/vr/ - Retro Games

>>5766184
I think RGB looks best on the snes, and composite looks best on the mega drive and ps1.

S-Video gets you 90% of the way there and you generally don't need to mod consoles for it.

FPGA consoles like the Super NT and Mega NT make RGB irrelevant.

>>5766184
Way ahead of you. I'm down to my NES as my last non-RGB console. Autists can bleat about authenticity all they want, I'll just be over here effectively playing on my own personal arcade monitor and loving every minute of it.

For me, it’s S-Video.

>>5766184
I haven’t noticed anything wrong with my MegaDrive or Dreamcast games via RGB, are you sure that’s not just a Saturn thing?

Also going RGB with MegaDrive is worth it because it’s the only way to get rid of the MegaDrive’s crappy rainbow banding and composite noise.

>>5766210
>>5766224
S-Video is pretty good, but the color quality doesn't compare to real RGB.

>>5766210
Does S video work over scart or am I retarded for thinking it does?

>>5766236
It's non-standard, but your TV might support it.

>>5766230
Mega Drive DOES have transperancy issues, the Dreamcast is the only Sega console that doesn't have trouble with it.

>>5766210
>>5766224
There's more consoles that support RGB than there are ones that do S-video the only ones so far that do are:

Saturn
Snes
PS1
Dreamcast
N64
3DO
Neo Geo CD

>>5766236
>>5766242
A lot of them do, some don't.

>>5766249
>Mega Drive DOES have transperancy issues
Some SNES games use checkboard meshes too y'know. BTW the Mega Drive does support genuine transparency in hardware.

>>5766184
Nothing wrong with RGB. Just wish people would drop the SCART plugs. They are trash.

>>5766347
Yeah, I'll be right on it. Just gotta get this time machine working again.

>>5766462
They are PALshit only. There's no real reason to use SCART over BNC or even simple RCA plugs. But the scalers and line doublers keep designing around it.

>>5766476
American here. I like SCART because plugging in one thing > plugging in six things.

>>5766184
Take the BNC pill instead, kid.

>>5766497
I would say VGA but the problem is while that's a way better connector too many retards would think it's actual VGA/RGBHV and not RGBS.

>>5766508
Yeah, and it doesn't carry audio, either. Plus, VGA equipment normally expects clean TTL-level sync, which is an issue for some consoles like the PS1. SCART definitely isn't perfect, but as long as you use decent cables it works fine, it's convenient, and it's well supported.

>>5766476
>scalers and line doublers
Yikes. Really wish I hadn't given you that (You).

>>5766529
>and it doesn't carry audio
>VGA equipment normally expects clean TTL-level sync
I'm just talking about the connector. And VGA does support audio no problem.
>SCART definitely isn't perfect, but as long as you use decent cables it works fine, it's convenient, and it's well supported.
No it's a major piece of shit. It's only supported by chinks these days so you're limited to very cheaply made connectors that don't support larger diameter cables. That's why all these guy making SCART cables use no name wire because the actual good brands wont fit and it's cheaper.
You have the beyond retarded right angle entry shit.
I know it's optional for the US market but having the power lines wired is really bad.

Yeah, I get RGB and Component when possible. Mostly because I own an OSSC and it's served me very well so far.

>>5766184
What cables to I need to run my dreamcast into a PVM? Using a Toro for VCA currently.

I think I need a scart to go from the Toro to the female end of the RGB cable, is this correct?

>>5766586
Is your PVM one of the special ones that can do 480p?

>>5766548
>And VGA does support audio no problem.
No it doesn't. It's purely a video (plus EDID) standard. You need a separate connector for audio. If you're going to completely ignore VGA conventions and use only the DE-15 connector with a non-standard pinout, you might as well use a better connector that's actually impedance-matched instead.
>It's only supported by chinks these days
Also not true. There are multiple good SCART cable makers who use high quality internally shielded wire, and the OEM SCART cables are mostly fine as well.

I'll agree that the way SCART handles signalling is stupid though.

