/vr/ - Retro Games

Sage for posting a flatscreen with a retro game.

>>5958309
If you were old enough to be here you'd know the answer

>>5958309
If you had any idea how crt tvs, light guns OLEDs, work or know anything abut electronics you wouldn't make t his thread.

I love my OLED, but I doubt that OLED could make light gun games work again.

There is a lot more that could be done with OLED with more complicated per-pixel light modulation. Right now, all they have is a simple on-off flash of every pixel every 1/60th of a second if you want increased motion resolution. In theory, a TV manufacturer could build in a "CRT mode" that modulates the light to each pixel in a way that simulates the way a CRT "scans" the picture, which could create a reasonably nice CRT-like effect.

However, the issue remains that OLED is still a sample-and-hold display tech, and can't display as intantaneously as CRT can. You have to deal with pixel transition times, and while those are better than LCD, there still is a defecit when compared to CRT, which likely would be a dealbreaker for lightgun games. While backlight modulation could work for a CRT effect (that still wouldn't be able to exactly replicate a CRT assuming a TV manufacturer would ever implement such a thing), I don't think that it would be good enough to actually pull off lightgun games.

>>5958309
Not really. Oleds still dont roll a scan line across the screen, it flashes a whole buffer in.

Nes blaster sucks so it actually can work because it uses white squares. Theres romnhacks to compensate for your screen lag.

SMS and better blasters use the actual gun timing though, so no.

You'd need a 15khz refresh rate monitor and send each pixel as an individual frame, then the gun could see it.

If you have the spade for an arcade cabinet so the screen is on the bottom and projecting up at a mirror, you can setup an infrared camera to watch the front glass. If you put an infrared scattering film on it you can shoot an infrared led with a lens on it and capture the infrared light on the screen and use that as a very good approximation of a traditional lightgun.

>>5958309
Just shoot real live ammo at that blurry mess of shit.

>>5958424

I've played some light gun games by tapping touch screens and it was fairly enjoyable so I think what we need are guns that actually fire - I dunno, a burst of highly polarized gas? That actually triggers a tap where it strikes an inductive touch screen.

original idea do not steal - patents pending

>>5958450
>light gun games by tapping touch screens

>>5958450
Beat you to it anon

>>5958309
nes resolution: 256 x 240

nes pixels: 61440


modern resolution: 1920 x 1080

total modern pixels: 2073600

It would have to fire at 1/59.94 or roughly 1/60 second per frame, but the frame would contain 33.75 times more data, assuming you could black out every odd or even line on the oled then the multiple falls to 16.875.

This is assuming interpolation/scaling that doesnt look like shit when showing a low res 4:3 on a high res 16:9 panel.

Hopefully the Sinden gun gets into production.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCszMGyO4yZDlOn3m9iDIp4w

>>5958424
https://youtu.be/NeVIKz9p4zY
Basically this guy.
A couple people have made this solution in the last few years.

>>5958403
>Asks question
>"If you knew the answer you wouldn't ask this question"
American education system, folks.

>>5958309
Do you need an ADC?
If yes, there's too much latency.

>>5958409
TV manufacturers are hell bent on adding a bunch of needless post processing. Assuming none of that the only real question is whether the individual OLEDs can flash fast enough in sequence. You'd need a shit ton of current and that might fuck the lifespan of the panel. There's also the issue that CRT phosphors don't just turn off when the electron beam moves on. There's a decay and I'm not sure if losing that would affect how our eyes perceive the image. I suppose each individual diode could gradually fade if the panel's circuitry allows for it. Not sure about the technical specifics there. I don't think there's any technical reason why an OLED panel would have to sample-and-hold other than that's just how manufacturers design them.

>>5958424
The question isn't "do they work on current OLEDs." It's "could OLEDs be designed to..." To me the only real question is whether they're fast enough to be turned on and off in sequence. An entire screen has to be rendered in 1/60 of a second.

>>5958509
see

>>5958468

>>5958509
You also need to make your own display standard or go back to vga, then you'll lose all your high resolution shaders.

>>5958516
As someone who doesn't have any frame of reference to how fast the upper limit of an OLED panel is, that doesn't actually answer the question. I get the implication is "no" but those numbers alone don't actually put it into context. There are 120hz and better displays, remember.

>>5958456
I also got an S rank in every mini game on House of the Dead 2 on a CRT projector with imported Sega OEM light guns in 1999. Still, light gun games on touch screen can be enjoyable. It's better than playing with a mouse, including relative-position "light guns" like Aimtrak.

>>5958486
the statement seemed to be "if you knew anything about electronics you wouldn't have made this thread". ops statement is attempting to showcase that they do understand electronics however. maybe your comprehension is to blame

>>5958549
How is that any different.
>"You don't know the answer to your question. I however do. But I will not provide it while bragging that I know it."
You're as retarded as he is.

