/vr/ - Retro Games

OoT was so good a mere retread would have let down expectations. I just wish MM had better dungeons.

OP is a faggot

>>6471976
Didn't get the appeal when it came out either, save for the graphics, for n64 standards keep in mind. Majoras mask was a nostalgiabait for nintendrones who wanted an ocarina sequel. I guess they were thinking they'd make a fun zelda games by taking the worst parts of OoT and making them even more unplayable. Doesn't matter, drones loved it anyway, this is what they want this is what they get.

>>6471976
Aonuma holding a bet with Miyamoto that he can have a Zelda game made in only one year.

>>6471984
spbp and /thread.

>>6471996
>taking the worst parts of OoT and making them even more unplayable
This. I don't get why they chose to make a rom hack that focuses on the worst of OOT.

It and Link’s Awakening are the peak of the franchise. Op is a philistine.

>>6471976
>let's make the best zelda game ever

>>6472108
This. How is this so hard to understand?

>time limit
get good
>shit world
not an argument, explain why
>emphasis on mini-games
How?
>Tingle
the only people that get triggered by Tingle are insecure closeted fruity fags, he's a great comedy character
>resetting time breaks the flow
Then do everything you want to do before you need to save. With the inverted song of time you've got a couple hours, more than enough to finish any dungeon (strat fairies included).
Get good.

They were thinking that they'd make an experience which would appeal to some, but not all, people.
I know this is just a troll thread but there are really people that look at things like the larger emphasis on character interaction and puzzles over action and say "this game sucks" rather than saying "this game is not for me".

>>6471976
Thanks doc.

>>6471976
I actually prefer MM to OoT. Majora’s Mask was a very tight and refined world, and the repeating days made you intimately familiar with its characters and their stories. It had so much “soul” that this board never shuts up about. Ocarina of time was a good game, but it was huge and empty. Not that much fun.

>>6471976
another day, another zoomer filtered by one of the best zelda

>>6471976
>Tingle
You leave Tingle alone!

The Zora and Goron masks are fucking incredible. Nothing in any other Zelda game comes even close to being that satisfying to use. You got all the game's side content wrapped in the stories of people reacting to the end of the world, with the whole Clock Town bunch of subquests almost being its own adventure game you can choose to completely ignore, with masks rather than point and click prompts. Not to mention those dungeons, definitely the best and most complex of any 3D Zelda, a smaller, way more tightly designed overworld (very much unlike Ocarina's), some really open-ended, action focused boss fights and hell, even a camera for good measure cause why not. You are locked into playing the dungeons in a set order, true, but there's so much side content and so many ways to tackle a day, it feels way more free than any other 3D Zelda game, barring Breath. And, despite the unfortunately clunky Lover's Sidequest and other such rigid sidequests, I actually think being forced to be efficient with your time actually helps the game. It limits you dicking around, makes you plan what do you want and where to go next.

Yeah "soul" or otherwise I think this is still one of the best 3D action adventure games of its generation.

>>6472269
Based opinion

>op got filtered
They were thinking about making the best Zelda game and succeeded in doing so

>>6472269
zora, fierce deity, and wolf are the best transformations in the series

>>6472192
>not an argument, explain why
>>6472269
>tightly designed overworld
The overworld feels like a fucking rom hack of different areas just glued together with random geometry inbetween. OOT may be empty but it at least made sense.

>>6472304
>realism for zelda
you need to go back

>>6472240
Let me guess, you also think Zelda II is good because "muh NEShard".

>>6472293
Fierce deity's cool and can save you time if you need to dispose of a boss for a day, but it is a little too braindead in my opinion. You can't even use it outside boss battles, which would have been way more fun. You know, it actually pisses me off to hear some people haven't even tried to beat Majora without it. Can't say I'm a huge fan unfortunately.

You are spot on on the Zora mask though, nothing beats swimming like a fucking dolphin. I will never not be mad they fucked it up so much in the remake.

>>6472304
I'll take the overworld being full of stuff and fun/fast to traverse (even moreso with the awesome Goron mask) over it having fucking nothing in it and being ten times larger for the sake of it, anon.

>>6472315
if you hate zelda 2 then you are a shit gamer

>>6472323
>Fierce deity's cool and can save you time if you need to dispose of a boss for a day, but it is a little too braindead in my opinion.
it's more about what it represents, the collective wills of all people in termina, and serves as a call back to the first zelda's sword beam which didn't make it into the OoT release version

>>6472324
I finished Zelda II as a teen, as did MM. Doesn't change the fact that they're shit.
I'd still take II over MM though.

>>6472323
>You are spot on on the Zora mask though, nothing beats swimming like a fucking dolphin. I will never not be mad they fucked it up so much in the remake.
they didn't fuck it up, they improved the immediate controls and they make you invincible when you swift swim

Nice, recently restarted on emulator.
It was actually the first 3D Zelda I played, for some reason I never got around playing OoT, so MM will always stay MY definite 3D Zelda. There is just something comfy about it, the Horror Kid story taxes me differently than as a kid and I get coom feels for many of the females.

>>6472339

>>6471976
No need to be scared of time, OP.

