/vr/ - Retro Games

>>5941269
its actually not identical you idiot.

it's literally a glorified raspberry pi

enjoy spending 4x as much money on snake oil emulation

>>5941269
>A new challenger approaches!!!!!

>>5941393
The MISTer isn't be cause OP is retarded. But FPGA can be identical and the good ones are.
>>5941406
Way better than a Pi ever would be.

>>5941427
>good ones are
so none of them?

>>5941406

Oh gosh! You’re totally correct!! Thousands of people just decide to opt to spend ~$250 for Mister builds just for the hell of it! God damn I am so stupid I didn’t realize I could’ve bought a raspberry pi this whole time!!!! Fucking idiot die in a fire

>>5941427
No shit moron. I guess you would be correct if somebody just randomly decided to only use early cores and nothing current. Makes perfect sense in your world..

>>5941775
He's right, though. You got memed.

FPGA Hardware "emulation" can go further beyond the limitations of software emulation on a Raspberry Pi. It can essentially be cycle accurate to original hardware, have no added input lag(major weakness of software emulation) etc...


In a perfect world, FPGA can reproduce a perfect 1 to 1 digital clone of a physical piece of hardware, be it just a single chip, or an entire motherboard with all of its chips, capacitors, transistors, memory, etc , depending on how powerful the FPGA chip is, and how good the coder is. And if there is room left over, you can add more features over the original hardware, much like how software emulation is, shaders, higher resolution, save states, cheats, netplay, etc etc

fpga naysayers are just 'burn the witch' of /vr/ . get educated

>and costs way less
Unless of course you already own all or most of the real hardware that you want.

>>5941269
Aside from all the shit it can't do, the high price, and the fact that it's emulation, yeah, no reason at all. zoom zoom.

Most underrated aspect of the MiSTER: the sound. Big difference vs emulators.

And also do not forget that all the cores are open source, to be enjoyed for free and preserved forever, for and by the community

>>5941889
It is not emulation. To emulate something, in computer terms, it has to have a host system running an emulator program.
When it comes to hardware that behaves in a certain way, it is called "implementation".

FPGA implementation is not emulation, since it is not one system emulating another but a system that is electronically converted into another. The developers of FPGA implementations themselves say that this is not emulation.

>>5941269
What are you talking about? FPGAs are emulators.

>>5941915
Nope. When you emulate a system, you are using the processing power and resources of another system to make it work like the original system; in an FPGA the resources are not at the processing level, they are at the low level: registers, LUTs, DSPs, etc. With these resources you can generate any electronic system you want, as long as there are enough in the FPGA.

>>5941923
Yes, they're emulating the original consoles.

>>5941923
The autistic mind, everyone. I can’t imagine how many hoops you jump through on a daily basis.

>>5941930
Is the NES an emulator of the Famicom? Its chips are not the ones that the original models had, they even present incompatibilities: often, they were reimplemented in a smaller number of integrated circuits to save costs. But this does not mean that the Snes JR is an emulator of SNES or that the MegaDrive II is an emulator of MegaDrive.

Again, FPGA are implementations not emulators

>>5941923
>emulate
>COMPUTING
>reproduce the function or action of (a different computer, software system, etc.).

>>5941943
You might have an argument if FPGA devs had access to the original chip schematics. They don't, so they have to do their best to mimic the observed behavior of the chips instead. That's emulation.

>>5941943
>Is the NES an emulator of the Famicom?
No, they are different devices which can run common software. The NES was not designed or intended to be an exact emulation(!) of the Famicom.

The intent behind FGPA clones of classic systems is to emulate(!) those systems.

Words have specific meanings. Emulate is one of them. An emulator is a type of software that emulates something else. An FPGA is a type of hardware that emulates something else when that is the intent of design . Both usages are correct.

>>5941947
Even if they did have all of the documentation and made the FGPA as perfect as it could be it would still be emulation because that is literally what the word means. It's only in video games where it has taken on this secondary informal meaning where it is relegated to software emulation only.

>>5941269
I heard about it on youtube ! It just started emulating neogeo! I would say neogeo + 8 bits and 16 bits console is good enough...if only it emulated psx games it would beat the pi for me personally at least .

>>5941798
>have no added input lag(major weakness of software emulation)
yeah thats just wrong. with run ahead software can emulate with zero input lag, something even original hardware cant do

>>5941904
the thing transforms itself into original hardware like a harry potter artifact I swear guys

>>5941947
Every machine consists of a series of integrated circuits whose logic was first implemented in an FPGA or in a PLD before going into production... None of us have ever used anything other than emulators, because... you won't have the PLDs that Sony used to implement the SNES SPU before moving it to an ASIC, will you? Well, following your own logic, you've never used the original hardware, but emulators since you first grabbed a controller.

So you get none of the authenticity of real hardware and none of the additional benefits emulation provides

Sounds retarded

Is pulling out one of these to play a retrogame with someone the equivalent of those /tv shitposts about having someone over to watch a movie and you pull out your laptop to torrent something instead of using Netflix?

>>5941952
>Words have specific meanings. Emulate is one of them. An emulator is a type of software that emulates something else. An FPGA is a type of hardware that emulates something else when that is the intent of design . Both usages are correct.
I will repeat it:

to emulate something, in computer terms, it has to have a host system running an emulator program.
When it comes to hardware that behaves in a certain way, it is called "implementation".

FPGA implementation is not emulation, since it is not one system emulating another but a system that is electronically converted into another.

>>5942043
It is quite authentic, in terms of input lag.

TVs aside, the problem is that emulators run on operating systems that:

1- They use multiple video buffers (add16ms of delay for each one! And many times triple buffer systems are used, something horriblefor retro games)

2- They use big audio buffers (I challenge you to get a stable sound with an emulator with a buffer of less than 128ms in Windows).

3- They read the USBs from time to time (in FPGAs and in the original machines, you press a button and a signal is generated in that instant, you don't have to wait for it to read the controller...).

>>5942041
You might have an argument if FPGA devs had access to the original chip schematics. They don't, so they have to do their best to mimic the observed behavior of the chips instead. That's emulation.

>>5941904
>The developers of FPGA implementations themselves say that this is not emulation.
They are wrong.

>>5942060
Repeating it doesn't make it true. You're just trying to redefine words to suit your marketing message.

