/vr/ - Retro Games

I always thought it was neat the way FF1 fit in a bonus boss by just making it a rare spawn in the second to last dungeon. It felt very ahead of its time, although I'm not sure if any of its contemporaries did something similar.

>>5989040
Hey! Blue board!

Sup

>>5989040
fuck :(

>>5989040
>be 7 year old me
>finally reached the top of the sky fortress
>oh cool a new enemy
>wipes my party in 2 rounds

This was peak unfair childhood gaming experience for me.

>>5989040
Just use bolt 3 lmao

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTZzi6pxBG0

>>5989489
>bolt

>>5989040
He a cute

*quickly dodges*

*wonders what the hell happened with his life and contemplates suicide*

>>5989536
I bet you go on /mu/ and reply to people that listening to music is stupid.

>>5989592
/mu/ has turned into nothing more than shitposting, so someone like >>5989536 wouldn't be too far off.

When playing this for the first time in '88, kinda floored me seeing a robot in what is supposed to be high fantasy. Then again, the Sky Fortress/Castle is actually a space station.

>>5989686
I actually like that about some of the earlier FF games. There randomly existing some high tech with no acknowledgment in an otherwise medieval fantasy world is amusing.

>>5989726
If done right, yes. FF did so by making it come from a civilization so old no one really remembers.

They did they same for Mana, Saga and some one offs. But Xenogears kinda made it wanky.

When the game was was released in 1990 for NES we had pic related when we played it. We knew warmech was bad news and we simply didn't know where to find him. When a town person mentions a "Robot in a cave" we were terrified of that cave for a while thinking that is where warmech lived.

If definitely caught us off guard when we did find it so unexpectedly. I got on the phone and called some friends to come over saying "I found warmech!"

>>5989106
Only time I had to cheat and use the saw. Not even the creator gave me that much trouble.

I really hope he shows up in FFXIV as a trial boss, I want to see him in glorious 3D while he nuclears a new generation of people.

>>5989686
Final Fantasy wasn't released in the US until 1990.

>>5989686
>being alive before 1990
Jesus Christ.

>>5990114
That's cute. That kind of experience literally just doesn't exist anymore.

>>5989686
>>5989726
>>5989740
hi-tech/sci-fi stuff mixed in with fantasy in the guise of being from an "ancient advanced race" is legit one of my favorite tropes, but I feel like it is somehow both over and underused. It's been a big staple in Japanese media ever since Castle in the Sky popularized it, and I could prattle off half-a-dozen video games an anime that copypasta the same plot almost exactly down to the characters being interchangeable. I've actually done a lot of digging to see if that plot was used at all before that. Castle in the Sky mutated from a '70s anime Miyazaki worked on called Future Boy Conan, but I've not seen enough to know whether or not it adheres as closely to the formula. The basic concept of a lost civilization with advanced technology arguably dates back to the Atlantean legends, though, so it might just be that.

>>5989040
The whole floating castle is bullshit.

>Eye shows up as a random encounter that can instakill members of your party
>Sorcerers can paralyze your party while their golem cohorts smash you to pieces and you can't defend yourself
>motherfucking Warmech
>"Monsters fight first!"
>Nuclear
>ded

Still a fun game though. And I like how (at least in the NES version) the floating castle is actually a high-tech space station, instead of a literal castle.

>>5990924
>And I like how (at least in the NES version) the floating castle is actually a high-tech space station, instead of a literal castle.
Seriously. Probably one of the coolest parts of the game. You wind up in this abandonned, ancient space fortress made of metal that's been overrun by random monsters and shit, and then in the final stretch, you encounter a still-active robotic death machine. It makes the encounter, and the entire area so much more interesting.

>>5990145
I'm hoping he shows up as an optional super boss in FFVIIR myself. It would be a cool nod and the game is only the first part taking place in Midgar, it would make sense to have some powerful mechanical foes to fight there until we face Emerald and Ruby

>>5990924
>>Eye shows up as a random encounter that can instakill members of your party
That is because it is a beholder from AD&D and their eye beams include "disintegrate" (RUB), "death"(XXXX), and "petrification"(BRAK). For an unlicensed AD&D game, the first FF was the most faithful game of its era to the TSR ruleset and was especially meticulous when it came to monster data imported from the first edition monster manual.

This is why the worms and mind flayers (mage/sorcerer) also have a death attack in final fantasy. Worms in 1st edition AD&D could swallow you whole, and mind flayers literally ate your brain. Perilysk, the red bird thing also has a death attack because it is a pyrolysk, which i believe is the only monster in Final fantasy from monster manual 2 instead of MM1. Their gaze causes spontaneous human combustion resulting in instant death.

>>5991005
I've never seen the Eye cast BRAK but they do cast Petrify.

Also, woah, fascinating stuff. I knew about the Eye=Beholder thing, and I pretty much figured that the mages were supposed to be mind flayers, but I didn't realize that the D&D influence ran that deep.

>>5991028
Brak is petrify, depending on the version you play of FF1.

But it's not just the monsters that follow AD&D rules. The weird spell limitations are also copied over. It's obvious they used "spells memorized per day" spell system in the game, but the spells themselves have the weird limitations from their AD&D counterparts. The spells being unbalanced and at times terrible or redundant are a result of following players handbook (1st edtion) too closely.

If you ever wondered why lower level debuff spells are more effective than some of the higher level ones, it is because the high level death and blind spells are power words, which in AD&D had a hp cap, so enemies with more hit points than the spells limit were immune. Lower level spells had no such limits, do the level 3 HOLD spell can paralyze even bosses, but not the (power word) STUN spell at 6th level due to its hp limitation. But the 8th level "time stop" STOP spell is semi effective once again, but still shit. This is because AD&D magic was mostly shit at the time.

>>5991125
Is the HP limit based on current HP or max HP?

Because I killed Chaos with a BRAK spell once, which was totally unexpected.

>>5991142
Brak isnt a power word type spell, so it can instant kill bosses regardless of hp. It is the "flesh to stone" spell from D&D and I have killed tiamat with it.

FF treats petrification as the poison element, so undead are immune to it as well. Tiamat is weak to poison so it works on her. Are you sure it was Chaos and not tiamat you landed it on, because chaos should be immune to that element.

