just gets old, even with all the mods and hacks.

>>6535821

You're fundamentally misunderstanding what Doom is. you're thinking it's an action shooting game about going pew pew pew against monsters until you win.

Doom is a maze game. it's more like those first person RPG maze dungeon games than anything. Individual monsters are weak as hell. Rather than fight htem you fight the map and its design. The whole map is a puzzle for you to solve, solving it through both exploration and combat.

>>6545607
Played both. Can only remember a few times where you actually had to search the map for a keycard in doom 4 that wasn't "go down linear path, you got keycard, now backtrack or take this little shortcut to unlock the next path". And Doom Eternal... did that game even have keycards?

>>6545814
Are you really asking why people continue to discuss one of the most important and fun games of all the time? Have you tried not clicking on the thread?