/vr/ - Retro Games

Care to make a /vr/ poll about that?
I only really know Wizardry and Might and Magic (a bit). So I gotta go with Wizardry because of how much influence it had on the dungeoncrawler turn-based genre.

I know nothing about Bard's Tale but I'd like to get into that. Where would I start?

And Ultima seems a bit stale. I don't know much either about that. I only played some free GoG version a bit and didn't enjoy it very much.

>>5793273
>>5793286
https://www.strawpoll.me/18439375

>>5793297
thanks, man.
just voted Wizardry.

>>5793273
M&M or Ultima.
The rest are meh.

>>5793273
w1 is the oldest rpg that aged well

>inb4 games don't age
early microcomputer games certainly did

>>5793273
Is the best version of Wizardry 1 the NES version with the AC Fix romhack?

>>5793360
Play the PC98 version instead. It's universally agreed to be the best one.

poor Bard's Tale. It's like pitting the Gold Box games against Dark Sun and Arkania series, but somehow The Magic Candle got involved.

>>5793286
Bard's Tale plays a lot like Wizardry, just a bit more involving and a lot harder. It's pretty cool, but not super original.

>>5793273
Ultima was the best, but Wizardry was the most consistent.

>>5793360
I've never heard of that, surely at minimum the SNES/PS1 version would be better

Never really bothered with M&M beyond console ports of 3 from back in the day (which did nothing for me).

Sell me on the series.

>>5793368
SNES ports were best.

>>5793394
>Arkania

That's one I've had my eye on. Are those actually worth playing?

>>5793464
It's like Wizardry, except there's a gigantic world to explore full of optional and required quests, puzzles, dungeons and all kinds of shit. It was fucking unreal when it came out. It's at least 20 times as big as Wiz 1.

>>5793470
Can't say, some friends recommended me but I never managed to get into it. Don't let that stop you from trying, though, probably lack of patience on my end.

>>5793468
>>5793462
W1 had Ambush for thieves. I'd appreciate comments from people who actually know what they're talking about.

Feel Might & Magic is the most fun mostly because of how utterly broken it is. It's just a dumb fun dungeon crawler that doesn't really try to piss you off like other ones. Yeah I know some people love a challenge but it is nice to play a dungeon crawler that doesn't take itself seriously and just want you to enjoy yourself.

Bard's Tale I've heard is nice but never touched any of them. Right now waiting for GOG version to have original version since I really dislike how the new art looks.

Ultima would win for me but hate the shitty combat. Everything else about Ultima is amazing however.

Wizardry might be the most influential especially Japanese games in the 80's (not just JRPG but lots of games with RPG elements from that era came from Wizardry). But after 1 it pretty much flopped around until it died. Heard good things about 8 but that's about it.

>>5793612
>Wizardry might be the most influential especially Japanese games in the 80's
Bard's Tale and Might & Magic are also heavily inspired by Wizardry.

>>5793618
More copied Wizardry just adding their own twist to it with Bard's Tale using music which was new to personal computers at the time. And Might & Magic just having more of a plot happening.

>>5793585
To clarify, you're talking about something other than the hide/ambush command that can be toggled off (along with dumapic automap etc)

>>5793612
>Right now waiting for GOG version to have original version since I really dislike how the new art looks.
The Bard's Tale reboot (not the more recent remade versions) is supposed to include the originals

>>5793631
I would like the QoL the rerelease gives like automapping.

Might and Magic > Ultima > Bards Tale > Wizardry

>>5793512
>It's at least 20 times as big as Wiz 1.
Wizardry 1 has 10 floors of 20x20.
M&M1 has an overworld of 5x4 areas, each 16x16 and about 50 dungeon and town floors, 16x16 each.

Wizardry is king.

M&M is OK, but second-fiddle. HOMM was always the top-tier child.

Ultima peaked at U7 and Garriot never kept it up. Bard's Tale is just niche.

Wizardry is a plagiarization of Oubliette.

Too different. Wizardry is more of a dungeon crawler where you try to get a little deeper on every push until you reach the goal. Ultima used a more tactical combat than just straight RPG, and placed more emphasis on choices and behavior past the 3rd game.