>>5991185
>Are you sure it was Chaos
I'm 100% sure. I was getting desperate, Chaos had just cast CUR4 on himself and BRAK was one of the last spells I had left.

>>5991274
Maybe the version affects this. Nes north america version had many glitches in the spells, with some not working whatsoever. Maybe later ports fucked with it as well, or unfucked it in this case.

Either way, Chaos should be immune to Brak in most versions. Maybe he is just highly resistant and there is a %0.5 success rate? I am curious now.

>>5991370
Some FF speedrunner (I forget who, I think it might have been Gyre_) told me that BRAK has a 3/256 chance to kill Chaos, I don't know if it's specific to the US NES version though. It's been a while since I thought about it.

>>5989040
Omae wa mou shindeiru.

>>5990145
Doubt it since the series disowned it after the first game, being a Kawazu thing and all, it's much more realistic to see it coming back in future SaGa games.

>>5990924
>"Monsters fight first!"
This shit. This fucking horseshit.

>>5991125
Quad X, which was power word: kill in D&D, is also limited to enemies with less than 300 HP, but it's got a pretty high chance to work. It's not a terrible spell if you're a speed runner because in that case, you're likely to be underleveled and know the boss's max HP, so you'll have an idea of when to start casting it for the execute.

>>5991873
The four lords from FF Legend 1 showed up as bosses, at least I think it was from Legend since I don't think any FF game had them.

>>5992146
prepare your anus

*Chainsaw sounds*

>>5989106

Fuck you, I fail to make it to this fine gentleman cause Odin keeps knocking down my poorly trained party.

>>5992193
FFL had some pretty sweet artwork for it, I love the whole "ruins of a technological age where high tech equipment is scarce".

>>5992237
You do realize FFL is not really a FF game, right?

>>5992179
The four symbols are just common chinese folklore, they have little to do with SaGa 1 in particular, and if you want to be picky they were also featured in FF Type-0, it's just a common eastern trope.
Granted that some of the SaGa team members do work on FFXIV, just like they did in XI, the only SaGa thing featured in FFXIV is Midare Retsugekka, and the cameo costumes from The Last Remnant.

>>5990168
Sorry, was'nt in the states then.

>>5990178
Why are you here?

>>5990880
Very much this anon. Looking at many JRPG's one can see Miyazaki's works in them, but that fine because it was what was big at the time. Crystalis/Godslayer is all but an open homage to Naussicca.

>>5990924
>>5990938

Well, the Lufenish reminants did say they were into the universe, so. It could be argued Mirage Towere was semi technological too.

>>5992237
The 16th floor was a trip.

>>5990880
This is a good post. I like you

>>5992264
And did you know super mario 2 was actually a game called doki doki panic in Japan?

You do realize shut the fuck up?

>>5990880
The absolute kino example of this was in the megaman series.
Megaman Legends really took this trope and perfected it

>>5992398
Thanks, anon, I try. I actually forgot to mention that Future Boy Conan was based on a book by Alexander Key called "The Incredible Tide", from 1970. The story was basically about a post-apocalyptic Earth where a new industrial empire was forming and looking to procure a weapon from an advanced, ancient civilization, but that civilization was basically just modern day Earth, and the weapon (that had caused the apocalypse, I presume) was nukes. So that seems to be one of the earliest instances of that plot structure that Miyazaki popularized, definitely. He just added a heavy dose of fantasy when he adapted it to Castle in the Sky, which is when it really took off. However, it occurs to me that a VERY similar plot popped up in the anime "Mysterious Cities of Gold" in summer of '82, which focuses around the highly advanced yet lost empire of "Mu", which is basically just the Atlantis of the Pacific Ocean, so it's pretty obvious that these themes were popularized by more than just Miyazaki.

The trope is overused as fuck but I'm such a sucker for it. Castle in the Sky, Skies of Arcadia, Grandia, and Nadia are some of my favorite games/anime to use it. You can even see a lot of similar ideas in stuff like Chrono Trigger and FFVII, even though they follow the formula more loosely.

>>5992380
>Crystalis/Godslayer is all but an open homage to Naussicca.
Yes! I haven't touched that game in forever. I need to change the battery in my copy and do a playthrough. I fuckin' love Nausicaa, I recently read the manga and it was pretty great, so I'd certainly be in the mood for this.

>>5992731
Wasn't Mega Man Legends already pretty hi-tech? Doesn't matter, I guess, it's more incentive for me to play that game. I didn't have a PS1, but I grabbed a copy a long time ago and have been meaning to play it. This is a pretty good incentive, thanks!

>>5993068
>Skies of Arcadia
I particularly love this game because you can totally tell it was made by people who grew up watching those kinds of anime. It's incredibly obvious that the game is just a huge love letter to the likes of Nadia, Castle in the Sky, and to a more superficial extent, Captain Harlock and Starblazers. Back when I first played this game in 2001, I was just like "oh neat, ancient robots", but now when I replay it, since I've seen all the anime that clearly inspired the game, I can really appreciate the homages.

>>5993240
And Skies of Arcadia is also heavily inspired by the age of exploration, which gives it some ties to Mysterious Cities of Gold, which I mentioned earlier, with which it shares many plot elements as well. And in the Japanese version of SoA, the lost civilization of Soltis is literally called "Atlantia" which brings the whole thing back around to the legends of Atlantis which inspired this kind of story in the first place.

Might not be the thread for this kind of stuff, but I could blather about this shit for ages, so whatevs.

>>5993068
Which took to a degree from the Mahabharata.

>>5990880
>>5993068
>people on /vr/ discussing Future Boy Conan
Genuinely restored my faith in humanity, FBC is one of the few animes I have ever truly loved.

>>5991005
So wait, were literally all of FF's monsters from D&D? Including the sci-fi ones like Warmech?

>>5994243
No, FF took much from D&D, but not all. WarMech is original to the series.

>>5994252
It's strange, looking through the enemy list, it looks like Warmech and the other robots, and Chaos/Garland are the only native enemies, the rest are either common animals or common RPG enemy types.

