/vr/ - Retro Games

retro or non retro, CvS2 is still king, hipsters who dont play fighting games and will say faggy shit like Garou or SF3

>>6180004
>CvS2 is still king
On a scale up to S tier, it's an A tier game---or up to A tier, it's a B tier game. Fantastic and a sort of pinnacle of the genre, but not the very best of the best. I would say better than all the SNK fighters without weapons.
>Garou
Overrated.
>SF3
Any version not 3rd Strike, indeed, is mistaken.
But 3rd Strike is one of the best fighting games ever released.

>>6179998
Are you just shamelessly fanboying? Or is it legit?

>>6179952
GGX

>>6179952
For me, it's Samsho 2.

>>6180029
What's your take on the best GGXX version?
I'm thinking it's #Reload, but alot of people seem to prefer the latest.

>>6179998
Funny, we had a guy on /fgsg/ go on a fighting vipers posting spree.

>>6180042
Not that anon but I dont see whats wrong with ACPR

>>6180047
>I dont see whats wrong with ACPR
some say feature bloat, wonky balance, too many character changes
something that personally offends me is how uglier the UI got. and somehow the game looks more pixelated / messy graphically than previous entries

>>6180052
>and somehow the game looks more pixelated / messy graphically than previous entries
that's purely due to scaling.
since the game still runs at 640x480 but upscaled to 720p. on top of that the game comes with an "antialias" filter applied by default, but that's just an implementation of scale2x or something, thankfully you can turn it off.

>>6179952

>>6179952
I'm a lifelong Dead Or Alive fan.
I think Dead Or Alive 2 is handily one of if not the best pre-2000s 3D fighting games, but I know that the series's reputation is not what it should be amongst non-fans.
I've been familiarizing myself with the arguments against it posted to SRK here in 2007: https://forums.shoryuken.com/t/why-the-hate-for-dead-or-alive/21214/84
And I gotta say, none of them are convincing.

One of the main issues I see harped about constantly is the counter system and guaranteed damage. Many seem to consider a universal counter anathema to proper balance, considering it the domain of character-specifics, but most also see in it the death of true combos by making it always unsafe for players to extend themselves.
What they don't see is that this makes DOA less of a singleplayer game than other 3D and indeed fighting games in general, by always allowing the opponent some measure of control in every encounter---this is highly comparable to the inclusion of directional influence (DI) in Super Smash Bros. (SSB). Indeed you are put at risk when going on the offensive, but there are plenty of ways to guarantee *your own* damage even when it's not free while playing around the opponent's counter.
Another beautiful thing about the series is how little it relies on juggles, and this is directly related to how counters work, where the opponent effectively resets themselves for you and gives you the chance to mess 'em up even further.

>>6180052
>feature bloat
Its one of the most feature-packed fighting games, I dont know how its a bad thing.
>wonky balance
All of GGXX versions have wonky balance its not like its just this one.
>character changes
This is actually the complaint I hear the most IRL. I understand.

>>6180172
>Its one of the most feature-packed fighting games, I dont know how its a bad thing
I've heard people say that #R had an elegant "simplicity" to it that still maintained a respectable amount of depth, while GGXX^+R had too many things to keep track of, especially for newcomers and casuals to keep up with, so that exploiting the systems effectively can only be done after hundreds of hours of play, making too wide a gap in skill levels.
>All of GGXX versions have wonky balance
Well in #Reload it was just the two unlockable "boss" characters, who'd obviously be busted and could simply be gentleman'd away.

>>6179952
Soul Calibur 2

>>6180165
The argument for counters is solid, and it doesn't put you out of control since you still have to play mind games; for ex. if a player always counters high, bait him with lows, etc.
Making counters so easy means that the game is less about memorizing 85 hit air combos and more about executing the right move at the right time. Basically, it makes the game more back-and-forth, even when there's a huge skill disparity, and it won't allow one player to completely dominate the other. This might mean that the skill ceiling is rather low, but that just makes the game more enjoyable for all players.

I gotta disagree about juggles though, the game always had juggles, even in the first game for Saturn it was important to keep punishing an enemy with air hits whenever you did an uppercut on them. The later games made this more and more stupid where you can punch around the enemy like a ragdoll for 16 hits. It's getting almost as bad as Tekken. But even Virtua Fighter got crazy with juggles in its sequels.

>>6180254
>The argument for counters is solid, and it doesn't put you out of control since you still have to play mind games; for ex. if a player always counters high, bait him with lows, etc.
>Making counters so easy means that the game is less about memorizing 85 hit air combos and more about executing the right move at the right time. Basically, it makes the game more back-and-forth, even when there's a huge skill disparity, and it won't allow one player to completely dominate the other. This might mean that the skill ceiling is rather low, but that just makes the game more enjoyable for all players.
word
>the game always had juggles
I didn't say it didn't---they're there, but short, and by no means necessary like in Tekken and Virtua Fighter

It's not Street Fighter Alpha 3

bruce lee and international karate plus

>>6179952
the virgin 1-on-1 fighters
vs
the chad belt-scrolling fighters

>>6180418
beat 'em ups aren't fighting games, and even then if you adapted a fighting game into a scroller it'd still be superior

>>6180025
Megamix is great.

>>6180165
I know 2 had a lot of improvements but 1 on the Saturn is probably still my favorite, and I really wish that the Xbox version had the arcade port.

Fatal Fury Special

>>6180445
>I really wish that the Xbox version had the arcade port.
what are the key differences?
>1 on the Saturn is probably still my favorite
in retrospect it's really not as primitive as people would believe it to be

>>6180427
Before vs fighting games beat em ups were called fighters actually.

