/vr/ - Retro Games

>>5907738
>Zelda
>RPG
Lol sure let's do this again.

>>5907738
So you wanted SEGA or SONY to make a Zelda clone? You’re a weird guy.

>>5907748
They both did make their own clones, but they were 2D. If they had done 3D they would have been wobbly low resolution messes anyways.

Actually a decent question. Sega could have made something awesome for the Dreamcast. And I somehow still haven't played it, but doesn't Ape Escape use a similar setup for using items to OoT? Different kind of game, but I'm drawing a blank as to anything more similar on PS1.

>>5907756
Okay. Fine. Glad OP doesn’t have the ability to change history then.

>>5907757
Isn't grandia ii kind of like this? I haven't played it yet desu

>>5907761
That's turn based, haven't played it myself, but I would assume it's different than Ocarina.

majoras mask is the best rpg
OOT is 2nd best

Brand loyalty is hard to replicate. And Miyamoto I guess.

PSO is better than Zelda anyway.

>>5907738
3D Zelda games are hard to make. You'd think that more people would make the effort given how popular they are but even as the years drag on there's barely any games that people would call flat out Zelda clones. There's a bunch of 2D ones, Alundra being a notable example for the PS1. There's a bunch of 3d action adventure games with superficial similarities if you really want to push it but nobody really stepped up to try to fill the same slot. Either nobody had the ambition, nobody was really interested, or the hardware wasn't really suited for it. Also Ocarina of Time was pretty fucking huge, something like Megaman Legends 1 and 2 only have a fraction of the length with much simpler geometry and no puzzle aspect to their dungeons.

>>5907756
>They both did make their own clones
Alundra and Soleil? They neither if them were made Sony and Sega directly.

>>5908065
Neither of them was made by Sony or Sega*

>>5908063
The PS1 was the king of RPGs though, so it's embarassing that Sony couldn't just make another one but just replace the battles with realtime combat and the traditional top down view with 3rd person 3D graphics. They were already experts at story writing, world building, puzzle solving, adventuring and other RPG parts, they just needed to change the combat and they could have easily had a competing game rather than losing the competition for the genre by default.

>>5908076
Your fallacy is assuming Zelda is an RPG indeed. It plays as an action game mechanically and since you progress in the game through items and not through stats (which don't even exist) it plays like an adventure game in the gameplay. Aka it's an action adventure.

>>5908086
Yeah it's another troll thread. How shocking.

>>5907738
Remember that OoT came out in late 98. The Dreamcast was a week away from launch in Japan and the PS2 was a little over a year away. By the time any answer to OoT would have been finished the Saturn/PSX would have been obsolete.

zoom zoom

>>5907738
Games that get lots of critical acclaim are rarely copied.
>Goldeneye 64
"Re-invents the FPS genre..."
"Most influential FPS ever...."
"Where it all began"
And yet the ONLY shooters to follow in GE's footsteps were: Perfect Dark, and the TimeSplitters franchise, i.e. the games that same group of developers went on to make. They influenced nobody
>Resident Evil 4
"Re-invents the shooting genre..."
"Before there was Gears of War, there was RE 4...."
"The game that influenced every FPS developer"
What mechanics from Resi 4 did COD /Battlefield implement? None. It did not influence anything.

you see this quite a lot, desu. Halo was more influential than Goldeneye. PC shooters influenced COD.
But then just because something doesnt influence something else doesnt mean its bad. Influence isnt everything. OOT is a masterpiece regardless of whether its copied or not

>>5907738
Dark Cloud was supposed to be but then it turned out to be a completely different genre

>>5909863
>And yet the ONLY shooters to follow in GE's footsteps were: Perfect Dark, and the TimeSplitters franchise
You forget first two Medal of Honor games. Also, Thief series' difficulty gimmick with varying mission goals for different diffulties.

>"Where it all began"
This, however, is untrue. Where "it" "all" "began" is Another World (PROMINENTLY featured on consoles, by the way), which got spun by Half-Life (with FadeToBlack's visual designs), from which followed stuff.
Goldeneye I didn't have much look into, but from the top of my head, it likely follows Dark Forces 1, which in turn, was probably more than a bit influenced by Flashback (hence, varying mission goals) and maybe Wolf3D/SpearofDestiny too.