M&M vs Bards Tale is more of a straight fight, since they were the same format.

>>5794075
No.

>>5794063
No.

So on a related note, what's /vr/'s thoughts on the World of Ultima games?

http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2013/10/game-12-oubliette-1977.html?m=1
Inspiration or rip off?

>>5794394
>In an era where the makers of Questron decided to license the "look and feel" of Ultima from Richard Garriott,
That's a very revisionist way of putting it.
I don't think LB ever added acknowledgments of his inspirations either.

>>5793273
Might and Magic 3 and World of Xeen are the comfiest and coolest exploration wise, easily overshadowing the other M&M entries. I wish I could play them for the first time again.

>>5794075
Exactly what i was thinking.

>>5794380
They're nice.
Savage Empire is a scaled down version of Ultima 6 while Martian Dreams is more a precursor to 7 in terms of gameplay. They feature unique settings with attention to detail.

>>5793286
>I know nothing about Bard's Tale but I'd like to get into that. Where would I start?
From the first game I suppose - the first three games are really similar and have import character functions and after that there's a huge change with BT4 akin to Wizardry 8 except very ill-received,

There's also Dragon Wars which is a bit of a spiritual successor mixed with some Wasteland like features.

>>5793273
final fantasy

>>5794740
>>5793286
If you want to get into the Bard's Tale series, get the remastered version on Steam, worth that 10 anglo bucks

>>5793273
Go for the one with all the berserkers.

>>5794795
>on Steam
Get it somewhere respectable.

>>5793273
SSI's D&D > Ultima > Wizardry > Might and Magic > Bard's Tale

Is this in terms of enjoyment? Influence? I don't really understand what we are debating.

Wizardry and Ultima might be tied on influential. Wizardry for it's battle and Ultima on exploring and NPC dialog.

Might and Magic and Bard's Tale are both just Wizardry clones that just try to add more to the mechanics. With Bard's Tale feeling more like exploring a town and the dungeon under unlike Wizardry which is really just one big dungeon. Plus adding music to the game which was a new thing back than. Might and Magic is more about exploring multiple towns with different NPC. Series always been more calming and tries to be almost like baby's first Wizardry and almost wear it with pride. Never really feeling the game is trying to dick you around and just enjoy what it has to offer.

>>5795008
>Never really feeling the game is trying to dick you around and just enjoy what it has to offer.
Except for M&M2 with its 250 golem encounters.

>>5793341
>aged
blow your brains out

bump

>>5794075
I like this explanation.

>>5794428
I have big box copy of World of Xeen. Had it for a few years. I like the artwork.

>>5795029
t. insecure boomer

>>5793273
In my limited experience.
>Ultima
I always hated that angle, so it was hard for me to play.
>Wizadry
I tried to get into Heart of the Maelstrom. I thought it was decent. Will probably try to tackle it again.
Also played tale of the forsaken which just became a bit unbearable.
>Might and Magic
I'm going with MnM even though I only played part 2. And on Genesis to boot. But I loved the fuck out of it. I mean fuck fighting 200+ enemies, but all in all it was enjoyable.

>>5796071
>I always hated that angle,
What angle? Only VI and VII use oblique projection. I-V are flat tiles, VIII is correct isometric and the rest is 3D.

Bump

>>5795029
>games don't age
t. console babby pampered with polished games and high production values

>Think the Wizardry covers are cool as shit
>Try to play the first trilogy
>What the fuck is going on
>Too low IQ for it

>>5797727
Mages need IQ 11 and the more IQ you have the quicker you learn spells.
Bishops and Lords need IQ 12 and Ninjas 17.

>>5797734
What IQ do I need to play Wizardry though?

>>5797727
If you think the first three are hard wait until you play 4?

>>5797736
You practically need a mage. Bishops are a trap and lords and ninjas are impossible to achieve in the beginning.

>>5797737
Sorry I don't know why I added a question mark at the end, I guess I'm just tired

>>5797727
The character creation screen is the hardest part of the game

>>5797746
Character creation in Wizardry is easy, just roll characters until you get 16-18 points. No need to analyze whether a rolled set of stats is worth keeping or not.