>A year before [it] came out Itagaki was interviewed talking about how he wants to make the most hardcore game ever. Then as it gets closer to release you can see him talking about how “All Fighting games are, are macros where you just have to hit one move and you win. I don’t want that in my game” (sorta paraphrasing
based

>>6179952
My favorite is Vampire Savior, though I enjoy Samurai Shodown II and Alpha 2 as well.
>>6180032
I prefer V:S overall but I wish II was more popular on fightcade, usually it's just Brazilians with 250+ ping. Beside some inputs feeling stiff, WFTs feel awkward in II, it's fun.
>>6180380
What's wrong with A3? I've never delved deep into it, it seems pretty demanding, but it looks fun. Insane v-ism combos like that are pretty rare in actual play.

>>6180459
>what are the key differences?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVFTcrCViLs

Pretty much visual as far as I can tell, I just think it would have been nice to have as an extra. The arcade backgrounds are really nice.

>in retrospect it's really not as primitive as people would believe it to be

Considering what they did on the hardware it's actually really amazing

Educate me why so few /vr/ posters list MvC 1 as their favorite? It's my absolute favorite 2d fighter. Other than that I'm a Meleefag as far as fg's go

>>6180923
>smash

fuck off

>>6180923
I'm no expert but
>small roster
>Colossus and Devilotte make basically every other assist obsolete
>2v2 feels limiting to most people

>>6180923
it generally gets overshadowed by its sequel

>>6180942
Those are all pretty fair critiques. I just fucking love crossover combination. Same reason I love Jojo hftf for the tandem attacks, nothing feels cooler than grinding your opponent to the dust with two characters on screen going apeshit

>>6181006
MvC1 is moderately active on fightcade, the lobby usually has 30 or so people. That's small by modern means, sure, but as a vsav player that's double what we get usually. I could only wish vsav and other games had numbers like that.

>>6180459
Aside from graphics, the Saturn version actually updated some movesets and animations. I can't get into any specifics because I haven't played either in forever, but I distinctly remember going from xbox\saturn version to arcade version via emulation and wondering why I couldn't do x move with x character. Similar with going from Saturn to PS1 version (probably), and going from that to ++.

>>6181018
Yeah I'll probably get stomped on by fightcade tryhards fr I just wondered why it seemed there was less discussion about it here.

>>6181136
Anon, this is far from the truth. 75% of people playing these games are scrubs or newfags that only started playing fighting games five or so years, like maybe 10% of the people that play are actually the gods that you are worried about. Even then, being a shitty scrub is how you get good, you need to accept you will suck and get better by keep playing.

>>6180471
and vice versa.
Even in '99 magazines were calling games like Tekken 3 beat em ups.

>>6180004
All 3 of those and Marvel 2 are the correct answers. Zenith of the genre, retro or not.

>>6179952
Fighters Megamix
Fighting Vipers(Japanese version, since it includes Pepsiman)
Dead Or Alive 2

I have to toss my hat in for Garou, despite having preferred Real Bout 2 in the past, I was kidding myself for hipster cred. It goes a long way for movement and hits to just feel "right" even with glaring issues like feint links and cancels, which for all their imbalance, offer something most of the cast can capitalize in some form or another anyway. A game could be the most balanced and fleshed-out in the genre and it wouldn't count for beans if all the characters feel like steering a forklift into stacks of marshmallows. Garou has nigh perfect pacing and control, even the satisfying pop-up from counter hitting has the right amount of visual cue without overexaggerating or wresting control from the receiving player too badly. It's conceptually flawed in systems and character balance, but in execution, the pace of back-and-forth, the precision of control be it on offense or defense, it's flawless. With the right polish and additions that a sequel would have offered, it could've been the undisputed king. SNK's bankruptcy couldn't have come at a worse time.

>>6179952
3rd strike is great.

capcom vs snk 2 ps2
marvel vs capcom 2 dreamcast
rival schools ps1
soul caliber on dreamcast
super street fighter 2 turbo
virtua fighter 4 evo or 5
street fighter alpha 3 ps1 for world tour mode
i feel like i want to add darkstalkers 3.

hmm

>>6179952

>>6182627
Not retro OR a fighting game, nice

Some that are usually regarded as the essentials
KOF 98 or 2k2 Add the UM one if you want
Marvel 2
Super Turbo
Garou
Samsho 2
3rd Strike
CVS 2
Vampire Savior

I'd add GG but I haven't played much of them yet
3D
Virtua Fighter 2
Tekken 3
Soul Calibur
DOA 2 I like the Xbox port alot
Fighting Vipers
Fighters Megamix
Would anyone add Power Stone or Rival School?

>>6182664
I don't consider smash a real fighting game either, but if it's not a fighting game, what is it?

>>6183397
>DOA 2 I like the Xbox port alot
The xbox version is a full remake rather than a port. Still probably the best game in the series though

>>6183706
A toy box that when you turn 80% of it off you can run a fighting game tournament with what's left.

KOF 97, 98 and 2002
Samurai Shodown 2, 4 and 5
Last Blade 1 and 2
Real Bout Fatal Fury Special
Third Strike
Red Earth
Heritage for the Future
Tekken 3

>>6182664
>series wins fighting game of the year
>not a fighting game
Lmfao

>>6184000
>>6183397
REAL answers over here.
>>6183836
Great counter argument...