>>6472331
no you are shit

>>6471976
>time limit
Game mechanic that adds to the strategy of playing the game. Also ties in with the plot of the game. Also get good.
>shit world
There is so much detail in the world of Termina and the characters that Link interact with. Like seriously?
>emphasis on mini-games
What emphasis on mini-games? There are as much mini-games in Majora's Mask as there are in Ocarina of Time
>Tingle
Tingle isn't even that much of a hindrance of the game. He sells you maps for rupees and that's it. If you have a personal annoyance with him, that isn't a credible argument.
>resetting time breaks the flow
Resetting time is part of the flow. And again ties in with the strategy of playing the game.

>>6471976
>>6472192
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYpryVA5WQQ

Angry Videogame Nerd in this video basically outlines why Majora is not really that good of a game. Not only is the 3-day thing a pain in the ass (changes of day cancelling out events, and having to do dungeons in one sitting , IS annoying) but other things like
>goron race
>powder keg to access goron race
>some masks are over-elaborate to get

I mean its still good, but people who say its the best Zelda game or whatever - please. It is an interesting adventure when you are in the right frame of mind for it, but nowhere near Ocarina, Link to the Past or Wind Waker.
The first section of the game sucks, and it can put you off a game permanently when that happens.

>muh time limit

you can travel back in time as much as you want

>>6472269
Based. Rolling as a goron is the most satisfying type of movement in any Zelda game. Other than that, I know the game is not exactly hard, but its definitely a step up from OoT.

>>6472612
And you're not even punished with death if you run out of time. You just reset to Day 1 anyway and it's treated like you shut the console off without saving (i.e. lose all progress since the last Song of Time save).

>>6472595
the best sword in the game should be hard to fucking get, AVGN kept falling off fucking ledges, he shouldn't obtain the gilded sword

>>6472595
The ambience, theme and characters are very interesting, but the execution of the side quests is just really off-putting, especially when the game relies on it for longevity as there isn't much to theain quest.

>>6472595 #
The ambience, theme and characters are very interesting, but the execution of the side quests is just really off-putting, especially when the game relies on them for longevity as there isn't much to the main quest.

>>6471976
>time limit
It’s annoying for dungeons, but the time mechanic works really well in the world and makes it more lively
>shit world
Unironically best in the series
>emphasis on mini-games
What?
>Tingle
Even if you don’t like the character, he’s very minor. It’s not like he’s always following you around.
>resetting time breaks the flow
Meme

>>6472667
in what fucking universe were the side quests poorly executed? you use the bomber's notebook to keep track of npc schedules and repeat time until you figure out what's going on and what you need to do. you can physically follow them from point a to point b if you have to. are you the retard from game grumps? did you miss the bombers notebook?

>>6472595
>The first section of the game sucks, and it can put you off a game permanently when that happens.
This is why I've never played it past the very beginning. I never owned it when it was new and was playing other games. Later on as an adult I tried it out a couple times but just lost interest. By this time there were other Zelda games to play that weren't a pain in the ass in the very beginning of the game.

>>6472689
>What?
>>6472192
>How?
>>6472537
>What emphasis on mini-games? There are as much mini-games in Majora's Mask as there are in Ocarina of Time
https://zelda.gamepedia.com/Mini-Game
As already said somewhere in the thread, it's one of the bad things in OOT that was expanded in MM, only even more annoying and you must do some of them over multiple days.

>>6472790
>must
Wrong. You have to do no minigames for story completion, and iirc, not even masks. Most of those only give you pieces of heart anyways. They are the weakest part of the game, but you can very safely ignore them.

That's the beauty of Majora, baby. So many different ways of playing it.

>>6472595
Quick question, why would you post a link to a zoomertube video with a cringe name like “angry video game nerd”? Why would you even watch such a video? Are you incapable of forming opinions on your own? Are you incapable of articulating your opinions? Literally why do you think I would give a shit what a subhuman youtube film maker thinks about anything?

>>6472335
except you can do that in the original as well and you aren't forced to swim slowly or drain all of your magic
>>6472595
AVGN is so unbelievably dumb and bad in this video that i'm surprised you linked this

>>6471976
Must have something to do with Miyamoto giving Aonuma full liberty as a creator. He (Miyamoto) basically stepped aside from the franchise at the time.
Still a good game though, although I do hate Tingle, it was very surprising to me as a kid to play a dark-ambienced Zelda game, reminded me a lot of Link's Awakening's catastrophic vibe.

>>6471976
They were thinking "how can we reuse assets from OoT but make it seem different", and the way they did that was by adding in a bunch of gay shit to differentiate it from its older brother. Majora will always be the nigger of the series. I shit you not, hand to God, if you ask somebody what their favorite Zelda game is and they say Majora's Mask, you will know with 100% certainty that they are a complete faggot, one of those nerds that thinks he's a poet and unironically likes shit like Harry Potter and is probably a moderator on a dead anime forum.