>>5793273
Why the fuck not all?

>>5793656
navigation/mapping/trying-not-to-get-lost is like 75% of the gameplay in Bard's Tale

>>5797758
Realms of Arkania's on the other hand.
That's some serious shit.

>>5797738
Bishops are excellent in Wizardry 8, IF (and only IF) you're willing to powergame their development.

Bump

>>5797770
Because that doesn't offer much discussion dumdum.

>>5794815
Cast Mind Blade and go have a snack. Come back to a pile of dead berserkers.

>>5797758
>settling with 16
Casul

>>5797758
>roll characters until you get 16-18 points
you best be joking nigger

>>5799925
>>5797758
Stats in Wizardry doesn't even matter much. The only reason to get high stats is to class change. HP is the only real stat you would want high to survive.

Does anyone have a download for Wizardry - Llylgamyn Saga on PC? Or should I just emulate the PSX version?

>>5800125
http://fullmotionvideo.free.fr/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=337&sid=19abc672d4282254b92822b0186715b7&start=30

>>5799940
Strength influences your combat performance, IQ and piety your spells and luck traps. All of the basic classes have one primary skill and the advanced classes two.
With 16 points and a correct race choice you can max both your primary and vitality.
Class changing is pointless in normal play.

>>5800181
Thanks! Love that forum, didn't even consider checking there for some reason.

Wizardry has it's own OVA nuff said

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOTHNoODYmY&t=271s

>>5800890
>Japan has a hard on for Wizardry
We know

>>5800181
Any way to get this working on Windows 10? I can get it to launch using a Locale Emulator, but it crashes immediately after the intro. I got to the menu at one point but it then crashed when I tried to start a new game.

>>5801502
>>5800181
Is there a reason to use the Windows version over the PSX one? Don't know how different they are and feel playing the PSX version is just easier to do.

>>5799925
>Strength
Strength is an almost useless dump stat even for frontline fighters.
16 Strength = +1 damage
17 Strength = +2 damage
18 Strength = +3 damage
there is absolutely no difference between 6 and 15 strength.
>IQ and Piety
The spells always have the same effects independent of stats. IQ and piety only have a very small effect in the learn probability for new spells but you will quickly know all spells anyway if you reclass after level 13. In other words they are dump stats.
>Luck
You get a +5% chance to resist status effects, level drain and instant kill attacks for every 6 points in luck. Since you will easily reach 12 luck even when dumping the stat and you can't reliable stay at 18 luck so it's completely pointless to invest in luck.
>Vitality
Affects the number of hit points but just like with strength you need very large values for it to have an effect at all. There is no difference between 6 and 15 vitality.
>Agility
By far the most important stat. This one should be an auto 18 points for every single character at creation since it affects initiative rolls. It also affects the chance to identify traps. (The disarm chance is only affected by your thief's level.)

16 bonus points are enough to qualify for all classes except Samurai, Lord and Ninja and get 18 agility too.

>>5801512
I'd much prefer having native keyboard/mouse controls, especially as it's a PC game originally. Make it nicer to sit and play at my desk.

I have the PSX version as well if this doesn't work out.

Bump

Any similar games/series from similar time periods as the 4 in the OP which I should check out? I'm certain they weren't the only ones pushing out interesting RPGs in the 80s/90s.

>>5803097
Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, Dragon Slayer, Phantasy Star, Megami Tensei, Gold Box, Questron, Rance, Dragon Knight, Hydlide, Glory of Hercules, Phantasie, Ys

>>5803314
Gonna ignore all the JRPGs for being babyshit but thnks for the other recs.

Also... Rance? really?

>>5803879
Not him but would look into the Dragon Slayer series. They tend to go more the WRPG root and make you suffer in everything you are doing. Only thing of note is they tend to do more action RPG than turn based so take what you will.

That being said maybe a weird one but Quest for Glory is a strange western adventure game with RPG stuff in it. But your enjoyment is based on how much you enjoy Sierra adventure games.