>>6179952
My most favorite of the genre includes:

Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo
Capcom Vs. SNK 2
Marvel Vs. Capcom 2
Street Fighter Alpha 2
X-Men Vs. Street Fighter
SNK Vs. Capcom: Match of the Millennium
Garou: Mark of the Wolves
Street Fighter 3: Third Strike
Vampire Savior
King of Fighters 98UM
King of Fighters 2002UM
Last Blade 2
Samurai Shodown 2
Guilty Gear XX Accent Core +R
Gundam W: Endless Duel

Dead or Alive 2 Ultimate
Bloody Roar 2
Soul Calibur
Last Bronx
Rival Schools
Fighters MEGAMiX

I have spent hundreds of hours on those games, but there are a lot of so-so fighting games I had great times playing with my friends. I think those are the best ones, which you have a great group of people around to play with. If you include sports games like boxing or pro-wrestling games there's like so many great fighting games I like.

>>6179952
matrimelee.

>>6180023
Turd strike is hot garbage that people who don’t actually play fighting games cling to for some reason

>>6179998
>>6180435
>>6182536
>>6183397
>>6185273

Fighter's Megamix is awesome

>>6179952
It all began in '94...

Super Turbo, Third Strike, Alpha 2, Alpha 3
Vampire Savior
Jojo Heritage for the future
Marvel vs Capcom 1 and 2
Armored Warriors
CvS2
KOF 98
Garou: Mark of the Wolves
Real Bout Special
I have no experience with 3d fightans. There some ones I like but there no where near the top, like the double dragon and golden axe fighter.

>>6185490
Yeah and people who don't play fighting games are quick to shit on third strike and usually say dumb shit in an attempt to be contrarian. Unless of course, you have some valid argument about why 3s is hot garbage?

>>6180380
a3 > sf3 for my money

But I've always been more of an snk man myself

>>6180380
It is, SFA3 is one of the best FGs of all time. You posting TAS visms doesn't change that.

>>6179952
My Personal favorites

CvS2
Hyper Fighting
Marvel Super Heroes Vs Street Fighter
Fatal Fury 3
Street Fighter Alpha 2 Gold
KoF 98
Guilty Gear XX
Waku Waku 7
Flying Dragon (N64)
Marvel Vs Capcom

All good choices in this thread, I'll just add some honorable mentions that I think are worth trying out:

>Breakers Revenge
>Karnov's Revenge (Fighter History Dynamite)
>Martial Masters
>Groove on Fight
>Rage of the Dragons
>UMK3
>Asuka 120%
>Slap Happy Rhythm Busters
>YuYu Hakusho Sunset Fighters
>Weaponlord
>TMNT: Tournament Fighters
>PowerQuest
>One Must Fall 2097

>there are actually going to be semi important mvc2 tournaments in the next couple months
i wonder if anybody learned anything new in the last 10 years

>>6185806
You don't need TAS to play Cody

>>6185806
Street Fighter Alpha 3 is a broken game whose competitive meta is built around infinites only certain characters are capable of.
If you removed the offending groove or reworked it to make it less exploitable, then maybe it would deserve a spot in the pantheon---but as it stands, it's a niche cult classic for sadists that could not possibly represent the genre's best of the best.

SFA3- Ryu vs Cody, Zangief vs Rolento, Karin vs Cody (3/5)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRAmpKwhEak
>Choppa009
>7 years ago
>@ 1:07 what a joke, V-Ism should never have been allowed for any competitive play/tornaments. love Alpha 3 but V-sim is broken, X or Aism is so much more balanced and fun.

>>6186143
Why would they have been playing it when there's in their mind only 4 viable characters in it, and UMVC3 and Tatsunoko vs Capcom and Dragon Ball Fighterz all exist since then?

>>6186115
How are any of these worth checking out?

>>6180923
Melee is the best. Non-/vr/ but the best

Bloody Roar 2

>>6180712
>What's wrong with A3?
V-Ism is broken. The quality of the presentation is behind the times compared to 3rd Strike, CVS2, and MVC2. The combat also is just not on the same level either.
It's a second-rate game, even though that's still respectable---the fact is, you have more games to play, and if you like long combos or even infinites, you have Marvel vs Capcom. If you prefer a grounded game, you have CVS2 and 3rd Strike. For all intents and purposes, Street Fighter Alpha 3 is a beta, a prototype, for greatness to come, and should be regarded as so unless you are particular in love with its nostalgic roster.
>Insane v-ism combos like that are pretty rare in actual play
It doesn't matter when you have lame v-ism "combos" that win you the game far more reliably.
>>6185691
See the above. It's not better than 3rd Strike unless you personally prefer the aesthetics, the roster, or V-Ism tomfoolery.

>>6187416
Project M surpassed Melee.
And Project M is bested by Brawl Minus.
Melee is "the best" if you're specifically, for whatever reason, only talking about official games, which is a silly restrictive outlook on gaming.

>>6182616
If you are going to advocate for a version of CvS2, Dreamcast is king.

>>6187418
You're just saying that cuz it's a childhood game, right?

>>6187426
You can play it well on Xbox. As for the rest of the late-90s Capcanon.

>>6185490
It's always funny when casuals like you try to flip the script.

>>6184000
>>6185273
>>6185689
>>6185912
>>6183397
>>6182607
>>6180449
I really don't get the SNK love here on /vr/.

>>6180418
Poison never was a transsexual.

>3s
>hftf
>kof98/snk in general
>mvc1
>vsav
i appreciate them for making characters that have somewhat of a learning curve/aren't straightforward to use
smaller casts usually mean more focus in their design/playstyle too
sorry for being a capcom baby

>>6180923
>Educate me why so few /vr/ posters list MvC 1 as their favorite?
Because they follow the bandwagon and that's camped at MVC2 even though it has worse balance and easier infinites.

All of MVC2's predecessors are extraordinarily impressive (and arguably better fighting games than many others that get more attention than they do simply in virtue of not being prototypes) and it's remarkably puzzling why they don't get more attention until you realize it's a simple matter of convencience---it's easier to just say MVC2 is the best without putting too much more thought into the matter.

