/vr/ - Retro Games

Because while Zelda games aren't traditional RPGs with parties, stats and all that, there's still room for story-driven stuff, many NPCs to talk to and character development.
For Mario, story was always very straightforward and vaguely a thing in the actual games, it was all about the pure gameplay. Mario RPGs allowed for more experimentation with Mario lore narrative and character development.

>>5836283
Because it works much better as an Action Adventure and is what fans of the series were looking for. The relative love for LAwakening and LttP over Zelda2 carved out where the series would put it's focus.

>>5836290
I wouldn't mind a few more features that lend to RPGs. They could let you build up experience as you connect hits on enemies and lose them when you take damage; at max level you can fire old school beams or something.

>>5836283
A Zelda RPG like SMRPG makes 110% complete sense. I don't like the direction Zelda games took after the 16 bit (and non retro handheld) era. I could definitely get behind a ZeldaRPG or even think about PaperZelda. Shit would be great fun, especially if they kept the humor.

The humor in the SMRPG/Paper Mario games is what made the games, Nintendo was willing to poke a bit of fun at themselves back then, I doubt it could happen today.

>>5836283
I'm consistently surprised Nintendo hasn't made a Paper Zelda game. It fits even better than Mario in a lot of ways. You could keep it in stages or expand it to be more open and lose absolutely nothing. It's so obvious that I have to assume they just hate money.

>>5836312
So like Cave Story? That wouldn't be bad I suppose. I don't love the series much though so I would be inclined to change a lot.

I'd like a true turn based Zelda RPG. If it can work for Mario and Mega Man it can work for just about anything.

>>5836321
>literally A Link Between Worlds 2013
>>5836329
I like it and I would still change a bit, Zelda deserves spinoffs just as much as Mario.

There were a few including Ocarina of Time, which most people agree is the best RPG of all time.

>>5836334
I think it deffinitely needs to experiment with the formula more, but they do seem super popular with the fans so who am I to say. I do think BotW looks pretty great from the bits I've played I look forward to delving into it some day.

>>5836283
Just play Ys.

>>5836335
that's not an rpg

Hyrule Warriors has some RPG elements to it.
Marin a cute! Cute!

>>5836335
>most
That's a lot of opinions you got there anon
It's not even the best zelda on the 64.

>>5836365
So according to you, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time isn't even an RPG?

>>5837140
Lol not him but of course not. Please let's not have to rehash this for the millionth time again.

>>5836283
in before zelda's an rpg

I don't know if it's entirely relevant to this topic, but I remember that playing Miracle Warriors (SMS version) for the first time really put me in the mind of Zelda II if Zelda II were somehow reinterpreted as a turn-based RPG with party management. I guess it's mostly just the game's setting and aesthetic.

>>5837426
I looked up Ocarina of Time and to get to it you have to go to the RPG page on Nintendo's site https://www.nintendo.com/games/3ds/nintendo-3ds-rpg-games/ You can't really argue with that

>>5838645
well nintendo is wrong. if i make a tile-matching puzzle game and then call it a first person shooter, that doens't make it one. ocarina of time is not an rpg, it's a non-roleplaying action-adventure game, no matter what nintendo says. simple as that.

>>5836331
>mixels

Fanfic faggotry applied to games. These people really are too damn retarded to stick to a cohesive aesthetic aren't they?

>>5838870
That's just a mockup BAKA

>>5836283
i wonder the same thing with Metroid after Super Metroid
imagine sort of early version of Metroid Prime done by early Atlus after SMT2

>>5838870
so fix it yourself then
its just Mega Man/FF NES assets mixed together

>>5838836
>the people who make the games are wrong
let me guess
you believe Smash is a fighting game too

>>5837795
SMS and Game Gear had a shit ton of gems nobody played
for shame

>>5836367
>No Saria
does she at least make a cameo?

>>5838898
it's a platformer fighting game, a genre it invented. it's certainly a different kind of thing from traditional fighting games.

>>5836283
There's no Zelda racing game or Zelda sports games either. Nintendo has only one mascot character.

>>5839267
Link is playable in the new Mario Karts

>>5836283
It feels like a lateral move, a mario RPG is quite unique amongst the brand, it does a lot of things that a regular Mario game can not, a Zelda RPG would be functionally similar but with stat progression, which feels not too disimilar to obtaining hearts and aquiring weapons and tools (which the game already excels at.)

>>5839273
Metroid rpg would be cool

>>5836283

god zelda fanboys are the worst

>>5839276
Absolutely, you could include the hunters as a full playable party, travel across multiple planets, have a deeper focust on dialogue and a large narrative.