>>6472790
meh, the mini games are there to get gud at shooting, throwing bombs, aiming bombchus goron rolling etc, etc. and the motivation is to earn a piece of heart.
plus you should have enough hearts by halfway to complete the game no problem, making the mini games optional

>>6472824
>So many different ways of playing it
No, actually that would be Ocarina of Time, the game that intentionally allows you to do dungeons/acquire items out of order and provides 10x more freedom of choice than Gayjora with its 4 linear dungeons.

>>6473174
you cannot swim slowly in the original, it always forces you to speed up
the remake is only an improvement and only those who haven't swallowed the magic has a use now pill become offended

you stock pile so many rupees in the bank and there is yet another seventh bottle, so if you really need to swiftly swim for any duration of time you can get some use out of money and the milk

>>6473237
sure you can, don't hold down a

>>6472992
rolfe is a genx youtuber bro
most zoomers were still in their diapers during his heyday
literally your first day on the interwebs?

I remember enjoying the atmosphere and the graphics quite a lot. But the time limit thing was a killer. In Zelda games I want to be able to take my time exploring, but the moon thing was instant anxiety, can’t smell the roses. Is there not some way to pause it indefinitely?

>>6473246
that's fucking retarded, you have way more control and freedom of movement in the remake

>>6473272
No. You can slow the clock down, but if you can't handle the clock, this game's not for you.

>>6473283
i think you're fucking retarded if you think fast swimming is too difficult and forcing you to get infinite magic just to not move at a snail pace is a good idea.

>>6473250
I have been on the internet longer than you have been alive. You are obviously a zoomer if you think people give a shit about youtube. I remember when that website came out, it was slightly useful for hosting AMVs but you zoomers started worshipping it.

>>6473297
I think you're fucking retarded if you actually feel the need to patch the superior version of the game (which doesn't even adjust the lighting)

>>6471976

>>6473364
when did i say anything about patching anything? are you ok?

>>6473417
die nigger

>>6472206
>rather than saying "this game is not for me".
That's a hard pill to swallow for some.

>>6472192
>no, no, no you’re not allowed to disagree this isn’t wholesome chungus at all! explain yourself NOW!

>>6472790
Most of the ones that give you valuable stuff aren’t even bad. ’

>>6473479
>no argument but here's my wojak pic gotta bounce seeya dudes ;P
consider dying

>>6473526
>no, no, no you can’t insult aesthetics, you need a rational, typed, peer reviewed argument no, no, no im getting my downvote button ready you have to debate me

>>6471976
I never really understood the hype around Majora's Mask. It's been nearly a decade since the initial fad of singing its praises started and it still seems like just contrarian hipster reactions to OoT being called the best game.

>>6472117
>>6472108
Oh wow, solid points made. You have convinced me that /vr/ is full of mindless morons

>>6473442
lol

>>6472595
>flying the shit opinion of a special needs student as your banner
You can't be this dumb, right?

>>6471976
>let's make players wait through the side quests that can drag over 3 days
>let's make players rush through the main dungeons so they can complete them in 3 days
The game is pants on head retarded.

The game has the same problems as Earthbound, when discussing the games people tend to talk about the world and how dark it is but when it comes to the gameplay most people start saying that is not for everybody and calling them plebs.
With Mother 2 you have a game with gameplay so outdated even for late 80s standards.
With Majora's Mask the team had to reuse most of the assets from Ocarina of Time so they have to also make the world and gameplay completely different (not to mention it was made in a year) and the end result was a mess, even Aonuma stated that he didn't know what on earth he was thinking when making the game.
Just because something is different doesn't mean is good.
Cute girls though.

>>6474218
Cool art to.

>>6474219

>>6474223

>>6474226

>>6474228

>>6474219
The concept and theme are great, it's like Link's Awakening put pushed even further. Shame how the gameplay missteped so hard.

And 3DS version is the best, boomer nostalgiafags can't accept that for some reason.

People hate Tingle because he's too relateable.

>>6471976
>time limit
I like it personally but will acknowledge it is a common complaint.
>shit world
Highly disagree, I'll argue OoT have a worst world overall. I'll admit the world could be better but compare to other games at the time it was on the better end of things.
>emphasis on mini-games
I can agree with that.
>Tingle
What wrong with Tingle? It be like me bitching about the fish on Wind Waker. It is a side character you get maps from. Completely optional. Even if he was objectively bad it shouldn't degrade the whole game by simply existing.
>resetting time breaks the flow
I'll admit there is a ton of truth in this. On casual runs you may as well reset if you want to do a new dungeon.

I feel you have room for a discussion with legit complaints but having your bias showing too much.

>>6474243
I was honestly surprised when i learned that people dislike him, fav character on the franchise.

>>6474250
He's awful and Majora's Mask is at fault for introducing that faggotry to the franchise.

>>6474218
>>6474234
How is the gameplay a mess or a misstep exactly, because of the time loop? For the main quest at least, the game gives you plenty of shortcuts to come back another day even if you are unable to do a dungeon in one cycle. Game still has much better bosses, dungeons that have more of a core gimmick/idea (like the Eagle Tower in Link's Awakening) and not just have you along finding keys and hitting switches like that horrible Fire Temple from Ocarina, an overworld with way more content (and not just Termina field, all the sub regions are way more tightly designed), mask transformations that are a joy to control... Plus, all the annoying sidequests can be ignored completely. You choose how involved you want to get in Clock Town, if you don't like Kafei he can be ignored, but on the other hand, getting a useful mask like the Bunny hood is as easy as talking to Guruguru then exploring the ranch a little.