Who cares anyway when the roster is smaller, the production is more primitive, the mechanics are less refined, and most importantly for such acolytes the SCENE is *smaller*.

>It's my absolute favorite 2d fighter
*traditional 2D fighter
with this taste, you'd surely prefer anime 2D fighters if you knew the right ones
>Melee
you should give Project M a try if you haven't; it's Melee improved

>>6187454
>capcom baby
There's nothing to apologize for or be so sickly humble about---they make the superior 2D fighting games.
>smaller casts usually mean more focus in their design/playstyle too
you should give Darkstalkers 1 and 2 a review in that case; you might find them better than Darkstalkers 3 for this reason and more

>>6179952
I earnestly believe Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike is a balanced game with only 1 or 2 characters of questionable superiority, and the reason this fact isn't recognized more is because most people suck at the game and don't know how to play the characters nor the matchups.

You can only really appreciate 3S to the fullest when you understand how characters are designed mechanically/technically and functionally.

cvs2 by virtue of having grooves and an in-game palette editor
also objectively the best announcer

>>6187460
i prefer all the shit before mvc2, but it was still really cool of capcom to just make a slapped together mess using all their previous vs assets
the additions people like in mvc2 (speed, 3v3, new characters) are definitely nice but i'd argue they're superficial

>>6187491
>cvs2 by virtue of having grooves
I think this makes it better than most SNK fighting games, since you can play SNK but with a more fleshed out neutral and combo game.
>in-game palette editor
definitely an appreciated feature
>also objectively the best announcer
someone should try making a tierlist
>it was still really cool of capcom to just make a slapped together mess using all their previous vs assets
The issue with MVC2 is that they didn't devote enough time to fleshing out character movesets and abilities. The mechanical foundation is solid enough but too many characters were neglected severely to the point where lesser mobility and a lack of certain super moves rendered them incredibly outclassed.
>the additions people like in mvc2 i'd argue they're superficial
I'd like to hear it---for posterity.

>>6187449
yes she was, get over it already.

>>6187483
I earnestly believe Marvel Vs Capcom 2 is a balanced game with only 1 or 2 characters of questionable superiority, and the reason this fact isn't recognized more is because most people suck at the game and don't know how to play the characters nor the matchups.

You can only really appreciate MvsC2 to the fullest when you understand how characters are designed mechanically/technically and functionally.

>>6187541
She was female in Japanese, the original language.
Sounds like you need to deal. Bet you call "Boxer" Balrog too.

>>6179952
subjectively my favorites are Super Street Fighter 2, Marvel vs Capcom 2, and KOF 98UM

>>6187546
I'd love to be educated on the matter if you have the means to do so. The fact tourneyfags only pick 4 characters, and what those particular characters are capable of, is overwhelming evidence however to the contrary. This is in contrast to 3rd Strike which even despite people thinking Chun, Yun, and Ken are the best, get a lot more diversity into character entrants and victors.

No kidding, in fact, I'd like to see footage of alleged MVC2 low tiers beating the cookie cutter teams at high level. I have no idea where it's at and don't want to scour for it.

>>6187546
nice parody btw, even if you can't fulfill the request

>>6187558
>KOF 98UM
What makes it more enjoyable for you than the other acclaimed KOFs?

>>6187556
she was refered as a shemale in concept art of the game

>>6187556
google "poison newhalf" and stop being retarded.
I bet you call megaman "rockman".

>>6187584
>>6187602
the creator said they thought of poison as a female and only changed it in the US release because of a difference of culture

>>6187571
Not him but 98 is usually cited as most people's favorite, that or 02 usually. 98 was made as a sort of "celebration" game, it wasn't meant to move the plot onward and instead just be a celebration of the series, so they had all the characters in it. Beside the roster it is generally felt that it has a good balance between being easy to pick up and play but still having a skill ceiling.

No one plays UM though. People never touch the UM versions of KoF games. Why that guy specified 98UM is weird.

Sometimes I wish they just made a Street Fighters 3 BEST OF version, where they crammed all the characters in.

>>6187605
>98 is usually cited as most people's favorite, that or 02 usually
We know that.
>all the characters in it
okay
>it has a good balance between being easy to pick up and play but still having a skill ceiling
okay

if this is how most people feel then this provides insight for me into why SNK games are popular

>>6187610
3rd Strike's cast is literally perfect
ONLY iffy inclusion is Twelve; I personally feel the design isn't strongly enough connected to Necro to call it equally amazing as everyone else's

but adding more characters would ruin the harmony

>>6187616
It's missing some of the classic SF2 characters who were in the first two iterations.

>>6187561
Anon, that guy is clearly shitposting about the idiot saying 3S is perfectly balanced.

Mid tier upsets in MvC2 do happen. Not at the top level of play but there's some cases of it. Probably the most famous example is the famous Justin Wong vs Dark Prince money match. Wong selected three random characters, them being Ken (low tier), Ruby Heart (mid tier), and Jill (low tier) and did a money match against a SMS team. He ended up winning with his low tier team purely based on skill. Here's some cool low tier matches and players.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d-bhV_cJeo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2dpjy2y95w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCMBbY6Ke8A

This channel specializes in low tier gameplay if you enjoy it a lot.
https://www.youtube.com/user/BrettH123

>>6187619
>It's missing some of the classic SF2 characters who were in the first two iterations
So? Many of them got functional replacements: Dhalsim, Blanka, Guile, E. Honda, Deejay, Mike Bison, and so on.
They'd be redundant. It's bad enough Ryu and Ken are in.

