/vr/ - Retro Games

>>6396576
I remember that boss but I'm not sure about any problematic context, no save spots before that boss or something?

>>6396604
I haven't seen a save spot from before the tower. I camped before the tower, went into it, beat it, beat Garr in a duel, was thrown into the mine, beat that dungeon, pushed a cart, bam, there's another boss and it has a all-party confuse attack that hits 100% (literally never saw it miss even once). I fought well and I think I almost beat it, but he got me first and now I lost about two hours of gameplay.

I'm fine with that in an action game. I like limited lives and even limited continues. But this is a JRPG. I don't want to replay whole dungeons full of random encounters, because I can't do better, there's nothing to learn, and if I do puzzles faster, I'll actually be EVEN WEAKER because I will have had less experience and be one-two levels weaker.

What the fuck is this design?

>>6396576
>Not playing the superior BoF IV
> Or even II

You got What you deserved, buddy

>>6396635
>Or even II
Yeah not that one.

>>6396635
It's jrpgs bro, if you believe they're interchangeable that means you're playing them for the "gameplay", and that would be pretty odd

>>6396576
Use Kyrie lol.

>(I made a similar thread aout BoF3 being lovable but tedious, but apparently it's already gone. Sorry for spamming. I looked and the thread is not in the catalogue.)
Not that sorry apparently.

>>6396635
I like the characters and the strange story, the visuals, the music, I even like the gameplay. But it really feels like the game was designed by a writer or something. Very interesting story beats, very good at motivating me to press on, but macro-gameplay is absolutely completely broken. Did they even think what would happen if I lost to a boss after 1+ hours of grindy puzzle gameplay without a chance to save my game?

The worst part is that all of these problems have been solved 13 years before the game's fucking release. The original fucking Dragon Quest had all the necessary safeguards to make this kind of dungeon-ending-in-a-really-tough-boss work:
1) no game overs; penalize (tax money, destroy some items, wahtever), but don't wipe progress entirely, because re-grinding is not like replying an action stage;
2) have an "escape from the dungeon" item or ability.

BoF3 saps at my HP, MP and items but doesn't have any way of leaving the dungeon quickly. If I die, I might lose 30+ minutes of grindy JRPG progress, which is horrible. Finally, it throws bosses at you unexpectedly and you can't run away from those bosses. In most cases you can't even have a chance to heal before the boss because they all atack so suddenly. And still, all of this would be alright it dying would teleport me to the town with a penalty, perhaps even a harsh one. But fuck. Just making me replay grindy dungeons (that are ridiculously annoying in the first palce) is overkill.

>>6396653
That thread is dead, so I'm pretty sure it's fine to make another one.

>>6396576
The door to the right should be a save point which is the place just before the puzzle and boss place.

>>6396714
I thought that there must be a save point hidden somewhere (the game already puled this kind of trick before) and was on the lookout. I was wary of any large empty rooms etc. But this time the boss appeared IN THE MIDDLE OF A PUZZLE. I pushed the cart, and the same cutscene that showed the solution to the puzzle also launched the fucking boss fight, without warning or interaction.

It's this kind of design that killed the genre. Even worse designers looked at this and thought, man, losing in this is not fun, let's make our game UNLOSABLE yeah that's a great idea. When in reality Dragon Quest has already solved all fo these retarded fucking problems in the first very installment.

>>6396719
Dude come on, you simply didn't find the save room. Saying it was "hidden" or a "trick" is going a little overboard

>>6396742
There was no indication which room is a dead-end with a save point and which room is the boss room. Are you implying that I was supposed to know? Or that I was supposed to know that pushing a mine cart in the midle of a rail-switch puzzle was supposed to launch a boss? Or to know beforehand that the boss is going to focus on confusing the entire party without missing, every turn?

I'm not against learning by trial and eror, but not when the cost of one trial-and-error sequence is 1+ hour of awkward jrpg dungeon gameplay, random encounters on top of block puzzles and everything.

>>6396761
Grind more.

>>6396761
You got into the room with the puzzle (which, to boot, is plainly about unblocking yet another path) and worked on it before exploring the other available areas. Is that trial and error design? The contextual clues are there: a problem to solve indicates a progress bottleneck. What do you believe the designers could possibly have done better besides literally putting a save point before a door leading to the boss fight? That's the sort of corridor-dungeon-type handholding that disrupts the storytelling by explicitly announcing danger.