>>5958549
How is asking a question about electronics "attempting to showcase they understand electronics"? People who have general knowledge but not specific knowledge ask technical questions all the time.

>>5958548
The problem is with wiimote style pointing where you're essentially dragging a cursor across the screen. Tapping would work and be fun too if the game was designed that way.

>>5958572
Off topic but as a kid I would boot Virtua Cop with a controller and then swap in the light gun so I could aim with the reticle.

>>5958572
Yes that's what I mean by relative position. Real light guns (and tapping) are absolute positioning inputs and inductive touch screens are commonplace. I'm sure there's a market for a "tap gun".

>>5958575
Yeah I remember that, was good to memorize the targets. I also did that with the PC version which was much faster with the mouse than the Saturn pad.

>>5958580
The issue there is how expensive these things are. If I'm spending a grand or more on a 50 inch TV I don't want people poking it with their fingers.

>>5958556
no I'm just waking up. it was a long night
>>5958570
most retro threads are flexing contests. been here long?

>>5958486
>asks something that could easily be answered by 5 minutes of reading on google
>"why are you wasting our time with this nonsense, you have the internet at your fingertips"
Are all 3rd worlders unable to put 2 and 2 together and realize they can find answers with the information superhighway?

>>5958593
... thus the idea of a gun that fires a burst of ionized particles that can trigger the tap.

>>5958309
No, people would rather play with VR and rail shooters are too shallow for today's galaxy brained gamers

>>5958542
At 1920 x 1080, or hell, lets call it 960 x 720 as that scales up decently from 240p retroshit would be 691200 total pixels per frame, in other words the screen would pulse nearly 700,000 times per 1/60th or 1/59.94th of a second in order to keep up, and that's not even at full 720p or 1080p resolutions. A 120hz panel would have no hope of doing this. Heat would likely be an issue in addition to the fact that old crts used electroluminescent paint that OLED don't have, which "Retained" the image by "decaying" slowly.

Not saying its completely impossible, it simply isn't feasible with whats currently available to the average consumer.


Now this pixel count is still 11.5 times that of an nes, but still well under what 1080p gaymers crave, not to mention 4k or the higher resolution stuff that's coming down the pipe.

>>5958601
This cannot be answered on google. Try it. Find an answer.

>>5958648
Thank you. That's actually helpful. I guess an alternative would be if the TV processes the image as 60 individual frames and flashes them in sequence at 1/60 per second. Of course then you run into the timing issue that such processing would introduce that fuck light guns in the first place.

>>5958648
Did phosphor decay actually matter? A hypothetical CRT with hypothetical "instant off" phosphors should look the same because of persistence of vision right?

>>5958678
>Did phosphor decay actually matter?
yes

>A hypothetical CRT with hypothetical "instant off" phosphors should look the same because of persistence of vision right?
no

https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?t=3388

Found this conversation where they talk about rolling scan OLEDs. Seems relevant.

>>5958424
>it flashes a whole buffer in.
The thousands of different OLEDs aren't an "it" sport. Rolling scan is a thing.

>>5958486
>if i could into reading comprehension i wouldn't make this shitpost

>>5958509
Entire screens are regularly rendered in much less than 1/60 of a second.

>>5958686
Very relevant to tards who think shit's drawn a whole screen at a time. BB also has some nice high speed videos that show how CRTs actually work. Highly recommended for zoomennials who need to get up to speed on the basics.

>>5958431
based

If the target detection is simple enough a la showing white boxes over a black background with no extra trickery then simply adjusting for lag should be enough. Some based russian is doing hacks for the NES lightgun games and they're all decent:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRmkiaaypV8

>>5958424
how are the blasters different? I was under the impression that they were using the same tech?

>>5958309
Could a 144hz monitor emulate this effect?

>>5959405
no

>>5958580
Who wants to tap shit to kill it like a retarded mage?

>>5959442
THAT'S WHY THERE SHOULD BE A GUN THAT CAN TRIGGER TAPS

Jesus fucking Christ

>>5959397
The nes flashes the screen black then loads white squares around the targets.

The master system just knows where the beam is and can tell when its pointing at the gun.

>>5959329
Yeah, that's totally relevant to ANY points.

Good luck with your custom firmware. Really, but I think its still too much of a hassle. Infrared guns with a camera watching where you're pointing seems much easier to implement, and you dont need a stupid white border around the screen.

>>5959469
>The master system just knows where the beam is and can tell when its pointing at the gun.

any more info on this? I cant wrap my head around it

>>5959397
https://youtu.be/qCZ-Z-OZFUs
Nes zapper on lcd screens.

>>5959492
im asking about the sms blaster there chief

>>5958593
The NDS had guns like that.

>>5958593
The NDS had games like that.

