/vr/ - Retro Games

of course not

>>5950687
what about without harris/kleboid?

>>5950687
This. What an idiotic question. Would it have been worse or better? That's something that could be mused upon. Would it be different??? Obviously.

What was really clever about doom was its excellent optimization enabling to run smoothly on literal toasters at the time. So it probably would have existed but with a fraction of the playerbase.

Yes, it would be the exact same thing without the coding wiz.

Hard to say

>>5950691
Imagine how small a brain those people must've had for blaming a 5 year old game (at the time) for 2 bullied kids shooting up a school.

>>5950683
it would have never been made. Carmack was a brilliant programmer and really knew how to squeeze every cycle out a simple 33mhz 32-bit Intel, the raytracing techniques he pulled off were mindboggling at the time

No, dumbass

Yes, numb nuts

>>5950683
Without Carmack, Doom would have been a one-screen-at-a-time platformer because nobody had invented smooth 2D scrolling yet, much less a decent psuedo-3D engine.

>>5950986
>invented smooth 2D scrolling yet
well, on IBM-compatible hardware that is

Doom would have been the same, or even better, without Romero.

Which Carmack, John or Adrian?

>would doom exist without carmack
:bigthink:

>>5950986
>nobody had invented smooth 2D scrolling yet
What do you mean by this?

>>5950986
>nobody had invented smooth 2D scrolling yet
Super Mario Bros came out in the 80s...

He has cute hair.

>>5951091
>>5951083

>>5950992

>>5950683
What monitor is that?

>>5951167
Possibly an Apple II monitor Carmack stole.

>>5951045
The one with the hair

>>5950683
Me in the back

>>5950683
Yes. Even John Carmack stated that doom would have been the same without him in an interview.

More importantly, would it have been the same without Steve Jobs?

>>5950683
No.

>>5950691
What about my dick in your mom?

>>5951045
Both, actually, considering how Adrian did the overwhelming majority of the graphical work, and his edgelord persona setting a lot of the tone.

There'd still be an impressive shooter, but it would have been so very different.

>>5951645
Where is my dick going to go then?

>>5951091
>>5951083
On home computers at the time. You couldn't just scroll screens smoothly with them because they didn't have the power to redraw everything quickly.

John Carmack came up with an idea for how to do it on weak machines like that, make the computer only redraw pixels which actually change; instead of redrawing the blue sky pixels to the same blue color, the rendering leaves them alone for now, and only redraws the white clouds as you move. It would also store a set of background tiles in memory, as well as level tiles, so you could have a line of mountains in the background, and the ground the character walks on, and the necessary tiles are stored in an offscreen buffer and recalled from there repeatedly, rather than redrawn constantly even though they aren't changing.
This also included stuff like paralax scrolling.
At the time this was a big deal, and the guys actually banged together a playable replica of the first couple of levels of Super Mario Bros. 3, which they sent as a demo to Nintendo, offering to do a full PC port for them. Nintendo wasn't interested, so iD used it for their own games.
Carmack refused to patent the idea on ideological grounds, so the method would see use by other developers soon enough.

>>5951678
The three dimensional world (rendered with two dimensional 'visplanes') in Doom, was different technology, but a similar approach. John Romero had drawn up a structure in an early test map (a pillar with a set of concentric octagonal descending stairs around it), which made the initial renderer lose its shit, meaning Carmack had to figure something out.
His eventual solution was to use Binary Space Partitioning (BSP), an existing concept which until then hadn't ever been applied to consumer grade software.
The gist of it is that when you make a map for Doom, you then also generate a BSP Tree, with nodes and everything, and the BSP Tree makes sure that only visplanes which would actually be visible from your perspective are rendered, rather than your CPU having to waste time drawing visplanes you can't even see.

What this means ultimately is that you could have an action game with a texture mapped 3D world in 1993, that was fast, on typical home computers, something only achievable with smart optimizing such as BSP, or portals.

this is cool

Someone else could have achieved something similar for sure, Ken Silverman wasn't far away in the tech race, and Ultima Underworld had the texture mapped 3D part down (without the speed and fun gameplay), but Doom existed because a bunch of the right people, including a tech genius, got together at the right time, and did the best job.