>>5994373
Palette swaps were common back then.

>>5994373
They weren't trying to make anything spectacular with FF. It was supposed to be Square's last role playing game or something, hence FINAL. They tossed together some stuff and it managed to stick.
Also, the programmer for FF was a bit of a loon, but he somehow made things work to the point where the game is still awesome despite having broken elements.

>>5994423
I've heard, but never found a source for, that he specifically programmed FF2's ultimate spell to be purposefully weak compared to other spells, saying that ancient spells would be weaker than modern ones that had time to develop. I also heard that Sakaguchi caught wind of that and asked him to change it, and when he wouldn't the team tried to make the change themselves but failed. Is there any truth to that?

>>5994449
>Is there any truth to that?
I don't know. I'm not a historian.

>>5994237
Old anime is fuckin' based. I really don't wanna sound like a boomer, screeching "OLD GOOD, NEW BAD", but it's really true. Anime was doing some really high-concept and innovative stuff in the '70s and '80s, basically the kind of shit you would only find in fantasy novels in the west, if you were lucky, but in Japan it was airing on mainstream TV. Sadly, I find there's a point, right around the late '90s and early 2000s where anime just started to take on a flavor that I find entirely unpalatable. They're still doing some very high concept and interesting stuff nowadays, but I find the presentation of modern anime to be... grating, would be the best word, I suppose. Every time I find a series that I'm interested in, I can barely tolerate more than a few episodes.

>>5994204
Interesesting, if true, but I lack the wherewithal to delve into ancient Indian literature. Care to elaborate?

>>5994423
That was interesting as fuck, thanks anon.

How is it that a thread about the Warmech turned into the best thread on /vr/ in years?

>>5995020
>Care to elaborate?
in the various wars of the gods in Indian mythology they throw around weapons that have descriptions that have modern analogues
with the two biggest being nuclear weapons and guided missiles

>>5994449
I mean, Ultima in FF2 is only weak since you get it at lvl 1 quite late in the game, when your other spells are probably much higher level

>>5992385
What if Mirage Tower was originally where they launched things into space from, and that it used to be surrounded by a huge complex of different scientific R&D facilities and stuff?

Then after the Fiends attacked, all that knowledge was buried under the desert sands and only that tower remains...

>>5995063
Wow, that's pretty cool. I had no idea about that, thanks, anon.

>Later, when questioned whether Trinity was the first-ever detonation of an atomic device, the inscrutable Oppenheimer replied, “Yes, in modern times.”
Why has there not been a movie made about this?

>>5995106
>Why has there not been a movie made about this?
Indian movies mostly stay in India

>>5989040
Monsters strike first
NUCLEAR

You know you're a retro gamer when all you need to say is that and end up triggering someone's PTSD from this asshole. Ended so many goddamn runs.

>>5995020
>>5995063

From the Mahabharata...
“Gurkha, flying a swift and powerful vimana [fast aircraft],
hurled a single projectile [rocket]
charged with the power of the Universe [nuclear device].

An incandescent column of smoke and flame,
as bright as ten thousand suns,
rose with all its splendour.

It was an unknown weapon,
an iron thunderbolt,
a gigantic messenger of death,
which reduced to ashes
the entire race of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas.

The corpses were so burned
as to be unrecognizable.

Hair and nails fell out;
Pottery broke without apparent cause,
and the birds turned white.

…After a few hours
all foodstuffs were infected…
…to escape from this fire
the soldiers threw themselves in streams
to wash themselves and their equipment.”

>>5995075
That was the general intent. The desert is suppose to invoke a sense that the region was once very populated but was destroyed either by the Fiends or a conflict the Lufenish had with another group.

>>5990880
Random fa/tg/uy here; as far as the RPG side of it goes, random scifi in fantasy setting goes back to the home games of Dungeons & Dragons' creators. Having an Outdoors Adventure meant just rolling random tables for terrain, monster encounters, and even finding dungeons. Because of its random nature and the intensity of Gygax and Anderson's nerdiness, scifi elements would pop up, too. Like, I swear one of the discriptions of Blackmoor (a setting that predates Original D&D) was "Cavemen and Dinosaura to the south, Lasergun weilding tigermen to the east, medieval Europe to the north." And since the likes of Ultima were basically computerized D&D campaigns, the random scifi came along for the ride (hence why Ultima I had space battles with TIE Fighters and the final boss of Ultima III was just a giant computer).

Pic related was an Adventure from 1980 whose big twist was that the dungeon was actually a crashed UFO.

>>5991125
AD&D Magic was shit because Gygax had a big ass boner for Fighting-Men. The reason wizards universally have shitty attack and defense in all fantasy games is because Gygax hated the idea of Merlin being about to outkill Conan the Barbarian and nerfed them as hard as he could.

>>5996091
Sounds a bit like Wizardry or Might and Magic.

>>5996096
>The reason wizards universally have shitty attack and defense in all fantasy games is because Gygax hated the idea of Merlin being about to outkill Conan the Barbarian and nerfed them as hard as he could.
I always heard this claim and iirc Anderson himself said this in an interview some time ago, but there's too many things that don't add up.
From the fact that Mordenkainen was in fact a batshit powerful wizard to quadratic wizards being already a thing in 2e, far before Monte Cook and the others came in with their actual boner for casters that resulted into the absolute mess that is 3e where martials are outclassed by casters and hybrid at their own martial business.

I mean ok, 1e/2e had wizards being relatively weak until level 10 is a thing, spells a day is indeed a no fun allowed mechanic and stupid even in lore, having to fucking pay not just gold and reagents but also EXP for certain spells is dumb as fuck, but as soon as you get into high level you get complete bullshit like Power Word spells, Time Stop and whatever else that breaks a campaign into tiny little pieces unless you're playing some of the specific antiwizard stuff like Ravenloft.
And in videogames it's even worse since casters also lack most of the restrictions of TT mechanics.

>>5996137
Basically Gygax knew powercreep would make Wizards way too broken early on and just went a bit overboard. It's not like Mordy was like that piece of shit Elminster; he actually had to survive some shit to become the überwizard he was by AD&D.

