/vr/ - Retro Games

>>6156017
3rd Strike isn't that imbalanced. But to humor you:
>Yun
A-groove special that fills up super quickly and plays SFA3; Makoto has a similar but different advantage
this is the only truly "imbalanced" character in the cast
>Chun
long limbs and kinda quick with it, + projectile
>Ken
Not even S-tier, but it comes down to having a free projectile, which SF3 wasn't meant for or balanced around

>CVS2
>A-groove Bison
any moron can see it's literally just the coincidence of being able to spam one move over and over when you get someone in a corner; there's no glaring oversight to have been had---it's extreme happenstance
other than that, there's nothing extraordinary about Bison or the A-Groove incarnation

>>6156017
Because fighting games have tiers of characters, they aren't all supposed to be equally strong and fair to use.

The only players who complain about imbalance are scrubs who have a habit of making excuses no matter what. Even in mirror matches they'll find some excuses to make.

>>6156061
>they aren't all supposed to be equally strong
that's bullshit
take Virtua Fighter and Dead Or Alive

>>6156065
and Bushido Blade and Samurai Shodown

>>6156017
>Did they just not care as much about balancing back then?
It genuinely was less of a concern. These games weren't created with competive play in mind, fightimg games today are design with higher levels of play considered. For companies like Capcom and SNK these games were designed to be casual fun, it was more of them trying to make sure nothing was fuck ridiculous broken (and even then they failed sometimes) rather then make a balanced, competitive game.

While it can be frustrating playing against shit like ST Vega or 98 O. Chris I still feel these games are fun. I fucking love Vampire Savior for example. Are characters like Zabel and Sasquatch stupid as fuck? Absolurely, though I'm willing to deal with it. For fans of these games they enjoy despite the bullshit, and for some, because of it.

>>6156042
>any moron can see it's literally just the coincidence of being able to spam one move over and over when you get someone in a corner; there's no glaring oversight to have been had---it's extreme happenstance
>other than that, there's nothing extraordinary about Bison or the A-Groove incarnation

nah his pokes and meterless combos are godlike too, light light light scissor kicks and devils' reverse memes, and st.hk is amazing

bison would be very good even without paint the fence

>>6156068
>Samurai Shodown
>Dead or Alive
>....
All fighting games have tiers when played at a high level.

>>6156070
Darkstalkers is actually a really well-balanced series from my understanding.

I don't see people claim Lord Raptor is too strong or even see many people play him period, which is very strange (they'd rather Q. Bee); but I think Anakaris is easily the most under-equipped and in need of buffing. Even characters that to me ostensibly have very little to work with, namely Jedah, are fairly popular and come with little bemoaning.

I think the lesson there is to make everyone strong, and balance becomes much less of a concern. The problems arise when you try to keep everyone relatively weak, so that if a strong one slips through the cracks, it becomes a major problem.

>>6156074
>All fighting games have tiers when played at a high level.
Not Dead Or Alive, or at least we shall restrict discussion to DOA2, since that's considered retro enough but not outdated.

>>6156076
Vampire Savior is, considering its age, shockingly well balanced I feel. Don't get me wrong, characters like Victor and Anakaris have it rough, but even they see some competitive play which is pretty amazing I feel.

Zabel is among the most technical characters in the game, I think most newcomers don't quite understand just how ridiculously strong he is when starting out. He's stupid as fuck with his j.LK that can be an unblockable which allows him to do some serious bullshit, but actually using him to his potential takes a lot of work. In my experience I actually see a lot of new players gravitate to Bulleta and Lilith, though rarely do they stick with them. Bulleta is highly technical and Lilith is not only pretty technical, but kind of shit too.

Also I wouldn't say the series is overall balanced, tiers in Vampire Hunter are very rigid. Characters like Victor and Donovan are hot fucking garbage in that game

>>6156017
>Why were old fighting games so fucking unbalanced?
Because we weren't eatsports.

HF>ST

>>6156103
SF3S > SF2(X)

>>6156065
In Dead or Alive they aren't equally strong. Even in the more recent sequels. Take 4 for example:

Top Tier: Ryu, Ayane
High Tier: Kasumi, Hayate, Gen Fu, Lei Fang
Mid Tier: Tina, Nicole, Elliot, Bayman, Helena, Kokoro, Brad Wong, Zack
Lower Tier: Leon, Jann Lee, La Mariposa, Christie, Ein
Bottom Tier: Hitomi, Bass, Tengu

Still, the "best" player was a Hitomi player. Because it's as much about skill as strength of the character.