>>5839282
That's what I was thinking, even the ship could get into FTL -like battles where your party has to operate the ship and stuff.
>>5839280
HEY

>>5839262
it wasn't the first, nor the genre
and that's why the director calls it a party game

>>5839237
She sure doesn't!

>>5839237
nope, you get more Tecmo OC wank instead with a Deku Stick """spear"""

>>5836369
It's certainly the most beloved

>>5839307
party game isn't a genre...

Kind of sad how that one /vr/ RPG gatekeeper is always just waiting to derail threads and challenge anyone who goes against his gatekeeping agenda, worst part is he'll probably stick around for the next decade being a contrarian retard

>>5839356
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_game

>>5839369
genre has to do with formal or thematic aspects of the game. not social context in which it is played.

>>5839356
and battle royale is just a game mode

>>5839383
if the game is centered on the battle royale aspect then that's its genre

>>5839390
It's lacking in other game modes

I've actually been dying to find a Zelda-like that goes whole hog on the "fantasy RPG-ish game where everything is in realtime," pushes more RPG elements like spellcasting, buff/debuff etc. but retains the problem solving elements--something that the wide array of ARPGs that fit the general description, lacks. Mana series is the closest I could really think of, and I played those already. Tried Crystalis but it doesn't quite hit the spot, and your attack feels like poking your enemies with a stick.

>>5839414
Zenonia

>>5839318
Lana doesn't upset me because she's a cutie and a legitimately good character in battle.

>>5836283
Because Zelda is already "close enough" to being a RPG.

>>5839651
how? it's nothing like one.

>>5841475
Rpg doesn't just mean stat progression and turn based battles.

>>5841475

fantasy setting, semi non-linear world with discrete side-quests, dungeon-based challenges, tool-based progression system, "chosen one" narrative... Zelda is not too far from something like Ys, which is generally considered a JRPG.

>>5841485
that's right, it means player choice in how the narrative progresses. zelda games have a totally static narrative.

>>5841501
rpg doesn't mean any of those things.

>>5836283
If you want to turn it into an RPG can't you just keep on pausing the game whenever you or the enemy is about to make an attack?

>>5841596
Zelda bypasses or transcends that norm with a silent protagonist. You play the role of Link, titularly named for being the player's portal into the gaming world. >>5841658 You switch equipment in lieu of standardized specialty attacks to deal with any given situation. Trust me on this one.

>>5841676
>Zelda bypasses or transcends that norm with a silent protagonist.
Mario games also have a silent protagonist. Does that make them roleplaying games?

>You play the role of Link, titularly named for being the player's portal into the gaming world.
Just as you play the role of the protagonist in many video games. You've given a clever play on his name, but it doesn't say anything to the formal qualities a game must meet in order to be considered an RPG.

>>5841820
Even though you play the role of Mario and he never seems to speak (there's exceptions) there's no item progression nor continuous world that is explored as a plot unfolds.. so it's just a platformer and collectathon.
>You've given a clever play on his name
That's just one of the few reasons Link was named that. The former concept for Zelda was going to pertain to virtual reality and computer networks, the triforce was originally intended to be microchips.

>>5841829
You’re fucking high as hell

The most high

>>5839376
and that's why trash bros is objectively a party game

>>5838902
Name 'em.

>>5842083
Last Bible Special

>>5842287
>shit ton of gems
>name 'em.
>one niche game.

>>5842565
im not the other guy you dipshit
you wait for him
but really, Last Bible Special is good shit. go play it

>>5841676
>You play the role of Link,

This has to be bait at this point.

>>5839307
Wowww I'd never heard of this before, I thought Smash was totally out of the blue, but you can see how much this game influenced it. Thanks!

>>5842784
Role Playing Game

>>5844471
>Role Playing Game

Is a term you still don't understand even after having it explained dozens and dozens of times. If you're not baiting you're literally one of the stupidest people on earth.

To be an rpg, a game has to have the barebones of what makes a D&D ttrpg: specific stats, experience progression, access to greater abilities with the increase of levels, a magic system, discernible classes/taces, collectible items and equipment, encounterible monsters and bosses.

Zelda 2 is the only Zelda game that can be considered an RPG.


That being said, there will never be a traditional jrpg Zelda, because Ocarina fans would hate ot for not being enough like OoT and timeline idiots would demand to know where it is on the timeline before daring play it.

>>5844968
>Zelda 2 is the only Zelda game that can be considered an RPG

This man knows what he's talking about. Zelda II had statistical features and experience levels. Other Zelda games have the player collecting tools and power ups instead of actually developing Link's attributes. This is the difference between RPGs and action-adventure games, of which Zelda is generally an example of the latter. In terms of presentation and story, the two genres have a lot of overlap. But genres are defined by mechanics, not themes.