I'd say Majora is rock solid from a strict design perspective and for my money, arguably better than Ocarina, as you would expect from such a direct sequel.

>>6474234
The 3DS version definitely makes the sidequests easier to handle, with making saving and passing time way more comfortable, but the retooled bosses are TERRIBLE. In the original you could defeat all of them in a number of ways. Odolwa has not even a set way to stun him, and Twinmold can be killed with arrows. Remake retooled them into your typical 3D Zelda bosses. Other changes like the transformations and ice arrows are also sort of baffling, it's not like they make the game unplayable or anything, but are generally too restrictive for their own good. One thing people forget to mention is, they made Goron Link faster and more able in hand to hand combat, providing even less of a reason to switch out of him, so, there's that. I honestly don't mind the changes to the visuals that much, game still looks fine.

>>6474243
>>6474250
Even his father is disappointed.

>>6474267
For me personally is the time travel and the fact that is the only way to save even in dungeons, i will give that i beat it once and never went back because i didn't enjoy it and it was the only new game i had back in the day.

MM is a terrible game. The game is all about redoing the same trivial tasks, which is why autists like it so much, it's comfort for them.

>>6474305
What's sad is even fixing people's lives through their side quests doesn't yield lasting satisfaction as it's undone as soon as you go back in time.

Unlike Ocarina,you can play Majora and still be fun because their interesting mechanic(you can hate them or not).
Ocarina is like Final Fantasy 3/4 or Double Dragon 2 while Majora is like Final Fantasy 5/6 or Cadillacs and Dinosaurs

>>6474306
This is actually a good life lesson. Real life people are also this way. Stop trying to fix their problems because people always go back on their bullshit. At least in MM you get a sweet mask for your troubles

>>6474218
I actually like that the game was rushed. Although I’m usually a nintendo fanboy who preaches that games shouldn't ship until they are polished and ready, but Majora’s Mask is a special case. Usually rushed games are bad. However the development team had just created OoT so they were at their peak. They knew the mechanics and were able to play around with ideas that couldn't fit into OoT. This lead to some very novel and interesting ideas. But because they game was rushed, it couldn't be polished into a completely smooth experience. It could be rough. A few awkwardly jagged places. But I loved that! I understand it may not be for everyone but I absolutely love it for what it is: a weird little addendum by the team who made one of the greatest games of all time. It didn’t have to be perfect, I never wanted that. I had just experienced OoT and wanted something a little different. MM succeeded wildly in that regard.

Who knows what the game would have looked like if it had another year to be improved on. It might have been a very different game. Kinda like how the Spaceworld demos for 2nd gen pokemon showed a completely different game from the highly polished games that were eventually released. Sometimes I wish I could travel to parallel worlds just to see what could have been, but that doesn’t change my appreciation for what I was able to experience. Some things are polished and some things aren’t, but they all have their own flavor. MM definitely had a flavor, and its not for everyone. But it is for me!

>>6474278
It's fair you dislike it anon, but I find nothing objectively bad about it, game gives you ample time to a lot with one day. Same way I'd say there's nothing inherently bad about classic Monster Hunter limiting your inventory and equipment, Pikmin 1 locking you into a bad ending, or console shmups/run and guns giving you a limited number of continues to force you to git gud. It's just how the game is set, with gameplay loops in mind.

Maybe you could revisit it now that you're a little more familiar with the game's quirks, perhaps you'll enjoy it a little more if you know what to aim for. I started really liking it when I replayed it on 3DS.

>>6473196
Right at the game's beginning, I would argue there's more value to having so much shit to do in the Swamp and Clock town than being locked into the first three dungeos as a kid, with grottos along the way. Hell, the first day with the deku kid basically gives you a preview of the town and tons of things to see. Personally I was never a huge fan of the OoT temples, they have great ambience but, save for the water temple and maybe the forest one a little, they are completely straightforward and formulaic. I'd say they are more about platforming and simple, room-contained puzzles than anything. Pure Aonuma, rather than MM's distilled Koizumi. Don't really appreciate doing something I don't enjoy out of order, so.

>>6474367
>I started really liking it when I replayed it on 3DS.
OP here, I played the Zelda Collector's Edition on Gamecube, so I realize it isn't the best (especially the mini-games due to the awful analog stick control), and I'm considering the 3DS version before I sour on the game any further.

>>6474397
>I played the Zelda Collector's Edition on Gamecube
Me too, that was my first exposure to the game. While I did enjoy it then, I had one massive issue. The game fucking crashed sometimes. You can see how awful that possibility was with a game where saving is handled that way. It did not really completely sour my experience, but it crashed right before getting the Ocarina at the beginning, then midway through Stone Tower.

Scarier than any moon on the sky.