>>5942101
>>5942113
Semantically (=dictionary), you're right. But if we stick to semantics and accept that FPGAs are an emulator, so is your original SNES. There has only been one original SNES: the prototype that Nintendo and Sony made using PLDs (="old FPGAs") before releasing the first console for sale.

>>5942075
USB polling is a problem for MiSTer, too.

>>5942124
mister fister

>>5942043
Done right, FPGAs are very accurate and actually produce the same glitches that happened on original hardware. Definitely superior to software emulators. I'll always prefer original hardware, but not everyone has the luxury of having owned a console when it came out or wanting to buy a used one online. Someday the supply is going to dry up or get prohibitively expensive. And some people just don't want to bother with emulation either because of stability or they want to use their old carts. Or they want to have a modern output like HDMI without dealing with the cost of scalers like Framemeister or OSSC. It's more options, and as long as the options are quality it's a good thing. We're not talking about piece of shit options like Hyperkin which are shit hardware running inaccurate emulators. FPGA systems like the Super Nt definitely are legit alternatives.

>>5942119
You might have an argument if FPGA devs had access to the original chip schematics. They don't, so they have to do their best to mimic the observed behavior of the chips instead. That's emulation.

>>5942140
You can keep thinking whatever you want, you are free to convince yourself of something false, and to keep hiding in the semantics of a word. Just don't talk about "emulation" of these systems to people who have been working on FPGAs for years so that they don't laugh at you.

>>5942170
You're the one getting hung up on semantics and trying to redefine words for some autistic reason. Even the MiSTer devs themselves call it emulation.

>>5941904
It is emulation. What the term means in your little zoomer mind is irrelevant. Just look at the mental gymnastics you have to go through to kidsplain away that term you're so embarrassed of.

>>5942041
>None of us have ever used anything other than emulators

>paying for emulation

>>5941416
what is this

>>5942041
And despite all those mental gymnastics your brain is a weak as ever. What a loser.

Love seeing collectors and resellers shaking.

>>5942368
Love seeing children seething. Day in, day out, year after year. It gives me pleasure.

>>5941416
Fuck is this?

>>5942502
It's called a nuc.

>>5942368
Shit dude, I wish the resellers would be shaking. Then I could expand my collection for cheap, like when you could actually find games cheap at yard sales. If those mini consoles from the original companies don't push down prices, FPGA consoles sure as hell aren't gonna do it.

>>5941269
>If you own a MISTer there is no reason to own an early 90’s console.
I like the boxes they come in.

>>5941416
Intel based NUC doesn't compare to the response time of FPGA

>>5942140
>You might have an argument if FPGA devs had access to the original chip schematics.
Some do. The MiSTer SNES FPGA was based on Byuu's Higan work and it's pretty good .. the Neo Geo core was based on reverse engineering and using a microscope to look at actual Neo Geo chips. A lot of MiSTer FPGA programmers try to get things as accurate as possible. Some cores are in a better state than others, but the main ones people want to play are pretty good now.

>>5942913
>Some do. Here are examples of ones that don't
kek

>>5941943
You can say it all you want but you can't make it true. FPGAs are emulating other systems. Therefore FPGAs are emulators. We're not going to redefine the dictionary so Analogue can sell more $200 emulators.
>>5942912
FPGA doesn't compare to the response time of run ahead.

>>5941269
Where do I put the cartridges anon

>>5941269

I plan on using one of these devices to build a CPS-2 based arcade machine.

Love how in this thread the pro FPGA people are using good arguments, explaining things and clearly know what they’re talking about and the rest are just using as hominems. Tells you all you need to know really.

>>5943270
>Love how ITT the babies are parroting bullshit and getting livid when called out and the rest are keking
Me too

>>5943271
Cope, software babby.

Will always be superior

>>5943302
White LEDs or bust. Anything else is tacky.

>>5943290
18+

>>5941269
NOT. RETRO.

From my experience being in the mister community most people who have one are using it alongside original hardware as well. As usual /vr/ is completed fucking clueless.

>>5943381
Emulation talk about 80s systems is /vr/

Remember /vr/ =/= retro.

>>5942170
cope.

>>5943360
Nice selfie.

>>5943305
All LEDs are tacky, as are cases with gamer windows.

I mean, sure, you can get closer to the original hardware if you want. But a lot of emulators are damn good now adays. Just look at Blast 'Em: it's so accurate it can run stuff no other Genesis emulator can run, including Fairlight demos.

Add to that the fact that the Pi 4 is INCREDIBLY powerful... I can do Dreamcast games on it. And it's cheap! FPGAs are cool, but they are implementations, so they rely on whoever built it to be accurate, they;'re not just automatically accurate. How are the implementations on this thing? Good? Up to date? Does it support more than like 5 consoles?

>>5941269
Honestly, if you don't already have a crt and original hardware, I agree. Official USB controllers are all around and the premium isn't worth it for someone just starting out.

>>5942913
Are you a teenager?

Does mister supports 4k texture packs, savestates, scan line and other filters?

>>5941269
Hardware is usually cheap, if not you can pick up the Japanese version of a console for next to nothing with a flashcart/softmod it.

Every console has an easy way to remove regionlocks and you don’t have to resort to this zoomer trash.

>>5942119
>>5942979
Emulate has a specific meaning when applying to hardware architecture, which is using software to imitate hardware. Hardware clone systems do not fall under that definition. FPGAs do not fall under that definition, because imitate means it's not the same. If someone made an OS that was 99.9% similar to Windows, it would not be called an imitation but a clone. FPGA is cloning hardware in software.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/emulate

to imitate (a particular computer system) by using a software system, often including a microprogram or another computer that enables it to do the same work, run the same programs, etc., as the first.

Emulators imitate rather than recreate because they do not process logic the same way the real deal would. They take shortcuts.

>>5944104
based dictionary user

>>5943574
>no u

>>5944104
FPGSs emulate official hardware, therefore they’re emulators.

>>5944104
>or another computer that enables it to do the same work,
lmao your link disproves your entire post

>>5944247
No they don't - they clone therefore they're clones.
>>5944338
But it's not another computer, it's another NES (albeit in unauthorized one).