>>6187635
>functions
you cant make this shit up
in any case, 3s designs cant touch the original SF2 cast and is lne of the reasons that game never reached the same popularity
and i like 3s

>>6187647
>3s designs cant touch the original SF2 cast
I personally find the designs in 3rd Strike equally interesting and sometimes more interesting, both aesthetically and mechanically.
>is lne of the reasons that game never reached the same popularity
People also say 3rd Strike's (and MVC2's as well) music sucks and many claim to even prefer 2nd Impact's; but you can't really cure shit taste, so what's one to do about it.
3rd Strike has too many freaks for some people and too many "bland" designs for others. People like to claim it's "not Street Fighter" because it's not SF2's cast.

>>6187624
>3S is perfectly balanced
not perfectly but very well balanced, more than it gets credit for

>>6187624
ok no, that dark prince guy sucks

he doesn't know how to play and is banking on that cheap team

>>6187678
I agree with you myself, 3S' balance is good for a game over 20 years old, but I hate both sides. Idiots who argue it as perfectly fine are just as annoying as the ones that say it's broken beyond fuck.
>>6187680
It's not about him being genuinely good, it's about how, even using trash like Jill and Ken, Wong was able to beat a team of god characters with skill.

>>6187668
SI and TS both have their share of great music.

With some characters I feel they got fucked pretty hard in terms of receiving a new theme. Elena in particular is a case where I feel the SI theme is greatly superior to her TS theme.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgJvsvo9HL4
\https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWSFAditGyQ

Gill's SI theme is also much better then his TS theme.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9iY-eDNAs8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFR0DDBkR64

Still, TS has some amazing tracks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fixD991258
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQAM7jew-jE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5BB1v50r8k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IgY23NBAlQ

>>6179952
I like the Capcom Jojo. Too bad we'll never get a sequel.

>>6180158
Hello? Based department?

>>6180165
I appreciate your webm and your passion for this. If for nothing other than if you didn't exist then life would be so boring.

>>6187701
HFTF technically was a sequel. It's the second version of their original Jojo game.

>>6187624
That fucking Anakaris tho HAHAHAHAHAAAAAA

>>6187707
It's an update.

>>6187460
>follow the band wagon
im an mvc1 regular for 14 years you sound like a faggot

>>6187717
says the poster getting offended on behalf of others

>>6179952
I'll try to list some reasons why Street Fighter III: Third Strike is the best SF game bar none.

1st, it's the fastest next to Alpha games. A brisk pace that's just slow enough to facilitate methodical play, but not so slow it feels like the engine is outdated or gimped in order to make it easier for casuals to play.
The parry mechanic as the prime universal mechanic is executionally demanding, gatekeeping its rewards behind investment into the game & a high skill level. It provides a way for no character to ever be truly dominated by another so long as the player is good enough. It almost automatically balances the cast just in favor of existing.
It also allows aggressive play to flourish, for despite the parry being available to players currently on guard, it's also usable for players on the offense exerting pressure---this means they are never forced to halt their momentum by having to go into block, & can instead parry an attempted counterattack and the opportune moment and continue running their train. Parry makes Street Fighter III the most offensive-friendly in the series. SFIV's unblockable is slower than an overhead.
The combo system is also highly impressive. You cannot pull off cheap infinites like in SFA3, but u can execute respectably long combos that nevertheless are not completely devastating or easy to pull off thanks to its physics---Oro and Necro being examples.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U-PEDGtG7Y

The presentation is top notch quality. No more early 90s sound quality & spritework. Soundtrack is distinct, thematic, yet diverse. Nearly perfect voice acting with snappy well written lines. Very aesthetically pleasing and a hallmark of games as art.
Nearly all characters are meaningfully distinct & strong in their own right. There's a lot you can do with each one of them & they're all viable IF you master the concept of your chosen character.

There really isn't a single Street Fighter game before or since that stands on its level.

Can anyone list reasons why Darkstalkers 3 is better than Darkstalkers 2 or 1?

>>6187816
Vsav player here, I'll try to go into it a bit but my info on Hunter and especially Vampire is a bit more limited.

Balance plays a big role. Vampire is pretty imbalanced, Sasquatch and Bishamon rule over it while only Demitri and Morrigan can even put up a fight. Hunter suffers from similar problems, though now Pyron and Aulbath join Sas and Bishamon in dominating over everyone. Savior's tiers are pretty rigid, but more forgiving. Using a low tier like Jedah or Lilith is an uphill battle, but still provides a chance even at higher levels of play.

Beyond this though I would just say Savior offers the most distinct experience in terms of mechanics and design. The removal of the round system, featured in Vampire and Hunter, makes it feel sort of distinct, add in things like pushblock, es and ex moves, magic series, and use of both knockdown and damage strings gives Savior a distinct personality, feeling like neither the traditional style of Street Fighter nor the insanity of the Marvel games, but rather a hybrid of the two styles.

If you are interested in picking up Savior I highly suggest looking through the Mizuumi wiki for game. It's an excellent resource for learning about mechanics and characters.
http://wiki.mizuumi.net/w/Vampire_Savior

>>6179952
>In your opinion, what is the main element that makes a fighting game good?

>Roster
Large enough cast with diverse and meaningfully distinct character roster playstyle-wise, with each character having a strong, versatile moveset / toolkit accomodating of impressive varieties of playstyles and skill levels
>Mechanics
Solid fundamental system, mechanics, and physics that lay out a fundamentally balanced and level playing field that doesn't inherently favor one kind of character over another, as well as providing high dynamism and volatility to matches that can be exploited in numerous ways by each character---keeps the game fast-paced and mentally & executionally intensive without having needlessly complex and obtuse controls
>Aesthetics
Lots of soul invested into the presentation---characters, stages, graphics, sound, and music are full of personality and practically a work of art in motion enjoyable minute by minute alongside the gameplay
>Combat
Highly fine-tuned balance that favors emphasizing character strength rather than a baseline of weakness---virtually no tiers to speak of, every character viable, yet not homogenized and heavily dependent upon player skill and personality to make work, personalizing the gameplay experience to an unheard of degree to the point where playing characters becomes a vehicle for self-expression in general. Difficulty and challenge in competition is assured for all these reasons.