The distinction seems to be much less clear in Japan, probably because RPGs did in fact originate here in the West.

>>5844968
>increase of levels, a magic system, discernible classes/taces
There are tabletop RGPs that have none of those, fucking ancient ones too like Call of cthulu

Your definition is too narrow, though i do tend to agree that Zelda is not an rpg

>>5845012
CoC is almost just a board game alone because of it, but we're talking about video game rpgs (and technically jrpgs, since the conceit of this thread is a SMRPG-style Zelda game), so it would have to fit the parameters of a traditional D&D style rpg.

>>5845012
Rpgs, Adventure games and Roguelikes are all video game descendants of tabletop games that approach it in different ways and are distinctive genres. RPGs are simply the one that got the common name but it really doesn't mean anything. Like fighting games and beat em ups, you could swap the genre names and they'd make as much sense, but not understanding the difference between Final Fight and Street Fighter is as foolish as mistaking Zelda for an RPG.

>>5844561
You're the one who doesn't understand Zelda 1's importance in newer Rpgs.
>>5844968 >>5845000
All Zelda games obfuscate the stat progression in the game through their item obtainment. They're rpgs, just not in the traditional in your face way you're used to.
I agree with >>5845012 your definition of rpg is too narrow and there's plenty without specific characters with definite statistics.
>>5845035
Arguing that CoC is just a board is just as dense. >>5845039

If Zelda is an rpg, its the most laughable easy rpg series that's ever existed and should be ashamed of itself.

>>5845506
Try Master Quest and Twilight Princess on hero mode. Try the original Zelda and second quest.

>>5845526
>he thinks low health, modded monsters, and rearranged dungeons makes Zelda games hard

If you were trying to refute the facts, you're going to have to do better than that.

>>5845559
Master Quest and Second Quest are more than challenging enough for the majority of you self demmed gamers.

>>5845442
>You're the one who doesn't understand Zelda 1's importance in newer Rpgs.

Even if it had an influence on other RPGs, which is debatable it still doesn't make it part of that gebre in any way.

>>5845683
It has a lot of the staples of the genre and it's wrong to exclude it now even if there's more to modern ones.

>>5837426
Why because you don't want to get btfo for the millionth time?

>>5845698
It shares similar elements because the genres have similar roots. But it's in no way actually an RPG.

>All Zelda games obfuscate the stat progression in the game through their item obtainment. They're rpgs, just not in the traditional in your face way you're used to.

Also wrong. That's not RPG stat progression ( which you should know by now) that's typical progression that happens in many non-RPGs like Metroid. This has been explained many times and you always come back to talking to NPCs which is also not a sole feature of RPGs. Again, this has been gone over dozens of times. If you're somehow not just trolling ( we both know you are though) you are literally retarded.

>>5845701
Lol

>>5845573
>grew up playing Wizardry, Ultima, the Gold Box Games, and MUDs
>Ys 3D’s NewGame+ is suppose to be too hard for me because it’s hard for the 9 year olds who memorized the vanilla versions.

Zelda is and has always been easy. It’s okay to like playing easy games; it doesn’t make you any less of a person.

>>5845720
>talking to NPCs which is also not a sole feature of RPGs
Well then there's no real reason to discuss this if we don't agree. I know Zelda is an rpg and how many games owe their heritage to its groundwork.
>>5845736
Grind doesn't make something hard, and memorizing attack patterns doesn't make something easy.

>>5845906
>thinks that grinding is the only thing in rpgs that makes them hard
>Almost all Zelda bosses die in 3-10 hits with the item you get in their own lair

I know that you desperately want Zelda to be a full fledged, so maybe if you told me what made them difficult, i could explain to you how that matches anything in a real rpg.

>>5836283
To this day I don't really understand Link's sprite there. When I was a kid and looking at it on the TV, I thought he was supposed to be wooden. There's so much brown and there's a lot of wood-themed shit in the game, so I thought maybe it was a weird little in-joke. When I zoom in I can see that there's a -_- face but why are the eyes and mouth brown too? Was it just laziness?

>>5845906
It's not a matter of agree and disagree, you're just wrong. Zelda isn't an RPG.

>>5846158
Shitty rush job, but Link isn't making a -_- face; that his giant nose that he used to have.

>>5846385
Oh, I see. Nicely done.

For one, the whole point of Zelda has always been emulating the feeling of being a kid going on an epic quest in the forest near your town. Having a party woukd cut into that.

Also, between the devs hating it and fans disliking it, Nintendo's never going to make a Zelda game like Zelda II ever again.

>>5846565
You don't need a party to have a RPG.

Link's story has always been a solo quest to vanquish evil because he's "the chosen one" so there isn't really any room for anyone else.