Think about this - when they manufactured NES consoles, was every NES created "emulating" the first prototype NES? No, every one of them was a new NES. There could be theoretical, atomic differences between them on the nano-scale, but they were all adhering to the quality standards expected of a real NES. If a FPGA filled those same standards would you then agree that it is a clone and not an "emulator"? (Not that I'm conceding a badly made clone is an emulator which is still a different concept).

>>5944373
>going through these ridiculous semantics because you're desperately seeking validation from clueless nostalgia-fags with a stigma against emulation
sad tbqh

>>5944373
Your point has already been addressed in this thread. But anyway,
>If a FPGA filled those same standards would you then agree that it is a clone and not an "emulator"?
No.
Clone and emulate are synonymous, to start with. Clone usually meaning a perfect emulation.
Secondly, when Nintendo makes different hardware revisions they are not trying to replicate the previous hardware. They actually improved on their hardware over various revisions.

All current FPGA projects attempt to exactly replicate a particular hardware revision of a chosen target, even including their particular flaws. This is an ideological difference from what Nintendo was doing because the goal is not to have software compatibility, but to exactly replicate a previous system. And the proper word for that is emulation. That is etymologically and grammatically correct, and no amount of insistence from FPGA developers will change it. Calling it "implementation", is incorrect and falls under the category of technical jargon. Jargon is useful under many instances, but in this case it has become disingenuous when FPGA developers insist this is "not emulation" when if the people buying the products knew what was going on they would very likely disagree with that assessment.

I spent a heap of money on flashcarts and many of the videos I have seen show that there are inaccuracies. I want one to put in my mini arcade cab for the early arcade games but there is a lot of hassles with connecting an rgb crt and the ram situation so I think that by the time they sort out all the bugs that there could be better hardware out. With old hardware you just plug it into a crt and it works while on the mister you have to stuff around with square or rectangle pixels. If I had no consoles then I would get a mister.

>>5944408
The semantics people are the ones denying well-established norms. Also that was my first post in the thread, I'm not the other guy.
>Clone and emulate are synonymous, to start with. Clone usually meaning a perfect emulation.
Rubbish. I think what you guys are doing is the same old idiocy as interpreting the words in a common way of speaking it and NOT the technical way they are used in computer terminology or in this context. "it's like it so therefore you could say emulating so it's an EMULATOR"... no that's not how it fucking works with technical terms that are specifically used for something else.
>Secondly, when Nintendo makes different hardware revisions they are not trying to replicate the previous hardware. They actually improved on their hardware over various revisions.
I didn't say shit about hardware revisions nigger, I said when they're literally replicating the exact same hardware. They're using the same cpu, the same ram, the exact same in every way. But every piece of hardware is in some way different at a certain level. They have to do quality control checks on the hardware and the results won't come out the exact same. They're trying to achieve an exact ideal of the original equipment which can't ever actually exist.
>That is etymologically and grammatically correct, and no amount of insistence from FPGA developers will change it.
It is not correct in any fucking way except by willful misinterpretation of the word "emulate" by you.
>Jargon is useful under many instances, but in this case it has become disingenuous when FPGA developers insist this is "not emulation" when if the people buying the products knew what was going on they would very likely disagree with that assessment.
Perhaps people are smarter than you imagine and you should allow them to use the ONLY CORRECT and VALID meaning of the term, not try to "protect" them from what you believe they would or wouldn't think.

>>5944228
>Make post calling you a babby
>Response is posting a photo implying I’m a baby
Wew. Pot calling the kettle.

>>5944454
You legitimately have autism.

>>5944454
>They're trying to achieve an exact ideal of the original equipment which can't ever actually exist.
The difference is you are emulating this act, rather than being the first one to do it. Do we need to start talking about guitars again?

why not just get a mini itx? you can use to play modern shit as well.
>inba i only play retro
come on, at some point you will want to check at least some PS2 or GC titles.

>>5944484
For me one of the biggest advantages of FPGA is the instant response after power on. Sit down, press power, title screen instantly appears. "zero" lag, zero tearing, and "zero" configuration. I tend to tinker with settings trying to get things perfect, an FPGA side-steps all of that. So would a flash cart + original hardware, but that is not an option for everything.

>>5943270
FPGA? More like FPGAY

>>5944463
>be baby
>cry like baby
>think like baby

>>5944548
Please prove me wrong without resorting to retard-speak and antiquated memes ty.

To everyone saying an FPGA is not an emulator because the circuitry architecture is being recreated on the hardware level, most console developers released PC-interfaceable hardware that was not a consumer console but a board with the necessary chips arranged differently to allow for debug polling, screen capture, or direct hardware access to various chips. These devices would still play the games as their execution architecture was identical, but they were a different implementation of the hardware. These systems were referred to as emulators. A prime example is the IS-CGB-EMULATOR, Intelligent Systems's GameBoy Color emulation system. Emulation is not just a software term.

>>5944512
USB controller lag so it’s not truly lawless

>>5944484
>some PS2 or GC titles
So...retro, right?

>>5941269
It's not identical and it's also soulless.

>>5944595
They don't have to use USB. You can make an FPGA box that uses original controllers.

>>5944565
The gameboys are literally connected to that machine dumbass, that's how they work, by running through the actual device. Even though "emulator" or "hardware emulator" has been used to describe some hardware functions - such as (very rarely) flashcarts - it makes no difference to what emulation vs clone means in videogames. The only issue is whether the FPGAs could be emulation because of how they're designed and my only input in this discussion has been to prove why they are not.

Also let me ask you something - why the fuck are you going so far out of your way, to outrageous examples, to try to prove that FPGAs are actually emulation? They're not emulation as the term has always applied in videogaming, period. Not anymore than a flashcart is.

>>5944104
>emulate has a specific meaning
No it doesn't. It just means you're attempting to recreate the features of another system. It can be high level or low level. It can be just mimicking an API despite what WINE's acronym would try to tell you. It can be purely software or it can be helped along by hardware.

The PS3 emulated the PS2. There was never a point, even in the first gen PS3, that 100% of the PS2 hardware was present in the PS3.
The original PS3 had the EE and the Graphics Synthesizer but things relating to audio were handled by Cell in software. That's Emulation.
The second gen PS3's didn't have an EE which was now being emulated in software but they still had the Graphics Synthesizer. That's emulation.
Later PS3's had neither the EE or the Graphics Synthesizer and did 100% of everything in software. That's emulation.