I've played it on 3DS then emulated again, and I have had a much better time all of them. The gyro aiming is VERY nice, and if you had major grievances with the time loops, then 3DS is definitely your version. Again, the bosses are horrible, but you can just play the original again if you enjoy it on 3DS and want to see how they were. Majora works best when you know what to go for, so hope the remake helps you enjoy anon.

Here's a tip to make platforming and moving around way smoother: get the bunny hood as early as you can. To do this, talk to Guruguru the musician next to the laundry pool at night, then go to the ranch on the third day and look for the cuckoo keeper. You'll thank me when you have it for Woodfall and Snowhead lmao

>>6474423
>The gyro aiming is VERY nice
I always turn that stuff off, but it might come in handy for the shooting galleries, which thankfully have widened field of view compared to the original from what I've seen.
>get the bunny hood as early as you can
Already knew this. Stupid that it's needed this much in the game, but oh well, better than not having it I guess.

>>6474428
Eh, I don't think the bunny hood is needed at all. I've beaten the game without using it too much, it just makes certain sections easier, and honestly, it's just very nice that something like that exists at all in the game.

>>6472595
>basing your opinion on someone else's
>that someone else is a youtuber
Yeah, nah, you're a cunt.

>>6474367
What you've said about OoT's dungeons is just plain untrue. In addition to there being 3x as many as majora, and being able to play them in almost any order (even without glitches), most temples have a ton of optional areas and non-linear elements -- for one, you can often use keys on different doors, which let's you play through the dungeons in different ways. Not to mention there are many shortcuts and alternate paths you can take if you have particular items like the hookshot and bow. The Fire Temple is an especially good example as it has a lot of areas that can be played out of order and areas which you can't even access unless you play later dungeons first. That's all on top of the ambience and music of the dungeons being amazing. Majora's dungeons were a huge letdown and there were only 4 of them. Side quests are nice, but stalking somebody through a town isn't Zelda. Majora had little new to offer outside of social simulation elements which were rudimentary at best.

>>6475137
>not refuting the valid criticism avgn does to the game
>hurr durr e-celeb youtuber cancer go back zoom zoom

>>6475156
Anon, with all due respect. It sounds like it has been a long time since you played Ocarina. You are presenting key use being interchangeable in one of the Zeldas where the keys have the most restrictive use (fucking hell, the first three do not even have keys), save for the Forest Temple allowing you to get three keys from the get-go, doors are always locked by other doors in Ocarina, with the possible exception of the Water Temple. Hell, Shadow and Spirit are 100% linear gauntlets of challenges that are fine on their own. But honestly, I prefer how Majora dungeons give you a central gimmick to ponder through the whole dungeon, and how those shortcuts Ocarina can have are tied into arrows and transformations, cause you are expected to come back to the dungeons. They are fewer, but definitely meatier, quality over quantity.

If you like Ocarina you should also like Majora anon, and not even getting into the game's flavor, the enemy design is also way more open, boss like Odolwa or Wart have a million ways of fighting them. Compare them to, say, whack-a-Volvagia.

>areas which you can't even access unless you play later dungeons first
You mean, the scarecrow room. Is this not the one secret dungeon room in the whole game? I do not think it merits you advertising "most temples having tons of optional areas".

>Majora had little new to offer
Anon, the masks. Zora and Goron Link are ways to move around and dart through everything that, with how technology has advanced, to this day, has still not been replicated in Zelda. Not even close. And beyond how fast they move, there's tons of areas where tailored to them to the end of the game, in the case of Deku Link, giving the game air-based platforming for example, Ocarina does not have. The majority of the other masks are only used for one purpose, but there's one with plenty of use (Bunny hood, Stone, Bomb) and hell, making the Stalfos Knights and redeads march and dance with the corresponding mask.

>>6475156
Also
>3x as many as majora
So, are you counting the Well, Ice Cave and Gerudo Fortress? Should we also count Majora's Pirate Fortress, the Gibdo well (admittedly, the absolute worst ""dungeon"" out of all these games), Ikana Castle (with its own music and boss) and the two Skulltula houses, the most non-linear dungeons in these two games, perhaps barring the Gerudo Training Grounds?

Not even sure if you are counting those ones or not, but I think if we do, this should make the ratio 2X at most.

>>6475423
It sounds like you haven't played OoT in awhile because there are optional rooms in every dungeon. Even Deku tree has an area you can't reach without bombs. Again, this is on top of the fact you can play the dungeons out of order. Majora has more side quests but the game is highly linear compared to OoT and the dungeons simply don't measured up. I recommend playing through the game again with the intention of purposely seeking out hidden/optional areas because the dungeons have plenty of them, not to mention all of the grottos, fairy fountains, etc. which all together outnumber the number of explorable places in MM and can largely be found/entered at any time.

The difference between these two games comes down to how I approach playing them. When I start a new Ocarina file, I think "I can't wait to try X route this time", there are so many potential dungeon routes and progression sequences that every playthrough is unique. I never think about how I'm going to play through Majora because outside of sidequests that are largely optional, there's little to no room for variation. Despite its frills, MM is the simpler and less engrossing game.