The bar has been raised to make all this the new bare minimum for a mindblowing fighting game. The issue is, not many now existing measure up. But some are out there if you can hack it.

>>6187687
>who argue it as perfectly fine
I don't think such people exist
vast majority of fans think it's unbalanced at least

>>6187693
>Makoto
>Ibuki
you have mediocre taste

Gill's 2nd Impact theme is the worst one. It's lacking the menace New Generation and 3rd Strike undertone. It's catchy but its competition is too stiff. Psych-Out is grandiose, intimidating, and adrenaline-pumping. It's easily the best Gill theme and one of 3rd Strike's standouts.

From these two opinions, I get the sense you prefer mellow music.

I think Beats in My Head is a solid track, but I probably also prefer 2nd Impact here for this instance. But then again, where 3rd Strike's can get obnoxiously repetitive, 2nd Impact's feels undercooked and low effort, sonorally uninspired and uninspiring.

>>6187624
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d-bhV_cJeo
their movement is so embarrassing and supers so pathetic

>>6187428
Didn't play it until recently, it's genuinely a really fun game. Not tournament level, but I'm not a tournament player so idgaf

>>6187512
my problem with its speed is almost the same as yours; only a literal handful of characters actually benefit from it
3rd character only really exists for their super good assists (not a problem unique to mvc2)
i love amingo, sonson, jill and tron bonne but too bad they're not magneto fast or take up half of the screen like sentinel

>>6187624
damn, not only is this game unbalanced, it's not even the same game without the top tiers, unless these guys just aren't particularly good players
either way, it makes all the other MVC games look better than it

>>6180380
Alpha < Alpha 3 < Alpha 2/Zero 2 Alpha

>>6182616
>>6183397
>>6185273
>>6185689
Why Super Turbo and not something like HSF2?

>>6188809
Because they love the bullshit.

I still think Soul Blade is the best one in the series

>>6187647

You don't need to see the same characters every fucking video game. That's one of the things that dragged SF4 down, by the time of AE they had entirely too many SF2 and 3 characters.

>>6188834
You know what? That's fair. But if you're gonna replace characters people like you can't toss in trash at random and expect people to like it when you tell them HUR DURR FUNCTIONS. It's the games job to sell the characters, not the players job to just blindly accept whatever.

>>6188865
>Guile and Nash vs Remy
two military guys vs a dandy
>Dhalsim vs Necro
a mystic yogi vs a random mutant
>Mike Bison vs Dudley
vicious Mike Tyson vs gentleman

they aren't trash, they just aren't more of the same of what people liked before

.

Bushido Blade. 2 was ok but 1 is my favorite fighting game. No life bars or special moves. 1 hit K.O. Wish there were more games in this style.

>>6187460
What anime fighters would you suggest anon? Also I have played a lot of PM. I like it for more characters and possibilites but when I really want to go hard Melee just does it more for me. I kind of like when games have a more centralized smaller cast of viable characters so I can get to the meat and potatoes and learn the core mechanics instead of having to grind matchup knowledge out vs tons of characters. But I do want to try Brawl - like >>6187424 said

>>6189236
>What anime fighters would you suggest anon?
I'd suggest starting with Guilty Gear XX #Reload. You can get it on Steam.

It's fast-paced, like Melee & MVC.
It's got a lot more mobility than the average traditional fighting game.
It has more creative movesets than the average fighting game, as well. One character, Chipp Zanuff, has an invisibility move, Vergil-like teleports, a paralysis attack, an Ibuki shuriken, a rekka ken that hits low & overhead iirc, a fast forward charging move that's air-useable & even has a backslash, a Wesker-like full screen super move, a mid-range command throw that he's invisible while using, and three jumps, plus a dragon punch (that's also air-useable). Maybe it's more than you need, but the fact a character like that exists says a lot about the game.
It has a good combo game without being overly long or damaging like in certain other anime fighters. You will feel effective while not overpowered, and it will be more fun to pull off long combos than it will be a chore.
It has many big brained characters like Zato/Eddie, Zappa, and Venom for you to flex your intellectual muscles if you feel the need.
Everyone plays distinctly. Nobody really feels like a clone of anyone else or necessarily pointless because another character exists, making your choice of mains meaningful.
The game is very well balanced too---the boss hidden boss characters are obviously overpowered, but they can be gentlemanned away easily. Everyone else can hold their own against their foes so long as you are good at the game.
This is a very challenging and demanding game to play. If you don't put in effort you will get blown up.
It has a respectable amount of tech that add depth to the game without laying down a ton of noob traps that make competent play impossible outside of dozens of hours of practice and study.
The cast is also pretty large---impressive considering all of the above. Again, you shouldn't feel like any are invalidated, pointless inclusions.

>>6189193
Bushido Blade is the best at what it does.
>Wish there were more games in this style.
What would you add or change?

>>6189375
That is a good question. I'm not sure what else could be added because all the changes that came with the 2nd one were unwelcomed imo. What other games are there like it?