FPGA is emulation. The FP thing should be a big clue for you. We've already seen these solutions patched to handle games better which also means they aren't 100% binary compatible low level emulation of original hardware.

>>5941904
>The developers of FPGA implementations themselves say that this is not emulation.

Hardware Emulation is not Software Emulation, but it is still emulation.

>>5944565
Stop talking about reality. You're scaring the children.

>>5944729
>No it doesn't. It just means you're attempting to recreate the features of another system.
You're just an idiot.

>>5945206
Did you not read my post or are you just so determined to live in your delusions and ignore any counter evidence? The GB has to be connected to that machine for it to work. It's not "emulating" the GB at all. That dude is larping as if he knows shit. He is lying through his teeth when he says that devkit hardware was known as "emulators".

>>5941947
>They don't, so they have to do their best to mimic the observed behavior of the chips instead. That's emulation.
No that's reverse engineering.

>>5945395
I've been in the hobby console dev scene for over 15 years dude, development hardware throughout the console market is routinely labeled as emulation. Intelligent Systems and Cross Products, to name a few, employ this nomenclature often. Stop being a jackass and accept that you're wrong. The literal industry agrees with me.

FPGA is hardware emulation, plain and simple, just like countless development and debug kits. Software emulation is no different, in that it creates software pathways through the host system by which native executables for embedded systems can be dynamically recreated in realtime. The FPGA is just doing it with programmed hardware gates rather than via software computations. Your FPGA Sega Genesis is not an M68000 connected to a TMS9918, Z80, and YM2612. It is a gate array that has been so programmed as to recreate the functionality and flow of these chips and architecture, but the system is not these chips, nor this architecture, it is a chip or series of chips that have been reprogrammed to execute compatible binaries. Seethe all you want but your lack of understanding of hardware and especially the console development industry is just too painfully obvious.

>>5941406
> what is an FPGA and why should i care

>>5945902
Not educated in CS and/or Electrical engineering

>>5944427
>Clone and emulate are synonymous
You really have zero idea of what you're talking about, do you?

>>5945902
>I've been in the hobby console dev scene for over 15 years dude,
Using this type of hardware or anything close? Care to give any details then? Hardware like that was bought by professional game developers. Nobody gives a shit if you wrote a little program for your GBA.
>routinely labeled as emulation.
Then how come noone can produce a single example of it? Once again emulation of something like a flash cart or drive to pretend it's that item is not the same as emulating a system. All we want is some examples of this.
>Your FPGA Sega Genesis is not an M68000 connected to a TMS9918, Z80, and YM2612.
From a computing engineering perspective yes they are the equivalent in terms of functionality and hence a clone. Even if you wanted to call it hardware emulation at least put the "hardware" part in it, so you're not intentionally misleading and confusing people by making them think it's going to be different to original hardware.

Look at it this way dude: a flash cart and those compact disc drives like gdemu are given the name emulation or hardware emulation right? However supposing if someone made a single cartridge and put a single game on it, whether it be a repro or just a brand new cartridge using some different chips to normal but with the same single cartridge result. Would you then call that an "emulator"? It would have different parts in it right? What if you were able to produce a replacement optical drive for the dreamcast, would you call that a gd-rom drive "emulator" just because it had different internals? Of course not, it'd be another dreamcast drive. I hope you can see now how silly your argument is.

>>5946010
yeah I looked at that dude's post and it was just so ridiculous. "Clone and emulate are synonymous" - where do you even begin, and that's just one sentence. I thought of saying something like he had no clue but then he's probably just going to say "no I know all about this, you have no clue", so I thought forget it.

>>5945392
>ignores what I wrote
>calls me a name
Wow you really blew me the fuck out. Meanwhile emulation still just means attempting to recreate something. Doesn't even have to be recreating hardware, and it doesn't have to be accomplished only in software.
If you think a PS3 isn't emulating a PS2 because it has a physical on die recreation of the PS2's old GPU you're just plain wrong.

Like it or not were going to have to use these things when consoles finally kick the bucket eventually

>>5946137
>they are the equivalent in terms of functionality and hence a clone
They aren't though which is why they've had to be patched at least twice to better emulate the console.
Attempting low level emulation via FPGA is still emulation. The P in FPGA isn't in the acronym by accident.
You can preach about the inherit benefits of such and approach. You can claim it will eventually have 100% compatibility with all byte code it's trying to emulate. It's still an emulator, even if it's eventually perfect.

>>5946162
Wrong kiddo, I know how to solder and diagnose and repair, 30 more years is all I need with these and I'll be dead.

>>5946137
>Would you then call that an "emulator"?
Yes, because it is attempting to exactly replicate something else instead of being only being compatible.

If you were doing the same thing with a GD-ROM drive it would be accurate to say it was an emulation of the previous drive.

If you release a piece of hardware and admit that exact replication is not your goal, but instead it is to do new and different things then it's not proper to call it emulation. This is why flash carts don't get called emulation very often because they can do a very different thing the originals can't. But when anyone tries to explain how they work that nasty word comes up again describing that a flash cart is emulating the original ROM chips of the cartridge.

FGPAs are hardware emulation. There's nothing wrong with that.

>>5946173
How fucking retarded are you? Just saying "it's emulation, low level emulation is still emulation, FPGA has P in it meaning programmable" are not arguments. You didn't address anything I said or make any relevant points.

"The P in FPGA isn't in the acronym by accident".

What the hell are you talking about? That's really meant to be an argument? Because it was programmed it must be emulation? The programming here is no different to schematics of the NES and how its components are put together. Get outta here with that fucking tripe.

I came here because I thought I might learn something. What a wasted Sunday afternoon.

>>5946205
>Yes, because it is attempting to exactly replicate something else instead of being only being compatible.
No, it would be completely compatible, it would just be an unauthorized drive/cartridge, nobody in their wildest dreams would call it an emulator. If someone produced bluray discs in an unauthorized way, would you call those bluray discs "emulators"? Please don't be ridiculous.
>If you were doing the same thing with a GD-ROM drive it would be accurate to say it was an emulation of the previous drive.
No it wouldn't. It would be an unauthorized drive or a 3rd party drive or a gd-rom clone, noone would ever call it an emulator. Same as noone would call a 3rd party controller an "emulator".
>If you release a piece of hardware and admit that exact replication is not your goal, but instead it is to do new and different things then it's not proper to call it emulation. This is why flash carts don't get called emulation very often because they can do a very different thing the originals can't.
Are you kidding me? You have it exactly backwards. Flash carts are often called hardware emulation because they don't act like normal carts. Normal third-party/bootleg carts are never called emulators. .