>>6156017
>Why were old fighting games so fucking unbalanced?
Because balanced games are unfun. Its that easy

>>6156125
>Take 4 for example
gladly
>Top Tier
>Ayane
nope
>Ryu
it comes down to his teleports being really strong and izuna drop; the first one is just a matter of literally gitting gud, the second one yes is unavoidable; nevertheless, I wouldn't say either one puts him firmly above everyone else, even if he's ahead of the pack as it were
>High Tier
>Kasumi
eh, she's just easy to play, not necessarily amazing
>Hayate
yes, he's a strong character, but in the same league as Ryu in my opinion---maybe even more dangerous from being less predictable, barring izuna drop
>Gen Fu
I don't see it
>Lei Fang
yeah, hidden boss, but imo not much better than Bayman; both very strong characters
>Mid Tier
>Tina
sure
>Spartan
she's cloned but under-equipped Leon, I don't understand how she'd be considered high tier at all---not to say she's terrible at all because everyone in this game is remarkably playable, but she's blatantly outclassed and was clearly just a last-minute for-fun addition
>La Mariposa
>Brad Wong
both of these are essentially equivalent and both very strong and respectable, I'd put them both on the same level as Lei Fang / Bayman
>Eliot
another hidden boss character that's way stronger than he seems; I'd put him also with the aforementioned 4
>Kokoro
Honestly I think she's an unfinished character and it surprises me people think she's good enough; would easily say Eliot's better than her
>Helena
pretty good character, pretty solid; not much "worse" than aforementioned but still strong, like Tina
>Bayman
again, Lei Fang tier
>Zack
I personally have a stake in this since I loved him in earlier DOAs, but feel like his shifted moveset to accommodate the bobbing and weaving made him suffer in the fun factor; nevertheless, while I don't think the mechanic is particularly good for evasion nor adds much in the way of comboing, he's still at base a solid character and can be just as dangerous as Eliot et. al.

cont.

>>6156125
>>6156145
>Lower Tier
>Leon
great character, arguably equal to Bayman; they really are kinda-sorta just tradeoffs on a base character model, yet Leon is still not worse off
>Jahn Lee
I think he's just a pleb filter; I know I can't play him
>Christie
Kasumi with less mobility but better strikes
Helena with more purely aggressive options
Suffers in the predictability department once you understand what the strings look like; easily rectified by staggering hits; and once she gets you in the air, she's got some of the easiest juggling in the game
No way is she lower tier.
>Ein
IDK maybe I can agree with people who place him here, but I would by no means say he's worse than the Spartan
>Bass
git gud
>Hitomi
very honest, well-rounded character that virtually lacks gimmicks, so it's not hard for me to imagine why someone would say she's among the worst, though I disagree; whatever the case may be, I'd place her on the same level as Tina; and she can't be any worse than Ein considering they're essentially clones
>Tengu
whatevs; he's not as good as in DOA2 so may as well say he's not worth playing

>the "best" player was a Hitomi player
Where? Not in the U.S.
>Because it's as much about skill as strength of the character.
I would say that each character has their own strengths that carry them very far in competition with the other characters, and if you are a good enough player, you can bring out the best in your character.
If you are not good at the fundamentals of the game, you won't get far regardless of who you pick, whether Ryu or Tengu. And even being so good doesn't guarantee you can pick up everyone and play them as well as their dedicated mains---the playstyles are meaningfully distinct.

play Karate Champ. cant get more balanced than that

>>6156126
You're conflating "balance" with "lack of character ability".
Lack of character ability is unfun, not balance.

>>6156087
This. People back then weren't so autistic about competitive gameplay and pretty much everyone played for fun, except some excepcional cases which happened more in countries like EEUU or Japan. I'm from Europe and I only became aware of competitive gaming in the late 90s thanks to internet.

>>6156017
Does this board ever get sick of complaining about retro games? These days it feels like every other thread is bitching about ______ was broken or didn’t age well or was never fun to begin with. It’s okay to have a dialogue about what could be better about certain games but would it kill you to just go to /v/ where a bunch of modern gamers will agree with you instead of bringing it to the Retro Games board every single time?

>>6156167
two players versus sf1 is also very balanced

>>6156017
o. sagat is what you get for offering old versions of characters
for claw blame the speed increase

chun was new to 3s and the game needed a real update after
3s ken is a solid character. i'd argue urien's gameplan with aegis is crazy but ver 990608 removed the unblockable, so at least capcom tried (but the community shunned it)

any sort of custom combo system will always be crazy
mvc2 was barely playtested, let alone had any attempt at balance
look at tron's gamma assist

>>6156017
Because they're very complex games and you often can't predict what kinds of things players will discover when they start really drilling down (ftg players can be crazy obsessive) so it's incredibly hard to have a diverse roster of play styles abd actually balance them each perfectly.

>>6156017
Because it truly doesn't matter if the characters aren't balanced, because the players aren't balanced either. These games were made with the assumption that you would be playing them with your kid brother or you fat friend, who does nothing but play vidya all day, and that the player powergap would be enormous.
Character balance only becomes relevant with players of equal skill, which really only happens in "pro" gaming, and that wasn't as big of a thing back then.
These were leisurely games that were designed with entertainment, and not autism, in mind.

>>6156070
>These games weren't created with competive play in mind,

This makes me laugh a little.

>>6156432
>These games were made with the assumption that you would be playing them with your kid brother or you fat friend,

Lol

You are just massively unskilled bro

>>6156432
Maybe the very first fighting games, but once they caught on it was obvious they were generating tons of profit from repeat customers, competitive customers, or as you'd like to call them AUTISM PEOPLE

Balanced games are shit. And here is why. It is in the human nature to abuse power, gain an unfair edge over the competition. In a theoretically blanced game you take that "fun" away. And on the other side. And unblanced fighting game adds an additional challenge. As in beating high tier characters with low tier characters. And furthermore. The reason why 90s games were so unblanaced is, its incredible hard to foresee how people will abuse certain moves and abilities. And patching games over once a season is completely retarded.