Halo, at least in some capacity, is either continuation or retread of Pathways into Darkness, and thus represents something entirely independent of cinematic platformers.

>>5909863
to be fair Goldeneye had its multiplayer tacked on last minute by one guy

>>5909863
Actually along with Medal of Honor, Golden Eye created and influenced console fps, for better or worse.
RE4 wqs influencing on the subsequent RE game. Also I don't think it should be considered a shooter. Maybe a first person action adventure, with horror themes? Survival horrors are A-A, but RE4 at that point was hardly survive horror anymore.

>>5910627
>first person
Meant third person

>>5910370
>Dark Cloud was marketed to be but then it turned out to be a completely different genre
Fixed it for you

>>5909863
>And yet the ONLY shooters to follow in GE's footsteps were: Perfect Dark, and the TimeSplitters franchise, i.e. the games that same group of developers went on to make. They influenced nobody
wtf are you talking about? Half Life and the entire realistic shooter genre followed in GE's footsteps, the creators of Half Life even acknowledged being influenced by Goldeneye. You're just a N64 denier, so many PC fags simply can't imagine giving Nintendo credit for how much they developed the genre.

https://www.techspot.com/news/80948-valve-impressed-goldeneye-007-changed-half-life.html

>>5907757
Shenmue. It's like the 'cult' version of Zelda or other breakthrough games. Sega pretty much had an answer to everything: Phantasy Star, PSO, Virtua Series, 2k series, Sonic, Sonic Adventure, Panzer, Shining Force, HotD, etc... They just fucked every single last one of them up.

>>5908065
ICO was 'arthouse' Zelda. Originally intended for PS1.

>>5908076
Kingdom Hearts.

I mean, OOT isn't even my favorite game, far from it, but I love how it triggers a lot of anti-nintendo people in general.

>>5909863
Lol, Zelda, Goldeneye and RE4 completely changed games forever. They are still being copied to this day. One of the biggest series in recent times, Last of Us is a shittier version of RE4. The gameplay, 'storytelling', presentation etc... were things often imitated to make it one of the most copied games ever.

>>5910680
I can't understand how Naughty Dog games get so much praise. People tell me "but dude! Last of Us has great gameplay!" but to me it's still the same boring walking simulation with some tame stealth sections and the same boring, basic gunplay as Uncharted.

>>5910672
Maybe try 'triggering' people on /v/ or one of the many, many other boards full of that instead of doing it here? Also, if you need attention maybe try talking to your parents or making the personal changes needed for you to participate in society?

>>5910682
Yeah, it's really good at what it is, which is a mainstream product designed to easily entertain easily entertained people. It's very good at that, and surely even some 'hardcore gamers' can enjoy it, but if you compare the main gameplay to RE4, or the stealth elements to something like MGS, it's like comparing the latest pop music to Mozart.

They made plenty of games during that era that rivaled oot and were usually better games too.

Its actually really funny some people still act as if oot was amazing experiance or some shit.

Is Dark Cloud not a soft clone of Zelda published by Sony?

>>5910701
OoT remains pretty relevant to this day though, it's great for exposing tryhard contrarians.

>>5910701
Would you care to name a few? I'm specifically interested in ones who may not have released before Zelda, but at least whose development was complete prior to OoT's release. If there are much better options, I'd be interested in trying them.

>>5910701
what's amazing is that anyone would try to claim OoT isn't an amazing experience, because it was and is

>>5908086
But you play the role of Link, so it's a Role Playing Game.

>>5909863
>>5910680
Yeah, the first thing I think of when I think 'RE4 but today' is Uncharted and TLOU, which I think other franchises try to copy here and there. Very cinematic experiences that are relatively linear but feel open due to the graphics that always make you feel like you're out in the field even though you're in a relatively small map.

>>5910682
I love TLOU, it's one of my favorite PS3 games and one of very few shooters I can stomach, but I'd never say it has 'great gameplay'. It's a step up from Uncharted as it also incorporates some nice stealth sequences, but it really always just boils down to "hide behind thing & get up to shoot when something gets into view". Especially the parts where you're fighting human enemies are hilarious because you just shoot a guy, he dies, then another guy comes to investigate the corpse, so you shoot him too, and eventually you've got a great big corpse pile to reward your 'stealth' approach.