>>5944646
>Not anymore than a flashcart is.
There are people on this board who will sincerely argue to the death that a flashcart on actual hardware is emulation. I think you're wasting your time.

>>5946218
You are confusing the words emulator, emulate, and emulation. If you can't even keep that straight there's no point in talking to you.

Why would you not just use Cycle Accurate Emulation with Runahead? It's LITERALLY the same results but better.

>>5945395
Top kek kid. I've used many dev tools that were called emulators. No amount of zoomer crying and bullshitting can change the facts. It's hilarious how you faggots get so triggered by a word that you simply deny reality. Seethe harder you ignorant underage fuck.

>>5941269
Unfortunately there's no point discussing FPGAs on /vr/, I'm an electronics engineer and the whilst MiSTer project is pretty incredible you will be arguing symantics with the lay person until you are blue in the face. It's just not worth it. Hot damn is the Neo Geo core nice, CPS1 and CAVE gen 1 are right around the corner too. Anyone else getting a Blisster?

>>5946298
Runahead is awesome, yes, but remember: you can only advance as many frames as delay frames the game had with respect to the press on the controller. So what you do is compensate the external lag by eliminating the internal lag.
In other words, if a game doesn't have frames of delay in the response in the original hardware, you can't use runahead to compensate for the lag caused by the emulator, the operating system and the TV.
Well, you can use it, but you'll see how nice the audio sounds boy.
>>5946162
And it will all be free and open source forever. Not sure why people are hating

>>5947917

Personally I am holding out for a LL Cool Joy but I may be holding out forever given that guys history. You think its worth just getting a Blisster if I only want to connect a Saturn controller?

>>5948959
>You think its worth just getting a Blisster if I only want to connect a Saturn controller?
No. Just get a USB to Saturn adapter or a USB Sega Saturn controller. Blisster/LL Cool Joy nobody will ever notice the difference with USB.

>>5941775
>God damn I am so stupid I didn’t realize I could’ve bought a raspberry pi this whole time!!!!
Yeah, you are pretty dumb for that.

>>5947917
>i like to larp and i really like overpriced emulation consoles
ok?

>>5947917
>I'm an electronics engineer
>i argue symantics with the lay person
Sounds legit. Is symantics some chinkshit AV knock of?

Brainlets don't understand just how accurate FPGAs are.
An FPGA can even be MORE authentic than actual official hardware for example the crappier models of genesis.

>>5949557
>Brainlets don't understand that FPGAs aren't magically "accurate"

>>5945995
Uses hardware emulation rather than software emulation.

its just werks

>>5949450
He knows how to spell it, it just came out wrong. It happens people all the time you fucking tard.

I’m gay

>>5941775
>he spent $250 to emulate some old ass Nintendo games

>>5949557
>FPGA can even be MORE authentic than actual official hardware
your definition of authentic must be very unique.

>>5941936
They're 100% correct.

>>5944565
>terminology never evolves

>>5949746
>He knows how to spell it
>He
Only way you could know that is if you are he samefag fucktard

>>5950174
Basically. Stupid kids make up new meanings for words all the time but technical definitions don't change unless there's a valid reason and it's agreed by adults who understand the technology.

>>5945902
>hardware emulation
LMAO this faggot just made up a new phrase. Which contradicts itself, too. Emulation is a software concept. Come back when you have a doctorate in computer science. Playing JRPG romhacks for 15 years doesn't mean you've been in the "hobby console dev scene" you loser.

>>5951210
>being so young you've never heard the term "hardware emulation". Being a zoomer for 15 years doesn't mean anything other than you've been a zoomer for 15 years.

>>5951203
>Only way you could know that is if you are he samefag fucktard
Yes, retro boards are notoriously overwhelmingly female

>>5951203
You are a dumbass. You have no idea of the level of people you're arguing with, some who are actual electronic engineers and people with decades of experience in the industry. Walking around with your tail in the air because you're an "adult" and read about emulation last year after someone told you about it in college, trust me you don't know absolute shit about computer terminology.

>>5951210
Honestly I have heard of the term "hardware emulation" before, pedantically it's not quite a correct term but it has been used for things like acting like a cd rom drive as I was trying to patiently explain earlier in the thread. That is not the same way they're trying to use it here, for something that is clearly a clone console.

>>5942060
Hardware emulation is still emulation.

>>5952556
But if it's emulation Johnny, then what is the original system? An FPGA isn't a system anymore than a breadboard is.

>>5949557
Everyone fucking understands that FPGAs can be incredibly accurate. The problem is that there's zero point to them when all the FPGA shit is for consoles that are already common as fuck and cheap as fuck. Who is the target audience supposed to be, besides "dude who just wastes money because he's got nothing better to do with it"? What person who would be interested in shit like FPGAs wouldn't already have a super nintendo or genesis?

>>5952631
>RBG as standard
>Native HDMI output (if required).
>Savestates, gameshark, cheats built in.
>Can be replaced when it ages
>Possible rom loading built in.

Welcome to the future of original hardware gaming. You may as well embrace it.

>>5941269
God damn this shit is so KINO

>>5952556
I thought that was called simulation.

>>5952672
>RGB as standard
lmao no, enjoy needing to buy another add-on for RGB output.
>Native HDMI output (if required).
Far cheaper to just buy an OSSC that can do HDMI for ALL your consoles rather than this awkward shit where you need specialty hardware for every single system. Plus if you're going all-HDMI, you'd need to still get an OSSC or equivalent anyway since not all your consoles are available as FPGA memes
>Can be replaced when it ages
not as easy or cheap to fix/replace as the normal consoles that you already fucking own anyway
>savestates, rom loading, gameshark
everdrive, and also nowhere near close enough to justifying the price of these things

>>5952672
>Welcome to the future of original hardware gaming.
Cool, casualization has touched vintage games. What else is new?