Hey guys do you think the Elder Scrolls would be the same without Todd Howard??? And what about Super Mario without Miyamoto??

The fact that so many people here don't understand to not feed the trolls is the worst part of this board.

>>5951825
It's literally autism.

>>5950683
>>5950986
Why is Carmack so smug bros

No

>>5951841
Because I he earned it.

>>5950683
This guy is such an arrogant prick

>>5952930
This. Carmack was nothing but a programmer, he doesn't even like playing his own videogames. He has no real vice in life, no visceral passions, his only interests seem to all revolve around something techy and exist to make himself feel/seem smarter - the purest form of teenage autism. This is confirmed by watching a bit of his 2,000 hour interview with Joe Rogan.

In a rare show of human endeavour, I've seen him talking smack about Overwatch and saying how it's just a casual team game - what a fucking poser. yeah of course Overwatch is more casual than Quake but Carmack has never played or been properly interested in either of them at any high level. Carmack just coming up with this out of the blue really smacks of him just trying to gain points with gamers, for them to say "hurrr yeah, you tell them Carmack", I have no idea why anyone would respect him.

>>5952930
he's not arrogant in the sligthest, he's just way smarter than you are, but at the same time he'll never talk down to you
I recommend watching some quakecon keynotes or any interview he did witch some gayme journo, just to see them shrivel like it's a cold day in the locker room because carmack can give an hour long speech about anything tech related, from computer science to aerospace and tuning ferrari engines

>>5950992
That is what I had intended to imply, yes. Bit of an oversight in phrasing.

>>5950986
Ultima Underworld came out in 1992, System Shock in 1994.

>>5950986
wrong

>>5952951
I wouldn't say arrogant but his alien-like understanding of empathy and inability to relate to others' situations does make me thankful he's merely confined to our harmless nerd shit.

The dude would be legit dangerous if he was in charge of anything else, his incredible competence with combined with such a robotic, laser-focused drive is an interesting combo.

>>5953630
see
>>5950992
>>5951678
>>5953557

>>5953696
How do I age this well?

>>5950691
DOOM, DOOM2, Final DOOM, and DOOM64 all happened before Columbine. DOOM's retro legacy as cemented.
I'm also pretty sure Harris and Klebold still would have done what they did without DOOM, since they got inspired by a lot of other shit (unless that other shit also wouldn't exist without DOOM).

>>5951678
>Carmack refused to patent the idea on ideological grounds,

what if he patented? could ID software had the monopoly on FPS to the present day?

>>5950683
NO......... Romero can't produce any thing worth a shit on his own.

>>5953704
Lack of financial stress. Good Food. Active Lifestyle.

>>5954304
>Good food
Didn't he eat a whole pizza every day for 15 years?

>>5950683
Carmack was the brains and Romero was the heart of doom.

Both was very essential. Carmack can make a game that runs butter smooth and look graphically intense but his games have no soul to it. Romero kept jumping to engine to engine and didn't have carmack any more but his passion for games and his Idea for doom source code to be available is the reason why doom is still relevant to this day.

>>5953696
what a chin

>>5950683
It would've been opensource day one.

Or as Carmack would put it mmmmmmit've would've been opensource day onemmmmm.

>>5955798
The other way around. Fuck i'm retarded.

>>5954290
Dude sunk like 20m on an mmo that couldn't scale.

ID software really is 99% Carmack's genius.

>>5951083
He reinventing the super mario 3 method of eliminating lines from the view.

>>5951091
an 8bit console vs an 8bit computer anon.

>>5950683
> Coding god.
> Had to google how to dban a hard drive.

Would op have been the same without his parents?

>>5955667
Good point but everyone at ID back then was the heart of doom. Carmack was the brain of them. Romero had some more social charisma than the others and that was it.

>>5955656
Good food is for losing weight, when you are thin enough you can get away with just active lifestyle.

>>5955851
didnt he just code for 16 hours a day?

>>5953696

>kept you waiting, huh?

Hol up ain't the scrolling shit only for ega graphics? Like once VGA became the standard his solution became deprecated.