What makes it great is its presentation and storytelling, it makes you feel like you're in a movie. I don't think you should expect too much depth from AAA games anyways, people praise Assassin's Creed too but that just boils down to "press up and hold the auto-run button and the game plays itself".

>>5907738
>Zelda
>RPG
>journalists
Who fucking cares?

>>5909863
>Resi 4
>It did not influence anything.
What's it being a zoomer who can't recognize every third person shooter from the 7th gen was basically lifted from RE4 and Gears?

>>5908086
>It plays as an action game mechanically and since you progress in the game through items and not through stats (which don't even exist)
Items are a form of stats. Are you brainlet enough to be arguing that Zelda isn't a form of RPG?

>>5911048
It's bait, it's not worth arguing. Zelda is acknowledged as an action RPG by everybody, including the creator, with the only exception being basement dwelling contrarians who will never ever admit it has RPG elements no matter how hard you try.

>>5910415
Goldeneye was actually influenced by Virtua Cop, but ended up playing differently, mainly because on-rail shooter felt dated compared to what the 64 could do.
>>5910416
I didn't say it was bad, I'm a big Goldeneye fan. I'm just saying it did its own thing, was a big hit, but shooters ended up taking a different path to the 'arcadey' style of GE. Least of all the switch from right-stick-strafing to left-stick-strafing, which is basically copying WASD controls to a joypad.
>>5910680
Yeah in storytelling aspects, true. But in gameplay mechanics, in my opinion? Not so much
>>5910643
I'm not an n64 denier, i'm a big N64 fan. I've never played Half life but i have heard they were influenced by Goldeneye.
Things like being able to zoom, a limited HUD, nonlinear story mode, etc, are perhaps influences but IMO the only games that play like Goldeneye are PD and Free Radical's FPSs.
>>5910786
>>5910872
3rd person display is hardly revolutionary, and Resi 4 was 'action-horror', as opposed to 'survival-horror' because RE1 and RE0 on GC didnt sell so well so they made it more action-packed.
Action-horror did not catch on; indeed, survival-horror came back.

>>5910872
>>5910786
To be clear, I love RE4, one of my favourite games ever. But I don't think that style of game caught on. Shooting games in the late 00s/early 2010s very much followed the Counter-Strike / PC FPS style of shooter. COD was the FPS in town in the years following Resi 4.
Just my opinion.

>>5911226
Yeah but RE4 is not an FPS. It is an action adventure shooter and I'd argue it influenced that genre of games more than the horror genre specifically. Uncharted, The Last of Us, Gears of War, Mass Effect, GTA V, etc. The influence is not always as obvious because a lot of the things RE4 introduced have become industry standard. The mixture of third person adventuring and first person precision aiming was absolutely not common before RE4 (although I'm sure I'd be wrong if I said there was no game before it that tried it).

>>5907738
super metroid is the greatest rpg of all time tho

>>5910775
And you play the role of Soap McTavish in Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare. THAT was a great RPG.

>>5911375
That's an action game.

>>5907738
My fucking God why do they keep calling it an RPG and why do they keep overrating the fucking game anyways? Even if it did fit the RPG category it's not the best one by a mile. I have fond memories of games from my childhood but the praise OoT gets is on mental retardation level.

>>5907738
Can we please have one fucking thread on this board that isn't a fucking console war meme bait shitpost?

>>5907738
Zelda is not an RPG, because RPGs are games about choices with long-term consequences.
These can be as simple as choosing your class and party members, or as complex as marrying NPCs or making moral choices that influence your ending, or even choosing a non-combat character who can talk final boss to death.

Regardless, that's the entire point of what is an RPG - and Zelda doesn't do that. All choices you make in Zelda are short-term, you can't e.g. decide to play as a Warrior or Wizard, you can't truly be evil (you can't even kill chickens because you will be punished for that), and every playthrough will be more or less the same. You can decide to e.g. go sidequesting for heart pieces, but aside from increasing your health, this doesn't really change much - in a real RPG, sidequesting gives you experience points, which as you level up increase your health - but also give you access to new spells, abilities and unlock new equipment, which drastically changes the way game plays.

>>5913785
No, because more people on this board are here to get angry and shitpost then to talk about cool games.