>>5766595
>If you're going to completely ignore VGA conventions
That's kind of the point of that connector... The same connector supports 3 different form factors though the most used are the 9 and 15 pin versions.
>actually impedance-matched instead.
Then you're talking about BNC which I originally said but you brought up it not being easy to use. What kind of retard circular argument is this?
>There are multiple good SCART cable makers who use high quality internally shielded wire, and the OEM SCART cables are mostly fine as well.
They don't lol. Are you joking? None of them use anything that could resemble professional grade wire. Most the time you can't even get a datasheet. Unless they are Belden or Canare mulitcore it's more than likly trash. But as I said those are too big in diameter for the chink scart plugs and it's cheaper to sell garbage to customers like you.

>>5766593
The toro can do scart and VCA, having vca run into an old computer monitor but I also have PVM.

>>5766184
>Be enlightend, go RGB
Unironically this, but don't fall for the PVMeme. An RGB modded consumer set looks way better than a PVMeme. You can do basic soldering can't you anon?

Also an RGB to component converter is a beautiful thing if you can't into soldering.

Would you say that every game that heavily relied on dithering was meant to be seen through composite?

>>5766256
Shadow and highlight mode isn't transparency

>>5766476
scart is very usefull though, not just for RGB but also a passway for composite and S-video (even compoment in a very few cases)

>>5766698
Plenty of arcade games, which were RGB direct to the guns, use stipple/dithering, and those developers clearly weren't designing around composite.

>>5766184
SCART is wicked gay

>>5766548
>buying scart from chinks instead of euros
dumbo

>>5766502
>>5766476
>only works on a meme monitor
scart plugs on every tv in europe. Only really old ones (like in before 80's) don't have them

>>5766630
>Then you're talking about BNC which I originally said but you brought up it not being easy to use.
13W3 is actually what I had in mind, but sure, it's either that or BNC. My point was that if you're arguing against SCART for not being "professional grade" enough, then it's stupid to argue for DE-15, especially if you're going to ignore VGA conventions which would make it easy to use off-the-shelf switches and distribution amps and so forth. You'd just end up with a shitty AND inconvenient connector.

>None of them use anything that could resemble professional grade wire.
Retro Access does. But for short runs and the low resolutions of retro consoles, you hardly need truly professional grade stuff. As long as the conductors are individually shielded and not like 30 AWG or something you're probably fine.

My point in all of this is that SCART is perfectly adequate for retro gaming needs. Just don't buy actual garbage chink cables.

>>5766719
All the EU companies are worthless and use Chink suppliers.
>>5766756
The point is that at the very least VGA connectors, or more specifically DB9 size connectors since you're being an autistic retard and getting hung up on the VGA standard, can at least support larger cable diameters and are still made by quality companies.

>My point in all of this is that SCART is perfectly adequate for retro gaming needs.
It's trash but you can deal with it because to make something better requires more money and probably some competence on the end user. Got people charging $35 to $40 for no name wires with a sourced from china scart connector on the other end.

>>5766705
>Shadow and highlight mode isn't transparency
Yes it is. It works exactly the same way as transparency on SNES, except more limited. Both consoles just do A + B color maths, except B on Genesis is always a fixed number taken from a hypothetical highlight or shadow layer while B on SNES can be taken from an actual layer.

>>5766813
Should also add that by A + B I don't mean the operation, but the operands. Both SNES and Genesis do addictive and subtractive color maths, but SNES can also average between the operands.

>>5766796
>$35 to $40
lmao

There are sellers (on Ebay for instance) that sell good scart cables for less than $10, as long as you don't have audiophile tier autism any scart cable that has RGB will suffice.

>>5766830
>good

How much does it cost to get a front loader NES RGB modded in the USA?

SCART is only the name of the connection, it can take component, composite, RGB, and some SCART inputs can take S-video SCART. So you should say rgb-SCART. However they're only available in europe, amerifats can also get RGB through separate cables, scart has little relevance really.

>>5766830
The picture will be OK. Audio will have awful buzzing on bright images.

>>5766852
get one with RCA breakouts (if possible) those work better than audio directly from the scart plug.

>>5766845
Didn't I point out in the op very clearly RGB?, also what does relevance have to with anything?