Bottomline: i do not wish to have a balanced fighting game. Its the most boring thing there is. And i am not even a top tier whore.

Balanced games are shit. And here is why. It is in the human nature to abuse power, gain an unfair edge over the competition. In a theoretically blanced game you take that "fun" away. And on the other side. An unblanced fighting game adds an additional challenge. As in beating high tier characters with low tier characters. And furthermore. The reason why 90s games were so unblanaced is, its incredible hard to foresee how people will abuse certain moves and abilities. And patching games over once a season is completely retarded.

Bottomline: a theoretically balanced fighting game is the most boring thing there is. And i am not even a top tier whore most of the time.

>>6156061
>The only players who complain about imbalance are scrubs who have a habit of making excuses no matter what. Even in mirror matches they'll find some excuses to make.
this, stop being a scrublord OP.

>>6156076
>>6156085
For Vsav, general rule is that the "animal" characters are all good to learn.

>>6156106
cringe tryhard

>>6156658
You're retarded.

>>6156781
Most fighting game fans are genuinely subnormal and you will never convince them that characters that play differently can have a roughly equal chance of winning, even by naming existing examples

>>6156017
You might be surprised if you checked out some tier lists from right after these games were released

balance is a meme that casualfags care about.

>>6156061
For competitive games, the best measure of balance is usually how well bottom tier characters can compete against the top tiers (removing obvious outliers like Petshop and Unown). If it's an uphill battle but the bottom tier can potentially win, then it's probably a pretty balanced game. If it's a case where the bottom tiers literally have no way to close distance on the top tiers or need near perfect play, then there's a problem.

>>6157416
well said

>>6156262
This. Getting tired of the constant negativity. This board should be the antidote for /v/‘s cynicism, not the boomer version of it.

>>6156017
>Tekken
>Unbalanced
Nigga, WHAT? Tekken was normies-tier as hell.

>>6157693
how fuckin retarded are you?


OP may be a dumbass, but some of us actually know fighting games.

Almost all Tekken games are all horribly balanced

>Tekken 1
King

his d/f+1 would stagger for a free combo, so if you blocked it, it would end up doing more damage.

>Tekken 4
Jin

Jin can do laser scraper into an UNBLOCKABLE launcher, that was guaranteed the moment you blocked or got hit by the first attack

>Tekken 5
Steve

Steve had a to simply side-step and he could do a fuckin infinite

>Tekken 6
Bob

Bob was just absurdly broken and outshined the rest of the cast with his absurd damage.

>Tekken 7
Leroy Smith

Just watch EVO JAPAN airing on twitch right now, 6 Leroys in Top 8. Character is fuckin bonkers, and dominates everyone.

>>6157043
Yeah, you're retarded.

>>6156085
yeah fuck no,

VSAV is an unbalanced mess

Raptor, Talbain, Sasquatch are fuckin retarded.

>>6156068
>Samsho

is literally one of the earliest examples of jap college students writting entire thesis papers on why certain characters are stronger than others.

Balance between tools is more important than balance between characters.

In KOF98 pokes are strong, combos are strong, defensive options are strong without hijacking the game, throws are good, projectiles are good, all the uses for meter are good. So it's still a fun game even if you have Iori, Chris and Daimon because there's lots to do.

>>6156065
>Virtua Fighter
>balanced

>VF1
Lau is top tier

>VF2
Lau and Wolf

>VF3:TB
Akira & Kage

>VF4
Akira, Sarah, Lau

>VF5
Akira

>>6157723
Yep, the airdash characters dominate the rest of the cast, and then there's poor Anakaris...

>>6156273
its not balanced, because the controls are so fuckin irresponsive that its a literal coin toss on who will win first

SF1 boils down to who can throw a fireball first

>>6157717
This is why I preferred Virtua Fighter's approach to new characters. AM2 was conservative with newcomers, so instead of having a character that shits over the game only to get nerfed into irrelevance, you would have characters that start off weak but gradually come into their own as the series progressed.

>>6157732
this guy gets it,

balancing is an issue, but most games with lopsided tiers still hold plenty of players because those games are multi-faceted with fun options outside of simply top tiers

>>6157741
Four characters have an airdash and only two are top tier, Zabel and Q-Bee. Lei-lei is mid tier and Jedah is low tier.

>>6156145
>Top Tier Ayane
>nope
I agree. I couldn't remember what the tiers were off the top of my head, it's been a long time since I was into DOA 4. So, I searched it and took the information from a couple sources that were consistent.
I would say she and Kasumi are about equal. I would have put Hayate and Ryu in the top tier. I'm not sure any of the other characters are as OP as those two.
>Kokoro
In the right hands, I think she can be really good.
>>6156157
Christie was my main when I used to play online. But, I feel like she's easy to predict. And her damage output is low. Bass is difficult to use, but I think he can be pretty powerful.
>Where? Not in the U.S.
I thought the top ranked player was a Hitomi player, no?

>>6157892
Although I can see where, if used right Ayane could be really hard to predict. She has her backwards stance, and that spin that you can either cancel out of and just use to confuse the opponent, or follow through and start a string attack from it.