>>5996147
I think Gygax fundamentally misunderstood where the problem with D&D wizards and casters lies.
By looking at the various restrictions he put on wizards it seems to me he approached the problem on a mathematical basis, like limiting casting to a small number of spells per day, which you also had to prepare beforehand, pay outrageous amounts of resources and also have pretty much zero statistical capabilities outside spellcasting.
The problem is that hardly any of that stops a wizard from fucking petrifying your ass and instakill you in several different ways that also ignore your equipment or stats, on top of that you have bullshit utilities that martials can't even dream of, some of the most busted of being Mordenkainen's&friends own spells, from Tenser's Transformation to Mordenkainen's Sword/disjunction/magnificent mansion.

I think what Gygax failed to understand is that a Wizard will always be better than martials at the end of the day by virtue of their toolkits, and there's no limitations you can put on them that will balance them properly, because the tools themselves are broken, what he should have done is put a stop on silly designs like a wizard being able to conjure a magical flying house, disintegrate anything by touching things or teleport around, and lets not talk about the horrible decision of having a shitload of stackable buffs that was never, ever fixed.
As long as you make casters being able to do literally anything just because you can imagine it you'll never be able to have a balanced system, the brake should be put on the abilities itself rather than how many of them you can use or learn or how much you have to pay to use them.

>>5995469
I never have issues with him these days, but yeah.
Also, getting 4 gas dragons in the temple of chaos on my first playthrough drove me nuts. Kept trying to get through that one floor and kept getting wrecked. Ragequit. Learned about the true power of pro-rings, etc many years later.
Also, sorcerers in the ice cave. AND the fighters, And the ice dragons. All these things still give trouble on playthroughs. It's a testament to the game's design it can still present challenge.

>>5996169
I remember thinking my game was glitches out in the earth cave when I kept crashing into giants every step I took. There were some mean things this game did to kids.

>>5989040
to be fair, his name is warmech, which should let you know you've got trouble on your hands.
I remember seeking out this encounter on my last playthrough. I was doing ok until he used NUCLEAR 3 or 4 times in a row lmao

>>5996169
Kawazu is a D&D nerd, he didn't fuck around when designing enemy batches, he doesn't do to this day either.
One thing I really like about his games is that even though he branched out from his D&D roots to create his own systems, he's one of the few designers who still makes some really old school D&D stuff, like having Dragons being actual big dick foes like they're supposed to be instead of jobbers.
The part where you can choose to negotiate with Gwayne in RS3 and fight against Byunei up in the air on top of Gwayne, controlling both Gwayne and your main character AND having combination attacks is extremely hype.

>>5996189
I eventually figured out that the hall of giants was a defined area, but I had a similar experience until I did.
Now it's a preferred grinding area. After training up for 15-30 minutes there, I move on over to where the zombulls spawn at the tip of the cape to push it further. This makes the earth cave easier to pace in without running out of potions.

>>5996197
So that's why encounters in FF1 can feel exactly like a DM fucking with you.

>>5996212
Kawazu is a gigagrognard, he played AD&D nonstop together with various other games like Avalon Hill's wargames and actually translated them for his parties of fellow japanese neckbeards.
He was the one in charge of designing the entire battle system/planning for FF1 so you bet he wanted to fuck around with people, his other games are the very same.

>>5990938
>>5995075
it's all very evocative. it conjures up a rich history in which there were empires with advanced technology, with the current swords & sorcery world living in its ruins. I can picture Warmech being this experimental super-weapon design, still functional ages later.

>>5990880
indeed

>>5995570
I've heard of this before, but hadn't read the exact verse. this really does sound like nuclear weapons, it even describes the effects of radiation.

>>5996227
WarMECH seems either a experimental machine or one of MANY said machines that just keeps on keeping on. Maybe in part due to having a nuclear power source, who knows. I always figured it nuclear attack was it exposing its power source to the party. Also, as for the verse, look up some of the descriptions of the weapons in that war. Uncanny in the similitude to what we have today...or worse. The whole 18 days it was fraught was basically a back and forth between the two sides going to the gods and asking for bigger sticks to hit each other with.

>>5994423
What a madman. That was an interesting read, cheers for posting it.

>>5995065
No, that's not it. If you take the time to get the spell to level 16 you'll find that it's still pitifully weak and disappointing, and that this madman intended it to be a disappointment as a sort of life lesson that things aren't always going to work out the way you'd hoped.

>>5996250
right, it could be a one-off experiment, or a breed of super-weapons that the ancients used to unleash havoc on each other.
and it does sound uncanny. it makes you wonder how much we really know about our own history.

>>5996250
Warmech appears in the SaGa games, where there's also an even more powerful Warmech MK2 model so it's definitely one of many machines if you want to read deeper into the SaGa lore and how the multiverse works in there, especially if you consider Arsenal/Last Defense System.

>>5996269
Machine based weapons/enemies are usually on the harder side of things in rpg's on both sides of the big pond. As >>5996270 pointed out, WM shows up there as the guardian of the reactor on the 16th floor in SaGa 1 and as the last major encounter to the...well, "living" dungeon in SaGa 2. Funny in that in all of the first 3 SaGa's you can use a Nuke as a weapon against your enemies.

>>5996270
I wasn't sure how to characterize WarMECH, but this makes sense. he looks like something that could be mass-produced if you had the resources.

>>5989518
that is one of my favorite sprites, up there with Lich. it's built like a tank, but also looks agile, and has a coherent design. and yes, he's cute, which belies the fact that he's equipped for Ragnarok.

>>5996168
The thing is, it only really becomes a problem when Wizards are a common enemy that keeps turning up in random encounters. You, the player, have limits to your spellcasting, but for NPC enemies, they're generated and deleted before and after encounters, so they show up with their full amount of spells and have no reason to hold back because from their perspective, you're their final goal to kill.

I think from a tabletop perspective, it's better to consider that enemies might not show up to fights at full power, will generally value self-preservation over a suicide charge that has a high chance of ending up with their death, and the more dangerous someone is, the more rare it is to encounter them. Of course, that doesn't make for a fun or interesting campaign, so DMs are kind of forced to throw powerful enemies at the characters, or if they're really good, create the illusion of the players fighting powerful foes.