>>5766184
>only a problem with flawed video systems of most Sega consoles
But it literally isn't a problem you faggot. Besides composite blurs shit no matter what, it's not up to Sega consoles.
>>5766249
>Mega Drive DOES have transperancy issues
which are not in any way a byproduct of the signal?

take the S-Video pill

>widely available on most mid 90s and up sets that aren't shit (and even some from the 80s)
>don't have to spend triple digits on cables and mods
>way less bleeding than composhit but still enough to get the natural pixel blending effect the devs intended

>>5767516
More consoles require a mod for S-Video than RGB.

>>5767516
Scart cables usually dont cost much. Unless your an american.

>>5768081
The vast majority of people here are and 50Hz is shit. Funny how such a vocal minority keeps trying to meme their Euroshit connector everywhere.

>>5768526
You know scart works with 60hz, NTSC, and on every kind of region (NTSC or PAL)?

>>5768561
What it works on is irrelevant. The vast majority of people here are American and the vast majority of US TVs do not and have never had SCART inputs. You keep trying to meme this connector into widespread usage for TVs that don't support it. You're trying to fit a square into a triangle-shaped hole -- even 4 year olds are capable of understanding that you can't do that.

>>5768526
NTSC + RGB scart is the true redpill

>>5768670
The vast majority of US TVs don't have any kind of RGB input at all, so what's your point? I've added RGB inputs to like a dozen NTSC CRTs now, and I chose to use SCART connectors because it was the most convenient option.

>>5768672
>NTSC + RGB scart

>>5768670
scart is used in Europe, Africa, Asia (usually in RGB-21 pin form). It's really just North America (maybe South America too) that don't use scart.

>>5766184
Scart gives you horrible buzzing audio unless you buy $50 cables, and some consoles aren't even scart compatible out of the box.

>>5766830
>There are sellers (on Ebay for instance) that sell good scart cables for less than $10

Those are unshielded cables that will have loud buzzing audio and sometimes image rollover and ghosting too. The last $10 scart cable I bought, it was worse than using composite.

>>5768996
Maybe for buzzing audio but like I said, if you can find one with RCA breakout you don't have any buzzing at all.

>>5767516
Svideo is great. Anyone who would use 1 minute worrying about rgb instead of playing with Svideo is a real idiot.

>>5769037
Sure, but not every console supports S-Video. Genesis doesn't.

I use it for every console that supports it, though. SNES, N64, Saturn. Clear, yet soft image that is basically the perfect way to play.

>>5768819
>I've added RGB inputs to like a dozen NTSC CRTs now, and I chose to use SCART connectors because it was the most convenient option.
It's obviously not the most convenient option when you have to modify TVs or consoles, now is it?

>>5768873
>It's really just North America (maybe South America too) that don't use scart.
And the vast majority of people on 4chan are from, you guessed it, North America. Your implication that SCART is a one-size-fits-all solution is disingenuous at best and laughable at worst.

>>5767615
I spent $80 on a Genesis s-video mod and I still don't regret it

>>5769749
Why would you spend $80 on svideo for genesis instead of just buying hd retrovision cables. I can understand not wanting to do scart to BNC fuckery but theres plenty of consumer TVs with component.

>>5769756
1) not my tv
2) the cheapest hd retrovision genesis cables on ebay are $70

>>5766184
>56k modems existed when i was a child
>here's my opinion about toys made before i was born

>>5769716
>And the vast majority of people on 4chan are from, you guessed it, North America
Don't be too sure about that. Everyone may speak English but there are no site statistics that prove your statement

>>5770587
What are you trying to say?

>>5769716
Exactly, it's important we stop posting about SCART. Americans can't easily use it, so we have to pretend it doesn't exist for their mental health.
Let's all just just pretend S-Video is acceptable, ok?

>>5766184
>sharpest and most detailed picture for almost every system

The sharpest and most detailed picture is going to come from an emulator being run on a PC and output through a discrete GPU to a monitor with either BNC or DB15 input.