>>5951167
>>5951186
Stupid fucking zoomers
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.themarysue.com/1995-john-carmack-quake-monitor/amp/

>>5955656
doubt it, he looks healthy and smart.

>>5955931
kinda. most consumers were slow to adopt VGA and yes the code he wrote for Keen was targeting CGA and EGA cards. but even still no one did scrolling as smooth as he did, again on IBM-compatible hardware
>>5956870
i always forget about that monstrosity imagine the headaches holy crap

>>5956903
Carmack loves pizza. During his time at id Software, a medium pepperoni pizza would arrive for Carmack from Domino's Pizza almost every day, carried by the same delivery person for more than 15 years. Carmack had been such a regular customer that they still charge him 1995 prices.

>>5957610
Is Carmack somehow related to this dude?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2A1qYpp4HA&t=7s

>>5953659
he's a neitszschian ubermensh and we're all jealous

>>5953659
You mean like programming weapons/military stuff? Or being in charge of a military?

>>5957686

>>5953704
he smashes teen pussy every night

>>5954226
Patents only last 20 years, it would have ran out eventually.

>>5951805
>Hey guys do you think the Elder Scrolls would be the same without Todd Howard??
of course not. they'd be better.

>>5950683
No. He was an integral catalyst. The id team knew what they had. Lock him in a room with some pizza and a PC and you'd get an engine that nobody had dreamed of. And that's more or less exactly what they did. Same thing happened almost exactly with Epic and Sweeney.

You can make strong arguments about them being placed in business positions or control of content but as pure coding those two were years ahead of the curve and gaming would be held back until it caught up without them.

>>5956870
>amp
out.

>>5950683
Oh shit its the guy from foxtrot. I love that comic.

>>5950848
They weren't bullied. In fact, teachers say they were the ones that bullied other people.
The tld;r is that Eric was a psychopath and Dylan was an apathetic depressed or something.

"muh bullied" and "muh metal" is just as stupid as "muh doom"

>>5950691

>>5950683
We'd be fucked.

>>5950703
What was a toaster like at the time?

>>5958312
Came for the drawing of Carmack talking tech shit while choking a dude out. Leaving disappointed

>>5959000
Source?

>>5959204
beige, slow

>>5959601
and loud as fuck

>>5952951
Lol mad Overbabby

>>5958276
He was one of the main creative drives during Morrowind, which was the peak of TES.

>>5953624
Ultima Underworld was slow as balls though, and hardly had the same replay value.

>>5954226
You can't patent the concept of a first person shooter, and there are other ways to do that sort of central optimization, such as with portals.
Carmack just had the right idea to use the right pre-existing concept at the right point in time, first with Doom's 2.5D on 1993 computers, then applying it again (with some difficulty), to Quake's software 3D world in 1996, which is basically the only way the average Joe's mediocre computer could get 20fps consistently back then.

If you look at Bethesda's Terminator Future Shock, it came out a year before Quake, it was also software 3D, but not nearly as well optimized, with darkness hiding a rather short draw distance.
Very forward thinking game for its time (arguably a bit too ambitious for its own good), it just didn't have quite the tech behind it that Quake had.

Binary Space Partitioning as a concept predates John Carmack's birth by a year, so he couldn't very well patent it, someone else who was smart enough could employ it just as well around that time. More things probably went into Quake's software 3D though, which he could possibly have patented.
If anything, Carmack having a less open attitude to things like that would probably affect the commercial industry less directly, and instead it would probably kill the modding scene for Doom and Quake, which would have more indirect repercussions (though likely significant ones, given just how much stems from their modding scenes), the games certainly wouldn't have had their basically infinite shelf lifes that they demonstrably exhibit.
Doom and Quake are good games at their cores, but the majority of their value is how much usermade content there is for them out there, some which is really good, arguably better than the originals at times, and if you think you can do something good yourself, you sure can try.

>>5954290
He's a pretty good level designer, not just an ideas guy.