>>5996324
Lich is a badass sprite. The sprite for it was so intimidating the first time seeing it because of how big it is.

>>5996432
Also the Earth Cave music is soooo fucking good

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R09JruRCEM

>>5990880
Final Fantasy XIV is the only modern game that does it, I think.

>>5996468
The game had some fantastic music for its day.
I prefer the Origins version myself. The fully-orchestrated sound it pretty damn incredible considering the source material 8-bit "chip tune".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIOBuJiuymw
This song as the theme for the Sea Shrine really evoked an otherworldly and ancient place, cold and dark.

The Gurgu Volcano these is of course also fantastic. The FFIX remix -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH8XDAox3WQ

What the hell is Uematsu doing these days?

>>5996480
A forced SJW Nier Shittrannyda crossover doesn't count as a based ancient magitech empire of white men, Anon.

>>5996348
>>5996197
>>5996168
>>5996137
>>5996091
>>5995570
These are genuinely good posts that remind me of why I keep reading this site. I'm here for old vidya but I'm learning about ancient Hindu scripture and the philosophy behind balance.


>>5996540
Not you.

>>5996518
origins music is grossly inferior. the orchestrated versions are overdone, and lack the soul of the 8bit original.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdRuaE4oOBw
also, note how you can see the space station within the orb.

>>5996731
>enhanced tone, variance, complexity
>lacks the soul
Don't. Just don't.

>>5996548
It gets better and if anything is a warning why though war is sometimes a actual need, it too needs moderation.

>>5996731
It was argued in a thread not too long ago that the object hanging around the castle is an interpretation of the airship. But, yeah, makes more sense in being the Sky Fortress.

>>5996740
that's all just frills and frivolity. don't get me wrong, the origins versions aren't bad, they're competent and pleasant enough, but they're ultimately shallow. the original 8bit has real nigga funk & soul that is only enhanced by its relative simplicity.
speaking of which, I can't post ff1 music without Matoya's theme!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cydRVuK8OoM

>>5996896
>makes more sense in being the Sky Fortress.
definitely.

>>5996905
Playing a Final Fantasy game is like listening to a concert/album while playing an rpg on the side, IMO.
The music was always a huge part of the series.

Speaking of hi-tech stuff in fantasy RPGs, was there ever an explanation or lore hinted at for the Killing Machines in Dragon Warrior? I just recall them kind of showing up without any real hint of why a robot was wandering around a cave in what seemed like a strictly sword & sorcery RPG. I assume it was just a nod to the concept as a whole, since it clearly dates back to the 70s, at least, but there are a lot of Dragon Quest games I haven't played, so maybe there's been an explanation at some point and I missed it.

>>5996091
>big twist was that the dungeon was actually a crashed UFO
Fucking brilliant. I read a comic book not too long ago about some knights or something who unknowingly explore a crashed UFO. Lake of Fire, I think it was? Pretty cool.

>>5996250
>>5996269
I always assumed the WarMECH was one of an entire army that was designed to be deployed from the flying castle in orbit, and the one you fight just happens to be the only one left still functioning in the entire station. The sentry/soldier enemies you fight seem to be more suited for security, while the name WarMECH indicates a more aggressive purpose than just protection. I definitely agree with the nuclear power source, though; if they had access to a more advanced tech than nuclear, they probably would have used it for both power source and weaponry, since the radiation issue makes nuclear less than ideal.

>>5994237
Have you tried the PC-Engine CD game?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obzYRC9rTp8

>>5990880
Great post - I've lost count of the amount of times I've had that 'oh look it's Laputa influenced' feeling while playing a game. And FBC is an amazing watch, good shout.

>>5997008
Funny you mention that. OmegaWeapon Mk. XII from (go ahead /vr/, flip your shit) FF XII was designed for that sole purpose. In fact, thats Omega Weapons back story. It originated in 5 and wandered the Void finding the ultimate dragon.

>>5989040
get out of my fucking country

>>5996480
Zelda: Breath of the Wild?

tbf the tech aspect seemed to be completely ignored by the modern era in-game, it would have been cool to see anyone using sheikah tech beyond Link or that scientist that sells weapons to you.

Speaking of the portrayl of technology in games it really blows my mind just how rare the idea of computers and religion is. Megaten's whole concept, the idea of technology being the means by which humans can interact with the ancients beings of old, feels like such a novel concept but one I really can't recall in any other media. A lot of things carry a moral of never mixing the natural with technology, maybe that's why its so interesting when it is done.

>>5998658
Breath of the Wild isn't /vr/.

>>5998658
>Breath of the Wild
Not to get too non-/vr/, but I remember starting that game completely blind and not knowing anything about the plot becuase I stayed away from spoilers and trailers for like 2 years, and when I first saw the devine bird beast in the distance at the start of the game, I had this thought that it was going to be some kind of flying castle/Laputa thing that had survived from before the disaster and was full of hi-tech stuff. I guess I was kind of right, but the actuality of it was far less intruiging.

>>5998745
Its a heavy theme. Most leads to post apocolyptica of some kind usually from technology blowing the world to a very primitively state and one or two groups trying to pic it back up again.

>>5998967
You can mention post-2000s games if it pertains to an overall retro topic and is only a small part of the discussion.

In might and magic the devils were actually aliens and it was possible to get energy pistols and rifles in some games.

>>5989040
Is this game worth playing at all

>>5999759
I prefer the gba port but the NES version has a more d&d 1e feel to it

>>5999769
gba bort? intradstimg

>>5999759
Play an original version raw if you want the true feel, GBA version if you're looking for a quick run. The NES version requires a certain mindset that can be considered a turn off to modern players, in that you're expected to explore and keep notes, mental or written, of the location of certain enemies and what their capabilities are.

If you really like the NES version, try playing a patched version that fixes bugs and adds quality of life things like sprint. It will maintain the original feel but drastically reduce the time it takes to do things.

>>5999879
Is there a patch that allows you to buy potions by the dozen at once instead of just one at a time?