Emulation and Nvidia/GPU hardware is capable of a much more "perfect" analog signal than any of the real systems were ever capable of putting out.

We don't have SCART in Australia either.

>>5770692
Meant to write Nvidia/AMD GPU hardware

>>5770621
You'll understand when you're a little older and have a few more summers under your belt

>>5768839
>hurr durr lets post some dumb cat reaction pic

I'm European and I used to import US and JP games, it was the only way to play them in color on our TVs

Screen quality is pristine with this combo, too

>>5771339
>NTSC
>RGB

>>5771605
Give it up, man

He clearly doesn't understand and is unwilling to admit his mistake and learn from it.

>>5766705

there's a debug register than does it.
see: throughout overdrive 2

>>5770692
>>5770731
>consumer grade gpus
>perfect analog
This thread man...

>>5771648
>>5771605
Although NTSC has a color encoding standard, and RGB is a signal that doesn't need color encoding, NTSC is fundamentally 525 lines (like, 480 or whatever visible) every two fields, updating half of the lines at 60hz (well, 59.94hz).

The signal output by an NTSC region game console is 525 lines every two fields (slightly offset so the fields overlap, resulting in a progressive scan image), updated at 59.94hz, which you can carry over whatever the fuck kind of cables you want.

>>5769716
>It's obviously not the most convenient option when you have to modify TVs or consoles, now is it?
low functioning autism

>>5768819
Sure you have kid

>>5768839
Retarded amirite!?!?!!!!1 You're not really playing a game in RGB unless you're also playing the RGB version of the game.

>>5767516
>don't have to spend triple digits on cables and mods

These work and are cheaper
https://www.ebay.com/itm/The-best-S-video-cable-for-Nintendo-SNES-N64-Game-Cube-Svideo-SVHS-1-8m-6ft/132861494962

>>5774324
more like people have no idea how to evaluate cables and buy it because it's "the best"

>>5774319
I own a knockoff and an original Nintendo S-Video cable. There is legitimately 0 difference on my CRT with N64 or SNES.

>>5774331
knockoffs are always shit unless they were overpriced shit back in the day in which case they will again be overpriced shit

>>5766184
How does SCART looks on consumer Trinitrons? I'm wondering because I never saw it.

>>5774346
If you've seen component, It'll look like that

>>5774346
Ever been to an arcade?

>>5766224
>tfw I have an s video cord that connect to my n64, gamecube, playstation, playstation 2, and Xbox
>but my Trinitron has no S-Video port to plug it into

>>5774384
Those things are total garbage.

>>5772104
Bad faith reply of an asshole who is more interested in making contrarian shitposts than explaining his counter-points because he does not actually have one and if he did explain them the pedantry of the "point" of he is trying to make would be exposed.

If you dare, explain why you believe the analog 240p video signal from a modern consumer GPU using something like CRT emudriver is visibly surpassed on a practical, usable level by some higher tier of hardware which you seem to have elite knowledge about us mere mortals are ignorant about.

>>5774339
>knockoffs are always shit
No

>>5772441
Just say you fucked up dude, when speaking technical shit you're supposed to say 50/60Hz in regards to the refresh rate and the number of lines in analog SD modes, we are not stupid. NTSC implies color encoding so if you bring RGB into the mix you're not supposed to mention it. Now shut up.

>>5774523
No modern GPU is outputting 240p let alone rgb, bub. If you can't understand why these cards don't output a "perfect" signal then it doesn't matter to you.

>>5771339
>it was the only way to play them in color on our TVs
Any non-shit EU TV since early 90s supports color in 60Hz through composite.

>>5775036
You have no idea what you are talking about. This is an even more disappointing reply than I expected. If you don't think the cards listed in this link are "modern GPUs" then you're just a dumbass.

http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=295

>let alone rgb
RBG is easier to output than 240p!!! HDMI is a form of RGB for fucks sake! Your basic bitch "VGA cable" and monitor is RGB!!!

>>5776256
>cards from a decade or more ago
>modern
Jesus

>>5776265
Nvidia GTX 700 and 900 series can do 240p (sometimes with caveats).