>>5907738
this type of game is one of the hardest, if not the hardest, to do well because the structure of the dungeons is so intricate. even the way actions tie together to access dungeons is pretty elaborate

>>5912153
My bad the best RPG of all time is the 1998 Honda Civic DX

>>5910701
>Doesn't name a single one
I knew it.

>>5907738
>Zelda
>RPG

>>5907738
spyro is kind of like oot.

>>5915610
>RPGs are games about choices with long-term consequences.
Thank you for proving my point. You just perfectly described Zelda, have you even played it? In Zelda if you don't do certain things at the right time you don't get certain items, but you still play the rest of the game, you just have that consequence.
>new spells, abilities and unlock new equipment
Yep that's Zelda.
Are you the same contrarian autist who's always trolling the board with your blogposts gatekeeping the RPG genre? I have a hard time believing there's multiple of you but you seem even dumber than him.

>>5907738
Why hasn't anyone tried making their own Sims knockoff? You would think someone would try to take a slice off from that cash cow. Weird how the most successful Maxis game is like the only one to not get a competitor.

>>5907738
Perhaps they were too busy catering to people who enjoy games with depth and soul rather than trying to replicate one of the dullest RPG entries of all time. Seriously each episode following the boy "adventurer" and his pals from Hyrule as they fight assorted villains has been indistinguishable from the others. Aside from the cartoonish imagery, the series’ only consistency has been its lack of excitement and ineffective use of repetitive puzzles, all to make magic unmagical, to make action seem inert.
Perhaps the die was cast when Nintendo vetoed the idea of a third party producing the games; Miyanoto made sure the series would never be mistaken for a work of art that meant anything to anybody- just ridiculously profitable cross-promotion for their annual "party games". The Zelda series might be anti-Sony (or not), but it’s certainly the anti-Spyro series in its refusal of wonder, beauty and excitement.

>a-at least the platforming elements were good though

"No!"

The writing is dreadful; the exploration was nonexistent. As I played, I noticed that every time Link went to "explore" a largely empty world, Nintendo shoehorned in some repetitive puzzles to pad out the game. I began marking on the back of a Nintendo Power magazine every time I came to the same rehashed box pushing/lever pulling puzzles. I stopped only after I had marked the envelope several dozen times. I was incredulous. Nintendo's team is so governed by cliches and milking tired franchises ad nauseum that they have no other style of development. Later I watched a lavish, loving Let's Play of The Ocarina of Time by some YouTube manchild. He said something to the effect of, "If these kids are playing Ocarina of Time at 11 or 12, then when they get older they will go on to owning a Nintendo Switch." And he was quite right. He was not being ironic. When you play The Ocarina of Time you are, in fact, trained to play the same dull Nintendo rehashes decade after decade.

>>5915610
>RPGs are games about choices with long-term consequences.
no
rpgs are where stats trump all, in this case it's not an rpg since Zelda is an action game where player input trumps stats

>>5911073
Retard. The only people who think Zelda is an RPG are the same people who call Mario a “toon”.

>>5917301
>>>/lit/

>>5910786
>I love TLOU
Seek help
>What makes it great is its presentation and storytelling
>but still identifies why it's actual gameplay is shit
Sounds like a shitty game then. Why are you posting on retro games board?

>>5907738
Because Sega and Sony realized, unlike the public at the time, that walking for minutes on end in a barron wasteland to get to your destination, just so you could do more walking was boring and unfun, so they decided to make good games

>timed adventure game

yeah fuck off

>>5918431
it's a scot, obviously

They did. Sony had Alundra and SEGA had Legend of Oasis.

OOT is an rpg....what?

>>5910701
yeah no OOT is still the best game ever made.

>>5920620
I think people associate the series with rpgs mainly because of Adventure of Link, since that had a little bit of rpg style leveling. The rest of the series is largely action adventure.

>>5907738
Because Sony and SEGA could see what Nintendo's brain dead fanatic fans couldn't see...

The game is just good. Not great, not perfect, not timeless... just good.

Wow this is horseracing

>>5907738
>RPG

>>5920996
>Making excuses for retard thinking.

>"Dude OOT was massively influential, a revolution even!"
>"Really? How?"
>"Uh... eh... it slighly improved the more primitive lock-on mechanics that preceded it."

Seriously why do people overhype OOT so much when the system had a real game changer like Mario 64?