>>6472595
I hate to say this but AVGN is just plain bad, and his incompetence colored his perception of a good game.

>>6475581
>there are optional rooms in every dungeon
What, other than the ones with skulltulas or rupees you get when you go back with the item of the dungeon? Cause if you mean anything other than those, I really doubt the difference is that enormous when counting them all.

>the dungeons simply don't measured up
I cannot get behind this at all. If you are familiar with the Shadow and Spirit temples you must understand why I think, save for the Water temple, every Ocarina temple is inferior, and

>potential dungeon routes
...this. OoT keys are locked through other keys. This is a constant in the game. You mean, tiny variations taking into account wether you have the longshot/bow or not, right? I admit I have not experimented a lot with this but I highly doubt it accounts for that much more to overcome the extremely linear structure, something that Majora more than compensates for with puzzles that affect the whole dungeon, and that mind you, are actual puzzles. Figuring what way to turn the water, how to aproach the Stone pillar in Snowhead... actual headscratchers. Shit I'd argue the linear movement-based puzzles and gauntlets, having into account you can roll, swim like a dolphin, and hover with the deku flowers. The equivalent of those in Ocarina is... those torture rooms in the Shadow temple, the walls of fire in the Fire temple...? I find it so baffling you don't think all that shit is not plain superior gameplay.

You are overselling Ocarina and underselling Majora quite a bit, as if Majora doesn't have actual sidequests like the Skulltulla houses and a higher concentration of grottos and fairy fountains... For fuck's sake, the only peahat in that game can be found through exploring one of these. It's not like those pitiful variations in dungeons and Ocarina's grottos are any less "largely optional" than anything in Majora, but ultimately they ammount to way less. Majora is Ocarina but focused the fuck down, and that is a very good thing imo.

>>6475624
You haven't even played enough of Ocarina of Time to realize you can do the dungeons in almost any order, glitchlessly, and you think your opinion is worth listening to? Lol.

>>6475624
>Gimmicks = good dungeons
>b-but don't worry about the fact the game is linear as shit, I'm sure OoT is just as linear if I had played it!
Majorafags everyone.

>>6475725
I know that is a thing that can happen, I like doing water as soon as I can, but that doesn't account for the better bosses, better dungeon design, better items, better overworld and better everything Majora has. It's a comical comparison. Not being able to grapple into a grapple point is not that compelling but here you are selling it like it's the ultimate feature in a game lmao

>>6475624
You seem to be conflating quality of dungeon design with linearity. Majora's dungeons are heavier on theme and gimmicktry, but the actual designs of the dungeons themselves allows no room for non-linear progression, and the order in which you you play through the dungeons is fixed. I don't care about the awe or first impression of a dungeon, Majora has always been about spectacle. It fails when I want to replay the game because I've been there, done that, I've figured out those puzzles, and the only thing left is a vapid experience with no variety because I'm shoehorned into the same dungeon progression every time I play. If you think that OoT's non-linearity comes down to where you can use the bow or hookshot then you don't know about the game. Have you ever done the ice dungeon before forest so you could use the iron boots in the forest temple's underwater causeway? Have you ever done the fire temple after the spirit temple? Have you ever completed the water temple without din's fire by leaving to get the fire arrows early with Pierre? Have you ever played Jabu Jabu before Dodongo's by getting the bombchus before bombs? There are literally thousands of potential variations and playing the game in different ways can lead to new discoveries. You can't play Majora in this way because the game is linear outside of largely meaningless sidequests. If you find joy in playing the same game over and over and you get on by drooling over the gimmicks of each dungeon then Majora is the game for you. Personally, I like variety, replayability and quality design in my games.

>>6475734
Better is completely subjective. Forest Temple is IMO the best dungeon in the series and fire, water and shadow are high up there. Just because Majora has grander spectacle doesn't make the quality of the obstacles and encounters better, if anything it dilutes the gameplay. OoT had a ton of badass enemies and bosses on top of being the vastly more complex and deep game. I urge you to actually play the game thoroughly before talking about this issue because if you "know it's a thing that can happen" then you haven't spent much time with a game that many fans have been raping dry for 22 years.

why is this still an argument? OoT fans are Chads that like exploration and high fantasy, Majoraniggers are 2deep4u weebs that like the nanny clock and african-themed aesthetic. this has been known and will never change.

>>6475729
On the flipside, what does it matter what order do you do dungeons on if they are all braindead linear in comparison to 2D Zelda? It's all pushing blocks, jumping over things and finding switches. If AlttP cursed Zelda with linear dungeon progression (which is already debatable) Ocarina cursed it with linear dungeons, which imo is way worse.

>>6475751
That is all so underwhelming. To answer your question, I at least did discover fire arrows before Din's fire as a kid. And still, I mean yes, all that stuff you're saying is basically using or not using things depending if you have them or not, and no, I don't think any of them compensate for Majora's better dungeons. This is just neat bits of optional progression and in some cases, sequence breaking. I really do not see what's the fuss.