>>5836283
http://www.roguebasin.com/index.php?title=I_rule,_you_rule,_we_all_rule_old-school_Hyrule

Zelda roguelike for those BASED enough to play true roguelikes.

>>5846565
While true, what you're talking about is theme not genre.

>>5848831
Also true, though it is a common element pf many it's ancillary the same way fantasy settings are. Genre is determined by gameplay though which is why it's clear Zelda isn't an example of the RPG genre.

>>5848858
I'm going to have to check that out. Sounds like a better take on a Zelda RL than BoI.

>>5848878
That, and people have been calling Zelda games RPGs since before OP was born.

>>5848884
Many people have said many incorrect things over the years. Doesn't change anything.

>>5848884
That's because nearly every fantasy game up to that point WAS an RPG. That's the only reason why people try to bend over backwards to claim Zelda as an RPG.

>>5849083
A bunch of them were Adventure games as well which is the real irony of all this.

oh well the genre evolved and retroactively Zelda lost its placing in rpgdom

>>5849841
It was never a part of that genre, nor should it have been. Nintendo caused confusion because they market to kids and so only recognize a handful of genres. "RPG" is one of their broad ones even though to the rest of the world it has a more specific meaning. So if you do reduce it down to Action, Sports, Puzzle and RPG then it's more an RPG than the others, but if you're looking at the range of genres most gamers acknowledge, it's clearly an Action-Adventure instead of generic RPG the same way Street Fighter is clearly a Fighting Game instead of a generic Action Game.

Someone could still think of Zelda as an RPG the same way someone could think of Street Fighter as an Action Game, it's not wrong per se but it's just inaccurate and referring tonit that way is bound to lead to pointless confusion.

>>5849974
no confusion just that Zelda used to be considered Rpg no problem

>>5849984
It didn't though, outside of maybe pure Nintendo fans. I have almost never heard it refered to as an RPG which only makes perfect sense. Unless someone was confused by Nintendo marketing or barely played any games it would be hard to mistake it for one.

>>5849993
In Japan they were called Action RPGs for a long time, maybe even still now. Says so on the boxes of some of the games, Ocarina of Time for example.

After all, the only difference between something like Seiken Densetsu and something like Link to the Past is that the former has more visible numbers and assigns more obvious direct value to grinding (Zelda games only reward grinding with money and item drops). Yet SD would probably be called an Action RPG, and Zelda would not. Can you explain why that is exactly?

>>5850015
Well yeah Nintendo still sticks by their labels. They list Street Fighter as an Action Game and Terraria is an RPG. So the same is still true, but in general there's no reason to lump it in a genre it doesn't fit well. Just like everything else.

If Dragon Quest/Final Fantasy are D&D, then Zelda is essentially the Dungeon board game. Even though they share many commonalities, no one would ever confuse D&D for Dungeon.

>>5850056
It's more like milfy tabletop D&D fucked computers and had 3 kids that all kinda looked the same but were different. Then their kids had kids and they still look like inbred cousins but not the same.

There was a promotional DVD for the Wind Waker that featured a series retrospective and interviews with industry figures (mostly minor, Kamiya might have been in there) and staff, about the inspirations behind and impact the series had on their craft. The very last one is with Miyamoto where he says the game was conceptualized around taking a game like Ultima or Black Onyx (the latter being the sole reason I know for sure I didn't dream this whole thing, as I can't find it on Youtube anymore--I'd never even heard of Black Onyx before watching it), and making everything work in realtime with more organic metrics than using numbers for everything. At its roots, it IS an RPG. That doesn't mean you won't sound stupid if someone asks you for an RPG you'd recommend and you tell them Zelda. But it'd be in the same way you'd sound stupid if someone asks for an adventure game and you tell them Mario 64; it's TECHNICALLY true.

>>5849993
>I have almost never heard it refered to as an RPG
So it's your first day on the internet?

>>5850151
It shouldn't make you sound stupid to recommend them.

>>5850151
No it's not an RPG. It doesn't mattee what inspired it, it matters what the gameplay is. Again, being based on it inspired by RPGs doesn't make it one and Nintendo doesn't even recognize the genre it actually is. I can say I'm making a fighting game in the spirit of Street Fighter, but if the game comes out and is a clone if Final Fight it wouldn't be considered a fighter.

Nintendo lumps it in with RPGs for the same reason they lump Street Fighter and Final Fight in the same genre. They simplify everything as much as possible for their target audience which is kids. If like most of the world though, you are recognizing the full range of genres Zelda is very clearly an Action Adventure game and doesn't fit in the RPG slot any more than Final Fight does in the Fighting Games slot.