>>5959479
So the nes blacks the screen then displays white squares. The sms just displays a white frame but it knows where the beam is so as soon as the gun sees white thats where its aiming.

>>5958309
No, because they're not bright enough. Only inorganic micro-LEDs are capable of realistically simulating CRT raster scan. And even if they actually make it to market they probably won't, because it makes the control circuitry more complicated for something most people don't care about (old video games).

>>5959469
Everything that outs a bullshitter is relevant. That's really the only way you know who's legit and who's full of shit on an anonymous board.
Lots of stuff, like your reverse-waggle guns, are easy to implement but are shit. You shouldn't bring up that white boarder shit if you want to be taken seriously or hide your new.

I have a LOEWE CRT TV and I found out its 100hz. I've been told by friends that I may have some input lag with the TV. I have not been able to test it due to the remote not working and I'm unable to turn the tv on past stand by (It does work just a lot of fucking around in required).

Any1 here have experience with 100hz CRT's and how do they fair?

>>5959845
More information on reverse waggle being shit please.

>>5959932
people are going to tell you that it's no good because it's 100hz.

They're just passing on misinformation they've been told by others.

Loewe 100hz CRTs are awesome, there is a very very slight lag (less than one frame). The lag is so slight that you can use a light gun on the top 2/3 of the screen.

Mind if I ask the model?

>>5959936
It's shitty inaccurate shit? Have you never used a real light gun?

>>5960042
I have never used a reverse waggle and cant imagine why it would be inaccurate

>>5960042
>>5958485
Like this seems perfect.

If you calibrate it you can walk anywhere in the room amd your gun is really shooting what you aim at because its literally shooting. You can see him calibrate it at 2:15 and see what the camera is recording.

>>5960025
>it's no good because it's 100hz
Which is correct, because PAL is always shit even if you hide the 50Hz flicker by frame doubling (which causes ghost images trailing motion by the same mechanism as sample-and-hold blur).

>>5959537
how does it know where thee beam is?

>>5961212
It knows when it sends a new frame and one field needs to be drawn in 1/60 of a second. Theres not really a more specific explanation than it just knows without giving actual examples from code.

If you ever player with an sms you know it's very different from a zapper and less distracting

>>5960478
>buy and set up a projector with some special screen shit
>buy and set up camera and laser and mod the shit
>shoot literal blinding lasers around your room
>emulate
Seems perfect indeed!

>>5961365
>without giving actual examples from code
kek. Why can't aspies just say "I don't know"?

>>5961692
It doesnt need to be actual blinding laser, that's stupid. Youd have just such likelyhood as being blinded by your remote control.

And now i dont need a fucking crt! And if this was an arcade cab this is all self contained anyway.

Because I explained it in a very reasonable way to the layman and you're clearly a fucking idiot trying lol i trolled u instead of actually have any questions or genuine interest in light guns. You're just some faggot.

I love how eco nuts and poorfags have made CRTs a thing of the past.
Isn't it wonderful to look at CFL/LED lighting instead of the warm glow of electrons hitting phosphors?

>>5961834
>laser
>remote control
Top kek kid

>if this was an arcade cab this is all self contained anyway
Confirmed zoomennial who's never been been to an arcade. Another retarded redditot making a fool of himself on the fourth channel.

>>5958309

>Can expensive ass TVs that the mainstream won't upgrade to for a long time save a fringe genre?

>>5961985
Well one, lasers come in different powers. Two, I bet you could probably do it with an led and a lens.

>arcade cabs
I dunno, have you?

In this implementation the detection camera would be watching the plexiglass between the player and the mirror, which is probably opaque enough to infrared that it can be detected.

>>5961985
Or did you just out your self as such a manlet/baby that you have never been tall enough to look down at a stand up arcade cabinet and gone 'huh, the tv is in the bottom and mirrored. I've been playing all these games on a mirror all this time'

>>5962186
Top kek kid. No one gives a fuck what some retarded underage who doesn't know if he's ever been to and arcade is willing to bet on.
Cool drawing of something you've never actually seen.

>>5962196
Nah. But you just outed yourself as such a zoomlet/baby that you never knew this until now and still don't know how much it was used

>>5961994
>Expensive ass
lol wut? "low end" OLED is pretty cheap and usually they are just last years processor and in most cases all the models use the same panel.

LG B, C, E, W are all the same panel. However the B is an older processor. The C and E are identical but the E has a chin and larger speaker setup. The W has a stand built in. However C, E, W are identical all around and B would be too if not for the processor being older.

>>5961692
You are a little slow, aren't you?

>>5960025
A lot of tvs are below one frame. However the CRTs 'hold' method and how it does conversion of frames/scans would be as in the way as LCD hold and sample.

>>5962334
Compared to what, someone like you who's a lot slow? I guess it's all relative.