>>5941269
>$300 for a little meme gadget that does the same thing as any PC
LOL no

So are official versions of a console from the factory just emulations of the master original version sitting on the CEO's desk?

>>5953457
No. They're from the actual code like the original version that is nowhere near the idiot CEO's desk.

>>5952530
Top kek kid. I know exactly the level of people I'm laughing at. Retarded little zoomers. There are very few of us who are actual engineers with decades of experience. You aren't one and none of the zoomers I've made fun of ITT are either. It's hilarious how hugely you shitstains LARP and project. Stay mad little bitch.

>>5941269
Does it use all the same chips and hardware as original? If no then bugger off, it's just another stupiud emubox for retards.

>>5941269
But collecting is fun, putting roms in emulator isn't.

>>5941269
Real hardware is best with multicarts and flash drives

>"NOOOOO FPGAS ARE NOT EMULATORS!!!!"
>mental olympics for ages
>no one actually discussing the accuracy of these things vs their software counterparts
This board fucking sucks.

>>5954045
Most people haven’t tried FPGAs that’s why. If they had, they would know it feels exactly like real hardware. I have been playing Genesis for ages and know the sound and many games completely by heart...so it’s easy to tell.

>>5953425
Perfectly replicating hardware isn't casualization. Caring about "muh original" to the point where you oppose replicating the good is casualization, because then you're caring less about the videogames and it's more about the feeling special. Oops your gatekeeping is showing.

>>5941904

>>5954045
They aren’t substantially more accurate and they cost more. The benefit of supporting projects like this is that eventually we can get accurate hardware based emulators of nearly anything. Including all of those logic based arcade games we currently cannot emulate, older PCs, Win9X systems and so on. I donate monthly to a variety of patreons, I’ve sent Byuu and the libretro team stuff in the past. And I own a variety of hardware recreations. I don’t really buy hard copies of games I mainly use flash carts or my Xeon PC to emulate. It’s important this stuff gets better and it has enjoyable applications right now. But if the money doesn’t flow into projects emulation stagnates like it has with many consoles. Interest and money is what drives things to get made.

>>5954047
>>5954045
You're missing the point. The entire draw of emulation is that it's free and can be done on the hardware you already have. An FPGA can be indistinguishable from real hardware, but it can cost several times more. So then what the fuck is the point instead of just using the real hardware anyway? Especially when the type of people who would even have the slightest interest in this stuff would most likely ALREADY HAVE THE ORIGINAL CONSOLES ANYWAY.

Please tell me, who is buying a Mega SG who doesn't already own a Genesis? And if not, why the fuck are you paying like 200 dollars for one when you can get a Genesis for around 1/10th that price?
There's no actual utilitarian purpose for this fucking thing. It's just a trendy boutique product for hipsters to spend money on because they don't have anything better to do with it, I suppose.

>>5954054
>They aren’t substantially more accurate and they cost more.
False. With FPGAs there is no reason why you get the exact same thing. Especially in terms of lag, which is a fundamental part of software emulators.

>>5954081
It’s exactly this. A collectors item. I own one, a super NT and even everdrives. I still mainly play on my Pc and 3DS because convenience.
>>5954083
This just isn’t true though, it’s a hardware recreation and the existing cores are less accurate than software emulators and have more input lag. All major consoles of that specific area are emulated with less input lag than original hardware. I don’t know why you’re getting so defensive about this. There’s many games that don’t boot on the mister cores still and there’s still updates coming out.

>>5944646
it is emulation. you make yourself look dumb man.

>>5954083
>>5954087
Just to add to my post. People like this genuinely upset me. If you actually owned a Mister FPGA you’d know it wasn’t nearly 100% compatible and that there is ample input lag on specific games. Have you tried Star fox on it? How about Mario Land GB? Or even just Pokemon Red? What about plain old Super Metroid? The purpose of these things isn’t necessarily 100% compatibility so you can play video games. That’s a bonus of the project so they can have funding to further it’s development. In the near future to use newer versions of cores I will have to buy another one of these and my mister and modules will be outdated. And that’s Ok. That’s progress and I will buy a new one. If you owned the device and used it you’d realize this. MegaDrive, SNES, PCFx and other similar consoles are well emulated. The sharp x68, C64, ZX, Virtual Boy and others are not at all. There’s hundreds of arcade games that are completely unplayable today because of their design. Unplayable as in no working original hardware left, poor documentation and not able to be emulated. That’s what this project is aimed at. The SNES and MegaDrive compatibility is a fun bonus but not at all the focus of this project.

>>5945902
From what I've seen you could implement the 68000 etc in fpga using a configuration that mimicks the exact transistor structure of the original but another less accurate way is to create your own structure based on reverse engineering. I would consider mimicking the exact transistors a replication rather than emulation because it is a different category of simulation.

>>5954145
You’re a pathetic person arguing semantics. Everyone calls it hardware emulation because that’s what it is. That’s what SOCs have been called and historically similar devices like Dos compatible Mac cards, Amiga booster cards and others have been called that too. It isn’t the exact hardware period. It’s hardware emulation. Ideally yeah it would all be perfect and great. That’s unlikely to ever be the case and there is a differentiation between the two. People don’t call replacement C64 keyboard daughterboards exactly the same, they say they’re hardware emulated. I can think of dozens of examples where this is the case. This is really only an argument on this specific board

>>5954087
>>5954102
You are all confused and misinformed. FPGAs implemented properly are direct hardware and could not have any input lag, and especially not input lag greater than in emulation. To create the Super NT they had to delay the polling rate so it would match real hardware exactly. Software emulators are inherently laggy because of the fundamental way they work. When you talk about how "All major consoles are emulated with .... less input lag than original hardware" it's clear you don't have a monkies what you're talking about. First of that's not even cycle accurate emulation, that's plain old vanilla emulation that you can do runahead in. Runahead is a hack, it cracks open the rom to runs ahead and then goes back again creating mayhem in the process. Sometimes it works well, other times it creates all kinds of bugs and havoc, and those are the things you can visibly observe. Nobody could claim that was the sort of accurate emulation we're talking about. As if anyone should need confirmation of that, here's byuu himself talking about the INHERENT lag:

https://articles.byuu.org/latency

Original hardware effectively doesn't have input lag, it depends however how much the game polls the controller so by some measures of input lag yes it does have some. Guess what? The game is intentionally programmed like that. That is why any serious attempt at accuracy will have input lag.