>>6189397
>What other games are there like it?
pft, don't think there are any
the company that made it eventually made Kabuki Warriors which is not the same idea at all
Samurai Shodown isn't one-hit K.O. to the same degree
if anything, the new game Mordhau is the closest an official PvP game has come since, even though it's not a fighting game; you have the Jedi Outcast / Academy mod that makes instakills, too

but the answer to my question depends on a number of factors:
>how grounded do you want it to be?
>keep it feudal samurai, or change it up, and to what degree?
>what kind of weaponry is fine?
>what character abilities and differences would improve things?
>what extra mechanics should be in?
and so on
in my opinion, Jedi Academy mod ("Movie Battles" I guess?) showed the potential of a cuhrayzee Bushido Blade successor to be really tight---what I'm not sure about right now though is if we have the technology to do that justice, because precise weapon swings would add so much to the game they're virtually necessary now
otherwise, there's no point but to continue playing Bushido Blade, because it did everything you could possibly want in that sort of traditional 3D fighting game

>>6189427
>As grounded as possible. That was the schtick that made the game unique.
>The samurai setting lends itself well to the idea but is not necessary.
>2 applies here also I think. As long as there is a reason to use and practice with different load outs they could be anything really.
>I think these last 2 could be combined. Apart from "modernizing" with smoother movement and better graphics I wouldn't add much. Besides a proper "career" mode, a more rock-paper-scissors aspect to weapon advantages. In bushido blade the other weapons are viable but there isn't much reason to stray from the well balanced katana.

always loved King of fighters controls the few games i've played have been fun but my favs are Killer Instinct & Weapon Master for the pure edge

Does any retro game have the kind of retarded complexity games like Arcana Heart have? I figure learning to play all the most difficult ones will have good carryover to the easier ones,

>>6181373
>only started playing fighting games five or so years
>only 5 years
How does a complete beginner even start.

>>6188886
I feel like a part of the problem is that most of the SF3 new comers didn't really mesh with the established tone and style of the game. If you dropped Ken and Ryu and called it a brand new IP altogether I'd have no trouble believing it. This is part of why I feel like Garou's character received a much warmer welcome. SNK did a lot to make South Town itself feel like an actual character too. So everyone just felt like the belonged. You had kids of old favorites, the main hero's new protege and son of the villain, you had a sassy pirate gal and cute kung fu weasel girl and she had a cold scary assassin brother she was looking for. There was also a guy named Butt.

I don't really think it's fair that the SF3 cast got blasted the way they did but there's very little for anyone to grab onto.

>>6190241
I've been around fighting games since I was maybe 4 years old.

>>6190448
I'm 26 and am just barely above button mashing level. Now what? I started playing STGs like 3 years ago and got sort of okay at them but those are single player.

>>6190463
I think perhaps the most foreign of concepts to people who've never played or played very little of fighting games is inputs. They're like rhythm games which some people are familiar with, except you have no prompt thus must memorize what each command yields which actions. Not only that, but those inputs are oftentimes more complex than those of rhythm games---quarter-circles, half-circles, 360s, 720s, sometimes all in one move and in different directions, linked with forward-back-forward, charge down-up, double-tap back, alternations of punch and kick, sometimes with tight windows of error and so must be performed quickly when they're wanted, which sometimes happens in a split second.

So there's the issue of getting accustomed to the dexterity necessary to even bang out basic inputs without looking at your controller or taking a while to complete it; and then there's the issue of memorizing characters' specific movelists (on top of the game's central mechanics which will also require memorizing inputs) as well as learning when to use which moves or mechanics depending on the situations you find yourself or want to get into.

For "adults with busy lives", it helps to pick one character to stick to. The problem is that we haven't discovered yet how picking a character works---whether you learn to love and adopt the playstyle you're forced into, or whether your personality going into the games determines who will be amicable to your enjoyment. Maybe you'd hate shoto's but love grapplers, while at the same time preferring more mobile grapplers than the archetypal juggernaut. Thing is, not being good enough at fighting games to perform moves yourself makes that nearly impossible to tell at the early stage of investment. Perhaps the best method is to just observe footage online, choose who excites you most, and then proceed to tackle the aforementioned issues-steps.

Solving their problem of execution should be the foremost concern of fighting game newcomers.

>>6185689
>valid argument about why 3s is hot garbage?

nothing is safe because parry and red parry turn everything into a bait and guessing game.Jump... it’s a bait to party the anti air... or their parry into empty jump low or throw... or early buttons to bait the parry or late button parry os to bait the anti air or parry ...
Everything you do is a bait or to bait their bait.
Projectiles,zoning,anti airs,frame traps are tactics that are rendered into guesses.

>Street Fighter Alpha 3 is a broken game whose competitive meta is built around infinites


You don't watch or play A3,infinites are hard to perform and setup.They allow claw,sagat,rose and cody who are not even the best characters in the game to stand up to the top tiers.Ryu has a useful p1 infinite but is a strong character even without it

>I earnestly believe Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike is a balanced game with only 1 or 2 characters of questionable superiority
>most people suck at the game
>You can only really appreciate 3S to the fullest when you understand how characters are designed mechanically/technically and functionally.

Genei jin EVERY round
chunli that can hitconfirm sa2 from almost any situation
Makoto TODs

Get out of your safe space and play strong opponents instead of just talking about theory

Casuals are always wrong about fighting games

>>6190297
Agree. Blanka was the only "monster" character in the whole game (even counting Super Street Fighter 2). SF3 had Necro, Twelve, Q, Oro, and the weird semi god Gill as the final boss. I whish Capcom would have added more characters like Makoto, which really fits better into the SF world. And the less we talk about Yoshinori Ono's joke characters the better.

>>6190509
>Q
Just a mask like Balrog
>Oro
A wrinkly old man with his arm tied up

>>6190515
You're kind of right, but at first sight, they still look very alien and weird in comparison to the rest of the usual cast of a SF game. Vega has a mask too but you can see he's clearly a human, while Q looks like a robot in his movements and personality.