>>6156017
>Why were old fighting games so fucking unbalanced?

Because they were quarter munchers designed to hand you your ass on a silver platter and make you want to keep coming back, when fighting games came to home consoles, they no longer needed to have that design.

>>6156017
They didn't have autism levels of competition back then, nor did they expect it, so balancing was legitimately not as great of a concern.

>>6156042
>3rd Strike isn't that imbalanced.
Nice joke.

>>6158084
Smash Bros. didn't even start with balancing until 4, which was six years ago holy fuck it's been that long?

>>6156070
>It genuinely was less of a concern. These games weren't created with competive play in mind

This. We just wanted to punch and kick our friends or other people at the arcade, period. There were no international massive tournaments with millions of USD cash prizes and shit like that. It was just a buncha people playing games, that's it.

>>6156310
>cause they're very complex games and you often can't predict what kinds of things players will discover

also this. You can't really fault old (and hell, new) devs for stuff that the speedrunning community (for example) has discovered over the years.

Shit like wall/floor clips, weird warps, boosts, crits, etc. Video games are incredibly complex, even at the 8/16 bit age and you can only really see these emergent properties come out after hundreds of man-hours of testing.

>>6158383
Even the creator of Street Fighter 2 admitted that balancing in fighting games is boring:
https://jiyunajp.wordpress.com/2017/12/19/akira-nishitani-katsuhiro-harada-interview/

>>6157717
>OP may be a dumbass, but some of us actually know fighting games.

lol who the fuck do you think you are retard

>>6156126
he's right

>>6157720
No, you are.

It's the price you pay for your moves actually doing what it looks like they should. Modern fighters are such a deflated experience with all the guide rails and speed bumps built into them for "balance." Which, by the way, invariably results in characters that can't capitalize on the systems as well as others.

I think Dhalsim is the strongest in SF2, op.

>>6159819
Depends on the version you mean, in ST he is #1 unless you count Akuma. Akuma in ST is kind of weird, he's universally banned in the US but in Japan he's allowed and only softbanned. Ban culture in Japan is basically nonexistent,.I think they allow shit like petshop in tournaments even.

>>6157742
only if you are a shitter, i can fireball consistently in SF1

>>6160439
the fuck? since when is Dhalsim better than O. Sagat?

>>6160447
Most tier lists put n.Sim at #1 and then o.Sagat at #2, it's a bit debatable but generally Sim is thought to be slightly stronger.

I think SF3 has the most balanced roster. Even characters considered weak like Necro, Remy and Q get good spots in tournaments

Also, op forgot

>MvC1
War Machine, Golden WM, Wolverine, Red Venom

>>6160652
I think it's pretty well balanced for a game that is 21 years old but characters like Necro, Remy and Q get good spots in tournaments only when Japanese players who have literally been playing them since the game released are using them. I don' think your average Q or Remy player is going to make it out of pools. Still, as bad as things are in 3S with Chun, Yun, and Ken it's not as bad as shit like ST O. Sagat and Vega.

I see a lot of people complain about 3S' balance, and for good reasons at times, but it really came a long way compared to the other versions of SFIII. NG and SI are jank as fuck.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP88nZ9Cb2E

>>6160439
>I think they allow shit like petshop in tournaments even.
Why? Like, I get not wanting to ban a character unless you REALLY have to, but Petshop is a special kind of retarded. Just being a bird who isn't confined by the laws of gravity alone without make him ridiculous, but his attacks are somehow even more overpowered than the immunity to low attacks.

>>6160721
Like I said, their ban culture is near nonexistent. Instead softbans, where something is technically allowed but frowned upon, is more common there. I don't know if it's a weird culture thing but actual bans seem nonexistent in Japan.

>>6160652
>I think SF3 has the most balanced roster
It does.
Only Yun is in any semblance broken.
And you have to be thick in the head to think Necro isn't at least mid-tier; he could be higher, as good as Dudley even.
>>6160676
>Japanese players who have literally been playing them since the game released
So the only good 3rd Strike players...
>Chun, Yun, and Ken
Yun is the biggest problem, Chun-Li is a considerable step below that, and Ken is a considerable step below that. Even Makoto is stronger than Ken.
>>6160676
>for good reasons
typically no

>>6156017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlT2KOGCjBo
ST is a lot more fair than zoomers give credit for but considering most don't actually play any old games they just assume those three dominate everything when that's not the case

legends say kof 94 still hasnt been beaten

>>6156017

Tiers only matter at high level of play,otherwise the best player always wins

>>6160806
>t. chunli main

>>6164571
Bitch, Dhalsim's EXTREMELY hard to deal with at lower levels in nearly every game he appears in. There are tiers at every level of play, even if they're not the same tiers as top level.

>>6161737
>posting the literal best honda player in the world like it means anything

You might as well post a video of Kuroda winning as proof of something.
ST isn't fair, but that's also part of what makes it fun.

>>6164598
>Bitch, Dhalsim's EXTREMELY hard to deal with at lower levels in nearly every game he appears in.

He is only top tier in ST and A3 and even in those games bad dhalsim players get exposed since they only use him has a counter pick and cannot deal with his bad matchups.The fact that (you) cannot deal with keep away has nothing to do with the meta.

