/vr/ - Retro Games

>>5980330
It hasn't improved in the two decades since then. A proper wrestling game would probably involve constant inputs and button mashing to represent the leveraging and feats of strength.

>>5980438
FPW actually does kind of dip into this.

Also in WWF WarZone you can do button inputs to do moves without having to tie up first. Honestly I like that better, even if it does kind of create fighting game-like movelists.

>>5980330
It's funny that you used Smackdown as an example. Because originally the early Yuke's games indeed used a very different system. NJPW: Toukon Retsuden 1 - 4 had buttons assigned to specific sets of moves that also functioned somehow like a rock/paper/scissor countering system. One button (+ direction) was for Kicks/Punches, one to initiate Submission moves and another one for power moves
>Punch counters Power Moves
>Power Moves counter Submission Holds
>Submission Holds counter Punches
So no grappling was necessary

Later they used the Toukon Retsuden engine for budget titles (Simple 1500 Series Vol. 22: The Pro Wrestling and Simple 1500 Series Vol. 52: The Pro Wrestling 2) and ditched the Rock/Paper/Scissor system for the grappling system. And again later they used that gameplaywise already castrated engine and turned it into Smackdown with an even more toned down controlling scheme but pimped graphics.

Since then Yuke's games always had such grappling systems. Either like Day of Reckoning or Wrestle Kingdom (that was using the same engine) with a quick and strong grapple or that usual crap of the WWE games.

I personally prefer such grappling systems only when they're down right. IMO the best wrestling game up until the 5th generation was AJPW King's Soul (PS1) which didn't have just one (like Smackdown) or two different grapples like later the DoR games but rather 6 per wrestler (+ 6 back grapples).
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/ps/575248-zen-nippon-pro-wrestling-ouja-no-tamashii/faqs/6432
And from each of these 6 Grapples you could do 9 moves at max. so max. 54 front grappling moves per wrestler (not even counting the back grapple moves or simple strikes/kicks) which resulted in rather long move lists. But not all wresters used all slots of course. And the mentioned collar-elbow tie-up was only the weakest default grapple. All the others were specific ones like a brainbuster set-up grapple or a power bomb, DDT, Chokeslam one etc. with different moves

>>5980878
That isn't SmackDown, that's WWF No Mercy. AKI engine game.

>>5980886
That's one of the few games I never played. And I played almost anything of that genre (up until the PS2 since the genre is dead since the 7th generation). But I never had a Nintendo console back then. I know that some praise the gameplay of No Mercy (or overall the AKI games). Some also compared the Day of Reckoning gameplay to No Mercy. But quite frankly if that's how No Mercy played then it can't be that good after all. I really tried getting into DoR2, but wasn't that thrilled. I even gave up on the Yuke's games completely after at least giving it one last try with Wrestle Kingdom (which also used the DoR engine) and haven't touched a single one of their games since.

>>5980330
who cares? it was 1999, and it worked, and it was fun. Why are you complaining about it 20 years later?

>>5981859
Because everyone wants another wrestling game that plays this way.

>>5980330
WWE also isn't how wrestling works. I hate to break it to you but it's fake. Why don't you just be happy that something plays well rather than wanting it to be true to "reality".

>>5982491
>I hate to break it to you but it's fake.
SPOILER THAT SHIT, MAN!

>>5980330
You don’t like doing strong grapples to perform the Sweet Chin Music, you mean? I think I get what you’re saying. Kinda weird to grapple and then do a stunner, but I think it’s alright. Fighting inputs didn’t go over well with War Zone

American wrestlers on N64 are fucking garbage and you only like it for nostalgia and for the celebrity licenses. Suck it burgers.

>>5983398
Why are Eurobros always such salty lads?
We don’t have anything against you. Let’s be friends.

>>5983405
Nope just saying it how it is. Fighter's Destiny is a better wrestler than that and it's also trash.

>>5982491
>fake
Rigged and loosely choreographed, sure, but that shit is legitimately brutal. Rey Mysterio killed a dude who twisted his neck in the wrong direction during his signature flying scissors.

>>5983405
The poster you quoted sounds more of a puroresu mark rather than an Euro poster.

I love No Mercy so much it hurts. I hate 2019.

>>5980330
It works just fine in the context of a video game.

>>5983480
The rope killed him, not the move. He landed on the rope in a way that essentially decapitated him inside his skin.

>>5980878
A rock/paper/scissors based game somewhere between the simulation based gameplay of Toukon Retsuden & the faster paced arcade style gameplay of Giant Gram would have been perfect

>>5980330
Fire pro wrestling returns is what you want OP.

>>5980330
The best wrestling games are made by THQ for the N64.

>>5984204
I have a different problem with the rock/paper/scissor system of Toukon Retsuden. Since it doesn't use grapples, all the moves have to fit inside the categories of either strike/kick, submission and power move, that's why when standing up facing front you can only do two moves of each category. i.e. a power move with either the circle button or direction + circle (multiple directions like later in smackdown weren't used back then), which isn't very much. And because of that Toukon Retsuden heavily relies on groggy states, wich I absolutely hate. Yeah, most wrestling games have said groggy states, but usually only one state. But to get a decent movelist per wrestler Toukon Retsuden used two groggy states - (normal), dazed and dizzy and additionally certain moves and move combos which can only be executed when the crowd cheers your wrestler (the equivalent to a finisher or finishing sequence). But this means you can't execute all the moves anytime and you have to beat your opponent into the various groggy states to execute certain moves, wich is rather cumbersome. Additionally this partially looks very silly seeing the wrestlers swinging back and forth when stunned for a while transitioning through the groggy states.

One such state is enough and even this looks ridiculous most of the time (All Star Pro Wrestling from Squaresoft did this better, but this isn't considered retro yet), but it's a necessity in most games.
Another example is the PS1 game AJPW Women: Legend of Queens (Zen Nihon Joshi Pro Wrestling: Joou Densetsu: Yume no Taikousen). This game has outstanding animations for a PS1 game, but just like Toukon Retsuden it also relies on said groggy states (but not as severe as Toukon Retsuden since it uses all directions on the pad), which always looks rather off-putting to me.

>>5984464
So I prefer the grappling system of most games, especially when used as excessively as AJPW: King's Souls (or King of Colosseum (which also had specific MMA grapples and positions) with around 12 different (front + back) grapples per wrestler with max. 5+6 moves per grapple with max. 72 individual grappling moves per wrestler), since the alternatives are worse. And with alternatives I mean the Toukon Retsuden system or IMO even worse the arcady button combos like regular fighting games in games like Zen Nihon ProWres featuring Virtua/Giant Gram (still the best of the bunch with this controlling scheme), WWE Warzone/Attitude, the ECW games or even the really stupid WWF WrestleMania: The Arcade Game and WWF: In Your House (that look and play like a really bad Mortal Kombat clone).