>>5999894
Yes! Use the improved vanilla settings here: http://finalfantasyrandomizer.com/Home/Randomize?s=F840AB3C&f=AAAAAAAAAAAAAI!fPAKKPPe!AeK!!!AAAAAB

>>5999902
I've been thinking about replaying FF NES, since I didn't use a redmage or blackbelt in my first playthrough... Is BB/BB/RM/RM a good party? or maybe BB/BB/RM/WM?

>>6000306
or maybe Fi/RM/BB/WM?

>>6000306
>>6000310
Kill yourself

>>6000306
>>6000310
Most parties consist of a high damage physical character like the BB, FI, or TH, and various combinations of support mages. In reality, so long as you have any of the three above, you're good. RM can also handle a similar slot, as can a BM once he learns SABR.

BB is on the extreme end of high physical damage, he starts off very weak and doesn't really get usable until like level 8-12, at which point you uneqiup all of his items and use his fists. At level 24, he becomes on par with a fighter equipped with weapons, and at 36 he completely surpasses an endgame fighter due to his number of attacks and raw damage. Past that, he's likely to one shot most bosses.

Fighter is more stable, stronger early game and weaker end game. Thief is generally weak until he becomes a ninja, at which time he becomes on par with a Fighter, and in patched games can use TMPR, a damage buff, which give him some support function as well. RM starts strong and can still be strong with buffs, but is generally the weakest of the physical attackers, although he can still fill the role if you need someone to.

BM and WM both exist mostly in a support capacity outside of niche strategies, BM is great for wiping out large packs of enemies with magic that hits everyone and WM can hold more charges of cure, life, and exit. BM does poorly against bosses though since their HP is so high, and is generally only used to buff other targets or chip away with his remaining spell charges.

The neat thing about your team composition is that every team can beat the game, but it changes how you approach encounters and how fast your party comes online. Generally, mages peak earlier than fighters.

>>5990880
It was big in 70's Japan too

The 70's are why you see Dogus as ayylmaos in everything, like Darkstalkers and Pokemon gen 3, BotW, Digimon etc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuArZiepkeE

>>5993068
>Nadia

That's why I loved Super Robot Wars X so much, Nadia in SRW was amazing. Especially with Mashin Hero Wataru and Dunbine. I need to play the old Cybaster SRW games.

>>5996091
I'm a 90's kid and I think the reason I love this trope was because of Beast Wars, where the writers were allowed to write almost anything so we got a lot of scifi tropes but especially ancient aliens. Your post reminded me of BW because of the twist that they were on prehistoric earth. The Vok were ancient aliens too.

Then there was Power Rangers Zeo which had an ancient alien civilization technology theme like a giant pyramid Zord, Atlantis, Stargate and all the 90's games people mentioned. Why is this so cool?

>>5999879
Where does one find a patched/fixed version of a FF1 rom?

>>6000520
romhacking.net

>>6000520
this
>>6000538

Or stick a normal FF1 ROM in this site, it'll spit out one you can use. >>5999902 No Patch software needed.

>>6000349
Frankly the BB/Master surpasses a fighter before 36 in damage. 30 is definitely the "oh shit" moment.

A master at 30 can be doing 1000+ or even 2000+ dmg each round if they are using fists.

I played the Japanese version so I didn't have as easy access to patches, but aside from being able to cast TMPR and HASTE thief/ninja felt pretty lame. I guess they are a good second slot, since they can equip some armor. But I would have them replace a Black Mage if anything, not a BB/Fighter.

I can't imagine Fighter+Thief+Monk+White Mage being any fun at all early game though. Sounds like a grand chore. 3 Monks and a WM also sounds unpleasant, but at least you'll destroy bosses, as well as absolutely squash literally anything later on.

I know speedruns usually use 2 fighters 2 red mages.
In fact, one of the more common comps in terms of ease of game (though not necessarily speed) is two fighters + WM + BM/RM.

4 Fighters is also "viable", since they can class upgrade and learn healing spells. Fighters are generally tanky enough to handle most anything, but it'll be slow later on.

In fact i don't recommend 4 physical jobs for one reason: random encounters. It's not as though you'll die, especially later on, but it takes forever to kill the 8 or 10 shit monsters they throw at you, at at time, in later dungeons. If you don't have magic to cast you can kill, at most, 4 a turn depending on how many monks you have.

Job choice isn't so much about how fast your party comes online, but when you want to have an easy time. Do you want an easier early game? Fighters and red mages. Cake walk late game in exchange for severely painful early? 3 monks and a white mage to spam heal spells. Want an easy, but very slow, game all the time? 4 fighters (but be ready to farm gil).

>>6000586
That's pretty much all correct. The Thief/Ninja is usually weaker than any other physical fighter, especially early on, and even later, they peak when they grab a katana faster than the Knight gets an Excalibur. The BB is highly dependent on enemy absorb because of his number of hits, so certain enemies will be weaker to him and others stronger -- the Knight and Ninja have an easier time going through defenses because they have stronger but less hits, but when the BB starts to pass them, he overtakes them very quickly. Level 36 is significant though because that's when they get 8 attacks base, increased to 16 with FAST.

TMPR is broken in the unpatched game, but because of the above statement, if it did work, the BB would benefit the most from it. I believe the Power Gauntlet however works fine, so if you find one of those, have the BB use it in battle a few times and he will obliterate anything before him.

Two Fighters/Two Red Mages is a great combo for anyone, it's such a foolproof party that gives you strong physical attacks so you're not reliant on spell charges while still giving you access to some of the best magic -- LIFE, EXIT, FAST, and I think WARP. Even if you're not clearing screens with their magic later on, you've got all the support you need to delve deep into a lot of dungeons, just in case something with death touch shows up. It was the party I originally used when I first played FF1, probably when I was 5 or 6. I like the 8BT party the best though, just because it's what I used when I had each of my friends pick a class and roll with it.

One thing about FF1 is that the game will generally be over around the upper 20s or early 30s for level, but the further you go, the easier time you'll have. A level 50 Black Belt is literally a One Punch Man, though he rarely gets to that point without excessive grinding. The Knight and the Ninja will generally be just as useful as a Master around those levels.

>>6000306
Just go all BBs for a fun playthrough

>>5992181
That is ultimate nightmare fuel.