>>5803879
It has 13 titles and started in the 80s.
Rance is the most prolific RPG protagonist aside from Adol.

>>5803879
>>5803891
The early Rance games aged pretty poorly before Kichikuou though, which is why they have modern remakes (except for 4) because the creator recognize they're hard to sit through but contain important lore for the rest of the series

There's no debate
There's one good series in there (ultima), one mediocre series that had a single good game and two shitty series

>>5804012
Which is the mediocre one?

I'd love to start a retro RPG general. Similar to something like the retro FPS general (>>5803569) with recommended games/entry points, best versions of each (and which platforms are the best for purists or for people who prefer feature upgrades/changes), general tips, etc. Would there be any interest? It seems there's a good few threads on these games each week but they tend to have long periods of inactivity and die fairly quickly, so would be nice to consolidate discussion a bit more.

I'd be happy to work on a few "best version" + setup guides for each series but it'd mostly be based on research + other's opinions as I haven't been able to play most of these games, let alone every one of their various ports.

>>5804049
Fuck no.

>>5804042
He's just stirring the thread, it's not somebody's real opinion

>>5804060
Why?

>>5804074
Because you're trying to kill any actual discussion.
General threads in general are already bad and trying to shove a whole genre into one is makes things even worse. Might as well make a retro game general so the whole board can fit into a single thread.
I rather write down a new response every time somebody asks a question than spam "read the pastebin".

>>5793470
Yes, but you have to keep in mind that the target audience were people who were already familiar with the pnp game, the dark eye (basically German dnd). If you aren't you might find the game confusing, since the abilities and especially the magic system aren't intuitive at all. Bit it's still a great rpg.

Bump

>>5793470
They're excessively obtuse and punishing, even for genre veterans. CRPGs have a long history of attempting to translate the realism/simulationist aspect of tabletop games into video game concepts but Arkania cranks it up to 11. It's a unique experience and it's definitely got its strengths but it's probably hard to appreciate if you haven't already sunk your teeth into most of the other greats.

>>5804082
Not that guy, but I was digging the idea of an old CRPG general. However you make a fair enough point that it would make a slow board like /vr/ even more slower

>>5807071
FPS General exists for 2 reasons:
1. Doom still gets TONS of new content, so it makes sense to have an constantly updated thread to keep track of them.
2. Half of this board is here for Doom, so relegating it to a general (and maybe a handful of other threads for more specific stuff) keeps the board from turning into literally nothing but Doom/Quake/etc. threads.

RPGs have neither of these issues. A General Thread for them would be pointless.

>>5807471
Honestly if the tools were available I'd make my own mods for Wizardry and Ultima but as that is likely to never ever happen looks like I'm stuck making my own Ultima clone GMS2

>>5808006
There are tools to make your own Wizardry style dungeons like Javadry and Ultima has mods for Exult at least. You could also help out and work on the existing engine recreations.

>>5808006
GMS2 could probably make some neato Doom clones and the like.

>>5808006
Guess the big difference is Doom maps you can clear fairly quickly. Some are just really hard so might take you a bit to clear. Wizardry and other CRPG are games that are meant to take you weeks to clear even the kinder games.

>>5808006
>Honestly if the tools were available I'd make my own mods for Wizardry and Ultima
Wizardry 6/7/8 actually has decent modding tools - look up Cosmic Forge

Wizardry 8 is a Top 10 game of all time. OF ALL TIME. Therefore the Wizardry series win by default.

>>5795029
Games certainly do age, things that were acceptable before are jarring now, They should be taken as a product of their time and evaluated as such, but that won't stop you from feeling the way that you do.

Ps. neck yourself, faggot.

>>5808683
but don't i have to spend 15 hours rolling up a fairy ninja and play thru 6 and 7 first

>>5808835
>spend 15 hours rolling
Either play fair (accept the very first roll you get) or just download a character editor and give yourself the stats you need. There is no sane reason why you should spend an extented time rolling stats in an RPG.