>>6156017
to make you pay more in arcades

Yes dhalsim is theoretically the best character in ST but his bad matchups are extremely frustrating and cammy's jumping medium punch is extremely hard for him to deal with, he also gets raped after knockdows by characters with a throw loop (like boxer).

You basically can't make mistakes with dhalsim. That's why boxer, chun, and old sagat are way better consistent picks.

>>6164598
Dhalsim is only hard if you're a coward.

Play a good game like a2 instead

>>6165223
the fuck are you talking about
sims worst matchup is a 6-4 in his favor, some say 7-3

hurr cant make mistakes
yea thats everyone dumbass

>>6164578
Sugiyama (Necro) vs Koshun (Chunli)
8,698 views
•Nov 14, 2006
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U-PEDGtG7Y


SFIII: 3rd Strike - Ibuki [Atsushi] vs Chun Li [Hiyama]
8,990 views
•Jul 16, 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN7lphQ-l0w
9:13 to 10:43 is how you beat Chun-Li with Ibuki; also up to 11:27

>>6165268
A2's balance is pretty wonky though, Ryu, Ken, Chun, and Rose are way too good. Fun game though, I'm too stupid for A3 so I enjoy A2's more simple approach.

>>6156076
>>6156085
>DS
>Balanced
lol no. Daigo himself, who really loves Vampire Hunter, has said that the balance of that game's all over the place.

>>6158089
so why does every character have tons of players except for the actual trash like sean and twelve

>>6156017
>ST
Chun is among the best in the game, Sim is top 2, Dee Jay is strong as shit
>3s
Makoto is better than Ken, Dudley, Urien, Yang, Akuma, etc... are more than playable and every mid tier can hang out. EVO Japan's side tournament was won by a Ryu and a Hugo got 3rd.
>A3
Dhalsim is the best character in the game, Zangief is strong as shit, Karin is strong
>CvS2
C-Groove and K-Groove are strong grooves with their own options and you're an idiot for thinking A-Groove is the best by miles. Sagat is top 2 in the game in both A and K, Cammy is strong as shit in A and K too, Vega is classicaly considered strong as fuck in A, according to BAS (the best CvS2 player of all time) Geese is among the strongest characters in the game and the character's recent success makes it hard to argue otherwise, Chun is strong as fuck. This game in particular has a ton of characters and playstyles available
>MvC2
It is unbalanced as shit but Sentinel is arguably better than both Magneto and Storm and Cable is more than viable, Iron Man is playable, so are Strider and Spiral
>KoF 98
Chizuru and Kyo are top tier too and playing high and mid tiers is more than viable with how volatile everyone is.
Not that it matters since you're likely not even close to good enough for tiers to matter anyways.
TL;DR fuck off

>>6166979
Japan thinks Nash is the best character actually, and Akuma is strong as fuck too. Turns out the widely agreed upon US tier list was mostly wrong according to them, and they still play the game so

>>6157843
IAD is still bullshit and puts them at an unfair advantage over the others in Vsav.

>>6167282
This was the top 8 for Evo Japan's top 8 for vsav, this was literally last week.

>Mano: Lilith
>Linne: Felicia
>Takahashi: Felicia
>Bow: Aulbath
>Dara: Demitri
>Nakanishi: Bishamon
>OKKB: Sasquatch
>Toho: Bulleta
Not one repeated character, only two of the eight characters here are considered top tiers, one character who is considered low tier, and not a single one of these characters have an airdash.

I'm not trying to argue vsav is perfectly balanced, it isn't, but it's nowhere near as bas as most other games of its age.

>>6167048
How is Sean trash?
And ironically Twelve is fine with X. Copy but nobody uses that one. I'm convinced Twelve is for true master players.

>>6167254
>Turns out the widely agreed upon US tier list was mostly wrong according to them
This is always true. America sucks at fighting games compared to Japan and shouldn't be trusted with knowing what's good and not.
>>6167324
This is what always confuses me---is Lord Raptor soft-banned? Is he really that difficult for people to play? People are always trying to claim here he's a top tier and yet nobody plays him.

>>6167337
Anon, please stop talking about shit you don't know about. Sean is a literal joke character, they tried making him an actual character in SI but they made him too strong and nerfed him into a joke character in 3S. Twelve is absolute fucking dogshit who does piss damage. They are easily the two worst characters in 3S.

>>6167346
Zabel is not softbanned, for awhile his j.LK was sofbanned at some events as it can become an unblockable if set up correctly and become very difficult to do anything about.

Zabel is very technical, he is not just hard to understand fully but using him requires very good execution. Zabel is, in theory, a "perfect" character as he has no real flaws, he has low hp but it's barely the problem. What makes him so hard is that every tool he has is good and has a use, and he has a fuck ton of tools. With most characters there's usually a handful of moves that have no real use in competitive play but Zabel needs to use everything he has to be as good as possible. At lower levels of play he may not be as hard to understand as characters like Bishamon or Bulleta, but as you get to higher levels of play Zabel requires a lot of dedication and commitment to fully understanding. Bishamon is sort of similar, he's an extremely strong character but highly technical, and when characters like Sasquatch and Gallon exist people will naturally flock to them instead. Lilith is a similar case, I've been playing for a couple years and I can't tell you how many new players start out interested in Lilith only to drop her a week later, not only is she difficult but she's pretty shit as well unfortunately.