AFAIK any Quadro card should be able to display 240p right out of the box, but I have not tested the newer ones because the are very expensive. My Quadro 4000 could do 240p no problems.

>>5776296
>AFAIK any Quadro card should be able to display 240p right out of the box,
That would be the ones with DVI-I output btw.

>>5770692
Well, actually...

The sharpest and most detailed picture is going to come from HDMI, Displayport, or DVI-D. Because it's a digital signal. No one said anything in this little discussion so far about the video having to be 15khz. Many /vr/ games ran in 31khz, notably PC and arcade games.

You could even do digital 15khz under some exotic conditions (certain handheld devices come to mind). Lag could be an issue, but again no one brought up lag so far.

>>5776296
>>5776308
I got news for you bub. Those cards are over half a decade old. And good luck with 240p on a 900 series. That isn't happening.

>>5777403
>And good luck with 240p on a 900 series. >That isn't happening.
It has literally been done by several people on the internet. Here is one example with a 970
https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comments/4y894w/vga_rgb_cable_240p_output_resolution_to_pvm/
Sometimes you need to do EDID manipulation, sometimes you don't.

>get rgb modded n64
>just use component cables from retrofaggots
>sharp snes and n64 image on trinitron without spending 300$

RGB modded every console I have except for the 3DO and the NES/Famicom.
I prefer RGB/Component for every console I have except for the NES/Famicom (where I prefer Composite's colours) while I am still waiting for a good RGB mod for the 3DO.

I have a ton of HD Retrovision cables for my retro consoles and playing them in DVD quality is a sight to behold.
N64 with de-blur on is especially amazing.

I also have a PS3 with Component cables for watching DVDs of older content, mostly vintage anime.

>>5778989
You know it does s video (soul video) right out of the box
>With $30 cable

>>5779395
>RGB modded every console I have except for the only ones that don't come with RGB

>>5779395
go back

>>5780329
I RGB-modded my N64 and my PC Engine SuperGrafx but not my NES, Famicom and 3DO.

>>5766719
>europe

>>5780681
Enjoy paying more to be able to display it.

>>5780661
You understand most N64s and all SuperGrafx come with RGB, right?

>>5781631
No N64s came with RGB support

>>5767516
>pixel blending effect the devs intended
They never intended this you subhuman.

>>5766689
>An RGB modded consumer set looks way better than a PVMeme
Maybe if you're colour blind.

>>5770692
>Analog
Analog is trash.
Digital 240p should be the endgame.

As soon as we get 8K MicroLED displays with high as fuck brightness(10000+ nits) and combine them with ULMB/Strobing + Shaders CRT and Analog is fucking toast.

>>5776446
>exotic conditions
HDMI literally supports 15khz.
The only thing is having a CRT that supports HDMI at that rate.

8K MicroLED with high as fuck brightness can't come soon enough.

>>5782779
>>5782784
Oh you're here now too? Just grrreat. Enjoying that pipedream of yours?

>>5782786
Shut your ass you low-end hipster.
That shit will be reality very soon. I give it 5-10 years at most.

And yes we will be able to use actual hardware with it. There will be OSSC-like devices with support for shaders that interface with consoles(though you'll have to mod your consoles to output 240p through HDMI for best results of course)

>>5782803
>That shit will be reality very soon
>I give it 5-10 years at most
ok this is epic

>>5782803
The TVs will just have shaders built in by 10 years from now.

>>5782784
15khz HDMI would be "exotic conditions"

>>5781636
>RGB support
What are you even trying to say? No N64s came with RGB doobrywhatsit either. But a lot of them came with a VDC that outputs RGB.

>>5782779
Ah ah ah...
Unless we find a way for those old-school active shutter 3D glasses and light guns to work on CRT.
We're far from the Endgame.

>>5766843
never got his service but he makes youtube videos shitting on other people's work and from what i can see, he does good work:
https://voultar.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=60_61&product_id=56

$75 + cost of kit

there is a massive leap in cost and effort to go from s-video to rgb. for most consoles in NA (who really cares about any other region). That being said, if I had a good rgb display, then i would start modding my consoles. Until then s-video is fine.