>>5808683
I decided I couldn't stomach the encounter rate anymore once I got to the first town the first time I played it, not because there are enemy encounters in town but because there's just so fucking many of them that shopping for new gear felt like a chore since I kept having to run back to the inn after every single stop I made. I think my brain broke since then and I jubilate when I have to do this sort of shit so maybe it's finally time for a second attempt

>>5808856
Do not under any circumstance play it without Wiz8Fast. I have no idea how I kept my sanity (mostly) playing it originally back in 2001 or so. Those endless battles would take forever. But please, please, please install this tiny mod. It literally makes 20 minute battles take 2 minutes.

http://www.zimlab.com/wizardry/patches.htm

Is Wizardry 6 the best starting point in the series?

>>5809000
No. Start with 5 or the Gaidens.

>>5809000
I honestly think it's the best one in the series. The opening section is more adventure gamey and the puzzles you have to solve can get somewhat cryptic but I don't think it's ever unfair. If that doesn't sound like your thing it gets more hack and slashy right after that part.

>>5809008
The problem is that it's very easy to fuck up in the beginning. You have no town to return to, no way to replace party members and your party is very fragile. Pretty much everybody starts with a bard because it's the most practical way to survive the start.

This one.

>>5809003
I would absolutely recommend Wiz 1/2/3 for a beginner over Wiz 5 any time of the day. It's no Wiz 4 but it has a bunch of really frustrating noob traps. You can fuck yourself over by stumbling into a one way route to the lower levels and not even realize you have virtually no chance of making it out again

>>5809024
The difference is that Wiz1-3 save after every step while 5 saves while in town so instead of losing everything you only lose an hour or so.
Overall there are less bullshitty encounters and the classes/spells are more balanced.

Outside of being called a faggot are the PSX versions of 1-5 a good way to play Wizardry?

>>5809053
Do you like menu based controls over keyboard shortcuts?

>>5809053
I've actually seen a lot of people call the PSX port the best possible version if you're gonna play Wiz 1-3 today. Wizardry ports have also always remained pretty faitfhul to the originals so emulating an old obscure PC version to get the "true" experience just feels like unwarranted purism.
>>5809056
I'll usually take keyboard shortcuts over anything else but having tried both the UI is concise enough that using a controller makes virtually no difference

>>5809053
SNES lets you turn off automap, ambush etc. Does PSX have options like that or is it mandatory EZ mode?

>>5809108
Here's the options. Know the parts I marked in red changes most of the text English but that's about it.

>>5809108
Strangely when picking the game you want from New Llylgamyn Saga (4 and 5) it's in a weird resolution but trying out 4 the gameplay part seem to be fine.

>>5809130
オートマップ means automap, the setting turns it on and off.

>>5809000
Arguably yes. I've seen it referred to as such before.

>>5809090
>Wizardry ports have also always remained pretty faithful to the originals
The console ports didn't shit on them like Ultima, M&M or BT and they kept most changes optional.
In the PS1 port you have an automap at the press of the button whereas originally you had to cast DUMAPIC to even know your coordinates and direction. You can disable it but enabling it again is trivial.
The old computer ports don't have such temptations and they offer higher resolution for text and wireframes.

but why

>>5793297
A tie between Wizardry and M&M? That actually seems accurate.

>>5809620
But what?

>>5809503
Any of the other ones I should know about?

>>5810113

>>5810129
The rest is cosmetic:

>メッセージ
Message language
>モンスター名
Monster names
>アイテム名
Item names
>呪文名
Spell names

These all have the options 日本語(Japanese) and 英語(English).
>モンスター表示
Monster graphics: クラシック for the PC98 style and プレイステーション for the new PS1 sprites.

>ダンジョン
Dungeon: 線面 for wirefram, ポリゴン for texture mapped polygons

>サウンド
ステレオ stereo or モノラル monaural sound
>BGM
Background music
>効果音
Effect sounds
>戦闘エフエクと
Visual battle effects
>コントローラ設定
Controller settings

>>5809620
I guess blonde = foreigner

>>5810585
Thanks for the help.

Wizardry just for IV alone.

>>5810187
The Korean one is nicer.

Bump