>>6167243
>A3
forgot about Sodom, he's strong as shit too.

>>6167364
Sakura and Ryu are also really strong in A3.

>>6167347
On the contrary you sound like the one who doesn't know what they're talking about. Pro-tip: play the games before you swallow wholesale what you've read online.

>>6167360
>Everyone is too retarded to play him.
Wasn't the answer I was expecting.

>>6167374
Yep, he there are of course people who play him but naturally few are willing to dedicate the effort into him, characters like Sas and Gallon are nearly as strong and require a fraction of the effort to play. Competitive vsav consists mostly of those two and Aulbath, who is at the top of high tier, and then some Q-Bee, Bulleta, Demitri and Felicia.

>>6167385
Thanks.
Now I have one more item to stack upon my growing ego desu.

>>6167372
Let me guess, tiers don't exist and parry mean everyone is equal right?

Fuck off retard, Sean and Twelve are irrelevant to 3S' meta. If you wanted to argue a reasonable character like Hugo, who has some play, I would get it but not fucking Sean and Twelve.

>>6167439
You guess wrong. And you're a brainlet on top of that.

>>6167463
Post all those tournaments that Seans and Twelve made top 8 and I'll apologize.

>>6167505
Go find me the X Copy Twelve mains.
Show me the best Sean gameplay you've ever seen.

>>6167534
>Go find me the X Copy Twelve mains
>Best Sean gameplay
Doesn't exist because no one plays either of these two shit characters.

>>6156103
based and hf-pilled

>>6158564
>>6158383
it helps that if your friend was being THAT GUY they were in arm's reach back then

>>6167364
He is very good because of his backroll, buttons, 360, and custom combo. His anti airs are kind of weak though. I think he may be top tier.

>>6167254
Japan doesn't play alpha 2. The best alpha 2 players were people like alex valle and john choi, so I wouldn't trust what Japan has to say about a2.

Insecure guys can't handle losing, so they invest all their time in this and look for the best tactics just to win. People that talk about tiers, balancing issues or that put in hours into training into silly games made for kids need to find a better thing to do with their lives.

I bet you are the type to disconnect during a match to protect his fragile ratio.
faggot

>>6156017
Because fighting game autists werent around yet to kill the community.

>>6168021
Japan keeps playing A2 to this day and whenever BAS goes out he shits over everyone in the US with Akuma while not even having it as his main game.

Valle and Choi were the best US players but you are deluded if you think the US ever had the overall best players in any SF game. They could compete but Japan as a whole has always been stronger to this day.

>>6168325

fighting game autists were the community before streaming and the release of sf4

>>6168759
this, though Tekken fans were the same emerging market

>>6167243
>mvc2
I'd argue it goes, storm sentinel magneto and then cable, in that order. Majority of the cast has no way to deal with storms runaway game, she can build meter really quick and just hailstorm all day.
That being said all of the God tier characters are absurdly good and a cut above the rest

>>6167337
His normals are shit, his specials are slow and unsafe, lack of damage, I don't think he has a meterless reversal. I think his only saving grace is his taunt and all 3 of his supers are okay

>>6168325
The fighting game community is bigger now than ever though.

>>6170168
"Fighting game" "community"
If you take smashtards out of it its actually not doing so good.

>>6167337
>X-copy Twelve
>remotely viable

jesus christ

you have no idea what makes Twelve weak, and yet you think him turning into his opponent makes him viable

you mean that changing character to anyone other than Twelve is more viable that playing as Twelve. And yet you think Twelve is viable.

>>6171331
this post made me laugh really hard

that other dude is something else, man.

>>6168818
>his specials are slow and unsafe

nothing in Third Strike is safe because of parry and red parry

>>6164571

Your brainlet who doesn't understand what he hears. Tier lists are made on the assumption the characters will be played by two players of equal skill who have both mastered the character. That doesn't mean low level play is suddenly balanced. Combo heavy characters with difficult tech will suck, while a more simple character or one who is more difficult to punish than execute will dominate.

It's not that the best player always wins, its that a tier list doesn't matter because it was built on the assumption both players have the knowledge and skill to use their character to the fullest which isn't true for low level play.

>>6171569
>two players of equal skill

You must be a marxist to believe humans can be equal
Equality is a absolute math value and cannot be measured in any concrete way in living beings.

>That doesn't mean low level play is suddenly balanced

it is not since at low level the better player will win regardless of the matchup since
fundamentals,matchup and mechanic knowledge >>>>> theory fighting

>>6157717
>Tekken 2
Mishimas: guaranteed twin pistons after a fucking JAB

Bruce: if the first hit of F+2,d+4,3 is BLOCKED then the rest is guaranteed. The first hit is a jab BTW.

Wang: Waning Moon = death

Armor King is up there as well.

>>6171565
Some of his supposedly good moves are unsafe on HIT.