>>5997008
In DQ7 there is an explanation for them existing, well, at least in that world. As for the rest, no, there is no explanation.

>>6000306
>>6000608
I completed a run with Fi/RM/BB/WM and I can confirm it's effective. in fact, it's one of the best parties that uses only 1 of each class. other possibilities are Fi/RM/WM/BM (the magic users party) or Fi/Th/BB/WM.

party combinations give you many possibilities. unless you're going for a specific challenge run, you'll always want a Fighter in row 1 as a tank. second fighter, redmage or thief works in row 2, while bb/wm/bm should stay in the lower ranks due to their low defense. this is because of how monster attacks are distributed across ranks:

1: 4/8 or 50%
2: 2/8 or 25%
3&4: 1/8 or 12.5% each

if you want to be completely OP, your party should be 2 Fighters, a black belt, and either Red Mage or White Mage. I wouldn't go over 2 fighters, a blackbelt is a better investment at that point. it's also important to have magic, you're seriously handicapped without it, and the class change comes fairly late in the game. while nuking enemies with BMs is fun, I wouldn't use one without a WM or RM as a complement. potions don't quite fill the gap of cure spells, and they don't come close to full party HEALs. HEAL and HARM spells are exclusive to the WM, which offer alot of utility. while you can battle undead with fire spells, harm works even better. without any magic, undead enemies will be a serious pain, so while the BALLS TO THE WALLS meme is funny, I can't recommend it.

Thief is pretty much nerfed until the class change, his one saving grace is that he has enough defense to be in rank 2. Ninjas are very good, can equip almost anything, offer low-level black magic, and are ideal for wielding the Masamune. however, you have to put up with the Thief to get this payoff.

cont.

>>6001240
RM is the jack of all trades: a decent fighter who can use both kinds of magic. however, his magic is limited compared to the specialists; he gets less spell charges, and can't access all spells, with level 8 entirely out of reach. RM leans more towards black magic, the class upgrade gives him fir3/ice3/lit3, with only the insta-kills and NUKE off-limits; meanwhile his white magic doesn't include any HEAL or HARM spells, and of course no FADE/HOLY. for this reason, RM is better at replacing BM than WM. in fact, WM should always be included in a balanced party.
RMs tend to be strong early on, but plateau later in the game. by endgame, they're best for using spell-casting items.

that's all for now. party dynamics in ff1 is definitely something I've analyzed.

>>6001262
and I meant to say BALLS TO THE WALL, pardon my typo.

>>5989106
I've been thinking about replaying Legends recently. I played so much of 2 as a kid.

>>6001240
addendum to this

>parties that uses only 1 of each class
>Fi/Th/BB/WM
just realized this would make for a fairly rough early game, although it would be decent later. the default party is Fi/Th/BB/RM, which works, since the RM will help carry you through the early game.
there's also the beginner party, Fi/BB/WM/BM. this is the most balanced of all, so balanced that it may not be interesting.
the magic users party I mentioned, Fi/RM/WM/BM is great if you're into magic, any more magic than that would be unbalanced.
also, BB/Monk can serve in the second rank, at least more effectively than WM/BM who should always be in the back. however, putting BB in third rank is ideal.

>while nuking enemies with BMs is fun, I wouldn't use one without a WM or RM as a complement.
just to clarify, BMs are best balanced with a WM. RMs can focus on CUREs and buffs, but they're better at black magic for reasons stated above.

>if you want to be completely OP
there's a few possibilities here.
Fi/Fi/BB/RM or WM (as I mentioned)
Fi/Fi/RM/RM or WM
Fi/Fi/WM/BM
with 2 fighters and balanced magic, you'll be able to steamroll.

>>6001417
2 Fighters isn't good due to their damage, which is ok later on, but more so for their tankiness and ability to heal (even if it's just using healing helm or the staff)

I can't imagine playing the game without a black belt. The reliability of killing at least one monster a turn is really needed in that game given how much random encounters there are.

>>6001482
Fighters require a lot of money to fund their new equipment, multiple times through the game. A fighter/black belt duo can mitigate some of those costs so you can spend more money on spells for your mages and piles of potions.

>>5999902
There seems to be something wrong with this randomizer, I kept it on all vanilla settings but I still have cheaper shop prices and greater XP from battles.

Example: I walk into the white magic shop and all the spells cost 67gp when they should be 100gp?

>>6002302
Hm, might need to change it manually. The shop prices are usually randomized from 66-150% of normal, and I think the EXP might be adjusted upwards by a static amount, though I thought improved vanilla set them back to their defaults.

If you can't adjust it manually, a normal, unpatched ROM is fine too for the original experience, the bonus exp is weighted for a player that runs from most encounters and a 0.5x encounter rate, which cuts down on time but isn't really vanilla. It shaves off quite a bit of time on the game in order to reduce matches from around 2 hours to 1-1.5 since it cuts down on the short level grind players usually do.

>>6001482
BB/Monk is great as artillery. the only reason to sacrifice him is if you want to maximize your tanks and/or magic, and even then there's ways of working him in.

>>6001793
true, BBs are low maintenance (unlike mages and fighters) and help lower costs.
if you use 2 fighters, I'd suggest equipping the second with hand-me-downs.

of course, you may not want to optimize your party, since it makes the game easier. not using 2 fighters, or using a Thief instead of BB are effective ways to increase the challenge.

>>6001267
It's actually BALS TO THE WALL due to the 4 character limit.

So I'm playing through FF again with a party of Fighter/Redmage/Blackbelt/Whitemage, and I just beat the vampire and got the Rod and all I can say right now is...holy shit this game is a lot easier without the whitemage having to constantly babysit the thief. The redmage kicks ass, and the blackbelt is also shaping up quite nicely. I do believe this may be the perfect party. Why oh why did I ever pick Thief on a first playthrough?

>>6003646
>Fighter/Redmage/Blackbelt/Whitemage
very good choice, this is the party I gave my seal of approval to. it's balanced and interesting without being OP.

>Why oh why did I ever pick Thief on a first playthrough?
to punish yourself, of course. the Ninja is good, but imo he's not worth the wait, unless you want a more difficult playthrough.