>>5950703
I wouldn't say smoothly on a toaster, they advertised that Doom would play on a 386 computer, and it will, but you're likely not going to get more than 20fps unless you scale your screen down a few notches and turn on low detail mode.
Forget about mouseturning as well, your 386 probably can't fit both Doom and your mousedrivers in its memory at the same time. Thankfully, the original 3 episodes aren't too hard, so keyboardonlyplebs could still play it.
With a 486 computer you could run Doom at a good FPS, with a full screen, and with a mouse for horizontal turning, being the top tier way to play Doom in 1993/1994.

But yes, without some optimization like discussed, Doom would either run like shit on consumer grade computers, or have a radically different design.

>>5955656
Pizza isn't that terrible if you do some exercise, which Carmack does, he did a lot of martial arts stuff.
Protein, animal fats, and vegetables, on bread, and he didn't leave the calories to just gather on his gut or thighs, he put them to use.

Drank a lot of diet soda though, which might affect your stomach and more importantly teeth given all the acids (it's not just the sugar), but perhaps he has good oral hygiene. Again, he spent those calories.

>>5959000
Wiki article says they were bullied. Having a cup of shit being thrown at them was their last straw.

>>5958312
Ken Silverman's engine was impressive too but he never did anything great after BUILD

>>5961704
>>5959590
>>5959000
They were "bullied" the same way an edgy fedora atheist asshole guy at a christian school would be bullied

>>5961717
There's no such thing as police brutality. It's just shit made up by Leftists.

>>5961731
lol. yeah maybe from the perspective of a sheltered suburban kid

>>5961731
I'm sure shooting a man who was on his knees with his hands in the air doesn't qualify as brutality, also what the fuck does this have to do with the subject you mongoloid?

>>5961717
Pretty much, Eric and Dylan were shitty people who deserved to be treated like they were.

>>5955879
Maybe during crunch, the man is visibly pretty buff in all the material around that era.

>>5955879
Code for 16, lifted for 8.

>>5962594
I'm totally against police brutality, but if you're talking about the guy that pointed an air rifle out of the window of a Vegas window right after the country concert shooting, that was and is a dumb hill to die on.
He didn't have his hands in the air, he reached for the exact spot ghetto trash keep their handgun in.

>>5950683

The engien is the heart and soul of the project. You need engine + art however to make a good project though. Carmack on his own has no clue how to make a fun or exciting game. You need Adrian Carmack's art, and John Romero's maps, plus the rest of the team.

>>5962602
that's just his right arm, though.
;-)____

>>5955667
Sandy Peterson and the artists are the entire rest of the body. I would argue that Sandy is the hands, because he literally made so many fucking levels for Doom that the majority of the credit for the mapping can be allocated to him.

>>5963063
No, I've never even heard of that one, I was more talking the guy who was pleading to a cop to not shoot a special needs person in his care who was sitting in the middle of the street.

>>5963148
Lel. See if you can find the video of him choking out Jace Hall.

>>5963243
Counting Ultimate Doom + Doom 2 he made half of all the levels, some based on Tom Hall's maps (Romero also did this).
Considering he was hired 10 weeks from release and was getting familiar with the engine as he went, he did a pretty stellar job on the first game, only like 3 or 4 of his maps could be considered subpar.
For Doom 2 it's another couple of blunders, but I think most of his maps there are good or decent.

Then you look at Quake, and all his maps there are hits.

>>5950691
Likely they would've committed some sort of atrocity regardless, as the underlying cause was still there. All that DOOM and the other things that they were in to influenced the method. It could've easily been a bombing, poison in the cafeteria food, or any number of other gruesome mass murders.

If you want to fix that shit, it has to start as to why people are upset in the first place. Everyone knows it, and they're not willing to pay the price to fix it, so they instead look for band-aid fixes for the problem.

>>5959430
I came here looking for it too, found it elsewhere. Anyone got more of these drawings? I saw at least like five or six other variations in another thread on /v/

If you think about it, Doom really wasn't that good.

>>5963479
bait or zoomer sighted

>>5950683
ConsConsiderConsConsidering he literally made the engine, no.