Seriously, not picking a fight here. I understand you're frustrated because you've got to repeat a big chunk and you want to blame the design. But how you play a game should be informed by how the game itself works; demanding exactly the opposite comes off as pretty entitled.

>>6396576
The grand finale of a game that gives you multiple characters and expects you to use character X to progress through a dungeon without telling you beforehand or giving you an easy way to switch characters.

>>6396834
If I see a mine cart puzzle... do you really expect me to run away from that room and check other ones in search of a save point?
Putting two tedious dungeons back to back and THEN making finding a save points a 50% chance that depends on which nondescript passage the player follows is a design mistake.

> What do you believe the designers could possibly have done better
Best way: what did did in Dragon Quest back in the year fucking 1985. incidentally, previous two BoF games did the same thing too.
Mediocre way: what they did in Square games: unmissable save points.
Worst way: extremely low difficulty, like in Chrono Trigger or PS1 era FFs.
But BoF3 doesn't use any of these solutions at all and simply remains broken.

> I understand you're frustrated
Don't make it sound like I am upset because I lost to a boss and msut redo a section. This has nothign to do with that. When I lose to a boss in an action game and must replay the stage, that stage is a test of skill. But JRPG dungeons only test and tax patience and replaying those as punishment is a waste of time. It's like re-reading entire court sections in Ace Attorney because you made five mistakes. It's blatant misapplication of mechanics from action games that simply don't fit with puzzle gameplay or JRPG grind.

>>6396576
Why didn't you just use save states, anon?

>>6396576
>keeps starting this thread
anon you're going to hurt yourself doing stuff like that
>>6397424
because it's bait

>>6397062
But you are at the same time both demanding and rejecting "challenge" in jrpgs You state that a lack of difficulty like Chrono Trigger's is poor design, while at the same time you expect the setbacks of being defeated to be minimized to the point of almost not counting as setbacks at all.

The back-to-base/church/shrine mechanic in earlier RPGs was a remnant of the tabletop inspirations of the genre; like most gameplay elements in jrpgs it was a streamlining of certain traditional aspects of fantasy roleplaying: namely the part in which the game director allowed you to somehow get dragged back to town --by an often unseen third party-- if you and the other players got wiped out, and resurrected for a cost. As jrpgs grew in narrative sophistication, this element start making less sense: dungeons and scenarios were often not simple adventuring grounds you went to willingly, with a base or benevolent sponsor to fall back to if defeated.

I agree getting a Game Over in a jrpg is a waste of time: a well designed narrative-focused game requires stakes for player involvement, and the time and progress you lose if you get wiped out --that waste of time-- ARE the stakes. You have to question whether a game in which you don't really care that much if you lose is an example of good design.

>>6397436
>you are at the same time both demanding and rejecting "challenge" in jrpgs
Having to replay dull dungeons that stretch for dozens of minutes is not a challenge. It is an annoyance. Re-walking the same corridors, re-solving the same block puzzles, and re-grinding the same basic battles--these have nothing to do with challenge.
DQ and its numerous failed clones demonstrate conclusively, that if you are a classic JRPG (and BoF3 is without question one of those), you can only have challenge in the form of barred progress--but never in the form of substantial regress. Because, unlike replaying a stage in Castlevania, regriding a dungeon in a JRPG does not allow for the sense of improvement and progress of skill. It's just busywork that you've already just performed.

>>6397431
It's a different thread with a different topic.

>>6397457
i already told you in the last thread that you'd be fine if you saved more, healed after fights and managed your inventory. The fact you can't pull this off and are still complaining shows that you have rare brain cancer.

>>6396635
Fortunately he's not his death bed so he can play all of them.

>>6397469
based eslposter

>>6397463
A survived a dungeon, a boss and another dungeon in a row. Then I followed one of two nondescript passages and got ambushed by a boss in the middle of a puzzle. Meanwhile, the save point was in another nondescript passage. In other words, your advice is actually pretty much impossible to follow.

>>6397485
Why did you die on the boss if you were healed up and ready to go?

>>6397491
Because the boss used an attack that confused all party members with 100% accuracy, so I most of the battle I didn't even control my party. And there was no way for me to anticipate that and prepare for this. He used this attack 4 out of 5 turns, even if everyone was already confused. I think I almost finished him, but he lucked out, went first and managed to kill Ruy and confuse Garr, then keep Garr confused while bringing his health down gradually, and then when Garr recovered for a second and I used a healing item, the boss went first and finished him.