>>6003646
Just remember that at some point the Black Belt will do more damage with bare hands than with weapons, I think around level 10. Then he becomes cheap as fuck to maintain.

>>6003978
Yeah I took off the nunchaku when he hit level 8 and I've just been using bare fists since then.

He's clearly a human

>>6003646
>SLUT
I just want to remind you, the white mage is a man in the NES version.

>>6004236
I have my own headcanon for WM/WW.

>>6004236
Not a single person has ever thought that.

>>6004236
no, the white mage is a girl, anything else is a lie.

>>6004276
I always saw the White Wizard as some sort of viking druid priest thing, I mean, just look at this heavy brow and strong chin. These four pixels obviously paint him as male.

>>6004402
And the shoulders, too. No female has shoulders that broad, not even my last girlfriend, and she was a complete amazon.

>>6004402
No, that's clearly a redheaded Jennifer Connelly type.
But in all seriousness, on my TV as a kid it didn't look so defined and I simply saw WW as a woman with long red hair, probably precisely because I had already thought of WM as a girl. It was the same with everyone I knew; something about WW was a little off but since we already decided WM was a girl we had to accept that WW was a woman.

>>6004402
I read somewhere that the white mage's design is based on some random sect of female Buddhist monks, who all wear white robes with that red triangle pattern. This might be bullshit, but if it's true it confirms the WM as female

>>6004236

>>6004402
this, no fucking way WM is a woman in FF1

>>6004516
WM is a girl but WW is a man

Note for future playthroughs: Do NOT go into the ice cave without the Life and Exit spells, because wow.

>>6004521
he is just a twink that turn into a chad

>>6005795
No she's an MTF and the black mage is an FTM.

>>6004236
Sir, are you implying a man can't be a slut?

>>6004516
>>6005795
>>6006185
>>6006567
My white mage is a qt trans girl who helps her straight male friends relieve their stress ~,~

>>6006648
Sodomy is a mortal sin, Anon.

>>6006648
Nothing straight about sex with a boy, even one pretending to be a girl.

>>6007108
So? What's your lame-ass god going to do about it?

>>6007148
Liking traps isn't gay anon...

>>5990114
>>5990180

this thread sure took a hard left.

>>5990114
I want to go back, bros...

I just watched Laputa last night and yes I can totally see where FF drew a lot of inspiration from it. The Floater (aka Levistone) is a pretty blatant nod to Shido's necklace, as well as the robot falling from the sky.

>>5990114
Anyone have the Breath of Fire enemy poster? It was very much like this one, shipped with the game.

>>6007310
>liking males isn't gay
Oh, go cast RUB on yourself.

>>6007849
>The Floater

EXACT copy of the main crystal that kept the whole structure aloft.

>>6008623
Oh wow, it actually is. I'm gobsmacked.

The big etherium crystal probably inspired quantum refractors in Megaman Legends, too.

>>6007918

>>6008824
and the back

>>5991573

Based

Next playthough is gonna be a duo. KEN the Monk and CHAD the Red Mage.

>>5995020
>I really don't wanna sound like a boomer

Do you know where you are?

>>5994423
>It was supposed to be Square's last role playing game or something, hence FINAL
I thought they denied this as just a myth.

>>6009831
A shame to let the truth get in the way of a good story

>>6008756

>>6009953

>>6004402

>Viking druid priest thing

So Varg Vikernes

>>6010090

>>6010373
>Go to church to revive one of your characters
>Huwhite Wizard burns it down

>>5990114

>>6008756
The only thing it does not do is spin and make that weird noise...and no, not >>6009953 that one.

>>5991573

>>5990180
Not entirely. Pardon the tangent from /vr/, but my friend and I both played Breath of the Wild when it came out without having seen ANYTHING about the game. We were both sick of everything being spoiled and overhyped by internet media before games even came out, so we both just abstained from every bit of promotional material after the first teaser dropped. I literally didn't even know what the plot or main villain of the game was when I started it up. We both played the game and were texting each other screenshots of all the cool shit we were finding. I ran into one of the huge flying dragons along the north edge of the map near the volcano and it scared the shit out of me. Game had plenty of flaws, but the fact that all of it was such an untainted experience really made it a lot of fun. I don't play many modern games anymore, but going in blind always makes it better.

On a more /vr/ note, I played Grandia on PS1 pretty blind because I had no idea the game even existed until it was recommended to me a few years back. Had a blast with it. Stumbling into some of the super hard bonus dungeons and bosses was exhilerating. The whole game, I was wondering if and when I would get an airship because I love airships and that pretty much always happens in JRPGs, but it never did and I had no issue with it because letting the game unfold at its own pace let me realize it didn't need an airship, and it would have honestly lowered the stakes and made a lot of the game less impactful. But if I had decided to just google "Grandia when get airship" I probably would have been very disappointed.

Also recently played Chrono Cross MOSTLY blind, and it really made me like the game early on. Of course, it all unraveled during the latter half which is mostly filler and fetch quests and some really contrived plot dumps, but whatever. I loved having that early excitement when I honestly had no idea what the game held next, regardless of what popular opinion was.

What level do you recommend for fighting Chaos? Is 25-ish okay?

>>5989054
dragon quest 1 had something similar with a hidden dragon hiding a treasure. you usually weren't ready for a dragon at that point.

>>5990880
Future Boy Conan was actually an American early science pulp fiction:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Incredible_Tide

>>5996137
2e was rock paper scissors.
As powerful as wizards go there was always one thing that trumped someone who could destroy whole cities with words: a good sneak attack

>>5998745
temple os...

>>6014757
You mean the green dragon who guards the princess?

>>6014802
nope. sorry, i think it was actually an axe knight. he always appears on a particular square and if you search that spot you find something. dragon quest has a lot of buried treasure which i always thought was an awesome thing that rpgs stopped doing.

More JRPGs that have you pick classes at character creaton that you stick with for the entire game? FF1 has this very nice feel when you assemble a party from the defined classes.

>>6014808
Oh yeah, the axe knight who guards Edrick's armor. Yeah that was nifty, Dragon Quest 1 was a fun game.

I beat Chaos last night ^~^ He wasn't too much of a problem, my master's fists made short work of him.