>>5963063
Even if he did have a gun, he had no time to pull it out and shoot people. He was LITERALLY not a threat to anyone. Even if he did have a gun, that faggot onions nigger cop who shot him could have aimed for a shoulder or hand. You're defending the murder of a defenseless man who was murdered by the people who were supposed to protect him. You're fucking garbage.

>>5950683
No

>>5963716
Firearms aren't used for non-lethal shots, he shouldn't have shot him at all.

>>5963716
You have to be over 18 to post here, kid.

>>5963479
maybe compared to some of the two decades of games after it. At the time, it was amazing.

>>5965147
I still think it holds up really well.

The original three episodes are kinda easy, but the levels are all designed pretty well, they all work and sell a good adventure.
Thing is that the core gameplay of Doom is just really solid, every weapon, monster, and item in the game fills a role, they are distinct and have distinct uses, particularly after the bestiary was filled out in Doom 2, adding a couple of new different monsters which do new things and serve new roles, which in Doom 2 are used to build new encounters for new challenges.
Doom 2 was a step up in challenge, and Thy Flesh Consumed offered some which was good as well, but it's with Final Doom, specifically Plutonia, where it really takes off.
Plutonia was in its day The Ultimate Challenge, with some seriously tough and seriously fun gameplay, it's intense and exciting, the authors really got to know the monsters of Doom and Doom 2 well, and they really knew how to best put them to use to give you a hard, but not unfair time.

Everything about classic Doom just works and is done right, and the base games show a few different ways of how, and if you're the kind of guy who really likes Doom, you're in luck because there's like 25 years of usermade content, and counting.
For someone who wants more, there is a lot more, and there'll continue to be more, and chances are great that you'll find more content for the game that you like.
A rock solid and defining FPS, and a neverending cornucopia for the right kind of person.

>>5964959
lol this

Would Daikatana have been the same without Romero?

Yeah bro, just like Windows would have been the same without Nolan Bushnell

>>5961552
> I wouldn't say smoothly on a toaster, they advertised that Doom would play on a 386 computer, and it will, but you're likely not going to get more than 20fps unless you scale your screen down a few notches and turn on low detail mode.
only 486s got near 20fps on a contemporary machine tbqh.

low detail mode got you another 10fps on a 486, not sure how much it helped on a 386

>>5950703
clever optimization + very tight, rewarding gameplay

>>5950868
doom didn't use raytracing/raycasting
(you're thinking of wolf3d)

>>5952930
carmack is probably one of the last guys i'd call arrogant desu

he's super down to earth despite being very smart and extremely hard working

>>5961714
he did voxlap, which was (and still is) extremely impressive, but he picked voxels, which were the wrong techology for the time.

>>5963063
Seems like the right to bear arms is getting you killed more than it's saving lives.

>>5968702
I don't go about waving air rifles out of hotel windows in Vegas, so I think I'm okay.

>>5950683

They were originally going to call it DEMON but it was the genius of Carmack who changed the name to DOOM.

The rest is history.

>>5957610
and he isn't even fat

>>5951678
>couple of levels of Super Mario Bros. 3,
Here is the video of the game, if someone is interested:
https://vimeo.com/148909578

>>5968663
He might have seen those .gifs/videos showing Doom drawing its visplanes step by step and assumed it was the same as how Wolfenstein 3D does it, because it looks a little bit similar with how the lines are drawn to fill in the planes.

>>5968702
If you know nothing at all about recorded crime statistics I suppose.

>>5950683
No, because he fucking invented it. Quit making stupid threads

>>5950683
Carmack is Doom. Romeo's a hack

>>5969613
Yeah, the rendering algorithm is a bit tricky to grasp at first. And lots of people say it "raycasts against the bsp tree" because they heard it used raycasting.

>>5969613
Also, being pedantic here, but the visplanes are technically just the floors and ceilings. The walls are internally called segs.

>>5969730
True enough, I just draw from my memory of terms like visplane limits and visplane blockers, the latter which describes a mapper putting in a section of wall or landscape which blocks your view, making sure you don't see too many planes at once and crashing the original .exe (important it you want larger and complex maps without breaking the engine).
Nobody ever called them drawseg blockers (that I remember) even though they would be both.