>>6397523
He's an easy boss, you know. Maybe this game isn't for you?

>>6397529
I almost beat him and would have beaten him on second try without any problems. The real problem is that I had to play two dungeons in a row, with one other boss before, and the only save point during that was hidden, whereas the boss battle was a scripted ambush without any warning whatever.
>Maybe this game isn't for you?
Is it the kind of game that's for you, then? Do you enjoy this kind of game design?

>>6397538
Why don't you just play something else if you're having such a bad time? Why torture yourself playing this game and then starting a thread where you obsess about how frustrated you are? Surely you don't live your life this way.

>>6397551
Because I liked the game's aesthetics, characters, visuals, the music, and the writing. Even the basic gameplay was pretty fun. I liked the sense of adventure and not being tugged by the story too hard. I enjoy a lot of things about BoF3. Unfortunately, the person responsible for dungeons etc. may have no been a game designer at all. It feels like the game was designed by a scriptwriter: cool story beats that are incompatible with JRPG gameplay.

>>6397570
So like I said in the last thread, git gud and deal with it, or just abandon all hope and watch a Let's Play. You're your own worst enemy and you'll die friendless and alone if you continue on this path. I'm serious anon.

>>6397591
That's the point: you can't git gut at a JRPG. Do you mean I should grind more before I enter dungeons? Even purposefully looking for save points before bosses is not an option, because most bosses ambush you from a cutscene.

>>6397747
Why did it take you over an hour to reply to such a simple post? You clearly think too slowly for even a JRPG.

>>6397748
Do you have a reading comprehension deficiency or memory problems? I've been saying this in every post starting with the OP.

>>6397752
>can't beat a simple jrpg
>lashes out at the white man
a tale as old as time

>>6397753
What? You don't sound white at all.

>>6397756
>you don't sound white
we're typing, not talking. I don't sound anything.

>>6397758
Just stop pretending to be white so that we can go back to discussing the broken-ass game.

>>6397763
you're going to hurt yourself talking like that anon

>>6397768
Just accept your heritage, meager as it is. It's for your own good.

>>6397776
post a picture of your wrist, white man

Kyrie kills him outright. Or you could use healing magic. Or you could use fire. There are also items that increase status resistance.

>>6396576
This dungeon has a save point and a free inn though.

>>6397959
We've all been mocking OP's stupidity, don't worry.

>>6397954
I don't need help beating the bosses. They're very easy. The game isn't hard at all. I'm talking about how a single failure can set you back substantially, which is alright in skill-based games but completely inapplicable in JRPGs with repetitive simple battles.

>>6397959
Whether you find the save point or the boss first is random. It does not depend on player skill.
Much better designed JRPGs either allow to escape boss battles or penalize for dying without wiping progress. Even the two previous BoF games knew how to do this correctly.

>>6399791
>I don't need help beating the bosses.
Clearly you do since you died too one and had too make a thread. I didn't die too that boss.

>>6399819
The problem is not that you can sometimes die to a boss but that if you ever die to one, you might have to completely redo whole dungeons' worth of random ancounters and simple puzzles. This is like re-reading cases in Ace Attorney if you make five mistakes in a trial. This seems superficially similar to replaying stages in action games, but such a gameplay loop is completely inapplicable in non-skill-based games like BoF3.

This simple problem was solved long ago in everything from DQ to BoF's own two predecessors.

>>6399819
>Whaaaat you don't 1cc JRPGs on first try? What are you, some kind of casual? Kekekekekeke

>>6399828
No this is a fault on your playstyle. If you don't care enough about saving then you shouldn't bitch.

>>6399831
In a situation where save points are missable and bosses ambush via cutscenes without warning, what would properly "caring about saving" look like, in your opinion?

>>6399834
>what would properly "caring about saving" look like, in your opinion?
You sound like the type to need a guide and save states.

>>6399837
Did you dodge the question because you don't know the answer or because you didn't understand it?

>>6399843
I just gave you the answer so that you'll never die and lose progress again. I both solved your problem and this thread, don't replay to me.

>>6399847
You didn't even solve your own glaring problem, let alone mine.
>don't replay
You're not my dad. I will replay if I want to, although I might have to take a break from the game for a while.
>to me
Don't toast yourself. Let others do it if they would. And if they never, ever do, just suck up down, man. Understood?

>>6396645
>nooooo the Gradius games are all totally unique but jrpgs are the same