>>5782748
> every person playing this game in the united states will run it on a NTSC tv
> putting certain colors side by side lets you approximate different colors you otherwise couldn't do on a genesis
> let's not take advantage of this

>>5783460

>>5783704
Most light gun games only work on CRTs because of how their build

>>5783818
But how do you find a way to get them to work on CRT?

>>5783982
Light guns are really just pointers. Like with a touchscreen it registers where on the screen is being aimed at. The reason it only (usually) works with CRTs is because it uses a certain method of scanning the screen with a certain component ONLY CRTs use.

>>5784135
>being this retarded
But how do we find a way for those old-school active shutter 3D glasses and light guns to work on CRT?

>>5783409
>a lot of them came with a VDC that outputs RGB.
Which can't be used without a mod. N64s didn't "come with RGB".

>>5784190
>N64s didn't "come with RGB"
But they did. How else would tards like you get RGB out of one with a just few wires and maybe an amp?

>>5766184
>only a problem with flawed video systems of most Sega consoles
Wrong, SNES games used technique too, specially Kirby.

>Then why did they bother making it available for almost every console?
SCART was supported by Japanese and European TVs. SCART can be RGB, but can also NOT be. The cable kind of look like, that's it.

>And? I don't see everyone trying to relive 56k modems so why go for inferior cables?
not a point.

>Plenty of arcade games, which were RGB direct to the guns, use stipple/dithering, and those developers clearly weren't designing around composite.
Literally wrong, proof here: https://youtu.be/kILeyo1iv0A?t=84

>>5784548
>Wrong, SNES games used technique too, specially Kirby.
Prove it.

>>5784548
>Then why did they bother making it available for almost every console?
>SCART was supported by Japanese and European TVs. SCART can be RGB, but can also NOT be. The cable kind of look like, that's it.
Every console that can use scart, can also use RGB, you can easily notice the difference in quality on TV

>the Lion King dev
everytiem, like I said, mostly just Sega consoles

>>5784562
>difference in quality on TV
Subjective.

>everytiem, like I said, mostly just Sega consoles
Yeah anon, let's take your word, it seems to be a much more trustable source.

>>5784586
>some shitty american dev
>trustable

>>5784838
wow
just wow

>>5784896
Crinfe.

>>5784914
>crinfe

>>5784896
>americans get cucked out of scart because of RCA knowing what's better for them.
>have to build their games around composhit/RF

>>5784308
>How else would tards like you get RGB out of one with a just few wires and maybe an amp?
Yeah that's a "mod" short for "modification". Thanks for playing.

>>5784929
>>crinfe

>>5785218
It's a mod. but not an RGB mod. Sort of like when I plug an N64 into the mains I'm not "power modding it to play N64 games"

>>5784914
Crinfefe

>>5784586
That's not RGB from a stock SNES. RGB on early SNES consoles is purposefully blurry to account for situations like these. when the pseudo 512x224 semi-transparency is used.

>>5785568
So is that a hardware problem? Like the anon said? It's not. Obviously. The transparency effect is a valid technique.

>>5785575
OP is stupid because he mentions "flawed video systems" which means jack shit, if anything, the Genesis/MD has the clearest RGB. I was only adding to the knowledge by pointing out RGB on SNES doesn't resolve in the image you posted. Why are you being a prick?

>>5785582
Agreed. I didn't know that, that's very cool info.

>>5785582
>Why are you being a prick?
I thought you were the OP.

>>5783469
I've owned two JVC 14" televisions that supported component and s-video. I have run the same game on each of them side by side at the same time and displayed the same exact image.

From more than 3' away the difference between them was indistinguishable.

>>5775036
>No modern GPU is outputting 240p let alone rgb, bub.
That is a lie.

>>5785582
>Genesis/MD
>clearest RGB
If by "clearest" you mean washed out and full of jailbars, sure. The Saturn, Dreamcast, PS1, and PS2 all have much better stock RGB output.

>>5785575
It's not a hardware "problem". It's a hardware "feature". And it can be turned off. An absoloute must if your playing on daddys "widescreen"