Mostly stuff you'd see in usermade maps, though I think some of the console versions of some official maps (I think the GBA ones) you can occasionally find some added/altered walls and structures like that, though more to make sure not too many monsters see you and wake up at once.

>>5969636
>>5969619
He made some good mortar, but the house that is Doom would be nothing without the bricks and additional work by the rest of the team.

It was also guys like John Romero and Tom Hall who drove John Carmack to innovate, Wolfenstein 3D wasn't originally gonna have pushwall secrets (so, no secrets at all), because Carmack thought there wouldn't be a clean and good looking way to implement it.
Tom and Romero nagged Carmack about the secret walls a lot, and he refused, but eventually gave in and worked out a method right before they went to argue with him again, because he realized their insistence meant it would actually be important.
For Doom, though Tom would eventually be fired over creative differences and arguments over work, it was his insistent pleading and nagging to Carmack that convinced him that Doom should have teleporters and flying monsters. Likewise, Romero's perhaps greatest contribution to Doom (and possibly the greatest overall) was that one of his early alpha maps were WAY too advanced for the first rendering engine, making it just completely shit itself, and how this forced Carmack to look for alternatives and made him research Binary Space Partitioning.

Without Tom and Romero, Doom would have turned out a far less advanced and fun game, which doesn't even get into all the other important contributions by the others, like Sandy, Adrian, Bobby, Taylor, and later American, to name just some, along with their contributions to the other games.

>>5969798
That's because doom will just skip drawing anything past the first 256 walls (I think that's the number), and it won't skip visplanes. Maybe Carmack decided that if it draws a wall, it always needs to draw the floor.

>>5970021
Aaah, that makes sense.

>>5951684
BSP, the same thing used in half-life/source?

>>5959000
>>5961704
>>5961717
Wait, I remember hearing one of the 2 actually had friends at the high school, he just liked his friend so much or was pissed or was psycotic.

>>5970172
Yeah, Half-Life uses a highly upgraded Quake engine (adding, among many other things, skeletal animations), Valve licensed the engine from iD Software and built their own out of it.
Hence the 'Gold-Source' engine actually has a fair bit of similarities with the original Quake engine, and some partial compatibility.

Dario Casali is Valve's head mapper, and he actually scored his job at Valve in part because he made half of The Plutonia Experiment (the other part was his brother Milo), which was part of the Final Doom retail package.
Plutonia is considered by many as the strongest part of classic Doom, and it was banged out in quite a short amount of time.
I imagine he had some familiarity with BSP Trees and nodebuilding and stuff.

>>5969261
Its easy to see why Nintendo rejected their pitch after seeing this. I wonder what the world would be like if they actually accepted it though

>>5970218
It's a crude proof of concept, I figure if Nintendo was interested they would have received technical support and necessary assets.
Nintendo told them 'Good job', but that they weren't interested in the home computer market. Given how particularly monopolistic Nintendo was at the time, it makes sense.

No

>>5970218
>>5970224
https://youtu.be/hlRKje-OCYA

>>5970356
Fascinating stuff. Maybe it was just Nintendo Of America talking?

>>5970356
I like that channel desu.

>>5969857
Carmack first used BSP on the SNES Wolfenstein port actually.

>>5968803

>genius
>ripping off a line from some cult recruitment film

Doom is forever tainted by this fact. Kifflom, brother brother.

>>5950683
literally who

>>5971987
I've heard that before, but I remember looking for a source for that and wasn't able to find one. I'll believe it though, because the SNES just barely handles Wolfenstein 3D as it is, it clearly needed all the help it could get.

The thing with SNES Wolfenstein 3D also is that it was contracted out to someone else, Burger Bill, who supposedly hadn't gotten anything done due to some manner of contract/rights issues, so all the iD guys had to drop what they were doing with Doom for a short while, to bang together this port they owed a publisher.
If you've seen some old video footage of the iD Software office when they were working on Doom, there's some where you see Romero play it for a bit, and they're using the SNES Wolfenstein 3D sounds as placeholders, Bobby Prince hadn't gotten them their sound effects yet by that point, presumably having just gotten off making that port.