>>6475754
>Forest Temple is IMO the best dungeon in the series and fire, water and shadow are high up there
Jesus fucking christ on what grounds... Not only 3D Zelda but the series? Specially Shadow? Good god. You must be infatuated with the game to like pic related. It's a fucking linear beeline to Bongo Bongo. Also correct me if Im wrong, but doesn't the Shadow temple activate after the water temple?

>it dilutes the gameplay
Are we boiling down actual dungeon design and actual puzzles to spectacle now? If "better is completely subjective" at what point does a dungeon with a central theme become spectacle, and at what point does all the pointless fluff the Shadow and Spirit temples have "spectacle"?

>>6475734
>better dungeon design, better items, better overworld and better everything Majora has
anon..I...

>>6475593
Maybe your rose tinted glasses colored your perception of a bad game.

>>6475734
>better overworld
It's a clusterfuck of ideas and themes sewn together.

>>6475871
I mean, better than the literal field of nothing OoT has.

>>6475875
OOT at least made some sense and wasn't a sore to look at with noise.

>>6475885
You don't even have to look, Goron Link rolls too fast for you to see anything.

>>6475875
>field of nothing
>a field that you never even need to visit after becoming an adult for the first time and still has more secrets than Turdmina
This criticism will never not be retarded. Hyrule Field is a hub just like the castle in SM64. You might as well call SM64 a shit game because the castle courtyard didn't have enemies in it.

>>6475762
>Majoraniggers are 2deep4u weebs that like the nanny clock and african-themed aesthetic
Kek.

>>6475780
I repeat:
>hasn't even played enough OoT to realize you can do dungeons out of order
>worthwhile opinion
Go play the games and get back to us, champ.

>>6475898
i don't mind hyrule field but at least there is interesting movement you can do inside peach's castle -- hyrule field isn't really compelling in terms of gameplay at all, it's really just atmosphere

>>6475898
Termina Field still is a compact overworld with enemies unique to it and some characters, probably a higher concentration of secrets (vs sheer ammount) and it doesn't need to hide its shortcomings by giving you warp songs to avoid it. I do not see why it is so offensive to think Termina field is better. It absolutely is.

>>6475904
Anon. Literacy.

And anyways, they were casual playthroughs, but I have played Ocarina 4 times (1 in N64, another in GC and twice emulated) and none of what you're saying is making me want to stop the shorter, better, older games I'm playing and go play a dozen hour, slow-paced 3D adventure game. But to be fair, I don't feel like replaying Majora or any 3D Zelda either.

>>6475909
>gold skulltullas
>hidden holes
>enemies
>running man
>big poes
>Lon Lon Ranch in the middle
It's not much but, as the other anon said, it's a hub world and while it's a bit tiresome in the child Link portion, it contextualizes Hyrule and its different areas much better than Termina Field.

>>6475909
epona was transcendental when N64 was current gen

>>6475931
>enemies
What enemies? At least kid Link had Stalkids and Peahats, but you'd think a Hyrule ruined by Ganondorf would have its field crawling with more than just Poes.

>>6475962
Why would that even make sense? Ganon conquered Hyrule and subdued its citizens, he was even using Lon Lon for breeding horses. Why would he station troops out in some remote farmland? He put them in places that actually needed guarding just as an empire would do in real life.

Aside from the lore aspect, I don't think having a bunch of random trash enemies wandering the field would make the game better -- you get a taste of that during the child sequence and its fun but wears thin quickly. Later Zelda games took this approach, e.g. Twilight Princess, and it resulted in a more repetitive experience where the encounters didn't feel as unique or special. Every encounter in OoT is unique, every fight has some kind of significance and offers a new obstacle. If you just filled Hyrule Field with Stalfos and Redeads and Lizalfos, they wouldn't feel nearly as interesting to fight within dungeons. Hyrule Field serves as a place that you can explore for a bit, relax and watch the sun rise, stock up on items and easily access other areas. It doesn't need to be anything more than that.

>>6475992
I get it, technical limitations, but I still think there should have been something more than Poes, or enemies altogether. Unique enemies, kind of like stalchilds but to be a nuisance in the horse, and of course, have them spawn in more open areas, rather than when you slow down. Couple landmarks with appropriate enemies scattered about, like Majora did, house or an actual cave would not have hurt, a roaming enemy like Majora's Bird. None of that would really detract from what you're saying, you know.

>it resulted in a more repetitive experience where the encounters didn't feel as unique or special
Uuuh I agree about the lizalfos and bokoblins scattered about, but the horse-riding bublins were a lot of fun. That game's overworld was also too empty for its own good, and say what you will, but about the one thing I liked about that game were the horseback battles in that game, and for one feel like there should have been fleshed out. The couple caves were also nice.

>>6476023
Those horseback battles are a ton of fun until you realize that all you have to do to kill them is shoot a single arrow at one of the bokoblins and the boar runs off a cliff. I'm not saying OoT didn't have it's fair share of bullshit enemies but those overworld enemies in TP were the definition of style over substance.

>>6471996
>graphics
90% of the game is recopied from OOT, including music

>>6476057
I agree, which is why I said it should have been fleshed out, there really was not anything beyond those bublins. It had a lot of potential. Again, making something new up, giving the game a Goht-like boss battle against a running monster, bringing Lynels back, anything other than having a fucking empty overworld for the third time in the series (with the incoming fourth being the absolute worse).