I don't actually own a Mister_FPGA yet because I have most of the consoles I want already. But I'm in the market for when things improve a bit, and it will be nice to have a replica to fall back on when the original consoles kick the bucket.

>>5954181
>I don't actually own a Mister_FPGA yet because I have most of the consoles I want already. But I'm in the market for when things improve a bit, and it will be nice to have a replica to fall back on when the original consoles kick the bucket.
This says everything right here. It has input lag. And not an insignificant amount. I couldn’t tell you the technical details as to why, but it’s well known that it does. Ideally? Of course it wouldn’t. Again SNES and Genesis emulation isn’t really the focus of the project and it’d be ridiculous to devote significant time and resources so people can bing bang wahoo. You say implemented properly as if it’s some simple magic button we can hit to do these things. If it was it would’ve been done already. If you actually kept up with things you’d realize that Byuu praises runahead for having better latency. But for the most part the very minor increase on even the poorest of hardware is a moot point that I don’t think most people even understand.

>>5954186
>input lag ass pull

https://www.retrorgb.com/mister-hdmi-core-now-sub-1-frame-of-lag.html

>>5942053
Other way around, really. I know original hardware is better, but bringing over a duffle bag full of large, decaying plastic consoles as an adult is definitely more autistic than one tiny device.
A better comparison would be someone putting on a streaming movie and you insisting you go to a video rental store instead for the full, original, inconvenient experience.

>>5941269
desu it's placebo

What is a FPGA, how much does it cost and how does it compare to my already working raspberry pi or i7?

>>5955425
So you're saying it works?

>>5955696
As far as you're concerned they're all the same. Buzzwords that work in ways you couldn't comprehend.

>>5952614
The original system is whatever original hardware the FPGA is reprogrammed to emulate, gamer.

>>5942028
You think an FPGA can't do branch prediction?
lol.

>>5942034
It actually does.
Do you not know how transistor logic arrays work?
An FPGA is a configurable gate array.

This means it can literally be used to make a duplicate of of the transistors on a piece of hardware.

https://numato.com/blog/differences-between-fpga-and-asics/

>>5942112
>>5942201
>>5944784
It's not emulation.
An FPGA is configured to match the logic and frequency of the target system, essentially cloning it.
Provided you have enough information on the target system, and a strong enough FPGA, it is a perfect 1:1 transistor-level clone.

>>5955696
The raspberry pi or i7 play games using emulation so can't escape some lags and often other inaccuracies (especially if they're not the rare cycle accurate type). FPGAs are replicating hardware in hardware and in theory should be indistinguishable from the real thing. FPGAs have been made for individual consoles before (Super NT), now they are becoming possible for multiple ones in the same system.
>>5956187
I mean the original system in terms of the emulation. For example a x64 (modern PC) emulates a NES where the x64 is the original system and the NES is the system being emulated. With an FPGA it's not some other system normally, it's just the system in hardware.

>>5942101
https://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13185

Except they often DO have schematics of the original chips by decapping them and using an electron microscope to map out the logic arrays.

NES and SNES have both been decapped and fully mapped.

>>5942124
MiSTer's USB polling averages around 4~10ms, which is incredibly fast. And if that still bothers you, get a BlisSTer board or a SNAC which bypass USB completely and are <1ms and instant, respectively

>>5941416
These are actually based

>>5955696
>zoomer's first spoon-feeding

>>5956242
>in theory
WOAH, it’s almost as if things aren’t always perfect in real life

>>5954760
Yeah for that specific game. Many game’s have issues, the primary issue being increased input lag. It’s almost as if you’ve never used one and are just talking shit because you can

>>5956569
Do you have a couple of links where people complain about the MiSTER’s input lag?

>>5941269
Input lag

>>5956228
Why do you say "it can" and then pretend that means "they all do"?

>>5956234
>"transistor-level clone": 1 result
When you have to start making up terms to support your argument you know you've lost kiddo

>>5956639
Not an issue.

>>5956234
You would be cloning it if you made an exact copy of it using the same hardware but manufactured in 2019. Like if you collected together the relevant CPU, PPU, Sound chips, etc and fabricated new system PCBs to solder them to.

An FPGA is doing this by... wait for it....

wait for it...

EMULATING those chips and traces in the form of programmable gate arrays. That is the single most precise and correct word to describe what is happening. If you pick some other word you're just intentionally dancing around it because you don't want to say the trigger word.

>>5956785
>When you have to start making up terms to support your argument you know you've lost kiddo
You've got to be kidding me?

>>5956805
It's definitely emulating hardware.
However, using emulating nowadays connotes software emulation, and belittles the advantages FPGA has. By emulating hardware over software, you're closer, if not exactly reproducing, the system it clones.

>>5956826
Not even joking. Making up bullshit terms to "support" your argument is straight out of the idiots guide to loosing arguments.

>>5956934
>loosing

>>5956934
Dude you just admitted that you run off to google when anyone uses even the most absolute basic terms of electronics, you just lost whatever possible arguments there were to your side right there. As even small children who have no real interest in electronics know, a transistor is the fundamental building block of integrated circuits, including NES chips. In case you don't believe me.

https://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13661

I think I'm going to have a shower.

>>5956963
Top kek kid. More fail from the loser playbook. What I proved is that only one other person ever used your bullshit term "transistor level clone". I can only imagine how mad you must be to see your autistic kidplaining failing so hard

>https://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13661
>^ftransistor level clone
>Phrase not found
Epic! Yeah. Better go take that shower. Maybe it will help you cool down your tard rage and wash away those tears. God damn what a loser.

>>5957095
I understood what he means, even though I haven’t literally seen the exact wording ‘transistor level clone’ but it’s pretty clear if you know a bit about electronics

>>5957116
What "he" means is irrelevant. All that matters is whether what he says actually means anything to anyone except him and the voices in his head. Which it doesn't. That's why you've never seen that exact wording. Because it's just some bullshit term made up by some autistic fuck to avoid using the correct term. Because that has a word that violently triggers him.

>>5957095
I knew exactly what he meant because I know what those words all mean and can understand what they mean together.

By going on nesdev and searching for a post by one of your idols to validate that this term is "legit" instead of just making the judgment yourself is very telling.