>>6156017
Because they underestimated how autistic neckbeards would get with video games

>>6171605
>You must be a marxist to believe humans can be equal
don't be a tranny with your marxist shit, he meant similar skill level

>fundamentals,matchup and mechanic knowledge
all scarce at low skill level, hence "low skill"

some characters are more unga bunga than others and shitters will do better using them, not a hard concept to understand

>>6172203
>scarce at low skill

the minimal differences of skills will determine the better player

> not a hard concept to understand
> unga bunga

This is a failed attempt at a argument and is irrelevant.Easier to use characters will perform better at low level compared to more technical higher tiered ones.

>>6171918
Why do you people keep posting this shit when the games were revised multiple times to nerf characters? Or do you want to tell me that Capcom accidentally nerfed Bison between CE and HF?

>>6156042
>Ken isn't S-tier
>Yun is the only imbalanced character

Imagine having a dumpster for a brain, like this idiot

>>6156070
This isn't true at all. One of the purposes of location tests was to identify broken shit, weak characters, and improve game balance

>>6160806
>Makoto is stronger than Ken

Maybe in absolute terms, but Makoto is a glass cannon. If you can't get her bullshit started, she will always lose to Yun/Chun/Ken.

>>6164646
Honda is also unquestionably a lower-tier character in ST. Just like Q is in 3s. But of course this all changes depending on the player. It doesn't change the fact that these characters aren't good, and that these games are heavily unbalanced

>>6164804
>Sim
>ST
>Top tier
a ha ha ha
at least you're not wrong about A3

>>6172472
They nerfed Dictator and Sagat by accident, I guess, totally not intentional

>>6172438
Let's use Pikachu in Smash64 as an example of an unga bunga character, regardless of whether you consider that a fighting game. Even players who main more technical characters will often just switch to Pikachu after the first round if they find out that playing reactively doesn't work against their opponent. Pikachu is very, very easy to play in top-level play because he controls the rhythm of the match. Any character in the game can beat Pikachu, but he basically puts the ball in the opponent's court in regards to fighting him.

That's what a tier list largely boils down to: How easy is it for a good player to win with this character? Hell, you can even argue Pikachu isn't even the best character in the game, just the most foolproof.

>>6170893
EVO already cut like half of the smash kids when they were finished with Melee, didn't hit them to hard after the Melee people were done with their tantrums

>>6176564
Lots of them moved to ultimate. My brother was going to local tournaments for melee but totally dropped it when ultimate came out.

>>6156017
>chun/yun/ken
Look at this retard not understanding 3S

>>6174975
>if you are bad at the character you will lose to someone else
no shit???
>It doesn't change the fact that these characters aren't good, and that these games are heavily unbalanced
Or maybe you just suck.

>>6175054
>That's what a tier list largely boils down to: How easy is it for a good player to win with this character?
Or, in other words, how untouchable/unbeatable they are---and this is why 3rd Strike is very balanced outside of Yun with you-know-what.

>>6171331
>X-copy Twelve
>remotely viable
Yes.
>you have no idea what makes Twelve weak
you have no idea what makes Twelve strong
>yet you think him turning into his opponent makes him viable
it does
>you mean that changing character to anyone other than Twelve is more viable that playing as Twelve
I think it helps a lot; he's still good enough until you get the requisite meter
>yet you think Twelve is viable
I do

>>6168818
>I think his only saving grace
then you really aren't thinking hard enough


It's alright if neither of you are good enough at 3rd Strike to pull off wins with them---this is 4channel after all---but just say that next time instead of defaulting to "the character is bad".

>>6177012
0 content

>>6177036
self-referential post

>>6174975
Sim is literally #1 in ST you retard.
>>6177012
Please, show us all the tournaments that Twelve has made top 8 anon. Surely a character as strong as him gets consistent top placings at events.

>>6156017
>>6156042
>Boxer
Balrog. Just say Balrog. This is an English Board. Everyone knows the name situation. You don't have to say Boxer outside of wanting to be an absolute ponce.

>>6156017
it sounds like you dont even play the retro fighting games to be honest. you're actually complaining about MSP? is this.. is this a joke? are you that bad at these?

ST is unbelievably balanced. 3rd strike is a boring pile of shit.

Fighting games are still unbalanced today. Leeroy had recently been released as DLC and In the last Tekken 7 tournament there were six Leeroy players in the top 8. It takes the developers a few months to nerf the new character. Usually the new DLC is banned for the first tournament or so to give the developers time to figure out how to balance them once they see how the professionals are using the character.

>>6177012
>Or, in other words, how untouchable/unbeatable they are
No. I just told you Pikachu is beatable. A LOT of Smash 64 tournaments end up looking like pic related, where there's a pretty diverse lineup of characters in the top 8, with only one or two Pikachu mains among them. Then like half of the 9-16th place players exclusively play Pikachu. Pikachu is the top of the top-tiers mainly because he's just piss-easy to play compared to most other characters, not because he's all that dominating (although yes, there are tournaments where everyone just plays fucking Pikachu).

>>6177195
>ST is unbelievably balanced
What did he mean by this?

>>6178094
You know, i just realized, most of these EVO matches are just exploits and glitches, aka cheating, and they smell their own farts.

remember when fighting games were fun?

>>6178143
Fightan has literally never been fun.

>>6178143
Wow, it's almost as if people like to win.

>>6178094
Why do they each have their own TV?