Honestly, save for some fun little details and moments, that game is just a slower, worse, MUCH easier Ocarina.

>>6475992
The fights in the dungeons arent fun after the first time either. If there was a good combat system more enemies would only have a positive impact on the game.

>>6476086
What makes it so bad? My only issue with Zelda 64 combat is it's too easy and some enemies are way too simple to cheese with items. But other than that there's a lot of shit you can do beyond turtling and stabbing enemies, you know. Detargetting and rolling behind Stalfos to get them in the ass never gets old, and Majora had crazy open battles like Odolwa and Wart. The combat system was there, potential only half realized, but it absolutely was there.

>>6476078
Texture work is better. Still blurry as hell but the environments do look better. OOT's visuals are horrible even for 1998.

I managed to get a perfect score in the town shooting gallery in the Gamecube release.
God, how can such a good analog stick be so badly used.

>>6472595
>Angry Videogame Nerd in this video basically outlines why Majora is not really that good of a game
James Rolf couldn't figure out how to land the plane in Top Gun for over 20 years despite the exact numbers being to the left of the screen. Forgive me if I ignore this dumb cunts opinion on what makes a good game.

>>6475862
Well I played it for the first time last year and I think he's right. There nothing so frustrating about MM, and the dude in that video is clearly really bad at the videogame. And I mean polygon journalist bad tier

>>6476163
>There nothing so frustrating about MM
I've heard horrors of the Goron racing.

You can't call it a true time limit when you get to rewind time and keep your shit, it means you have effectively unlimited time because you'll always learn to do stuff faster.

Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter was a game with a real time limit.

So what I could gather from thid thread: If people hate MM it's only because of the time limit; furthermore, it seems that most people hating it simply need to acquire proficiency.

>>6477428
The real time mechanic makes you rush through the main game, while making you waste time between events when doing side quests.
And it's not only that. As there are less dungeons and thus heart containers, you need to do even more annoying mini games to get heart pieces to have enough health for some parts.
I know it's the theme to be weird, but Termina Field feels very disconnected and random, with no subtlety between zones.

>>6477142
you should try playing it. i beat this game when i was eleven, nothing in this game is difficult.

>>6477440
>need to
>to have enough health for some parts
Grasping at straws here, or assuming the player is as incompetent as Arin Hanson. Both this and Ocarina and very easy and generous with hearts. I guarantee you, even if you avoid shooting galleries, without even the Great Bay stray fairy's defense upgrade, you SHOULD be able to easily get to the second row of hearts. In fact, you have plenty of them laying around or in chests (I think more than Ocarina are like this), and some very easily obtainable ones from mask quests like the dancing girls or the toilet hand. And besides, shooting galleries and minigames, including ones like shooting Koume, the Maze and that trerrible Dampe one only grant you 8 heart pieces if you do them all. 2 hearts out of 20 is not that worth it, when the rest are so much readily available. Kind of a moot point.

I would also argue you have plenty of time to do a dungeon in a cycle, with even more generous shortcuts (the game was made with dungeons being replayed in mind), not that bad unless you get stuck.

>>6477142
Eh, the rubber banding is pretty janky, and it can get frustrating, but it's definitely doable if you give it a few tries. I don't think it's even as bad as the Swamp shooting gallery.

>heard
Gee anon play it yourself.

>>6477440
Thanks for proving my point.

>>6471982
Snowhead and Stone Tower are both kino.
Woodfall is perfectly fine for the first dungeon in a Zelda game. Maybe it just feels less impactful because there's only 4 real dungeons.
So the only one that's arguably a weak link is Great Bay, but even then, I don't think it's a bad dungeon.

>>6475725
You cant, and that was proven in another thread. If you go in a dungeon to get its item to use in another dungeon youre not doing it out of order, youre just retarded.

>>6477491
What's so bad about Great Bay again? I think, like Ocarina's Water Temple, it is the best designed of the bunch, ice arrows and Zora Link are put to great use there, and while it can be confusing, on paper, you only need to switch the water current once. All the dungeons are fine and have great bosses, but if I had to choose my least favorite, it would be Stone Tower cause it drags a little (Elegy of Emptiness does not help) and Twinmold is just okay compared to the other bosses, but it still is a greatly designed dungeon.

>>6477495
You do can, to a certain extent. You still have to do Forest first 70% of the time, cause of the bow and arrow, and iirc, Shadow and Spirit are triggered by beating Water, so you can never start with them, but you have options to tackle them.

Just ignore what Navi says.

>>6471976
boohoo you have shit taste

I just realized I absolutely can't remember the Bay Temple, like, at all. I have a very vivid recollection of the mountain one and I can remember the swamp temple and Ikana dungeon, but great bay? No way. I can't even remember the boss fight.

>>6477826
I know what happened. You repressed Gyorg as a self-defense mechanism.

>>6477842
If I found him that bad, I would certainly remember. Then again, it's been almost 20 years since I last played the game.