>>5957558
However, I still agree that this is a beating around the bush way of saying "hardware emulation".

>>5957558
Everyone knows what those words mean, even the zoomer who strung them all together to in a desperate attempt to avoid the stark fist of reality. When caught zooming his autism forced him to find something, anything, to try to validate his made up bullshit. He's now massively butthurt that a "transistor level clone" isn't actually a thing, but justifies it because muh "what I actually meant". At least his asspained lolcowery is amusing.

>>5957484
>avoid using the correct term. Because that has a word that violently triggers him.
Okay, let's pretend I have no clue what the argument is about. What exactly is the correct term he's allegedly avoiding?

>>5957681
Emulation. Poorfags loose their shit every time they're confronted with the fact it doesn't mean "ROM playing software"

>>5957095
What the actual fuck are you talking about? It's not a "term" at all, it's a description. I'm also not the person who used those words to describe it and I don't know why you assume I was. The entire reason why you can't find that sort of language being used a lot is because it's effectively babby-speak to try to explain it in as simple terms possible to the clueless person. He was trying to dumb it down for you. That's why it's so ridiculous you to say you googled it and other people weren't talking about it. If you want to see a more adult version of what he was saying you could read some other posts of the thread:
>>5942041
>>5942913
>>5944373
Now stop pretending you know anything about this subject.

>>5958176
Why would "he" be trying to dumb it down for me when he's a retarded zoomer and I'm an adult with decades of experience who's used lot of hardware devices that are called emulators? Your pathetic kidplaining and samefagging is, well, pathetic.

>>5941269
>$300 meme gadget for hipsters
>does the same shit as literally any computer made in the last 15 years
wew lad

It's still emulation, no matter how you slice it. Just via hardware, not software.

Not trying to put down FPGAs (best form of emulation by far), but you can't call it "identical".

>>5958617
$300 may be very expensive for a poorfag emulating on a hand-me-down netbook but the type of emulation used in MiSTer is much better than the type you're using. In so many ways. If you have any legit need for hardware, and not being a casual fuck counts, $300 for all that is a great deal.

>>5959875
This.

Only poorfags who don't understand the technology are complaining.

What kind of idiot marketing loser names it that?
>we have this expensive emulation game machine but it lacks the name
>i have just the right name, mister
>oh jelly ouh lads mister it is

lmao I created this thread and I'm so proud I hit 200 replies

>>5943305
Old-style non-superbright oranges, greens or reds.

Do we really need to have threads like this every single day?

>>5960565
The project originally began as an FPGA implementation of the Atari ST called MiST. This is an expanded open source continuation of that project

>>5960959
>posted nine days ago

>>5944729
/thread

>>5960565
>open source
>marketing

>>5958630
nah. Depending on the machine, if the bios is properly dumped and the timings are more or less in sync with original hardware, i'd consider an FPGA more of a "version" since many consoles seem to have differing components which lead to variations in output.
It's not a very black and white issue, because unless your board is designed to accommodate carts and discs, it will need emulation to function.

>>5941269
>costs way less
Let's see. I got two of my NESes for under $10 together in the last four years by not using ebay.
I got two genesis systems plus a Sega CD for a total of $40.
I got a Super Famicom for $6 on ebay, listed as broken. Replaced the fuse and it worked.
Total cost so far: $56.
Cost had I only bought one of each system:
roughly $25-$30 including the Sega CD.

Don't go full retard and pay full ebay prices.

>>5963879
Oh yeah and I s-video modded one of those genesis systems and sold it on ebay for $90. So i ended up with a Genesis, a Sega CD, and nearly $50 (minus maybe $2 of components at most).

>>5963879
>>5963890
>I have peculiar experiences.
>therefore everyone has same experiences

>>5964042
>im an eBaby
>therefore everyone has to be an eBaby

>>5964473

OP here. You are a dumb fuck try and buy a neo aes for under $200. Also feel free to buy flashcarts for all your consoles. Moron. Fuck you

>>5941269
It takes many code snippets from emulators and not OG chips.
So is only as good as an emulation.
Meaning not really.

>>5965367
you need to eat something? maybe tug one out?
don't be like this.

>>5965367
>ESL here i am a dumb fuck
I've bought many for under $200 eBaby

>>5941269
What about n64

>>5963681
This, it’s either a version or a clone but it’s not emulation, sorry hoarders but science is facts.

>>5966301
>science is when i eat the paste because they say you are what you eat and i want to grow up to be a pony

>>5941269
Emulation will never, ever compare to muh feels of plugging in the actual console, slapping in a cartridge, and playing with the original controller like the developers intended. 4chan benchracers don't like muh feels as an argument because they're impossible to quantify, but it's just not the same.

quick reminder. this is for faggots.

>>5968098
Then it's perfect for you.

>>5968153
im gay

>>5951210
>>hardware emulation
>LMAO this faggot just made up a new phrase
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_emulation
>Come back when you have a doctorate in computer science
I love when faggots pull the "I'll act like I know what I'm talking and tell everyone who disagrees with me to educate themselves" move

>>5941269
Still not 100% accurate to original hardware, so what's the fucking point

>>5968692
>It costs a fraction of what the original hardware does?
>It can be made without a time machine?
>Zoomers like you couldn't tell the difference?
Zoom back to facebook little autistic zoomer

Its obviously the future of vr. People are just mad because they bought expensive shit

>>5968994

This. The butt hurt in this thread is hilarious. The mister is cycle accurate for several consoles at the end of the day.

It's absolutely a good option but collectors often times don't do it just because they want more authentic than emulation playback, but because they just like owning it.
I mean, it's very easy to pirate games on original hardware for most systems and yet people still buy physical copies of rare titles.
Many of us will buy rare games and then never use the actual disc or cartridge in order to preserve them (or perhaps we'll dump them and play the backup).
There's definitely room for both collecting original hardware, FPGAs and emulation.

bump

>>5970449
>bump
zoom

>>5970487
>implying

>>5960482
>own the real deal
>don't want to invest in whatever this meme gadget is
>somehow i'm poor now
man those are some mental gemnastics, shill this crap on reddit they'll love it there

>>5952631
The main reason I have any interest is NeoGeo and Arcade games.

>>5970993
prove me wrong zoomer