I like those designs a lot (especially Oro) but I believe Elena, Makoto, Alex or Hugo are much better designs for a SF game. Those odd characters and the grittier atmosphere of SF3 makes it very different from the colorful, martial arts B movie feel of the first two Street Fighters. It's still a great game, though.

.

>>6190515
>Just a mask like Balrog

The thing is we get to see Vega without the mask. He's a narcissistic psychopath and even within SF2 itself we saw him without the mask. He's easy to identify as the crazy self centered murder fuck. Q however IS the mask. He moves in an inhuman way, we don't know anything about who is, what he wants, or what his deal is outside of being a reference to Japanese tokusatsu. The only insight we get into him is his 3S ending which is just some cops talking about how mysterious he is.

Oro is actually one of the more popular weird characters though, and for good reason. You can get it. He's an old master who hid away and grew board with fighting so he sealed his arm to make some challenge for himself. He doesn't really feel as out of place as someone like Q, Necro or 12 who you could probably slide into a Darkstalkers game and no one would think it'd be too off.

>>6192221
None of those guys would fit in Darkstalkers either. Darkstalkers is meant to a classic and light hearted celebration of horror, none of those guys really fit in. 3S' oddballs feel very deliberate in their weirdness,it feels like Capcom wanted to create characters that would be as distinct as possible. Personally i feel III's cast is more interesting personally, though I would never deny how iconic II and Alpha's characters were. I don't think anyone in 3S feels out of place, SF is a series that could have basically fucking anything in it. There are now robots and cyborgs in the cast, the series isn't one meant to be aimed in reality at all.

>>6192221
>Necro or 12 who you could probably slide into a Darkstalkers game and no one would think it'd be too off
That was the entire point of 3rd Strike's cast. It was a celebration of Capcom up to that point for the most part. Only thing missing are weapon based fighters.
The great thing about the cast mechanically is that rd Strike allows you to play the game you want. If you're an Alpha guy, you've got Yun. If you're a Darkstalker, you can play Necro who is a Lord Raptor semi-clone (who himself was a Dhalsim semi-clone) or Twelve for the general purpose. If you like the Marvel vs Capcom series, you can play Oro, who wouldn't be out of place in MVC2. And then you have Yang as a Guy alternative in a more fusiony Final Fight style, plus Hugo as directly lifted from it.
The cast is eclectic because that was what Capcom was by then. You could even see Remy as inspired by the work done on Capcom vs SNK I suppose. It's kind of beautiful when you think about it.

>>6192238
>Darkstalkers is meant to a classic and light hearted celebration of horror
That's a stretch. The only really goofy original character is Lord Raptor, and everyone else is just varying degrees of tamer. You have a guy like Bishamon who is very serious. And you have Pyron who is even more serious and less classic horror inspired, and Donovoan who isn't horror related at all from his design alone. You even had a catgirl that had fuck all to do with horror.
Necro and Twelve could have certainly fit in. Necro is a mutant and Twelve is a synthetic lifeform that can clone.

>>6192253
Raptor is based on Eddie, the zombie mascot of Iron Maiden. Beside being a zombie he is a reference to metal music and punk culture in general. Horror films based on the Heian era of Japan were popular there in the 50's and 60's, he fits well. Also Felicia is a nekomata, a famous youkai in Japanese folklore. While made more "marketable" she still fits the supernatural theme.

Donovan is a weird case. He's clearly a giant reference to several manga, there's official concept art of him using stands from Jojo, but he fits okay enough I feel at least for being a sort of "protagonist" character in Hunter. Pyron is a weird deal, I guess one could argue he fits tbe theme of extraterrestrial horror, though Huitzil does that too and much better.

While not realistic Darkstalkers does have it's fair share of gore. Jedah himself is a walking gore fest, it's great. What I'm trying to say us there's an obvious theme with the series, one that no one in SF truly fits. Necro and Twelve are odd by SF standards, but this is also a series with a green man with electric powers and a man who is half red and half blue that leads a cult that controls the world.

>>6179952
You posted it.

>>6185490
Go to sleep, kid. Go play some UNIEL or something anime.

>>6192271
*Horror films based on the Heian era of Japan were popular there in the 50's and 60's, Bishamon fits well.

Fuck.

>>6180380
What is this supposed to imply

>>6180927
Why do boomers hate on Smash?

How are the DC and PS2 ports of Third Strike? Are there any arcade perfect /vr/ ports or should I just stick to Fightcade?

>>6185490
>People who play fighting games don't play fighting games

>>6193759
The dreamcast port is based on a later revision of 3S that changed some aspects of gameplay, most notably was the removal of a few unblockable setups. Because of this it is considered unviable for tournament play. The port itself is pretty good though,. Dreamcast had pretty good fighting game ports.

Ps2 is closer to the original arcade release but there's still some differences. Usually the one cites most is Akuma's forward MP being throw invincible, a change that hurts him considerably. The main downfall however is that it has six frames of lag, making some combos and things like red parries more difficult to perform. Again, a good port of casual play but the changes are enough to make it unviable for competitive play.

The only console versions of 3S that see use in competitive play are the digital online edition on the ps3/360 and the 30th anniversary edition. Those are both arcade perfect in terms of accuracy and have no gameplay changes.

>>6179952
SF2: The World Warrior, Last Blade 2, SSB, and Virtua Fighter 4

>>6193748
Too dynamic and unconventional for small rigid brain

>>6193947
>SF2: The World Warrior
This meme needs to end.

Killer Instinct
MK Trilogy
Pocket Fighter
SSF2x
Clayfighter series

>>6187443
I like SNK because their character design is pretty cool and creative, the games look really good, the soundtracks are amazing and I'm better at their games than any other fighting games