>>5921048
Z-targeting is a whole different beast than regular lock-on mechanics.
It's like saying wasd+mouse controls in FPS is just a slightly more improved auto-aim.

>>5907738
>Zelda
>RPG

This game is the an example of comfiness

>>5910701
Names? Oh right you're just shitposting.

>>5910671
yuck

>>5907748
Why though?

Okami on ps2 is pretty much a zelda game

>>5908063
There's not even any interest from the indie scene. You'd think someone would whip up a 3d Zelda clone in UE but nope.

>>5907738
>why didn't Sega or Sony try to replicate this new, unconventional style of RPG with their 5th gen consoles?
took the time to release Phantasy Star Online for 6th gen

>>5911048
He is correct. Zelda is not a form of RPG. If it was then every single game ever created in the entire history of mankind fulfills the criteria to be an RPG and the genre becomes meaningless as a distinction.

>>5911073
Zelda is only acknowledged as an RPG by absolute retards. The creators can be wrong, it happens very often as their word is not law. Putting a few lines of code together doesn't give you carte blanche decision over what genre of game you want it to be.

>>5926681
You run into this kind of thing a lot around here. People don't really understand the difference between the deffinition of a genre and the name for it. You get the guy who thinks Zelda is an RPG because you play the "role" of Link and others who try to call Diablo a dungeon crawler because you're in a dungeon etc etc. It's surreal and a very sad state of the world.

>>5926681
Also important to remember that Nintendo lists it as an RPG because their focus is kids so everything is simplified including genres. They can't list it properly as an Action Adventure because it's not even a genre they recognize. It's the same that according to them Street Fighter is just a generic action game because they don't recognize fighting games as a genre.

So Zelda gets lumped in the "RPG" section along with stuff like Terraria and Harvest Moon, but as with those it doesn't make it one.

>>5910872
>every third person shooter from the 7th gen was basically lifted from RE4 and Gears?
It can all be traced back to Kill.switch, and then Gears made it the standard. Nothing plays like RE4. In RE4, you stand still to shoot, hold down a button to lift your gun, and have to access your inventory every time you want to change weapons or switch to grenades. Play Kill.switch, which came out before RE4, and see how much more similar that is to modern TPS. Nothing copied RE4.

>>5910643
And yet HL plays nothing like Goldeneye. Half-life is considered revolutionary because its gameplay was linear and took place in one big, connected world, which is what pretty much every FPS after Half-life started doing. Goldeneye still used the older style of selecting individual levels to play.

>>5928046
Well, I can amend this and say that RE4's style of camera, over the shoulder, became heavily used, but again, the modern TPS design is pretty much all from Kill.switch, and then Gears took that and used the RE4 style camera, and that became every TPS thereafter. Of all the stuff there is unique about RE4's gameplay, almost none of it was copied by anyone after.

>>5926681
>Zelda is only acknowledged as an RPG by absolute retards. The creators can be wrong, it happens very often as their word is not law. Putting a few lines of code together doesn't give you carte blanche decision over what genre of game you want it to be.
>I get to decide what is an RPG, not creators who actually make things, and I have a deeper understanding of these things because of my collection of anime dolls and nintendo games so zelda is not an rpg like my hardcore rpgs that i am an expert in

>>5907738
Technically the Saturn did have Virtual Hydlide before Ocarina of Time, but we like to pretend that game doesn't exist for good reason.

Probably the next closest thing on Saturn would be Panzer Dragoon Saga, maybe Powerslave though it's First Person. On PS1 there's always Megaman Legends, but again that came out before Ocarina of Time.

Though there is also Tomb Raider on both Saturn and PS1 that you could argue that Ocarina of Time was possibly inspired by that series instead.

With the Saturn though you really need to remember that it was dead by the time Ocarina of Time came out. The Dreamcast and Sonic Adventure launched only a few weeks later in Japan after Ocarina of Time came out. So you need to look at that system for any possible games that Sega made that were inspired by Ocarina of Time. Which on that system there's ones like PSO.

>>5928075
In those years, I remember having more fun with Megaman Legends than OoT

>>5910716
it being relevant has nothing to do with anything he said.

>>5917237
>metroid is an rpg
ok bro. i like to role play as the car in all those racing games to.