>>6178239
Usually major events try to have people sit apart so that the button mashing of the other person doesn't bother each player. Usually this is only reserved for top 8, in pools they won't be this excessive about setups and have everyone play like that, but for the top 8 they try to have it be more professional. Looking at the opponent's controller or listening for sound cues is a legitimate strategy people would use.

>>6178143
That's how people always played fighting games. Your stupid house rules don't apply outside of your living room.

>>6178231
Right? Evo is a tournament that people fly out to to play in. While there are lots of fun times to be had, when you get that deep into a tournament, there's money to be won.

>>6177012
>you have no idea what makes Twelve strong
please enlighten us

i have the time

>>6177729
>No. I just told you Pikachu is beatable
keyword is *how*
>not because he's all that dominating
you sure about that?

>>6178275
1st step is invisibility

>>6178280
Go on? You have two (2) remaining attempts.

>>6177173
>Balrog. Just say Balrog.
>This is an English Board.
His name is literally Mike fucking Bison.
There is no if-ands-or-buts about this. It is clearly not Balrog, although it happens to suit him.

>>6177195
>3rd strike is a boring pile of shit.
casual filtered

>>6178282
Are you denying that Twelve's invisibility is key?
If so, I have nothing more to say to you.

>>6178163
Try SSB: Brawl Minus. That might be a fun fighting game for you.

>>6178283
Don't respond to those plebs. Any fighting discussion thread worth its salt would have just continued the discussion upon seeing Boxer. Only autismos who don't play fighting games get triggered by that.

And anyone who wants to argue that point with me should see me in ST so they can get their dick slapped.

>>6178293
CONTINUE?
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1...

GAME OVER

>>6177565
No, stuff like that is blatant pay-to-win practice. They know full well what they're doing. Cloud, Bayonetta, Mr. Karate, etc.

>>6178301
Ah I see you are a dimwit. Learn to analyze characters better instead of relying on 12 year old "information".
It's not the character---it's the players.

>>6178306
There's surely going to be some 3S side tournies at Evo this year. Go get that free money while playing as Twelve.

>>6178342
You just don't get it.

>>6178306
>It's not the character---it's the players.
No, a character can be so shitty that even a truly good player will lose purely based on their character. Playing Twelve is a handicap, unless you want to post factual results that show the character placing high in tournaments you can't prove otherwise.

>>6178348
We get it, you play Twelve and think you're some kind of god with him. You're not.

>>6178357
That's not it at all, but keep spouting dumb shit.
>>6178351
>No, a character can be so shitty that even a truly good player will lose
Sure
But 3rd Strike has no such characters
>Playing Twelve is a handicap
No he isn't
>unless you want to post factual results
It has nothing to do with results because nobody in the scene evidently knows how to correctly play him
>the character placing high in tournaments you can't prove otherwise
You are so fucking stupid that you literally cannot fathom theoretical discussion and only deal in concrete "results". it's clear this topic is absolutely beyond you.

>>6178375
>It has nothing to do with results because nobody in the scene evidently knows how to correctly play him
https://youtu.be/mHWXDaQPau0

What fighting games do you honestly believe are balanced?

>>6178415
Gundam Wing Endless Duel

>>6178436
um lol

half the cast has infinites

>>6178440
I just wanted to mention it

>OP cries about a solved problem
The reason the 2/3 and first to X formats emerged in arcades were because they afforded people a chance to change characters after a loss. People that actually play fighting games understand it's all about matchups.
If someone really was a braindead o.Sagat spammer you could just beat him with a middling pocket Claw. And so on and so forth. The better player can adapt and that's why we have these formats.
Part of Daigo's legacy from the battle of the bays besides coming back to Japan to say American's were way better than he thought they would be was to come back and say 'their tournament system is better than ours'.

>>6178390
Hey, thanks anonimo

>>6178415
Street Fighter 1

Only playable characters are Ryu and Ken, and they play the exact same.

>>6178375
I guess no one will ever learn him, because he's not worth the time when much better characters exist and are much easier to use.

>>6178563
>I guess no one will ever learn him
Me too.
>much easier to use
got that right

>>6156543
yeah, espcially when you know about how autistic japan was "NO YOU CAN'T INCREASE THE GAMEPLAY SPEED BY LIKE 20% FOR HYPER FIGHTING THAT WILL MAKE EVERYTHING FUCKING RANDOM ONLY DUMB GAIJIN LIKE THIS"

>everyone in japan loves it in play tests
>still makes super slow out of spite

It is true "character" balance was less considered, but the actual game planning was far more refined. Everything now is just a shitty sf2/sf3 hybrid that fails to emphasize the space control or rushdown/mixups.

>>6178606
To be fair the speed Darkstalkers 3 is usually played at in tournaments is disgustingly spastic.

>>6178616
It's not "spastic", that's how fast the game naturally plays. It's meant to be faster paced then then stuff like SF.

>>6178754
>that's how fast the game naturally plays
no, they put it at a higher turbo
Darkstalkers 2 was "slower" (i.e. normal paced) and you'll see that in footage comparing them
>It's meant to be faster paced then then stuff like SF.
No duh, but they set it at an even higher speed than the default.

>>6156017
All you gotta do to beat 3rd Strike Chun-Li is abuse the air
She doesn't have too many options against that line of approach